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CLIENT: I realized walking over here that I basically hadn't eaten anything today and, of course, started to get really hungry as I was walking over here; first because I had to do lab work and so I had to be fasting for that and then I got back and had some scones. [00:01:07] I'm reading Beowulf with my eighth grader so I'm really excited about that. I'm spending way too much time thinking about it. (laughs) It's kind of the perfect thing to spend way too much time on, like something I used to know kind of a lot about and something that I really, really like, but don't know a lot about now. I, unfortunately, lost all of my notes of it. I read it with my tenth graders when I was working, but I didn't keep very good notes on that section. I don't have my undergraduate notes. Maybe I do; I should recheck. [00:02:06] It's exactly times like this that all of the lugging around notebooks from year to year becomes worthwhile, although that does mean I have to reread my notes on things; which I don't like rereading what I thought about something five years ago or ten years ago.

THERAPIST: You don't?

CLIENT: I don't. I stopped writing in books about five or six years ago because I realized that you know some teachers will really encourage you to make marginal notes and I had one high school teacher who mandated it and would check our books to see if you were note taking. I just hate it now. I can't stand reading my opinions or anybody else's. [00:03:05] (pause) Just like that I ran out of things to say about Beowulf. (pause) [00:04:28] I guess I sort of feel like we're having an ongoing conversation that lasts from day to day, but I don't have a way into it or like I sort of want to pick it up again and then I'm sort of scared to. I also don't quite feel like I have anything to say or, at least, not anything that I didn't say yesterday. [00:05:01] (long pause) I'm less nervous than I was yesterday, although as I'm sitting here I'm becoming more nervous it feels like. [00:06:10] I talked with Amanda for a long time this afternoon. She's on her way to meet the church she works for. A lot of the churches in Texas have a yearly retreat. It's like a retreat center for the Diocese of Texas. She has to lead the youth section of that because everybody in the church...

THERAPIST: She's in charge of the kids?

CLIENT: Yeah. Theoretically, she's in charge of the sixththrough twelfth-graders. Another woman is in charge of nursery through sixth and also the adults. I'm not really sure how that works. She said it works out okay. [00:07:16] I sort of want to say it's typical Amanda, but really it's typical of everyone in my family. She's like, "Yeah, I'm doing okay, but I'm a little anxious because there are two major presentations that I'm in charge of that only exist in my head so far. We'll figure it out." (laughs) She'll be fine. So we talked through those. She kind of asked me how I was doing and I said I was doing okay. I said "That's sort of a lie. I'm not really doing very well. How are you doing?" And then we just talked about her stuff and that actually was really good. I don't know. [00:08:09]

She talked about having a couple of kids in fifththrough seventh-grade range who, whenever they're asked to come up with a story or tell a story, always talk about death and horrible things. I was like, "Oh, my sixth-graders do exactly the same thing." (laughs) That was a little bit of a relief for both of us. Maybe they just need to talk about death. Probably we should just let them do that. It was kind of adorable, actually. They're really sweet. I really like these kids. [00:09:06] (pause)

I took the practice test for the Teacher licensure in English; I passed, so that's good.

THERAPIST: That's good. Yeah.

CLIENT: I didn't get 100, but I passed. Considering you're supposed to have a Master's in education before you take it, I feel pretty okay with that.

THERAPIST: Could you take it without one?

CLIENT: I could take it and get what's called a preliminary license, which would basically mean I have a Bachelors in the subject area and passed the test. In English I would not have an easy time getting a job, but it might be worth doing anyway. [00:10:16]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I don't know. I need to find somebody who took it that's in the area.

THERAPIST: This reminds me, actually, we talked about it a little bit at the beginning, I wonder if we'd be able to switch on Thursdays from 12:45 to 5:15?

CLIENT: Yeah, I can do that.

THERAPIST: Is that okay?

CLIENT: Yeah, like as a permanent thing?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, that would be good.

THERAPIST: Is that better?

CLIENT: That's actually better.

THERAPIST: That's what I thought.

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you. (pause) [00:11:21] Yeah, I mean one of the things that is kind of a worry for me is finding a way to both be employed and continue seeing you, so that's very helpful. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, we can look at the schedule and if there's a way I'll do whatever I can. [00:12:10]

CLIENT: I don't exactly know what I'm supposed to be doing right now. Part of me thinks I need to wait to hear back from jobs that I've applied to and part of me thinks that I need to write them off and start looking for other things. I get caught up in this idea of, "Well, I'm doing better. Why do I still not have a job?" and then I think hard enough about that and it kind of makes my doing better sort of indistinguishable from not doing well at all. (laughs) I don't know. [00:13:10] I'm really tired of feeling like I'm crippled by this. (long pause) [00:14:41] But I also am sort of floundering around. (long pause) [00:16:00] Hubble (sp?) called me the other day to tell me I probably have told you that James was captain of the swim team at college? Apparently they have a very large portrait of him hanging at the school. (laughs) He texted me a picture of the picture. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Grades high and everything. It's not that big, but it's definitely like life-sized.(laughs) I told James this and he was like, "Humph. Well that's something." (both laugh) Yeah, it's very sweet. There is apparently a lot of oral history there of people telling a lot of stories about him. [00:17:03] And then it's like he's not the only person that isn't there that they tell a lot of stories about. I don't know. It's a nice thing. (pause)

THERAPIST: It seems like you're struggling a lot with what to talk about here.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't really know.

THERAPIST: I have the impression that you feel like you want to find your way into some of the things we've been talking about lately, but are also pretty scared about it. [00:18:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, that's about right. I just don't know what to say.

THERAPIST: And that just makes you feel worse.

CLIENT: I started out the day pretty badly and am kind of doing a little better now and would really like to continue to not want to die. I get more done that way. (chuckles) It's just getting harder and harder to get up in the morning. [00:19:11] (pause) Just having to go back to my life is not easy. For the last two days I've (laughs) literally come back from therapy, sat down to write about it, and just fallen asleep in my chair. (laughs) [00:20:07] It's like, "I have to go take a nap now." (laughing) Like four hours ago, I have to go take a nap. I'm sleeping like ten hours a night anyway so... (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, you'd rather be taking a nap or going to get something to eat or talking about me with Amanda or telling stories about James, who's not here anymore. (laughs)

CLIENT: But they're good stories. (laughs)

THERAPIST: No, I'm not even saying you shouldn't do any of these things; it just that there seems to be a trend. [00:21:12]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess you aren't saying I shouldn't do those things. I just put that part in myself. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It feels like I am, yeah. (pause) It feels like that would be horrifying and [...] (inaudible at [0:21:54] for me to be disappointed if you [...]. [00:22:03]

CLIENT: (laughing) I'm not going to do that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It sort of reminded me that we had dinner with Franco on Tuesday and I mentioned that I had therapy at 7:45 in the morning and he was like, "That's way too early for feelings." (both laugh) I was like, "Yeah, kind of." I don't know. I sort of feel like you're bringing up these possibilities that are like well outside the realm of what actually might happen and I'm not sure why. Like I'm not going to take a nap here. We both know I'm not going to. [00:23:12]

THERAPIST: My point was that I'm not sure if I was unclear or if there's a reason you're taking it in a way that I hadn't meant it; but my point was that you imagined I would be sort of horrified, angry or disappointed if that was what you wanted to do. It seems to me that you're setting or feeling this conflict, in a way. You remember only on the way here that you haven't eaten all day or are hungry. [00:24:35]

CLIENT: Let me say that's not really very unusual for me at all. (laughs) I forget to eat and then I only notice that when I get moving.

THERAPIST: I see. Okay. I assumed it was in relation to coming here, but it often happens when you're getting moving to do anything you might be getting ready to do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. It seemed to me you were saying, "I want to be somewhere else or at least talking about things other than me." It seems to me you were feeling yourself and also giving to me a little bit this sort of pressure to do otherwise; you should be here; you should be talking about yourself; you should be jumping into these very difficult, scary things. And if you're not doing that, then I'm going to have a pretty negative reaction of one sort. That seemed to me to be the way that things were kind of...

CLIENT: No, that's fair. I guess I'm trying to dodge here, but no, that's about right.

THERAPIST: One piece in that that seems important to me is that you have this idea that I have this agenda for what you should be doing, and it's a particular one. [00:26:10] I'm on the side of working hard at something excruciating, even if you really don't want to, don't feel like it whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I'm not sure why I think that. (pause)

THERAPIST: I was also wondering when I tried to make the point about it as though I would have some negative reaction if you took a nap and you were like, "We both know I'm not going to take a nap." It seemed like you maybe made use of what I was saying to cast me in a similarly demanding light; like, "Now you're telling me to take a nap here?" [00:27:25] That's really in a way just as excruciating as jumping into the stuff. "I'm going to relax and not do anything? I'm going to sit here in front of you and take a nap? Now you're really making it just impossible for me." That does seem maybe like actually making it into something quite similar a way in which I'm similarly making your life difficult. (chuckles) [00:28:01]

CLIENT: This isn't actually answering you, but one thing that comes to mind is that I sort of don't feel like I'm getting anywhere with anything else in my life right now, so it sort of feels good to feel like I'm getting somewhere here.

THERAPIST: Well that's good.

CLIENT: I have to work harder. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I see. But there you're describing a part of this really coming from you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, in a way, that actually is satisfying.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:00] (pause) Something that helps me justify myself a little bit. I guess I feel like I'm still highly suspicious of the idea that you don't have an agenda. (laughs) Actually, when I put it that way, I think I can say that I just don't believe you at all. (laughs) [00:30:03] (pause)

THERAPIST: What is it? I would say that I have an agenda. There are certain things that I'm sort of paying attention to or trying to bring out our talk about or ways of approaching things. I guess, in essence I'm saying I have an agenda for me; but I'm imagining you're saying that I also have an agenda for you. [00:31:19]

CLIENT: I don't know. I think I would more say that for you to have an agenda for you requires my participation in that; so in some ways it can't not be an agenda for me as well. (pause) (laughs) I'm laughing because I think, "What is this agenda?" and then I'm immediately like, "What does Wikipedia say?" (both laugh) [00:32:09] (pause) I mean as I sort of see it, I understand it. Part of the idea is to (pause) look at the ways that I relate to you as sort of paradigmatic of the ways that I have relationships in general or the ways that I approach the world and to try to yeah, I don't know [what you do after that.] (ph?) (laughs) [00:33:27] (long pause) [00:34:17] I keep thinking about something you said pretty early on. I think I asked what would happen if I would just lie to you and you said that you didn't think that, in some ways, there is such a thing as a lie because everything has something true about it or tells you something. Did you say that or am I just completely ascribing that to you? a thing as a lie because everything has something true about it or tells you something. Did you say that or am I just completely ascribing that to you? [00:34:45]

THERAPIST: I think and could imagine saying something along the lines of [...] (inaudible at 00:34:59) and what you lied about. That would probably communicate something that's important. I certainly would have no way of knowing that that was a lie.

CLIENT: Maybe it wasn't about lying. Maybe I just made that up. It was something about irrelevant things also communicating things. (pause) [00:36:18]

THERAPIST: I guess I imagine that you have the thoughts that my agenda is, "I'm saying whatever comes to mind and sort of, in a way, doing what you want," but really I want you to be working hard. Really I want you to be reflecting and thinking about things sort of thoughtfully and introspectively. Really I want you to be talking about painful stuff because that's really what's important. I imagine you might think of my agenda kind of along those lines.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think at this point I'm sort of splitting into part of me is trying to articulate or say something about the difference between that in some ways this is like a very unstructured environment and in other ways it is quite structured; and that what you're doing is like I was serious when I said that showing up and see what happens is a pretty good plan, that that seems to me to be sort of what you're doing. [00:37:36] So part of me is on this kind of cognitive train and then part of me is thinking that really you just want me to be working hard and talking about painful things, some combination of that's what's important and that's what is interesting for you. (pause) It's a lot easier and more fun to talk about the [problem stuff] (ph?); maybe not easier, but clearly I'm not [...] (inaudible at 00:38:25), more fun anyway. [00:38:32] (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess, to me, it seems like those are two different ways you have of managing uncertainty, anxiety and the pain in relationships with people, one of which sometimes can cover a bit for the first way, is talking about things in a conceptual way and sometimes in another way. [00:39:34]

CLIENT: Can you expand on that?

THERAPIST: Sure. There is an aspect of putting it out there as it's work and what are we doing here and how do we think about it? I guess sort of cerebral. That's not bad, but I think there have been times where that's an arena that is good. It can be safer if you're up in your head.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) Definitely. There's a reason I went to grad school.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying part of the function of that can be to manage uncertainty and anxiety and sort of be in here or in other relationships in a way that you're good at; and it makes sense and can be reassuring. [00:40:39]

CLIENT: No, I think you're absolutely right.

THERAPIST: And then I think there's another mode which sort of I call it the teacher-student mode seems to involve you're going to continue to work hard you're going to dig deep. You're going to be thoughtful and sort of look, I think, closely and carefully at what the teacher seems to want and kind of fit in with that, in a way. [00:41:17] I think that may relate that's the other thing my agenda basically involves you doing those things and that's another way where, even if it can be painful for you, even if it's hard work, at least you know what the hell kind of relationship you're in and what's going on and how you can make it work.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm pretty comfortable saying, "Yes, this is what I do," about the kind of cerebral side of things and really uncomfortable saying, "Yes, this is what I do," when you talk about the teacher-student relationship, even if you're, again, absolutely right. [00:42:17]

THERAPIST: I wonder if you worry there about being sort of seductive, in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think there might be that. (laughs) No. Yes. Yeah, you're right; I do.

THERAPIST: And potentially and frighteningly in a sort of [image and like a sexual way,] (ph?) but I think also in other ways as well.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:43:28]

THERAPIST: I was going to say I guess to put it more directly that you sort of feel guilty and certainly anxious that I'm pointing at something in a way that, I think, feels to you like I'm saying, "And you are working to seduce me in this way here."

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I'm afraid of that. I'm afraid of being that way and I'm afraid of you perceiving it being that way.

THERAPIST: "I'm going to be mad," or "I'm going to feel tricked," or "I'm going to [...] (inaudible at 00:44:27)." We should stop and because of the weekend, I do want to check in about how anxious you're feeling like without walking out the door.

CLIENT: I'll be okay. I'm doing okay and I'll call you if I need to; but I don't think I will.

END TRANSCRIPT

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Abstract / Summary: Client is having a hard time coming up with material to discuss in this session. She worries that the therapist will perceive her as deceitful and seductive.
Field of Interest: Counseling & Therapy
Publisher: Alexander Street Press
Content Type: Session transcript
Format: Text
Original Publication Date: 2013
Page Count: 1
Page Range: 1-1
Publication Year: 2013
Publisher: Alexander Street
Place Published / Released: Alexandria, VA
Subject: Counseling & Therapy; Psychology & Counseling; Health Sciences; Theoretical Approaches to Counseling; Psychological issues; Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento; Client-counselor relations; Therapeutic process; Occupations; Psychoanalytic Psychology; Psychotherapy
Clinician: Anonymous
Keywords and Translated Subjects: Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento
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