TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: I just in two minutes figured out how I want to teach Beowulf. I may be a little bit distracted. I don't know, I find teaching poetry much harder than teaching novels or stories. Yeah, Beowulf (inaudible).
THERAPIST: Did I mention I'm going to be out for a couple of days in a couple of weeks?
CLIENT: No, you didn't.
THERAPIST: Okay. I'm going to be out for a couple of days in a couple of weeks. Yes. Part of Wednesday but not (unclear) I think. And then I will be out Thursday and Friday, I think it's May 2nd and 3rd and then back on Monday. And I will also be (unclear) and possibly covering for that.
CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. So I feel like I spent all day thinking about working on reading stuff about the tutoring thing and I haven't gotten anywhere except thinking of how I want to teach Beowulf.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: A couple of kids are taking SATs in June so I'm trying to figure that out. I'm feeling like I'm not really qualified to do this and I can't do it and they should hire somebody else and then that just gets in the way of dealing with actual problems.
THERAPIST: I have a practical thought, which I think got me into trouble last time.
CLIENT: (Laughs)
THERAPIST: I'll throw it out there anyway.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I wonder if you could find like a kind of, from a clinical (unclear) a supervisor, somebody that you could meet with (unclear) to talk about your unclear) and get suggestions for having to teach that. And I would see that as like having a two-fold purpose: 1 to help you learn to be more confident, and the other is hopefully, that person would refer to you if they had people that they couldn't see or couldn't afford them.
CLIENT: That's a really good idea. Thanks.
THERAPIST: Sure. [00:03:33]
CLIENT: Yeah, I mean part of the things that have been challenging for me about this tutoring is not having the head of the department to just talk to if I don't know how to deal with a problem.
THERAPIST: I should probably (unclear) quickly which is I do not at all mean to say by that that I think you need it. I think you're qualified and can do it without backup.
CLIENT: Yeah, I know.
THERAPIST: That's not what I meant. I'm responding to how you're describing what you feel. I know it's not just about practical issues (unclear). [00:04:18]
CLIENT: No. I know. I know. Thanks.
THERAPIST: Not always entirely against practical.
CLIENT: (Laughs)
THERAPIST: (inaudible)
CLIENT: Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, you know if feel like I can talk to my boss of this one tutoring agency and just maybe ask her to check in with me and also (inaudible)
THERAPIST: Sure.
(Pause): [00:05:03 00:05:20]
CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I think it would be okay if one of or the one who used to to pertain to literature again which I'm pretty sure I got an A on under. Like I know I can do this.
THERAPIST: Good.
CLIENT: But at the same time, like knowing the answers isn't exactly the same as like (unclear) but it's (laughs).
(Pause): [00:05:51 00:06:01]
CLIENT: I also feel like I've just gotten mentally lazy in the last couple of months (unclear) like it's harder for me to sit down and do a day's work. I'm trying very hard to like observe that and then not beat myself up about it and well, you know, the thing to do is just sit down tomorrow and do it again, right? You'll get better at it.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You've done this before. But (laughs) I have gone to the library in the last couple of days, which has to be a good thing, leaving the apartment. I feel like I should get a whole bunch of bonus points for that. (Laughs)
THERAPIST: (Laughs)
CLIENT: You know, since my life is scored. (Chuckles)
(Pause): [00:07:04 00:07:21]
CLIENT: I think the SATs are harder for me because just thinking about it is harder for me because the stakes are really high for the student.
THERAPIST: It's not one paper grade that's 5% of your grade but it's (inaudible).
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Pause): `[00:07:55 -[00:08:27]
CLIENT: Yeah, I'm trying to decide whether me and this girl that I'm teaching study skills, you know she says that she feels very confident of her (unclear) section and to worry about the math section. And I, you know, the dad wants for me would prefer for me to be the person and I don't know whether to say, 'look you really need to find somebody else for this.'
(Pause): [00:08:56 00:09:16]
CLIENT: I need someone (inaudible).
(Pause): [00:09:16 00:09:55]
CLIENT: You see, the problem with like knowing and recognizing that most of the time when I feel horrible about hiding from something is that that just makes me feel worse. It's hard not to take as one more thing to beat myself up with. I'm actually doing pretty well today and, you know, I guess this is doing pretty well.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. What were you going to say?
THERAPIST: I was going to say, "Thanks for that, Chad."
CLIENT: (Laughs) Yes.
THERAPIST: (Laughs)
CLIENT: You know 'yea! Self awareness?' (Laughs)
THERAPIST: (Laughs)
CLIENT: James's going to go back to Ohio for a couple of weeks and finish up some lab work. I guess his advisor just suggested it to him today and he's theoretically thinking about it, but I think it's the right thing to do as opposed to getting (inaudible). That would just be a pain in the ass. He could, you stay here and do lab work but he like -
THERAPIST: Go through some kind of -
CLIENT: Yeah. I don't think any of his collaborators are here now and so like (unclear) and his training and he doesn't know where anything is. Yeah. All of that, plus you know, it would be nice for him to be able to his advisor (inaudible). I don't think Kevin is James's undergraduate advisor who is just a wonderful, wonderful person for him, you know, because he would just talk with him for long, long periods of time (unclear) like forming students as his job. He is very much a philosopher but that'll be great that way. He has really great teaching skills. I was really jealous at school so James and Franco and I were a really close group and we all were pretty disenchanted with the college experience. And both James and Franco ended up finding these just terrific mentors who just really took care of them. I've never found anybody like that.
(Pause): [00:13:32 00:13:40]
CLIENT: Then I did and he fell in love with me. So, that was great. (Laughs) That isn't where I thought that was going. Yeah, not at all.
(Pause): [00:13:59 00:14:27]
CLIENT: I'm sorry about the stage with everything where that like three or four different things that I'm working on at the same time and that kind of initial stage in all of them but I can't focus on any one of them long enough to get to completion, so I just feel bad about myself at the end of the day because I don't have anything to show for any of it even though I've actually like gotten stuff done, put work in all of them.
(Pause): [00:14:54 00:15:09]
CLIENT: I'm also spending way too much time on preparing for these tutoring classes, like for what I'm getting paid I'm spending way too much time on it. I guess I'm just doing it for the good of my soul.
(Pause): [00:15:30 00:15:59]
THERAPIST: A lot of what you're describing sounds to me like people not really being there for you in ways they should be. I mean, among other things.
CLIENT: I'm laughing because my initial thought was, 'yeah, but I was trying not to think of it that way.' (Laughs)
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: (Laugh) Sorry.
THERAPIST: Yes.
CLIENT: Yes.
(Pause): [00:16:40 00:16:45]
THERAPIST: You were trying not to think of it like you're trying to think of it more positively, you mean?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: What you're describing?
CLIENT: Yeah, I feel like I spend a lot of time being upset or feeling like people have not been there for me in ways that they should be and I -
(Pause): [00:17:12 00:17:31]
CLIENT: I'm trying to get out of that. I feel like I was going to people for the wrong things and not for the right things. I don't know. (inaudible) to say.
(Pause): [00:17:57 00:18:07]
CLIENT: Maybe it's just thinking about that makes me sad and I'm not feeling sad today so I'm just not going to think about that.
(Pause): [00:18:15 00:18:33]
CLIENT: (Unclear) you would think I'm why I'm not feeling sad (unclear) think about it and then maybe it wouldn't be so overwhelming.
THERAPIST: Even though that's something (unclear), I believe you're sort of just finding what that would be and that is just a sort of probably strange feeling combination of ways in which I really am there and ways in which I'm really not. And ways in which are really (inaudible). [00:19:04]
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Pause): [00:19:04 00:19:18]
CLIENT: (Unclear) hope in (unclear) and that's very scary.
(Pause): [00:19:26 00:19:37]
CLIENT: Yeah, like there's a second part to that but I don't have the (inaudible).
(Pause): [00:19:40 00:19:53]
CLIENT: (Laughs) I was going to say, 'I feel like I'm all relaxed today.' And then you brought up like our relationship and then that went away. (Laughs)
(Pause): [00:20:11 00:20:15]
THERAPIST: But you have (chuckles) before you said, "I've actually been feeling more relaxed."
CLIENT: Yeah, as opposed to other days when I come in and don't feel like I have a whole lot to say and -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Feel like I've done something really wrong.
THERAPIST: Un huh [yes].
CLIENT: Comparatively speaking.
THERAPIST: Yes.
(Pause): [00:20:40 00:21:10]
CLIENT: I guess I really just shut down that topic, huh?
(Pause): [00:21:14 00:21:41]
THERAPIST: It didn't feel so much to me. What I had in mind was that you said a few times that you're like doing some work to stay afloat today, you know, and feeling pretty all right about not feeling sad and not feeling as anxious here and that a couple of the things I said pointing me back towards the more upsetting stuff and (unclear) not completely interested in continuing to do that but you're telling me that you're making an effort not to think about it and -
CLIENT: Okay. Okay.
(Pause): [00:22:44 00:22:56]
CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I am (unclear) unsurprisingly. (Laughs) I sort of think but that's my (unclear) when I'm here. (Laughs)
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: It's kind of hard.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: What I'm doing.
THERAPIST: Yes you are and I think sometimes it feels like it's mine.
CLIENT: Yeah, it does.
(Pause): [00:23:14 00:23:23]
THERAPIST: I guess what I'm saying is I don't really see it that way for either of us.
CLIENT: Okay. I mean, I guess rationally, my sense is that you try to bring up things that are important and sometimes those are the hard things often, those are the hard things but you don't bring them up because they're hard. I'm not sure that I make that distinction very well, though.
THERAPIST: Sure.
(Pause): [00:23:55 00:24:20]
CLIENT: People always tell me that I won't (unclear) you know, I'll feel better when the weather warms up. You know they use the seasonal thing and I get really angry at them. (Laughs) But you know like, the spring is really nice.
THERAPIST: (Cross talk) It's so nice to exercise. If you get some exercise (unclear). [00:24:41]
CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs)
THERAPIST: I hear you.
CLIENT: Yeah. And then it gets warm, yeah, that's really nice. I do feel better. (Laughs)
(Pause): [00:25:10 00:25:36]
CLIENT: I sort of have this idea that if I can just get a job that I can do and do well and that is good for me, then everything will be better. (Unclear) I feel like, 'well yes and no.' Like some things aren't really helped by it and some things, 'well, no, I'm still myself (unclear).'
(Pause): [00:26:02 00:26:12]
CLIENT: And the more I think, the more anxious I am about it.
(Pause): [00:26:13 00:26:47]
CLIENT: In looking for a job also I feel like I just have a hard time focusing like focusing on one aspect until I get anxious about it and then I stop and do something else and the result of it is that I don't really get anywhere.
(Pause): [00:27:16 00:27:33]
CLIENT: Trying to feel good about the work that I am doing rather than ashamed that it's not going better and I'm not doing more. It's, you know, challenging.
(Pause): [00:27:45 00:28:02]
CLIENT: I ran into, I think I told you this that I ran into people from my department. No I told James about it. Sorry. The other person I told. Sorry. (Laughs) I was like this this is why you can't leave the house in sweats. (Laughs)
THERAPIST: (Laughs)
CLIENT: I live so close to campus and -
THERAPIST: Well the sweats are like (unclear).
CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs) I wasn't wearing (unclear). But I ran into two people from my department and I'm like wanted to speak to the one and walked to the library and talked to one and pretended I didn't see the other. (Unclear) I really like.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: He says to me, 'well, what are you up to now?' What do I say to that?
(Pause): [00:29:20 00:29:53]
CLIENT: I still don't know why we live here. I mean, rightly or wrongly, I never blamed ECT for this. The whole reasoning process the surface is gone. The whole point was to live close to campus and I live really close to campus. I don't go here anymore and as a matter of fact I don't really want to be here.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know, sometimes I walk like 15 minutes out of my way on a 10-minute walk to get to the library without walking right through campus.
(Pause): [00:30:43 00:30:48]
CLIENT: I feel like there are a lot of things like that today. Like, why are you done with the (unclear)? I don't remember the reasoning.
(Pause): [00:30:54 00:31:09]
THERAPIST: That was before the ECT?
CLIENT: Yeah. But it was in the next six months before they give you (unclear).
THERAPIST: Oh, I see. I understand now.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: You're referring to pretending not to be seen.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah, I wasn't sure what you meant. I thought you meant that it was because your reasoning was shot from ECT but (cross talk).
CLIENT: Oh no, no I meant -
THERAPIST: that, which actually makes sense or why that was that you forgot what the thinking was (inaudible) ECT.
CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible) [00:31:59] Here I am.
(Pause): [00:32:14 00:32:36]
CLIENT: I've heard people talk about it like, "a fresh start" in whatever context that sounds like a really good thing. I'm not sure that's exactly what this is.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
(Pause): [00:32:44 00:33:07]
CLIENT: I feel like the longer I'm talking, the more I'm getting sad.
THERAPIST: (inaudible)
CLIENT: I don't know -
(Pause): [00:33:20 00:33:35]
CLIENT: Then I get so when I'm at school I think very, very hard about whatever class I'm in, whatever, talking (unclear) so I don't think about anything else. (inaudible). I'm not thinking about (unclear). I have one in my mind longer.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: It's not good for me.
THERAPIST: I see you also like you're pretty actively, I think, trying to keep yourself out of contact with some things that are (inaudible). You avoid it by pretending and I think -
(Pause): [00:34:31 00:34:51]
THERAPIST: I don't know. I wonder if in the same way that it can be (unclear) to (unclear) than to go through talking about your whole thing and then something like cruelty either of you towards yourself or me towards you there's some sense of like benignness that goes along with like, 'I'm talking about difficult things." I'm getting confused. (inaudible).
CLIENT: Okay.
(Pause): [00:35:28 00:35:38]
CLIENT: Yeah, I know. I (inaudible).
THERAPIST: Yeah.
(Pause): [00:35:43 00:35:56]
CLIENT: It doesn't feel active. Like it doesn't feel like I'm actively trying to avoid things.
(Pause): [00:36:03 00:36:18]
CLIENT: It's more like I can really tell when I'm doing it. Like I get this and I know this isn't really what you meant, but it's not incompatible with what you meant, rather, but that like I can really see it but that doesn't mean that I'm like really choosing to do it.
THERAPIST: I see, like you don't know what neighborhood you're driving through but you've actually unfastened your seatbelt.
CLIENT: Yeah. Sounds good.
(Pause): [00:36:45 00:37:37]
CLIENT: I may have two (unclear) for today.
THERAPIST: Um hmm [yes].
CLIENT: The problem with all that is like to get them done is great but one, two, and three, take way longer than you expected them to (inaudible).
(Pause): [00:37:51 [00:37:55]
CLIENT: It's on the computer. I can just delete it. It'll be okay.
(Pause): [00:37:56 00:38:10]
THERAPIST: I think there's a question about what's making you sad really (inaudible).
CLIENT: I kind of (unclear) around it.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: (Laughs). I don't know.
(Pause): [00:38:22 00:38:36]
CLIENT: I think it's the difference between focusing on plans to get myself out of the situation I'm in and thinking about the situation I'm in. You know, so I felt good like what do for tutoring, or what do I do for job searching?
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Pause): [00:38:58 00:39:05]
THERAPIST: Yeah, I think that it can be nice to think of those things rather than the other ones.
(Pause): [00:39:23 00:39:35]
CLIENT: Yeah. When I am thinking about where I am it has a tendency to bring me down to the extent that I can't focus on getting out of it. I can't apply for a job when I feel terrible about myself, feeling like no one should ever hire me.
(Pause): [00:39:59 00:40:54]
THERAPIST: It sounds to me sort of like you're waiting for, I'm not sure, maybe waiting for me to point back at the more negative stuff or jump in about what I think you're avoiding.
CLIENT: Yeah, sort of. I guess I'm sort of bracing for it.
THERAPIST: It's a kind of another shoe dropping, I think.
(Pause): [00:41:17 00:41:24]
THERAPIST: And I think it's complicated and I don't altogether know what to make of it but if I could (unclear) I think that absolutely there are many, many times that I've done that in a way that I know is going to be upsetting, but maybe it goes back to what you were saying before about 'it can get blurry to the extent to which it feels sort of cruel versus kind of (inaudible)' or something like that.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: (inaudible) the moment.
CLIENT: I guess it is, in some ways it's like both upsetting and reassuring because it's obviously like upsetting and hard and you're pointing at things that are hard but it's also like, I feel like there's some (unclear) you know, some between us and some with society's picture of psychotherapy, a bit like that's what you're supposed to do. Like that (unclear) is water and so there's some comfort in having a model that's followed even though it's also it feels hard.
THERAPIST: Uh huh [yes].
CLIENT: Does that make sense?
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yes, that does make sense. I guess I'm wondering about an additional element that feels like it's sort of those things which are true, they don't sort of point to how things feel for you between you and I. In other words, like (unclear) to each other and I feel like a good actor or a bad actor, not in the sense of like, performance but in the sense of like -
CLIENT: Yeah, I know "actor."
THERAPIST: Yes.
(Pause): [00:43:50 00:44:16]
CLIENT: (inaudible) like that principally, all these things are part of that feeling of waiting for the shoe to drop and (unclear) but part of it, I guess, has to do like should actually be reassuring things about it and you're feeling anxious waiting for it. Some of the reassurance is about, 'okay, now we're back in this process that's familiar and that I know.' And you say you know it as a version of like the cultural (unclear) of psychotherapy and a version of what actually happens in here.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And the other piece that I was wondering about is a version of the same thing where you're having trouble and somebody says something that hurts.
(Pause): [00:45:03 00:45:03]
CLIENT: I don't, I'm sorry. I don't quite know what you mean by the last one. Like are you saying like it's in tight and I'm not really sure -
THERAPIST: Yeah. Or that you come to someone having a hard time and you're feeling down or so critical or suicidal or whatever it is and maybe they say, 'wait until the (unclear) change,' or maybe they explain logically why it doesn't make sense for you to feel bad. Maybe they say, 'you know, what was that? Anyway, I've got to go run get a cup of coffee,' or -
CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, I understand.
(Pause): [00:46:00 00:46:08]
THERAPIST: Or maybe they say, 'well, it's worse than you think.' Or, (laughs) 'here's the part of it you don't even want to look at.'
CLIENT: Yeah.
(Pause): [00:46:19 00:46:54]
CLIENT: They don't know.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Sure.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: We should stop for now. I have a question. I'm not sure it is really (unclear) of me but I figured I'd ask you about it. Would it be (unclear) for you to meet at 4:30 instead of 5:10 Fridays?
CLIENT: I don't think so?
THERAPIST: Okay. I mean I'm aware -
CLIENT: Okay. I mean not right now, obviously.
THERAPIST: Sure. Right. Okay. (inaudible).
CLIENT: Oh (inaudible).
THERAPIST: Yeah (inaudible).
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