TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: My approach to things breaking is to see whether they fix themselves. (Chuckles) My sewing machine's broken and definitely doesn't well, I just won't use it for a while. We'll see what happens.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But now I need to actually take it to Sascha (sp?) (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:00:42 00:00:51]

CLIENT: I spent a lot of time yesterday saying no to people, so that was exciting. I'm not exactly sure why but it was like most everybody who's actually employing me right now and like two-thirds of people who are thinking about employing me in the future asked me to do something that I wasn't willing to do, so it was pretty great. (Chuckles) I find that difficult. (Pause) Can you tell me one thing?

(Pause): [00:01:45 00:01:56]

CLIENT: Yeah, I told her when I tutored for her I wasn't going to come in on Sunday as well because she had a student who couldn't make it on Saturdays. She said, 'can you come in on Sunday?' And I've done that before like an hour each way and I'm not willing to do that two days in a row for an hours' worth of work.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's exhausting though. (Chuckles) Yeah.

(Pause): [00:02:22 00:02:52]

CLIENT: I had an interview yesterday. (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: And I really liked the couple.

THERAPIST: Okay. Is this the one in (unclear)?

CLIENT: No, this is a different one. They live like right next to the square so it would be really convenient but they're only looking for like nine hours a week and the timing's probably not going to work out.

THERAPIST: Right.

(Pause): [00:03:18 00:03:49]

CLIENT: I wish it would warm up.

(Pause): [00:03:49 00:04:15]

CLIENT: Is free-associating hard for everybody or is it just me? (Pause) You're not going to answer that? That's sort of a rhetorical question thing.

(Pause): [00:04:23 00:04:31]

THERAPIST: There are inevitably ways in which it's hard for everybody to be maybe not the same thing.

(Pause): [00:04:35 00:04:42]

CLIENT: I don't know why I feel the need to tell you you're not going to answer the question. Apparently you do.

(Pause): [00:04:47 00:05:34]

CLIENT: It's nice to have people calling you back (unclear). Anyway, I'm using (unclear) the application if nothing comes back, there's sort of a feeling like, 'do I even exist?' So, (inaudible) of that.

THERAPIST: I can think of a question you just asked about why you feel the need to tell me when I'm not going to answer your question. Maybe it's preparing to feel a little bit like you don't exist in a way or what you want to know doesn't matter.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it's sort of reminding myself that if you don't answer my questions that it's not about me.

THERAPIST: Uh huh [yes].

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which I guess otherwise it very much feels like it is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:06:54 00:07:12]

THERAPIST: And it seems very much about what you want to know and how you feel not mattering. Like how hard free associating is.

(Pause): [00:07:32 00:07:44]

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:07:47 00:07:50]

CLIENT: I mean I also tell myself that that was a question that wasn't important to me anyway.

(Pause): [00:07:58 00:08:46]

CLIENT: Yeah, the important questions are the ones that are important to me I tend to sit on for several weeks at least. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Clears throat)

(Pause): [00:08:55 00:09:17]

CLIENT: Still I'm (inaudible). I try but I ran out of time. Oh well, I have time today. It'll be okay.

(Pause): [00:09:31 00:09:58]

CLIENT: If seems like it should be a much bigger deal to me than to I mean we're going to go (unclear) to Franco's. He was like, 'I don't really want to do anything. And I'm like, 'let's just like go have an evening at Franco's but with cake. Like, okay that sounds good. Franco was gone for a few days and when he got back he was sick so that pushed it back until he feels better and caught up with his mountain of work that will inevitably have Luke (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:10:37 00:11:08]

CLIENT: It's hard to have (unclear) like people don't like me (unclear). It's been really hard to keep up with people. I make myself keep up with people. I haven't talked to my roommate, Kirsten, since I moved out. Knowing her, she's probably really pissed at me, so (chuckles). I just keep not getting in touch with her.

(Pause): [00:11:54 00:12:08]

CLIENT: You know that's one of the things that's like general purpose advice for depressed people that I find really irritating and sort of want to make myself take, you know 'these are the things that make you feel better. Go socialize.' Yeah, fine. (Chuckles)

(Pause): [00:12:26 00:12:48]

THERAPIST: Well I also think sort of that it's kind of on you to reach out.

CLIENT: With Kirsten it definitely is. With other people like I have some really good friends who have reached out to me in really lovely ways in the last few months, but I feel that it's on me to get back to them.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, reciprocate.

(Pause): [00:13:45 00:14:13]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess it does feel like it's on me. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:14:11 00:14:34]

CLIENT: What do I do when I don't have a lot to say? I guess the counter to that is, 'well, you always have a lot to say.' But I don't want to always say it.

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

(Pause): [00:14:46 00:15:27]

CLIENT: Yeah, this is hard to do. I wonder why.

(Pause): [00:15:32 00:15:37]

THERAPIST: Do you think it would be any easier on the couch?

CLIENT: The thought fills me with dread and horror, but -

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It's a possibility. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Maybe not. The point really is that it's something that might be helpful in (unclear). [00:15:58]

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: I'd remembered that you didn't really didn't like the couch before. And my impression is that there's kind of a balance for you between like before and the abysmal quality of being alone like looking in some other direction (unclear) face-to-face interaction versus maybe there being some things that are easier to say when you're not looking at the person you're talking to. And I imagined that the bounds may have shifted but maybe not and that's okay. I'm not saying you should.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I find it very reassuring to be able to look at you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:17:07 00:17:22]

THERAPIST: I was only saying that I think that would be better.

CLIENT: That really shook me up, though. (Pause) And I think it's just you're suggesting something I don't really want to do but because you're suggesting it my impulse is to say, 'well, let's try it.' But I really, actually don't want to. So I feel like I can't really win because I'm either like telling you, 'no,' or doing something I don't want to.

(Pause): [00:18:10 00:18:19]

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:18:19 00:18:31]

THERAPIST: It seems you do a pretty reasonable job telling me no.

CLIENT: Thanks. I'm working on it. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: I think you're right.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

(Pause): [00:18:47 00:18:57]

THERAPIST: My impression of that is probably not so much because you think more like I would have been more impressed or thought better of you if that was something you were out there trying.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: That the reason it was hard to say no to me is because you imagined I would have thought better of you if you had been for trying.

CLIENT: Yeah. And you're suggesting something that you think ought to be helpful and maybe it would be helpful and so I sort of feel like well, if I say no to that and then continue to have a hard time with this then that's my fault now.

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:20:17 [00:20:48]

THERAPIST: I can see how that sort of (unclear).

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:20:49 00:21:04]

CLIENT: (inaudible) concentrating on not taking me back.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess also what's kind of that's included there is that -

(Pause): [00:21:18 00:21:44]

THERAPIST: I care more about whether you've taken my (unclear) suggestion but idea that matters more to me than how you're doing or whether I can make this easier.

(Pause): [00:22:18 00:22:31]

CLIENT: I don't know.

(Pause): [00:22:34 00:22:43]

CLIENT: I mean I did say what I wanted.

(Pause): [00:22:46 00:23:25]

THERAPIST: You absolutely did.

(Pause): [00:23:23 00:24:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it's a very important point.

THERAPIST: Okay.

(Pause): [00:24:05 00:24:09]

CLIENT: You know the feeling of like it's like you're circling around something you've almost got it, one minute you're going to say it but then it just disappears?

THERAPIST: Yes.

(Pause): [00:24:22 00:24:54]

CLIENT: I feel like my emotional reactions get magnified in here. Like I have about the same, you know, kind of reaction that I would have like a lot of people in my situation but it's much bigger. Much, much bigger.

(Pause): [00:25:14 00:25:25]

CLIENT: I didn't cry about telling anybody else (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:25:27 00:25:58]

CLIENT: I usually feel bad about like I feel like I rejected you in some way and then had this very intense emotional reaction like now I'm asking you to help me with that, admit that reaction and it just doesn't seem fair to me.

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:26:17 00:26:24]

THERAPIST: Maybe in the sense of it doesn't seem fair to me.

CLIENT: Yes. Right.

THERAPIST: Right.

(Pause): [00:26:26 00:26:35]

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:26:31 00:26:58]

THERAPIST: I wonder if you feel like you're rejecting me if you don't have much to say.

(Pause): [00:27:05 [00:27:16]

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm not sure.

(Pause): [00:27:18 [00:28:34]

CLIENT: It doesn't feel exactly (unclear).

(Pause): [00:28:33 00:28:48]

CLIENT: It more feels like it's deficient in some way.

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:28:49 00:30:24]

CLIENT: Yeah, like I'm not doing a good enough job.

(Pause): [00:30:21 00:30:42]

CLIENT: I guess like I'm laying myself open to you rejecting me.

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:30:44 00:31:30]

CLIENT: Yeah, sometimes it's harder when you talk now. I don't know why.

(Pause): [00:31:34 00:31:42]

CLIENT: Like there's more of a filter.

(Pause): [00:31:45 00:32:36]

CLIENT: It feels like I have a risk taking quota and I filled it. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Laughs) Uh huh [yes].

(Pause): [00:32:4100:33:47]

CLIENT: I feel bad about being (unclear) off about a very small thing. I guess (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:33:55 00:34:08]

THERAPIST: If I do the math (unclear) it seems that the thing that you (unclear) was kind of guilt, a worry, a sense of then being on your own for feeling you're rejecting me and my suggestion.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you came in talking about how it's hard to say no to people. And yesterday you were it seemed like, a little freer, instead of being critical about therapy.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: These seem to go together.

CLIENT: (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:35:29 00:35:42]

THERAPIST: I see how the things today go together plus yesterday. I guess I'm (unclear) maybe incorrectly, like saying no and rejection for today with being a bit critical.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: From yesterday. Maybe those things don't belong together. But that was the connection I was making.

THERAPIST: And (unclear) -

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: you're feeling like you filled your risk quota and don't really want to talk anymore. Which I guess (laughs) seems like it's (laughing) what you have in mind. I guess like I imagine you're worried about saying additional things that are rejecting or critical towards me and then feeling really guilty or like you are or deserve to be on your own for doing that.

(Pause): [00:37:31 00:37:41]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I don't feel like I'm in control necessary of whether what I say is critical or hurtful or not. I feel like it's hard to predict.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and that must be terribly frightening.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's a good point like the think that makes sense. And the thing today I think (cross talk) respond -

CLIENT: Came from out of nowhere.

THERAPIST: And -

(Pause): [00:38:25 00:38:38]

THERAPIST: Even with the, like the (unclear) and the way you described it, it was kind of like you were put in a corner where you had to take it up.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: People were asking things that clearly were not going to work and the feeling was like you sort of had to say no, not as though it was a choice you could have gone either way or -

CLIENT: I could have done what they wanted but I just was not willing to.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I guess like, yeah.

(Pause): [00:39:15 00:39:23]

CLIENT: A little bit like talking about the couch like I can say yes but then I'd have use the couch and that sucks and I don't like it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it's really scary for me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So like -

THERAPIST: It's a lot like the babysitting. (Unclear) you know, I want you to clean the entire house, cook dinner for my husband and do our taxes because that's really what we want you to do in addition to taking care of our quintuplets (unclear) quintuplets.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You could say yes.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But -

CLIENT: I probably would do it except for taxes. Then I'd back myself into something that I'm not happy with and is a little harder to get out of.

(Pause): [00:40:24 00:41:14]

CLIENT: (inaudible) of what is quite reasonable and -

(Pause): [00:41:19 [00:41:22]

CLIENT: It's okay to refuse them.

(Pause): [00:41:24 00:41:37]

CLIENT: Part of me (unclear) but it's okay to refuse anything you don't want to do. Like, that's how it works. You just say no to things you don't want to do. But that's a relatively new concept for me. It's not really sinking in very well.

(Pause): [00:41:51 00:42:06]

CLIENT: (inaudible)

(Pause): [00:42:09 00:42:28]

CLIENT: (inaudible)

(Pause): [00:42:29 00:42:38]

CLIENT: I mean it's just harder to say no to you than it is to say it to people I don't know.

(Pause): [00:42:43 00:43:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible) (Laughs) Then you're out of (unclear) forever. You'd think it would make it easy, but it does not, in fact. (inaudible) follow me around?

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

(Pause): [00:43:18 00:44:16]

THERAPIST: We're going to stop here.

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT