TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: Hi. I watched a truly embarrassing amount of TV in the last few days. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. I knitted a whole baby sweater yesterday from start to finish.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: I didn't want to do anything else. (LAUGHTER) So I need to figure out something to do (inaudible at 00:00:39) in the new two weeks or I'm just going to hate myself. But we'll see.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 00:00:53) So...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So next week, I guess, we're on as usual...

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:01:01]

THERAPIST: ...in the same schedule we've been on and then the following week, you start on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Which means that we won't meet on Wednesday on Thursday.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: It will be on Friday.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And if we can meet at 4:30 on Fridays, that's better for me.

CLIENT: Yeah. Good. The... Okay. She wants me to come in on Friday the 17th but I told her I would have to leave early. So that doesn't matter.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Four thirty Friday.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Actually the 17th I could do 5:15.

CLIENT: Would that be okay for you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's totally fine.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It's the following week that I'm, it would be better for me if it were earlier.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: So I start on Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. And so... (PAUSE) And then we'll be on Wednesdays or Thursdays.

CLIENT: Is that okay? I mean, I guess it doesn't really matter if it's okay. I am a little nervous about (inaudible at 00:02:41) I figure if I think too much about this job before I start, then I'll just tie myself into knots and freak out about it. So I'm just not thinking about it very much.

(PAUSE) [00:03:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:03:05) I finished season three. (PAUSE) Sometimes I'm pretty good at doing that if I'm putting things out of my mind and sometimes not so much. And I want to get a clear understanding of what I'm successful and what I'm not. But I just feel like I'm going to sabotage myself with this.

(PAUSE) [00:04:00]

CLIENT: I got an e-mail from a friend from William and Mary. He said he works in Philadelphia now (inaudible at 00:04:11) It seems like things are not easier for him than they are for me. Maybe they're a little bit easier. I don't know. But they're not easy. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah. He's having a hard time.

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: He's having a hard time.

CLIENT: Yeah. He just deals with problems very differently than I do, I think. He kind of, I think, makes a lot of... Like he jokes around a lot and appears just to not take anything very seriously. But I think he's actually really sensitive. But, anyway, his advisor resigned from the department in February...

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: ...because... I mean, he said he hasn't asked her. But it's almost certainly just because the department is so hostile.

THERAPIST: Wow. [00:05:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's a pretty fucked up place. Like that's why I didn't go there. Because the reputation is just being a culture of cruelty. And then the two seniors, they're all just retiring after this year. So next year they're not going to have anybody, like any (inaudible at 00:05:23) at all. They're got two new hire... Like they're hiring two new people. But by the time he gets to writing there will be somebody. But he doesn't know who that is. He doesn't know whether they will want to work on the same things he does.

THERAPIST: Right.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) My response was... He asked, you know, "How is your life going?" [00:06:03]

I told him... I don't know if I'm just feeling sorry for myself or whether it's just not like the way that I like him enough to be truthful and there's just not a very truthful way of saying that I, saying, you know, very positive things. (LAUGHTER) But... So, it was kind of depressing, you know. But... (PAUSE) I should have waited and written to him today. So I realize... So I'm thinking of what we talked about yesterday and thinking about this e-mail to Morgan (ph) and thinking about when my priest (ph) called to say, "How are you doing?" Like I would rather lie to people and tell them I'm doing well than have to deal with any possible distress that they might feel from how badly I'm doing. [00:07:05]

That's not normal, right? I don't know what normal means. But like...

THERAPIST: There's something going on.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yeah. I guess (inaudible at 00:07:21)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Huh. (PAUSE) Yeah. Like I wrote this e-mail like, "I'm doing okay," and then I wrote the rest of the note and I went back and like deleted the part where I said I was doing okay because it's like, well, clearly I'm not... (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...or have not been. (PAUSE) And I think what it is, is that I think I feel like if other people, that other people will feel badly for me, that like other people's compassion will turn into something that I have to manage. [00:08:09]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: (SIGH)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think that's right (inaudible at 00:08:27) out of guilt or out of fear that (inaudible at 00:08:39) or the other person will get angry or fall apart or something.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:08:53)

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:09:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:09:11) (LAUGHTER) Although I hate when writers write in characters specifically to make you like them and then kill them. Like the guy who protects CJ (ph), the secret service guy who gets killed at the end of season three, like introduced like the last four episodes of the season specifically to be a sympathetic character who is (inaudible at 00:09:39) and then he gets killed.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And it's like I saw it coming two episodes in advance. I was like, "Oh, they're going to kill this guy off and it's going to suck."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then they did and it sucked. I just hate that. I hate when they do that because I always... Like I fall for it. [00:09:59]

I do really like this guy and I do have this emotional reaction where I feel bad that he died. But... I don't know. I feel like I got set up. (inaudible at 00:10:17) If you're going to kill somebody, kill somebody who matters.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: A little contrived.

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: A little contrived.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Or like have there be a reason to be there other than to be likeable and then dead.

(PAUSE) [00:11:00]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:11:19) (LAUGHTER) And I said, "Yep." (LAUGHTER) And then... I don't know. (inaudible at 00:11:27) I'm thinking about writing. But I feel like thinking about writing is possibly the most useful thing there is. (LAUGHTER) So...

(PAUSE) [00:12:00]

CLIENT: The woman who owns the catering company that I work for is crazy. She's... I told that I had to take off, that I was going to be out of town and the weekend of the 18th and the weekend of the 1st. And she sent me like three text messages about it, each one more guilt trippy than the last. The last one was like, "You really have to take off these weekends? The parents (ph) might complain." So I wrote back, "Yes. As I said, I'll be out of town these weekends. You can fire me if you want to. But that is what you have..." That's what she can do in this position.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:13:09]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But I... You know, I at one point said that I wouldn't come in one Sunday because it was too long a commute from one sessions and then said I would come in for another Sunday. So... I feel like I'm not doing that good of a job of like taking a hard line.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: James asked if we needed to cancel one of the weekends and I said, "No." (LAUGHTER) [00:14:01]

I was like, "No, we're leaving." (PAUSE) Yeah. It's very clearly what I need to do when people try to guilt trip me. It's not always... I just don't always do it.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I'm going to pull up the shade. It's kind of dark.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is a little dark. Thanks.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:14:57)

(PAUSE) [00:15:00]

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Do you ever have any pictures (inaudible at 00:15:19)

THERAPIST: I guess partly because it's small and partly because I just haven't gotten to it yet. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Okay. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I'm slow (inaudible at 00:15:37)

CLIENT: Okay. (LAUGHTER) How long have you been in this space?

THERAPIST: Let's see. I think going on eight years. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Sorry. (LAUGHTER) Okay. I mean, you don't want to rush into anything.

THERAPIST: No. No. [00:16:15]

(PAUSE) [00:17:00]

THERAPIST: I think some of what you're describing is how you kind of know about what you said before and sort of have for a while.

CLIENT: Which one? That I'd rather lie to people than tell them that things are bad?

THERAPIST: Yeah. And that you worry a lot about having either sort of (inaudible at 00:17:43) compassionate towards you because you're having a hard time. But I think you've had a sense of that for a while and... I mean, part of what I'm saying is that knowing that's true and doing differently are very different things. [00:18:07]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's a different thing to say, for me to say it to myself like I worry about other people, like letting other people take care of me when I'm doing badly and realizing like I'm willing to lie to people so that they won't know what I don't want them to know which is I really am doing badly. That seems striking in a way because I usually try pretty hard not to lie to people. But I like to think of myself as somebody who tries really hard not to lie.

(PAUSE) [00:19:00]

THERAPIST: I guess (inaudible at 00:19:11)

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Sorry.

THERAPIST: That's okay. That (PAUSE) one reason... (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:19:51) emotional process and it's just about figuring things out because that's generally not enough. [00:20:01]

There's got to be like a metabolism of the worry and feelings that go along with the dynamics and not just understanding of them to actually (inaudible at 00:20:21)

CLIENT: Yeah. It doesn't... Just because I understand things doesn't mean that I'm going to be able to change them. It doesn't... I didn't mean for it to sound that way. Just because I understand something doesn't mean that I do change it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It's good to understand things. I guess probably what I'm doing it talking you through like (inaudible at 00:20:49) and trying to be a little explanatory that...

CLIENT: I guess for me (inaudible at 00:20:53) king of the same.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: And of course knowing isn't enough to make it better. There has to be some kind of like breakthrough of the worry and feeling that's going on with the dynamics you recognize which happens exponentially here as you (inaudible at 00:21:27) telling me about how badly you're doing. You're anxious about my compassion for you right now and things like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Yeah. I think that I don't...

(PAUSE) [00:22:00]

CLIENT: I think that's also (inaudible at 00:22:05) sometimes easier for me to in crisis because that's like the point at which I can say this is more important for me to tell people about this than it is for me to...

Yeah. (PAUSE) You know, so like when I have a hard time telling you things, sometimes the way I kind of get around that is to say like, "This is something that he needs to know because he's my therapist. Like this is information that he needs," or to be like, "This is the point of therapy. Like this is why I'm here is to talk about this stuff." So... [00:23:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Sometimes I have to kind of be stern with myself about that. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well, I think you're like invoking a certain kind of component really in order to overcome the anxiety. Like if I'm going to be doing what I'm supposed to do, I need to do this. Not like...

CLIENT: Oh, I'm just dumping things on you. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:23:45)

CLIENT: That would be awful.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:23:51)

CLIENT: Yeah. I can't just tell you things because I want you to know them.

(PAUSE) [00:24:00]

THERAPIST: Well, we're talking enough about this to make me wonder what you may have in mind. Like whether there are... (inaudible at 00:24:15)

CLIENT: I can't think of any.

THERAPIST: Okay. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: I think I'm thinking about it more... So part of it is like I'm not in crisis right now. What do I talk about? And part of it is like I've been trying to get back into the world and like pick back up with people. [00:25:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And for like every conversation, there's sort of how much do I say and what do I want to say, what do they want to hear and...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I see. (inaudible at 00:25:39) the situation you're finding yourself in as you're like talking with other people.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:26:00]

CLIENT: Well, in some ways, I have the opposite problem with you. I have a hard time talking about things that are not crises, that I have to kind of say every time, "Like this is how free association works. It's okay to talk about TV you're watching." Really, we talked about this. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Right. Right. [00:26:57]

CLIENT: But it still feels like a real risk every time. (PAUSE) You know, I think about you saying that if I'm having a hard time and I need to call you, I can. But the question like, "What do I need," is a very fraught question for me. Like I don't... (PAUSE) Which I think the connection with here is saying do I still need to be in therapy if I'm not in crisis? [00:28:11]

To which the answer is obviously yes. But it doesn't feel like an automatic yes to me.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I just feel like you don't want to be in therapy if you're not in crisis.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Well... (SIGH) (PAUSE) Well, I do in that like I really like talking with you. I really like being here. But...

(PAUSE) [00:29:00]

CLIENT: It's the sort of thing that I like that I feel badly about liking or I feel badly about getting.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And like... (PAUSE) Yeah. Like if I'm here just because I want to be here, that's something I should really hate myself for.

THERAPIST: I see.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: So that's kind of like a needing to find something to do for the next two weeks or work toward because if I just do what I want, then, you know, I'll just hate myself. [00:30:01]

When I say it out loud, it seems pretty weird. (LAUGHTER) I guess I am pretty (inaudible at 00:30:25)

(PAUSE) [00:31:00]

CLIENT: If I want to be here and it's not hard, there must be something really wrong. (SIGH)

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

CLIENT: I think the (inaudible at 00:32:53) have you like them and then they die. I just feel like such a sucker. [00:33:05]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it's one thing to tell yourself that being kind hearted and empathetic is a good thing. It feels like it just doesn't work out for me more often than not.

THERAPIST: I see.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: In the same way that like my default is to like people and trust them. I don't know why that's my default because I feel like that works out badly for me most of the time or a lot of the time. [00:34:09]

(PAUSE) [00:35:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. The main reason (inaudible at 00:35:49) I like people. (inaudible at 00:36:01) a lot of times I end up getting kind of screwed. [00:36:11]

(PAUSE) [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: I guess my question is (inaudible at 00:37:45) happen to like people (inaudible at 00:38:03) that you sort of play some part in how that happens because you actually (inaudible at 00:38:19) in some ways. [00:38:21]

CLIENT: Yeah. Like it's reassuring to me to be taken advantage of.

THERAPIST: Maybe sometimes. Yeah. (PAUSE) We were talking about what you want or spending the next two weeks (inaudible at 00:38:57)

CLIENT: No. Of course not. (LAUGHTER) [00:39:07]

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) These things you said are kind of tied up around...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Good point. Of course I think it would be great if it were easier for you to (inaudible at 00:39:45) just a matter of like deciding it's going to be different. But like of course there are things that you could do.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:39:53]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I know. (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:40:25) You wouldn't tell me, would you? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It doesn't bother me. I felt like you were calling me out (inaudible at 00:40:53)

CLIENT: Okay.

(PAUSE) [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Okay. (PAUSE) Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

CLIENT: I guess I... (PAUSE) I've been thinking more about the tendency to make jokes about things that actually kind of bother me as opposed to kind of telling people that they bother me. And... I don't know. I'm not sure I really like myself when I do that. So...

THERAPIST: Well, what bothered you there? So I had said (inaudible at 00:42:51)

CLIENT: It... (SIGH) [00:43:03]

It does make me uncomfortable that you don't really make suggestions at all about what I should do.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (SIGH) It doesn't mean that I think it would be better if you did make suggestions about what I should do. It's just something I just... It's something I kind of trip over.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And actually, I wasn't actually being coy there. (inaudible at 00:43:55) not because I didn't want to give advice or because I was trying to be neutral. But because I know that's very hard for you to do and I felt like if I said...

CLIENT: "Well you should just do that." (LAUGHTER) [00:44:11]

THERAPIST: Yeah. That it would be kind of insensitive.

CLIENT: "Have you tried just not being hurt by what people say?" (LAUGHTER) Yeah. I know and I think the thing for me about like making this joke is that it happens really, really fast and so it's like it wasn't actually... (SIGH) I guess one of the things that worries me is that I don't feel like I', being critical and I'm sort of becoming aware that maybe I'm becoming more critical than I think I am and that, you know, troubles me. [00:44:57]

THERAPIST: Right. And I think... I mean, the thing about my... I think the thing about my, your frustration with my lack of suggestions, even if they're not actually what you want like is important. (inaudible at 00:45:17)

(CROSSTALK)

END TRANSCRIPT