TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Hi. So I was actually legitimately late today. (LAUGHTER) I have a doctor's appointment after this because my thyroid levels are off. So... I had to print it out and forgot to do it until like exactly the time that I usually leave to come here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they were like, "Well, maybe you should not just bring your latest test results because you've never seen this doctor before." (inaudible at 00:00:45) Anyway... (SIGH)

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

CLIENT: I talked to James today. A woman who's raising money for the school called.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: I don't know if you get those phone calls.

THERAPIST: It might be a different school.

CLIENT: No. Probably not. But she like wanted to like... She was like (inaudible at 00:01:21) "And what do you think about that?" And it's like, you know, education or like (inaudible) And she was like, "What do you think the school did for you?" Like, I was checking my e-mail. I don't know. (LAUGHTER) It was frustrating because like she clearly hadn't been to the school…

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: ...because she wasn't actually talking about anything specific.

THERAPIST: It wasn't even...

CLIENT: She wasn't an alum.

THERAPIST: Right. That's what I mean.

CLIENT: You should get an alum...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...because then...

THERAPIST: Right. (inaudible at 00:01:57) [00:02:01]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:02:03) I was like, "Actually, I'm unemployed for the last few months. So (LAUGHTER) I really support that school and I hope at some point in the future to be able to support it more tangibly."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So then James and I started talking about school and about education and I got really sad. (PAUSE) There was also... I went to a talk yesterday at my church. I guy from (inaudible at 00:02:55) He was interesting. Like it was a good talk and I was kind of the only one in the room who, as far as I could tell, who had an academic background. [00:03:05]

So like when the question time came, he got a bunch of very off the wall questions about like, "Do you think this person who has been dead for fifteen years would have been heading in the same direction that your work is heading in?" It's like, "I don't know." (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: He handled that very gracefully. It was a church and he is a theologian. "Where is God and truth in all of this stuff that you've been talking about?" He also handled that very gracefully.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And so I asked a question that was more like...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...what you would hear at a conference. Actually I asked... (LAUGHTER) He said that the, one of the best things about getting a PhD for him was that it really unleashed his rage. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) [00:03:57]

CLIENT: So I haven't gotten around to e-mailing that to Kirsten (ph) but I'm going to. (LAUGHTER) So then I asked him about like... And he talked also about he's doing clear theology. So his book is about like clear theology but also like theology of people of color and how... And he talked about that like coming from being fueled by rage in many ways and about like anger being an important starting point in his life. So I kind of asked how does that... When you want the end point to be mediation (ph), how do you do that?

THERAPIST: I see. [00:04:55]

CLIENT: I guess what I... (PAUSE) So it occurred to me that like as far as I can tell what I learned to do in grad school was ask really good questions. (LAUGHTER) Like I'm really good at going to a conference and asking the questions that lets the presenter show off and also makes me look good. Yeah. It's a skill. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just... (SIGH) I just miss that. (PAUSE) And I don't know what I do now and I feel like, I feel a lot like a did at Texas A&M. (CRYING) Like I have come to the realization that the things I value nobody else seems to value and the community (inaudible at 00:06:03) like I'm not a part of anymore. [00:06:05]

And I don't know what to do now. So... (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) Yeah. A lot of talking around but... (PAUSE) It's just like I have this very... It's like the Academy (ph) is this really specialized really bitchy kind of world that I love and that I really understand in some ways and that I know how to fit into.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:07:09]

CLIENT: And now that's gone and I don't know what to do next. I mean, I do know what I'm going to do next. I don't... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I guess I... (inaudible at 00:07:43)

(PAUSE) [00:08:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like I'm just so angry and so sad and that just sort of comes up at awkward times when I'm not really expecting it and the rest of the time I don't really notice it or forget about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:08:41)

CLIENT: Is what?

THERAPIST: Try serious major depression.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess so. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. [00:08:59]

THERAPIST: My question too is... I mean, I'm sure this is interesting in a variety of ways. The one I had in mind of course was (inaudible at 00:09:17) "Well, yeah, but how do you put that, you know, how can that be socially contained and productive? You know, you can get angry. What do you do with that when you actually are with other people and mediate, you know, to other people in these positions?"

CLIENT: Yeah. I was thinking that... And I asked the question in part because I'm really angry (LAUGHTER) and in part because all of my friends who are theologians or most of my friends who are theologians, most of them are Catholic theologians which means that basically like they've got a lot of rage. (LAUGHTER) [00:10:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I feel like they don't necessarily deal with it well. Kirsten and a group of her like friends and colleagues had this blog. And they just do this thing where you are only talking to the people who agree with you and just get really angry and shut down if anyone doesn't. And I think that like finding a community of people who are also angry about the same things is really important and helpful. But I also... I don't, I don't think they're going about... Like it... They're just not being constructive in some ways. They're not building bridges and they want to be building bridges but they're not doing it the right way. Like I can't tell them that.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. [00:11:01]

CLIENT: But... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I mean, back to me (LAUGHTER) I feel like... (SIGH) (PAUSE) I feel like I don't really have anybody to talk to who's angry in the same ways that I'm angry that I can think of (PAUSE) because most of the people that I know who would understand are sort of...

(PAUSE) [00:12:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's (PAUSE) just awkward to become really, really angry about something that doesn't have much to do with the people you're talking to and they're not going to really understand or... Like I find myself wanting to start crying in conversations at random basically and... You know, it's not actually at random but... (PAUSE) Yeah. I do worry about containing that.

(PAUSE) [00:13:00]

CLIENT: I feel like a failure. (PAUSE) I had a really good week though, other than today. (LAUGHTER) You know, (inaudible at 00:13:47) and reading books.

(PAUSE) [00:14:00]

(PAUSE) [00:15:00]

CLIENT: I'm very prickly. So... Like it's... (PAUSE) I get upset more in conversations because it's like all the things that I used to not really take personally... I take everything personally now. Or everything kind of circles back to these things that I'm sad about.

(PAUSE) [00:16:00]

CLIENT: We talked the other day about (PAUSE) about James having a hard time trusting me and being pretty angry. That was actually a good conversation. For some reason, that's not something that sets me off or it doesn't start me spiraling and I'm not sure why. [00:17:01]

I just said, "Okay, you're angry at me. That's fine. You can keep being angry at me. I wish that I..." Yeah. (PAUSE) (SIGH) And it's funny because, for James, that's much more ongoing and harder than I think than (inaudible at 00:17:45) I can't get over or forgive myself for.

THERAPIST: I think I'm a little confused. So... [00:18:03]

CLIENT: So I'm...

THERAPIST: It was when you were (inaudible at 00:18:05)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:18:07) suicide.

THERAPIST: Ah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Now I understand. (PAUSE) So he is angry and doesn't feel especially forgiving about your feeling suicidal but you're angry with yourself and not truly forgiving for what happened to Dan (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:19:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know why I can let go of the one but not the other. You know, I can say, "I tried my best and my best was not good enough to keep James from being, you know, abandoned and constantly afraid that I was going to kill myself." [00:20:11]

But I tried for that not to be the way things were for him and I was not successful. (PAUSE) I don't know. (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:20:35) It was probably worse for me. (LAUGHTER) I don't think that is actually a very useful way of thinking about it. I don't tell (inaudible at 00:20:53)

(PAUSE) [00:21:00]

CLIENT: I feel like I'm not very clear headed today. (PAUSE) Things aren't putting themselves into sentences that I can say. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:22:00]

CLIENT: I guess I feel like dropping out of school is (PAUSE) this loss that is not easy for other people to understand. But I feel like I lost like my home and myself and any purpose that I had. [00:22:59]

And I don't know how to feel. Most people don't think of... I mean, maybe most people do think of grad school that way. It's (inaudible at 00:23:21)

THERAPIST: Well, you're... I think (PAUSE) maybe (inaudible at 00:23:37) losing grad school and your home. Like (inaudible at 00:23:57) [00:24:09]

I think that like you're avoiding conflict in, you know, in ways... You're upset (inaudible at 00:24:31) in conflict over it and much less anxious if you were (inaudible at 00:24:45) the theologians and your question and (inaudible at 00:24:59) [00:25:01]

It creates kind of conflict but something that's like a very live and dangerous thing if you're sort of explaining your (inaudible at 00:25:27) how badly you feel and what a loss it was when you left graduate school (inaudible at 00:25:37) There would be some negotiation there (inaudible at 00:25:45) how seriously I take it or how like (inaudible at 00:25:55) like I don't understand or maybe I don't push back or something like that. [00:26:03]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:27:00]

CLIENT: I don't know how I feel about talking about this with you. I feel like talking about it with most people in order to... Yeah. In order to get to a point where I can tell them that like I've lost this huge thing, I have to explain what it means to me to, you know, what it meant to me to be working in academia. [00:27:59]

CLIENT: (SIGH) I'm having a really hard time articulating this. I'm sorry.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: It's okay.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: It's like when people get divorced there's sort of a short hand for that loss. Like you say, "We got divorced," and people know that that means losing, not just like companionship of the other person but this sense of yourself as a partner in a relationship and the whole idea of the future that you were going to have together and all of these things. [00:29:07]

THERAPIST: Sort of imagining a great deal (inaudible at 00:29:21)

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think you're right that I do... It's not just that I have to explain to people but (inaudible at 00:29:31) this idea of like doing good work in the world and having a career that is about doing something greater than myself and, you know, loving this community of ideas and this sense of myself as somebody who has ideas and this whole like structure of value that I put on myself. [00:30:01]

But it's not just that I have to explain that. I feel like I have to defend that also. (PAUSE) I worry that people think, "Oh, you shouldn't be hanging all your hopes on this in the first place." Well, maybe. But I did. I didn't really realize that I was doing it until it was gone. I didn't realize how important it was to me to be the smart one until that was gone.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:30:57]

CLIENT: But, you know, even saying "the smart one" is shorthand for... (CRYING)

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

CLIENT: And I talk to people who are still in school and I know how much they have invested and it being a case of my not being good enough for that community rather than that community failed me. [00:32:55]

THERAPIST: You're talking about people in school.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You said that they know it?

CLIENT: I feel like it's very important to them that...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: ...it's a case of I wasn't good enough to be there...

THERAPIST: Rather than you were disappointed.

CLIENT: ...rather than I got screwed. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. (PAUSE) And I'm not sure how much of this is coming from what people are saying and how much is just what I'm making up. (SIGH) Probably a lot of the latter. It's the latter. But...

THERAPIST: Well, either way...

(PAUSE) [00:34:00]

THERAPIST: You know, there's not a lot of room for people to hear you out. You anticipate their...

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:34:49)

CLIENT: I understand. (LAUGHTER) I've got to understand it.

(PAUSE) [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: I think you feel that in other people in a very intense way and I'm putting aside the question of how much is there or what is there or what isn't. I think you feel that to be there.

CLIENT: Other people needing to protect themselves?

THERAPIST: Yeah, in a very accurate way.

(PAUSE) [00:36:00]

CLIENT: It's interesting talking with Joshua (ph).

THERAPIST: Uh huh?

CLIENT: A huge part of me also just wants to protect him. I really like this guy and I know that he's not terribly self-confident and that he has... You know, he has two kids. This is a big risk for him. So I don't... It's like I have a lot invested in saying, you know, I left for reasons that were (inaudible at 00:36:55) so that couldn't possibly happen to you. [00:37:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I feel like social interactions are very fraught for me right now. [00:38:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know when I'm going to be inappropriately sad or angry and make everybody else uncomfortable.

(PAUSE) [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: Are you worried that I will feel like I'm a failure if you're really sad and upset and angry?

CLIENT: I don't think so.

(PAUSE) [00:40:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I sort of lost track of the idea of therapy moving towards something. (LAUGHTER) [00:40:57]

(inaudible at 00:41:01)

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know whether that's actually true or not.

THERAPIST: Well, it's a little bit omnipotent to me. I mean (inaudible at 00:42:53)

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: I was sort of trying to figure out why you might be doing that. Like, I mean, the idea that you would be in control, that you would not worry about that with me because that would really be a problem...

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:43:31)

THERAPIST: So, I mean, I get that but it sort of presumes...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And... (PAUSE) And also, and this is I guess the other thing that (inaudible at 00:43:57) between you and I. Like that's just something that you need to be in charge of. [00:44:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. Now I see what you mean there. And I think you're absolutely right. (PAUSE) Yeah. I think I'm... You know, I think that's generalizable. I think I'm uncomfortable with (inaudible at 00:44:47)

THERAPIST: I think especially when it comes to emotional things (inaudible at 00:44:55)

(PAUSE) [00:45:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We should (inaudible at 00:45:11) We are on our usual schedule this week and then next week we start on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yeah. Is that okay?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's fine. We don't meet...

CLIENT: Wednesday or Thursday.

THERAPIST: ...next Wednesday or Thursday. But we do on Friday.

CLIENT: Okay. I can't remember. Was it 4:30 on Friday?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT