Client "Ma", Session May 9, 2013: Client talks about her ECT and past treatment, as well as her troubled relationship with her father. trial
TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: I'm fussing around with things.
CLIENT: Okay. So as usual I have no idea why I feel the way I do. But I'm having a really good day. So you know, I'll take it. I had tea with Joshua.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Ran into two other people from my department which was you know, it was awkward. But like Joshua was very – we, we were meeting at the coffee shop on campus.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh, I think you mentioned it, yes.
CLIENT: It was the cheap one.
THERAPIST: Right. [00:00:51]
CLIENT: (laughing) And so like, I said like last time we met there that I felt kind of awkward being there. And so you know Joshua was like, oh we can go somewhere else, but like I feel bad asking him to pay like $3.00 for coffee, and like and I also just feel like I need to get over it so. [00:01:11]
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: I yeah, so he's like, are you okay, and I'm just like I'm just going to get over it. (laugh).
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It was okay. And also like I really like all the people in my department. I really do.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: And I don't see how it cannot be awkward. But at the same time I'm like I don't know. I want them to know I like them. Which I don't know how not actively avoiding them, I could tell them that. But whatever. Yeah it's just, we need to talk. [00:01:58]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Can I tell you a secret?
THERAPIST: Yeah of course.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I'm making a timeline of the last like two years.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Because I forget about things and I want (sigh), shockingly enough I want to feel like I have some control over the situation. (laugh) So I've been like reading back through journals and talking with James about it. And feel like forwarded a whole bunch of e-mails that he'd sent out to various people. [00:02:47]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: You know to help me reconstruct things. There were like three hospitalizations that I completely forgot about. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Um-hum. The ones that around the ECT?
CLIENT: No, not just that, like I forgot that I was first hospitalized in 2009.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: I just forgot.
THERAPIST: Huh.
CLIENT: About -
THERAPIST: You thought you were first hospitalized in 2011?
CLIENT: I thought yeah, that I was first hospitalized like in like last fall, like in late 2012.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: But now, no, no, (laugh)
THERAPIST: I wasn't around but you told me that.
CLIENT: Yeah, (laugh) exactly like. I forgot that I was first hospitalized like before I started meeting with you.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like I don't know so. It's one of those things that I feel like could be really bad for me, but I think it's actually not bad for me. I think it's okay. [00:03:54]
THERAPIST: You mean the out time.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And like reading back through things.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: More like feeling up to facing down some stuff.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.
THERAPIST: And sort of, yeah.
CLIENT: It feels very clearly like I'm not in those places right now.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: So like the last couple of days you know, I've been very sad. And I have been telling James like comparatively speaking, I'm pretty good.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Like things are bad, but like not even a single part. But I don't know if I, like I it's hard for me to tell some times. [00:04:58]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Because like -
THERAPIST: Right, you can't remember all that well.
CLIENT: Yeah (laugh)
THERAPIST: About what -
CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh)
THERAPIST: The affair struck of course.
CLIENT: Oh. Yeah. I think it's been, I don't know, it seems like it's been hard, but I think it's been good for James to be able to talk to me some about it.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Like God I've he's been through the ringer. Like I think in some ways, my doing ECT was as hard or harder for him as it was for me. Like he just talked a lot about my getting more and more out of it.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And like I don't remember that.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: I have, you know I have a like very vague memory of just not wanting anything and that being like pretty good comparatively. [00:05:59]
THERAPIST: Yeah. I can remember that he came in here so he and I could kind of compare notes.
CLIENT: Yeah, I don't remember that.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But like that week especially of like the week that they did the three -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Back to back.
THERAPIST: Right. It was a higher dosage or something like that.
CLIENT: I think he like I think he really wanted to talk about that stuff.
THERAPIST: Uh-hum.
CLIENT: I don't know. And I don't remember.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah but he said I would like start talking and I would forget what I wanted to say by the time I got to the end of the sentence. So I was just like turned off. [00:06:49]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I think what he said was at least zombies want to eat something. (laughing)
THERAPIST: (laughing)
CLIENT: (pause) Any way.
THERAPIST: Yeah, it was there I mean I remember it was very striking.
CLIENT: Um-hum. Yeah.
THERAPIST: We Initially started meeting here I think even before that I mean where you'd come in and you sort of wouldn't have much to say and wasn't the same as that, you know previously we talked about how anxious you'd feel when you didn't have anything to say. And if there was a silence of like 30 seconds or a minute, you know you'd get really anxious and you would talk about it. And it sounded like ten minutes. Like literally ten minutes.
CLIENT: Jesus.
THERAPIST: And I would sort of bring up to you like, ah silence is whaa, whaa, whaa, anxious whaa, whaa, whaa, and you were like (sniff) (sniff). (chuckle)
CLIENT: Just like that. [00:07:56]
THERAPIST: Yeah, pretty much. (laugh)
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: And you were like yeah, I just don't have very much to say. You know I don't remember that we talked about, I don't remember that I used to be anxious.
CLIENT: Hum.
THERAPIST: And I don't remember what we talked about. And like you were clearly in such a different way.
CLIENT: Hum.
THERAPIST: And yeah, you were I remember, I think that that – I mean is it helpful if I describe anymore?
CLIENT: Yeah, no it is actually.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: It's like I don't even know these things.
THERAPIST: I don't know if it's a way for you, but I remember it yeah like and there was that week where you didn't, you couldn't tell me what the book you were reading was about.
CLIENT: Hum.
THERAPIST: Like you hardly were doing I think you could still read.
CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:08:56]
THERAPIST: But I remember asking like to try to get us some patter, but you were like, well what's the book about? And I sort of figured you know something that's never a question you kind of tell looking back.
CLIENT: I always have something to tell you about. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Right. Really, but do you want the 30 second version, the five minute version, the -
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: You were very like, what do you want. And you sort of puzzled and were like, I can't decide about something like that. And like you literally had nothing to say. And then I ask if you could tell me the name of the characters and you couldn't.
CLIENT: Hum. Hum.
THERAPIST: And then yeah, James and I talked and sort of, are you as freaked out about this as I am? Like it wasn't just a little memory loss, it was just like, he's like, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah, James was pretty freaked out. [00:09:54]
THERAPIST: Yeah. We called the doctor, the guy who claimed to be doing the ECT. He was going all freaked out. I mean he was very responsive to the I mean he got right back to both of us and -
CLIENT: Uh-huh.
THERAPIST: You know, he sort of explained it away, and he -
CLIENT: Which makes me really worried about like the rest of their patients. Like if that's I know, I don't know.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I sort of want to talk to my mom about what her experience with me was.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: It would be a comfort to me. Because like everybody else that I talk to at the hospital was really glad to be doing it. Like just every like, seems to feel like it really, really helped them. But I mean the way James described the other people who were doing ECT there, like they were also really slowed down.
THERAPIST: Yeah. You, you like that one week you were probably, I mean you were pretty out of it. The other weeks when you were not as out of it, you would say that it was helping. [00:10:59]
CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I didn't want to kill myself.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So I don't know how much of the Anyway, all of my friends on the Internet today have been talking about, there is this young woman who writes a site called hyperbole and a half, that's like stories about your life with like these ridiculous drawings in MS Paint. That's just -
THERAPIST: Oh I think somebody may have sent me that.
CLIENT: Really oh good.
THERAPIST: I didn't see it. But I heard it's funny.
CLIENT: Anyway so she's like very, very funny and just like about 18 months ago just stopped posting. Just like stopped. And she just announced that like she had a book deal. Like she was just trying to work on the book and then like nothing.
And then she posted had one like very long post describing her depression. And then like nothing. And so she just posted like the second half of that. Like describing like this is what the last 18 months have been. [00:12:01]
Which is somewhat of the last 18 months of my life. And it's you should read it. It's like hilariously funny. It's really good.
But so she talks like the thing that is, it seems like her depression was pretty different from mine, and she talks about like not being able to feel anything.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: But just not being capable of any emotions at all.
THERAPIST: Like a am nest.
CLIENT: Yeah. And I was kind of reading through those descriptions and like, oh so that's about what I felt like on these ECT.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Like that was just I didn't want anything. But you know. [00:12:55]
(pause) If it is I am glad to not be there anymore.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: (pause) It's really fine. Okay, I'll stop right there. (laugh)
THERAPIST: It's okay. No, talk, go ahead. It's all right.
CLIENT: (laugh) (pause) Well I don't know. (long pause) [00:14:00]
It is (long pause) I don't know why I feel like (pause) you know, this. (sigh) It's like I'm really not glad that the last 18 months were so horrible for this woman. But at the same time I'm really glad she wrote about it.
THERAPIST: Um-hum. Sure.
CLIENT: But it yeah. (long pause) [00:15:00]
You know and I when I read journals, it's like something that can it helps me remember things.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And so I feel like that kind of gray space that covers like the summer of 2010 to this year is you know, there are pieces that I remember.
THERAPIST: Um-hum. [00:15:49]
CLIENT: And (pause) (sigh) There is something I wrote down and I don't know whether I came up with it, or if it's quoting something else. But it made me think about what I've been talking about with you the last couple of days. I think I wrote something like (pause) When I go to say it out loud it's really cheesy, but whatever happens, but I can't be cheesy here. [00:16:42]
It's like the way to healing is through pain. But the flip side is, there is a way to healing through pain. [00:16:48]
THERAPIST: Um-hum. Yeah.
CLIENT: That was more embarrassing then I thought to say then I thought it was going to be. I don't know, kind of awkward. (pause) Which is just to say I don't think I'm mad or anything.
THERAPIST: Really.
CLIENT: But that's nice for me. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Right. (pause)
Is it all clear when or how that happened? Like not being mad that you were? I guess why I'm wondering is whether it came out of something you and I were talking about yesterday or it just kind of happened? [00:18:01]
CLIENT: It feels like it just kind of happened.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: I mean (sigh) (pause) it's still like I really didn't know that, I really did agree with you when you said that it really wasn't about you. Or that my like being so hurt and upset, I don't exactly remember exactly, but, that was coming at least partly from – it's just like pain and horror at what happened to me when I was younger. And – or the things that have happened to me in the past and having to confront that I don't get to control these situations. [00:19:08]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: That I can't keep people from hurting me.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: It was like I knew that you were right, but I was so hurt by you saying these things to me that I couldn't really think about that.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And it feels like that kind of overlay of being hurt at you was just kind of dissipated. [00:19:45]
THERAPIST: Uh-huh. And I was right but it did kind of fell like there's a hurt that comes from looking at things that have been hurtful or painful. And a hurt that comes from I guess other ways of being treated.
CLIENT: (pause) Hum. Every feel like life these terms.
THERAPIST: Well (pause) Well looks like I have to clarify. You're not so worried about like transferring?
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:20:55]
THERAPIST: So I think that's it right there where [00:20:59]
CLIENT: I don't remember asking about transferring.
THERAPIST: Oh yeah.
CLIENT: (laugh) I remember like thinking about it.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Okay. I see what you mean.
THERAPIST: I felt like what I was saying I was saying to be hurtful.
CLIENT: Uh-huh.
THERAPIST: And maybe I got to be cruel and that feeling was so intense that it sort of obscured other, or eclipsed other ways you could see or feel about it.
CLIENT: Um-hum.
THERAPIST: And even though you knew in your head they were there.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It felt like a reiteration or another instance of just the kind of thing that has been hurtful often times.
CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:21:58]
THERAPIST: And in a way it was. But it was also kind of different.
CLIENT: Hum. (pause)
THERAPIST: Like I mean something I might have been wrong, wasn't meant to hurt, it may not have helped. It wasn't intended to be cruel. You know what I mean, like -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I'm not saying I'm not inadvertently hurtful. I'm sure I am, but in that sense it sort of felt the way it wasn't quite, sort of transfer is like.
CLIENT: Okay, thanks.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And yeah. [00:22:51]
CLIENT: I think one of the things that was hurtful about it was that I (pause) (sigh) it felt to me like you were telling me that I would never be able to get out of abusive relationships. And like I this is where I am and this is where I always will be. Which is kind of the opposite of what you were saying. (laugh) So [00:23:31]
THERAPIST: But I understand it felt that way.
CLIENT: Yeah. And that's really, really, like that would be a completely terrifying thought for me. Like the most terrifying thought.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Is to think that to think that I won't be able to get out of it. That I won't be able to get out of like framing my relationships in this way. (sigh) [00:23:59]
THERAPIST: All right why don't you thought – I want to circle back to the one that address what you just said in a minute. But the first one is, and I think there's the thing also was hurtful was you had just told me about how you had been feeling like being bruised and like everything hurt.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And I did hear a plea in that not to hurt you, which I did not say that I heard, though I did. And (long pause) I think I'm going in front of you what to talk about like [00:25:03]
(long pause) I entirely like I know you, I believe you, I know that's your experience. (pause) And (pause) I could try to take that information where I say, but I also because I was always taking into consideration that I couldn't be very helpful.
CLIENT: I know. I'm not really okay with that, but I know.
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:25:58]
CLIENT: Like I tell myself that a lot.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause) And it's funny it's written certainly in its way, like fits right into the narrative of something that feels abusive. Like well there's a good reason he says these things that hurt.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It's uncanny.
CLIENT: So it's (sigh) so that's like why, like I know that. And so that's like as I've tried to explain this to myself or kind of help myself work through being hurt, like I tell myself that, but I don't know whether it's real or not, because it matches up so well with these like, with other justifications. [00:27:07]
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: So.
THERAPIST: Yeah, this seems to me like one of the things that we're going kind of probably have to hash out a bunch of times, you know, in an ongoing way. Where you're like fuck you, that hurt. And I'm like well what was I going to say.
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: And you're like, you never say that. (laugh)
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: And I say well, okay. You know I -
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:27:33]
THERAPIST: I mean I'm -
CLIENT: Yeah. Well I think that's why it works in abuse because it's so close to it could so easily be real. So like, I remember like I used to like doodle on myself with pens when I was little.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: You know like kids do. [00:28:03]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And there was one time that like, my dad like screamed at me for that. Like just went off the handle at me for writing on myself. And it wasn't like I was writing anything inappropriate. Like I was just -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like drawing a picture or whatever. (sigh) You know and so like the narrative that I'm sure he constructed for himself was, well I have to teach her to, I don't know, respect her body or present herself well, or something.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And like that (sigh) it could so easily be true that he needed to do those things, but that doesn't -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So you know what I mean. [00:28:55]
THERAPIST: Sure like for example (pause) you know, if you had done something that was really genuinely very dangerous, you know like you went outside at four and tried to cross the street by yourself when you were like four years old. And he like got really mad and just kind of lost it. At least for me it would be easier to be sympathetic with that. Like especially if it was in the like really scared more so then blaming kind of way. [00:29:34]
CLIENT: Um-hum.
THERAPIST: You know like, yeah sure you know, probably not the best way to teach you not to cross the street. But you kind of understand with him that there really is -
CLIENT: There's a real urgency to that.
THERAPIST: Yeah and again, if it's like cruel and blaming and mean, that's one thing, but like you know a parent who gets really scared and kind of blows up when something really dangerous like that happens, I don't know, but that seems somewhat synthetic.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: To me like I can understand that. [00:30:00]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Whereas like if it was a drawing on yourself with a pen, not like that.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I'm trying to remember what my point was. I started with one, I really did. I think right I guess my point was that he was kind of claiming it was more like the thing with crossing the street.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That you know, well this is reasonable because how else am I going to teach you -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Or of course I'm upset because you really need to know.
CLIENT: Yeah, because I need for you to learn these things. Yeah.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So (pause) So I guess what I was saying is like I'm always really ready with that kind of narrative. [00:31:01]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I can't it's not very clear for me what's reasonable and what's not.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Right, and I see that as a kind of transferential issue to work through. [00:31:25]
CLIENT: Hum.
THERAPIST: In other words like it's really kind of question about your judgment in any particular instance, I think more than it is of like a rule you can just keep in mind kind of thing. [00:31:38]
And (pause) and I think the problem is that (pause) you are ready to use that kind of narrative because it was very important to have a narrative that sort of protected him and by protecting him sort of protected you in a way. [00:32:14]
CLIENT: Hum.
THERAPIST: Does that make sense?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: So that somebody was in control of the situation.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Apparently your dad is being reasonable and he blows up reasonably, and you know the reason that you should just behave reasonably and not get blown up at. But just like that one parent who is gone and one parent who's left and who is out of control a lot of times or sometime.
CLIENT: Um-hum. Hum. (pause) [00:33:00]
THERAPIST: And I think you still and we see that a lot with me with other people to have an experience it feels to you like you're with someone who could blow up or who you know, is going to say something hurtful if you're not careful and it's contingent on how careful you are and that you tell me you can't get angry, act comfortably, you know like I'm really comfortable, get angry but you know what I mean like that -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It's very scary to get angry, you know. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:33:59]
(long pause) What was the other thing you were about to say?
THERAPIST: We just covered it.
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: No, no, no, it's okay.
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: We covered it. It was about –
CLIENT: Oh.
THERAPIST: You wanting to have, wanting to bring things that way.
CLIENT: Yeah. And until I get -
THERAPIST: And for good – I'm sorry for good historical reasons.
CLIENT: For historical reasons anyway.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. Well I feel like at this point I have like both the impulse to frame things that way and like a really strong distrust of that way of framing it. [00:34:52]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So like as soon as I say to myself that like you know, it's not your job to tell you what you want to hear all the time because that wouldn't actually be helpful. [00:35:04]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: As soon as I say that then I (sigh) then the part of me that like you know, did break up with Bryan and did like say that I'm not going to let my father yell at me anymore, says like that kind of arguing from authority is exactly how abuse works. [00:35:38]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So -
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: (big sigh) (long pause) [00:36:00]
(continued long pause) [00:37:00]
THERAPIST: Yeah, you are in a similar situation.
CLIENT: Hum. Yeah. (long pause) [00:37:46]
I don't know. (pause) I feel like I've spent a lot of time trying to keep these things from controlling my life and sometimes I feel like the more time I spend the more they control my life. [00:38:09]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: And yeah. (long pause) [00:38:54]
Well I want to know why. Yeah. Like I just go back to wondering the same things over and over again. Why didn't anybody say anything to my father. It's like surely somebody noticed something. Like (pause) was that really that close to normal parenting? (long pause) [00:39:51]
He must have been so miserable.
THERAPIST: Hum.
(long pause) [00:40:07]
CLIENT: You don't think. I don't, but oh well, (laugh).
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
(long pause) [00:41:00]
(continued long pause) [00:41:43]
CLIENT: I think about, I mean just reading back through my journals, like I think about like all these doctors, all these social workers, and all these people. (sigh) [00:42:00]
And it's just I trust authority really easily. You know there was a guy who I'd forgotten about this until I read about it. There was a guy who told me that he thought my seeing you four times a week was making things worse. And that I really should work on like containing my symptoms. [00:42:22]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: And not digging things up.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: That wasn't very much fun for me. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I bet not.
CLIENT: Like I just especially not then, but just in general I don't have it in me to just tell him to go fuck himself.
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: Like I can't do that.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Um (pause)
THERAPIST: I know that I guess I should probably you didn't seem that far from that yesterday. [00:42:58]
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: (laugh) I think I -
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: But I know it's hard for you. I think that like -
CLIENT: Well just is like, even if I ultimately say I think he's wrong. Like there's still -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Always -
THERAPIST: No really, yeah with it though, and you knew he was in some ways far from the situation. You knew he had actually spoken in a, I think in a somewhat qualified way. I mean as opposed to like being super -
CLIENT: Yeah. He didn't let go of it though. [00:43:41]
THERAPIST: Oh, really, oh okay.
CLIENT: Like when I told him these are the reasons –
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That I think that you're mistaken. He didn't let go of it.
THERAPIST: Oh, okay.
CLIENT: But (pause) I don't know. [00:43:58]
THERAPIST: Yeah, but it really loomed large. I remember a time where you were very upset and worried about him.
CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) [00:44:42]
I feel like I have something I was trying to get to there, and it's gone now. I can't find it. (pause) [00:44:59]
THERAPIST: Well we can stop now. [00:45:12]
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