TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Stop relying on you to be late.
THERAPIST: (laugh)
CLIENT: But (laugh) I feel like that's a bad road to go down. I was – you know when you're like tea time with family and they always say the most interesting thing like five minutes before you have to leave.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: So it's like you can't just say sorry, I have to go right now, but. Yeah.
So I don't know if I told you that Candace and I used to have a blog together. It was like short lived, 2011, like late 2011. Basically we were just like, we miss talking with each other. Let's have a blog about telling each other about the things we're working on. [00:00:51]
But so that kind of has been defunct for a while now and I actually forgot it existed until recently. I found the uplink and I'm like oh yeah, I remember this whole period in my life. But so she posted to it again today. And I talked to her and she has stuff she wants to write about. And I have stuff I want to write about, so we're going to ask each one. [00:01:13]
So yeah, I mean we're going to trade it.
THERAPIST: Well that's great.
CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) It's, I don't know, it's strange like looking back at it and looking at the things that I wrote as a PhD student. It's like part of me feels really cut off from that self and part of me feels like yes, this is exactly who I am. [00:01:54]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Um (long pause) I had a conversation with James this morning. He tends to get up like 45 minutes or an hour before I do. And so by the time that I'm like eating breakfast and showered, he's like has eaten breakfast, has had a cup or two of coffee, a little decaffeinated. Has been like reading through the news headlines and so has read a couple of things. So he tends to be like, let me talk to you about this really interesting news story. [00:02:45]
And I it takes me like, it takes me a while to reconcile myself to still be I'm alive in the morning still.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: So (laugh) like I don't want to talk about your news stories. [00:02:58]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: I don't want to be here. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah, it's not exactly like a marriage of the minds at that moment.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: So –
THERAPIST: You're saying you feel really low when you get up, or you're just -
CLIENT: Yeah, like I just it's not as if I dread going through another day. And it seems like it's kind of separate from the rest of my mood. Because I feel like that when I can predict that the day is going to be absolutely horrible and I also feel like that now. [00:03:41]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: When I can predict that actually today's not going to be that bad, like [00:03:44]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Usually things are good. I still just like just like fuck. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: This again. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: And I think that's probably why I've been sleeping so late, it's like [00:04:00]
THERAPIST: Wait, I'm sorry, let's back up. What medicines are you taking now?
CLIENT: None.
THERAPIST: None. Okay.
CLIENT: I'm just taking Synthroid.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: And like Vitamin D and fish oil.
THERAPIST: Sometimes those kind of like things that happen at certain times of the day are related to when you're taking meds.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But clearly that's not the case.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Because you're not taking meds.
CLIENT: I'm not taking them anymore.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So I don't know.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: So –
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Health I've just been like just, as we've talked about, super touchy. Like everything hurts my feelings. Like James disagreeing with me at all in any way hurts my feelings. [00:04:56]
And so what I've been doing, like what I've tended to do is just like try to get out of the conversation, like sort of shut down. So we talked about that and I sort of explained why I was doing those things. I recognized this as actually good, and I'm working on it. [00:05:18]
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Yeah, I sort of feel like it's better to leave the conversation then it is to beat myself up for having my feelings hurt about something. [00:05:33]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Like I feel like it's a step to probably not (laugh)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: To not say well it just doesn't matter that your feelings are hurt. [00:05:40]
THERAPIST: You're really taking care of yourself.
CLIENT: Yeah. But you know, I'm not actually to the point where I can you know completely accept the thing you said really hurt my feelings. God forbid I do that, so –
THERAPIST: Right. [00:05:57]
CLIENT: You know this morning I was like trying to make some point and he just kind of derailed what I was saying.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like I was he didn't like cigarettes causing cancer as an analogy to people texting while driving. That's like you know, we know that it's not a good idea, but people do it anyway. Like knowing education isn't enough to keep people from doing it. [00:06:28]
He was like well you know, they say a cigarette – and then he was like got me into this thing of like why do cigarettes actually cause cancer. And I was like oh my God, I don't, I don't fucking care. Like that's not what I want to be talking about. (laugh) [00:06:42]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: So like yes, I get that medical consent just doesn't actually mean that something is true like I get that people have been wrong before.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But that's not the point. [00:06:57]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: So I just kind of stopped talking. And then he was like bang. He's like this is what you just stopped talking. Why did you do it then, fuck. That hurt my feelings. [00:07:13]
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: This morning I left. I feel like this is one of my life together story, but I don't (pause)
THERAPIST: I wonder if he even noticed that to tell it, could have maybe often say something hurtful about something. [00:07:44]
CLIENT: Probably.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I sort of feel like it's all very interesting. [00:07:56]
THERAPIST: How so?
CLIENT: So I was like I just started telling him that the more, it's one of those things where like when you're telling a story, you can't stop or you feel like you can't stop because you're already in the middle of it. But as you keep going, you're like oh my God, this is not interesting or relevant at all. [00:08:15]
I don't know. I don't know why I'm such a – sort of scattered today. I'm inclined to talk about that conversation I had with Candace. (long pause) [00:08:53]
I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job of reintroducing myself to life one step at a time. Rather than say I need to be all the way better right now. But it's really hard. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Yeah. That's a big deal.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: To be letting yourself do it step by step that way.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:09:26]
THERAPIST: Are you feeling more or less okay with that?
CLIENT: More or less. [00:09:32]
THERAPIST: All right.
CLIENT: Okay. (pause) In some ways it helps to have had things be so bad. Because I can always say well better this than being dead. (laugh) [00:09:56]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Um (long pause) [00:10:46]
THERAPIST: Well I'm pretty understanding that you're you know shaking and that [00:10:56]
CLIENT: Um-hum. (pause)
THERAPIST: You're not long out of feeling really, really horrendous. And you're like making an effort to do things, to sort of get your life back. Which entails risk.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:26]
And I'm sort of tentative about doing those things, because you know I feel like a calendar. I'm about due for another major downturn. [00:11:42]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: But I don't feel like it's
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Going to get directly and dramatically worse. But you know, it's been like two weeks maybe. [00:12:00]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: It seems it's about time. (pause) Yeah, and I am nervous about starting work.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Because that's going to be a big stress. And I don't know how I'm going to deal with it.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: I don't know, I have no idea. [00:12:32]
(long pause) [00:13:00]
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I feel like it somehow I feel like it will be worse for everybody around me that I you know start to be back in touch and cook more and you know, be part of my life again, and then stop again abruptly. (pause) Yeah. (pause) I worry about that. (pause) [00:14:00]
(continued pause) [00:14:25]
You know I worry about coming in here and some day's I'm like today I'm doing really well and I just kind of sit down and chat. And some days I sit down and like collapse. And I don't I mean maybe you can predict that, but I don't feel like I'm very good at signaling like, how I was yesterday isn't necessarily any indication of how I'm going to be today. [00:14:52]
THERAPIST: Um-hum. (pause) A lot can feel like a consequence that you're referring to that in here.
CLIENT: I just feel like that must be a strain on you.
THERAPIST: I see. If I don't know what I'm going to get on any given day.
CLIENT: You know I know, I know it's a strain on James. (pause) [00:15:48]
But I don't (pause) I don't know now how to – he and I haven't had much luck with being consistently cheerful. (laugh) I don't think that I'm good at being consistently dour either, like -
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: I'm just I'm not good at, so. (pause) [00:16:31]
THERAPIST: It's almost as though you're worried about not being in control of your moods.
CLIENT: (laugh) What? (laugh)
THERAPIST: And I guess that's now what you really thinking of yourself. You're concerned about the effect that will have on the people around you not so much that, which is sort of like a step away from saying well I should be more in control of everything. Like I'm not, and it's going to put – and that's stressful for other people. [00:17:12]
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah. And one of the unintended benefits of being really, really sick was that people stopped counting on me. [00:17:32]
THERAPIST: Un-huh.
CLIENT: And that's you know, I feel like people are counting on me again.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: I have no faith in my own ability either to follow through on that. [00:17:50]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: But what else can I do? [00:18:01]
(long pause) [00:19:00]
CLIENT: As with so many other things, basically I just don't want to be like my mom.
THERAPIST: I see. But hardly ever hated her?
CLIENT: Hum. That's interesting. Really? Hum.
THERAPIST: Yeah I have apart from knowing like some facts about as when you were a kid, and from descriptions of your recent interactions with her, very little sense of her. [00:19:51]
CLIENT: Huh. Huh. [00:19:57]
THERAPIST: Like -
CLIENT: So like -
THERAPIST: Somewhat like on those with your dad I think, I'm sure there's a lot I don't know about him, but.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I have not what a feel.
CLIENT: Hum. Well (sigh) she's really optimistic. And she like has upswings and a kind of completely you know make huge changes to her life and say this is, you know, this is going to fix everything. [00:20:39]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: You know often that was like a boyfriend.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: I you know I remember, I don't remember the first Christmas after she left my dad. She like she in retrospect like so I think she just like didn't have any money at all. And so she got like a big, like a couple of like bare branches and decorated them. And like made all of these homemade decorations because she had to have new decorations because all of her decorations were with my dad. [00:21:22]
And just completely carried that day for us. Like it was just a really nice Christmas.
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: I feel like I feel like every time I talk to her it would be like things are all better now. And then you know, the next time I try to talk to her, she would not be there. [00:21:57]
THERAPIST: I haven't heard you just like where you started, like the bare branches and decorations?
CLIENT: Yeah, and it was really beautiful actually. (pause)
THERAPIST: I believe it was. It struck me in a more sad sort of way. [00:22:26]
CLIENT: Yeah, (laugh) it was pretty sad. You know she also like had no furniture in the apartment at that point. [00:22:32]
THERAPIST: I guess I mean what? [00:22:38]
CLIENT: (laugh) No, I'm thinking yeah, this is a pretty depressing image I guess.
THERAPIST: I guess I wasn't thinking about what she feels like to you.
CLIENT: Hum.
THERAPIST: Like decorations are positive, happy and like shiny and optimistic. And like something very bare about the kind of actions and the kind of relationship you had. [00:23:14]
CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) For the past like, at least for past year, I think for the past two or three years, every time I've talked to her or had any interaction with her, -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I've said like it's so good to hear from you. Like, but she never calls me. And like, I don't call her very often either. Like that, but [00:24:01]
(long pause) You know at this point it's I can so vividly like imagine the overwhelming fear of rejection, that is why she doesn't ever call me. But I don't fucking care. Like I -
THERAPIST: Wait. Sorry. The overall rejection is why she doesn't call you?
CLIENT: Like she's just so afraid of being rejected by me. [00:24:35]
THERAPIST: Oh, okay.
CLIENT: She's so afraid of it.
THERAPIST: Oh she is?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:24:45]
THERAPIST: But, at least you actually know.
CLIENT: Oh, yeah but now I feel just depressed that you didn't know. I don't know. Yeah I think the others – the time in college where I told her for I think for the first time in my life that I was angry with her. And we just didn't speak again for six months. Like that was [00:25:14]
THERAPIST: Whoa.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Six months?
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause) Did I not tell you about that? She like -
THERAPIST: I think you made it clear that you can't get angry at her, or I mean that if you get angry at her it doesn't go well.
CLIENT: Yeah (laugh)
THERAPIST: I mean I sort of know that in general, but that she doesn't say what is going on with you or how you feel, I knew that. But I didn't know that that particular like instant pattern. [00:25:48]
CLIENT: Yeah. She we'd been driving up to get some of her stuff from school.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: She had just graduated from college so we were getting some of her stuff back. [00:26:04]
THERAPIST: Where did she go to school?
CLIENT: Same place Jason goes.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Uh-huh. So we'd been driving up to bring some of her stuff back. And we were like three quarters of the way there, from like Virginia to New York. So it was like an all – we'd been in the car all day. It was late night. And she called my dad and said she was in the middle of a custody fight with papa. [00:26:31]
THERAPIST: Over Jason?
CLIENT: Over Jason. And she said, you took Jason out of the state like I'm going to arrest you. Or I'm going to have you arrested. So he said okay, turned the car around and drove back. And I talked to her like the next day and it was just an awful summer anyway because like papa had basically gotten fired from his job. And didn't have a new job yet. [00:27:00]
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Yeah, he ended up leaving his church and -
THERAPIST: I thought it was the same congregation on the way.
CLIENT: No he was in one congregation, for about like five to when I, like my first year in college. I mean my second year in college.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: And then he ended up moving after that.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: It was like it wasn't where he wanted to be for that parish wasn't where he wanted to be forever anyway. [00:27:29]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But he ended up leaving. He ended up getting pushed out by like a small group of very vocal people who hated his guts.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Which is apparently not very uncommon in churches.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Depressingly enough. [00:27:40]
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: But so like he was leaving in kind of a bad way or a rocky way and didn't have any job yet. And was like getting married at some point. I don't remember whether it was marriage or not. But like Joanne was still in Miami like everything was really up in the air. [00:27:58]
And so I called mom, and I talked to mom and said you know, I'm really angry with you about this. I didn't – I don't think I I think basically what I said was just I'm angry with you about this. And that was it. [00:28:15]
But it just felt to me like a spiteful thing to do. Like she didn't she knew that papa wasn't absconding with Jason. Like he was we were going on a road trip for two days. Like she knows my dad. We go on road trips. It's what we do. [00:28:30]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Like those -
THERAPIST: Like how often would she see him anyway?
CLIENT: I don't know. But it wasn't like he we weren't going on a road trip during a time that Jason was supposed to be with her.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It was just she was just being mean and it's –
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: What I meant was that you know I had 16 straight hours in the car. (laugh) [00:28:57]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And so it can all be stuff that was she was supposed to get back was mine. And I never got like, I had a king sized bed that she'd borrowed because I did have a place for a king sized bed in college. And she was off campus.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And like we never got it back. [00:29:18]
And yeah I said I'm upset with you. And that was it. Like it was just she just said okay and then that was it for like six months. And then we never talked about it again. Like she eventually I think she was like driving through with the guy she was seeing and she sent me an e-mail and said you know, let's go out for lunch. And eventually I did and I brought James. And James and her boyfriend talked and that was probably best. (laugh) [00:29:59]
(pause) I think she just, I think she's just so afraid like every interaction I have with her feels like she's just terrified that I'm going to reject her. And (long pause) I don't know what to do with that. (pause) You know I'm not going to reject her. [00:31:00]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: I have decided that I want her in my life. But at the same time like I feel so overwhelmingly rejected that I don't (pause) (sigh) yeah. It's like for both of us it's this huge – it's a huge test of strength to call the other person and neither of us makes it. (laugh) [00:31:39]
(long pause) You know and for her also, it's like she seems like she's doing a lot better, but to me she always seemed like she was doing a lot better. And so I don't (pause) like how much can I invest in this person who may or may not be there the next time I call. Or who may or may not but yeah. [00:32:33]
(long pause) This way I remember her as kind of a void in my life. Like I remember wanting to be with her much more than I really would her when I was a kid. [00:32:57]
THERAPIST: So like that's for not having heard more from you about her to give me a feel for her, about how she used you as well you know?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Like from the part that I've heard, like there's space where she should be right?
CLIENT: Well yeah. (pause) She used to take us shopping a lot. (pause) It seems like there would be long periods of time, I think she was at home now. I'm almost certain she's an impulsive spender. Because there would be like longer periods of time where like she didn't have any money at all. [00:33:50]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And would be like let's see how many ways we can eat beans tonight. I'm like okay. And then she would like take us shopping, like buy us a whole lot of clothes. [00:34:02]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And which was good in terms of like that was where I got almost all of my clothes as a kid. But (pause) you just never knew. (long pause) [00:34:45]
I guess I am I am afraid of being like her in that I feel like I also, I always believed like things are going to be find from here on out, when things start being okay. And I'm like okay, it's over. It's never, never. But it's like the idea that you know if it's not actually ever over it's so unbearable. (long pause) [00:35:28]
THERAPIST: The one I heard much more often from you is, it's never going to be different. It's never going to be better. And don't you or anybody else fucking tell me otherwise.
CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah.
THERAPIST: Which I think is probably very closely related. (laughing) [00:35:41]
CLIENT: (laugh) Huh. Huh. (long pause) [00:36:00]
(pause) Yeah, I had a really hard time seeing (sigh) where I am at that moment as where I am at that moment and I'm still like (pause) this is the way it's always going to be.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, at this point I'm pretty much like like well I guess I'm just not the person that's warm. [00:36:42]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Which (sigh) you know other than like wishing I were dead when I get up in the morning, this is pretty much true.
THERAPIST: Um-hum. (pause) [00:37:00]
CLIENT: (continued long pause) But I don't remember in the evening that I don't want to get up in the morning.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Why have I been sleeping soundly? Ah, what's wrong with you? [00:37:38]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: (laugh)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (pause) Better then when all where she went deer hunting. [00:37:57]
THERAPIST: Deer hunting?
CLIENT: Um-hum.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: With a bow.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: She made deer sausage. It was actually really good. (laugh) And I like (pause) [00:38:22]
THERAPIST: Was that a boyfriend related activity, or something? I really don't get that.
CLIENT: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I think actually that was a guy that she really liked activity. I don't think ended up like –
THERAPIST: They didn't date?
They didn't date that I know of. But that's like a whole other thing.
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:38:46]
She was working at a horse farm and he was like one of the trainers. And for yeah, I think a couple of years, she used to like actually ride the horses in the morning. Like do the morning thing for the horse farm in exchange for some work. [00:39:15]
(long pause) He was really creepy.
THERAPIST: Um-hum. How so?
CLIENT: He was like ten years younger than she was I think. Somewhat younger. There was one of my one of those childhood memories I like to repress. But she got him to give me riding lessons for a while. And after like the first couple, she took me shopping for sports bras telling me that he had said that I needed to get a sports bra because it was distracting to him. [00:40:21]
And that's like – it's you know one of those things that you don't you can't tell when you're 12 that like that's really not appropriate to say like for anybody to say any of those things. (laugh) Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I don't like talking about that. [00:41:00]
(long pause) But it is one of the things that I am bitter about is like being used as part of her liking this guy.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know and then like I really liked riding. I really wanted to learn.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: And then you know, lost and stopped abruptly after a couple of months I think because she had a fight with him.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: And then that was it. Yeah. (long pause) [00:41:57]
THERAPIST: Right I was beginning to think, really there was something traumatic about him being distracted by how a 13 year old rider looked.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I think. (long pause) [00:42:39]
CLIENT: Yeah. People started honking at me when I walked along the side of the road when I was like 11.
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: And so (sigh) it's just not fair. [00:42:57]
THERAPIST: I guess we have to talk to that. I mean like I'm good.
CLIENT: Yeah, I know it's somebody I know. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Well you're a guy your mother was interested in, it sounded like she had some kind of relationship with, or was close to in some way. Close enough that he was offering you riding lessons and she was doing all these things to try to impress him or get closer to him. And it didn't occur to him not to say it that way to her. And it didn't occur to her not to say it that way to you. I mean [00:43:26]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Like it's one thing if some random person driving by, like that's not good that, they didn't know you. Whatever. Like this is someone she was interested in.
CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:43:41]
(long pause) It's feels like mid-range in terms of level of sketchiness that my mom's dated. [00:43:58]
THERAPIST: Oh really, she kind of -
CLIENT: She can pick them. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Uh-huh.
CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause)
THERAPIST: We just have a couple of minutes. I had been scheduling -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: So like I had you set up at the beginning. Two things, one, I'm afraid that I've given a couple of weeks, if that doesn't work it's fine. But could you possibly come on Monday this coming week and the following week at 11:45, instead of 12:45?
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:44:43]
THERAPIST: Okay. And the another thing is kind of up to you. But I always tell you to be in on, a Thursday, but this coming week, I think usually this coming, I could meet at 7:30 if you'd like.
CLIENT: Um I think what would be good actually.
THERAPIST: Yes. Okay. Good.
CLIENT: Yeah. If that's okay with you.
THERAPIST: Yeah, it is. It's fine.
CLIENT: Thanks.
THERAPIST: Sure. [00:45:16]
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