TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Essentially what I was going to talk to you about anyway. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly. You can do that faster than me.

CLIENT: Well I think you need to push your cord before you open the door.

THERAPIST: Right, yeah. I'm taping it yeah.

CLIENT: I'm like uh-huh, right. Anyway. So yesterday was Mother's Day.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which was not a good day for me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm sure, shockingly. Yeah. But the sermon at church was about Mother's Day.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like it's touching and all, but not easy for me. [00:00:45]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: It was fine. I talked to my mom. I think she was doing pretty well.

THERAPIST: Good. [00:00:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Her dog died.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: She was an old dog. Like she died of old age. But she died like in April when she died. (pause) She said that she's thinking about getting another dog, but you know it is kind of weighing whether she wants the taking care part of another dog versus actually having the dog. [00:01:50]

Yeah. I think I'm sort of like my mom's go to person to talk about therapy with at this point, which is okay. (laugh) I mean it's yeah, I also sort of have a one track mind these days and so like, I don't know how I feel about that. I don't know if I'm fine with it. (pause) [00:02:21]

I feel sort of surprised to hear you say that you didn't have a good sense of my mom. I'm not sure why, because I guess I don't really talk about her very much, right?

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I don't know I felt like I had talked about her more.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) [00:03:00]

(continued pause) It feels like when I talk to her it's (pause) (sigh) I feel like I'm just I feel like I'm very aware of how hard it is to be, I want to say be assertive, but in some ways it's just like be a person in the world. And so I feel like I get sucked into like being her cheerleader and that, and like I don't know. [00:04:03]

I sort of resent that I sort of don't like sort of don't – sort of wish that I didn't resent it. So like we were talking yesterday about like subway manners or – and she said – you know she was saying that she didn't take the subway anymore because I don't remember actually what she was talking about, or what we were talking about. [00:04:26]

But I remember I like – I disagreed with her, not in a big way, but I said well I take this approach when she said that she'd taken that approach. And she said well, yeah, I guess, I guess the way I was thinking about it isn't right. And I said well, and introduced a way that like reconciled the two. And said what about this, and she's like okay. And she's clearly like super relieved to be like okay, I'm not wrong here. Like I know. [00:04:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (long pause) The angry was wrong.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

(very long pause) [00:05:44]

CLIENT: I have before (pause) I don't know I feel like I have to take care of her and I feel like I should take care of her.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean I feel pretty okay about that a lot of the time.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like – (laugh) I was going to say, that's something that I'm pretty good at. And then I was like hum, I wonder how I got good at that. (laugh) [00:06:17]

THERAPIST: (laugh) Quit coincidentally.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I heard just that you feel like you have to be just in step with her. Like it isn't exactly in step with her or with what she needs. I haven't pushed far on that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:06:41]

THERAPIST: And that you probably feel like somewhat tied and necessarily focused in the moment a pretty strong sense of things, of my intention, and especially when you're talking with her about having to be that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, I definitely like open a beer when I call my mom. (laugh) [00:07:05]

THERAPIST: I can see that. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (laugh) But I was like, this is something I need to drink. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I just feel bad about how much I resent it and just (pause) the priest who was preaching that like, was you know, talking about her mother and the one of the things she said was that like she knew what I needed before I asked. [00:07:55]

But I kind of follow what's next for you. (growling) (laugh) (pause) Yeah I just don't, I don't like Mother's Day because I don't like not being able to be happy for other people who have good relationships with their mothers. [00:08:22]

You know most of the time I can be happy for other people. It's just like it doesn't, doesn't exactly work. (laugh) It doesn't work for everybody. Anyway I don't like not being able to be happy that I can like take care of my mom and do all the things that she needs. (pause) [00:09:00]

(continued long pause) [00:09:44]

I've been trying to write about the ECT things -

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And it's hard. It's like I don't usually I either find it much easier to write then I am. [00:09:57]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I don't know if I'm sad because like I haven't written for a long time or whether I – because it's just plain, it's hard for me to write about it. (pause) Are you hot?

THERAPIST: No, are you?

CLIENT: A little bit, yeah. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

(pause) [00:10:41]

THERAPIST: And what was it about it that made it hard to write on the ECT?

CLIENT: Well do the thing that I do when I'm trying to write an academic paper. And I'm just – like I open the screen that I'm writing about and then I go and do something else on my computer. I'm like just find myself doing other things when I intend to be writing without even realizing it. [00:11:11]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: (pause) You know I have a pretty good sense of like what I want to talk about. So – which you know usually I'm like a I'm at the stage where usually I kind of feel like a blog post, like something I can put out on the blog you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: I think about things and kind of mull over it in my head and figure out where I want to get to, or where I think I want to get to. And I don't necessarily like outline on paper, but I have a sense of it. And then I just sit down and write it. And like sometimes it ends up going someplace entirely differently than I expected, but I just go. [00:11:59]

And I've been working on this for like three days and I'm not, you know, more even close to the point that I'm trying to get to. I've talked about it with James a lot. I think the ECT was about as hard or harder for him then it was for me.

THERAPIST: Hum.

CLIENT: He – or at least I think at this point, he's angrier about it then I am. He's really angry at the ECT doctors.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. [00:12:42]

CLIENT: I just sort of feel like this is one more thing that one more piece of bad luck for me, you know that it seems like most people, have positive things to say about it. And they feel like it has helped them. And people were trying to help me and you know, it just really backfired. [00:13:24]

But I don't know. (pause) What I want to get to is to (pause) I feel like one of the things that I wasn't prepared for and that the ECT psychiatrist didn't take into account was like how much I would lose myself. [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And how much I feel like I've continued to lose myself and like losing my memory. But (pause) it seems like they were pretty okay with me not being myself anymore, as long as I didn't want to kill myself. [00:14:30]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: And I'm not okay with that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I knew that was the choice, I just wasn't aware I was making it. [00:14:42]

THERAPIST: Right. And did not give some kind of informed consent to it beforehand?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I gave I sort of pictured short term memory loss as like I would forget where my keys were.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:15:00]

THERAPIST: And how much was so plain and simple.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (long pause) But I'm like I'm very used to forgetting where my keys are. I'm like I am a forgetful person, and I'm like oh, well this will be more of the same. [00:15:22]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it's like there's this continuity itself that isn't disturbed by the regular forgetfulness that was just really broken by the ECT and I don't quite know why. (pause) But anyway I can talk about it, I just can't write it down. [00:15:55]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: The way you describe it, it has some characteristics of like a traumatic event.

CLIENT: Hum. How so?

THERAPIST: Well, like memory disturbance that like disturbs the simple stuff, the way it sort of unravels a whole bunch of things.

CLIENT: Hum. [00:16:43]

THERAPIST: Like the sense of disintegration that goes along with it, and the difficulty of reintegration.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:16:55]

THERAPIST: Those things are like trauma, or like when it happens.

CLIENT: Hum. I didn't know that. [00:17:02]

THERAPIST: That's a trauma, yeah.

CLIENT: Good thing to know that. (pause) Well the hardest thing for me is like not remembering where any of my clothes came from. I don't know why that should be hard. Like why that should be frightening for me. But it's like all of the history of like the tangible things that I use in my life from day to day was just gone.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I would ask James – I was just asking James where pretty much all of like our kitchen utensils came from. [00:17:49]

THERAPIST: Right. Like this we got for our wedding from the so and sos. This we bought that time at Tags, because blah, blah, blah.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Things like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And some of it I remember, like the stuff that – it seems like the stuff I have had for much longer, or the stuff that I had a bigger emotional charge, like I remember that Candace gave me this teapot because it's like such a nice gift, and Candace's the best. And you know it's like exactly the perfect gift for me, and so you know, she really knows me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I remember it like the next day. [00:18:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah. So that was enough to help you remember it.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it was like our tea kettle, our electric kettle just like appeared on our counter one day. Why do we have an electric kettle? I don't know. (laugh) [00:18:44]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. That wasn't good I like yeah, I remember that (pause) like I didn't remember I had a clock.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And (long pause) (sigh) I don't know how much of it is the ECT and how much of it is like that I have just been not thinking about the last couple of years, or the last few months. Like actively not thinking about it. [00:19:54]

But I remember like James was asking me the other day about well about the memory loss and it occurred to me like I don't really remember anything about Brown. Like I remember very little. I remember that I took Samarian. [00:20:15]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I remember like sitting while I was there, and studying. But I (pause) I don't remember any of the papers I wrote. I don't remember like I ran into another person from my department last week with Joshua, when I was with Joshua. [00:20:46]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I remembered him when I saw him, but I'd completely forgotten that he even existed.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I think it would be a thing of if I went back and looked at my transcripts, I would be able to say, okay, that class, I remember what that class was about, but. [00:21:09]

THERAPIST: The subconscious that is not much more because of the ECT then the refreshing.

CLIENT: Huh. Okay.

THERAPIST: I mean.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: People do repress stuff and sometimes it's pretty dramatic and -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It can go along with you know, being quite depressed and having a very closed time. But it's not, at least I have heard especially before the ECT, not so much yourself. Not like you would talk about things that happened at William and Mary, and it's like forgot, what classes you took, or what happened at all to your [00:21:45]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All things being equal, or you know thing from, even from high school, or undergrad. I mean you know when you talk about things were socially as an undergrad, or some of the stuff you studied, or what it was like teaching. I mean there's not a quality of your having forgotten a lot of it as you talk about it, and with some people there is, and that's just whatever. It's kind of a tie off.. [00:22:11]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: But it hasn't seemed that way to me with you.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So in my – I'm conscious that it's more of the ECT then like the disruption of the discussion itself and the repression.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Sure I mean there are times I guess where you like, you kind of forget what we talked about from week to week. And that is more like repression and during ECT it was like ECT. [00:22:34]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: But you know some of that you're forgetting the thing that charged and then like next time or a few times later, or a -

CLIENT: (laugh)

THERAPIST: I think that sounds like, seems more like repression to me.

CLIENT: So can I ask?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:22:50]

CLIENT: I was, I guess what I was picturing was where like you don't, when you don't think about something, that it just kind of falls out. Like it's not like you're trying not to think about it, but like I'm just thinking about in terms of forgetting languages actually. [00:23:11]

Like if you don't practice a language, it just goes away. And it will come back easily, more easily than it did the first time, but it just -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: If you don't do it every day.

THERAPIST: But it is though, there's like a point to this.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: You get rusty and -

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't I -

THERAPIST: If you don't practice that.

CLIENT: But okay. My language is -

THERAPIST: Anyway languages are another thing.

CLIENT: (laughing) Sorry.

THERAPIST: You don't need to really know the language, but it's okay.

CLIENT: And is that like the sort of thing that you're talking about with repression? [00:23:46]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yes.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Repression is where you get the kind of charge and anxiety that go along with things that have happened, and you like forget them more than you would if they didn't have that kind of charge and anxiety [00:24:09]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Related with them.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So (pause) yeah, I mean that's sort of making a close example of therapy. But I mean can you – do you sort of have a sense or it makes sense that there have been times where it's been hard to remember things we've talked about? [00:24:33]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or parts of conversations?

CLIENT: So I don't I don't like it's seems like therapy at this point is a really strange thing for me, because like I know that we like have talked about a lot of things, and like have this history, but I can't remember most of them. [00:24:55]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I feel like – like I often don't know if I'm telling you something for the second or fifth time.

THERAPIST: I see. And –

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: How much is this ongoing? In other words, will you remember things like is that true of things that you have told me within the last two months? As well as things during and before the ECT?

CLIENT: Um?

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it's less true. [00:25:36]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It's about less true. But so like I think that last week or the week before we were talking about something and like brought up something that seemed important at the end of the day, or at the end of the session, and I was like it will come up again. And then I left. But I can't remember what that is anymore. (laugh) [00:25:53]

And so like I remember that happening -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't remember what we were talking about.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:25:58]

CLIENT: I started like in the last month or two like I'll write down, like I'll journal about what we talked about right afterwards.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So like because I don't want to forget. (laugh) [00:26:13]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And you know usually when I like want to come think through it again -

THERAPIST: So you might notice it's really just a component of explanation of -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Repression. I just think there are times where it's harder to organize in your head what we talked about and write it down and sometimes it's easier. [00:26:36]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: After a period, do you find yourself getting either a little more lost or have a little more trouble putting it together?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'll like start writing and then I it's like I I'll start, and but I can't get through the story because I'm thinking about something else. [00:26:52]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So that has to keep pulling back.

THERAPIST: Are we only a little bit like a little bit of introductory repression. Even if you sort of manage to remember and write it down, like you're having to kind of overcome some sort of resistance, or you're having to kind of push a little bit to get it? [00:27:09]

CLIENT: That's really interesting and scary. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Oh, How?

CLIENT: I don't know I just – I just hadn't really ever spent very much time thinking about memory.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I always, you know I'm a student, right. I sort of assume that my memory will do what I want it to.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I'm a student, so I should know better. (laugh) But I'm just going to -

THERAPIST: Okay. But that's a little more of what repression is like.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:27:44]

THERAPIST: It's that as opposed to like the languages example of like just kind of falling away. [00:27:51]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: If you have use them. (pause) And I guess what I'm saying is I (pause)

CLIENT: That seems different.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that seems different and maybe I guess I imagined you can think of people, your mom may be like this, although it may be hard to tell what's left to compare. But you know there are people who have a style where they just they really lose stuff like that quickly, or it really is like it never happened if it's charged. [00:28:49]

CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh) Yeah, my mom's exactly like that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. The feel is not that she sort of has it in mind, but consciously doesn't want to talk about it. It feels more like it's just gone.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and I I mean you repress things like the rest of us, but I don't and you know you're mother's probably at the more extreme end of that. But I don't see you at least so far, as having that style that could present that for me. Including, my point being, to support my hypothesis that you're difficulty remembering things really over the last couple of years is more to do with the ECT then it is to deal with the acts of repression. [00:29:40]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I mean there are cases in which, I mean especially during a period of bad depression become a lot more prevalent then memory just being locked away.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:29:46]

THERAPIST: But I didn't have that you know, with you really -

CLIENT: Not really.

THERAPIST: Before the ECT.

CLIENT: I mean I haven't noticed it in myself.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It wasn't, like it wasn't harder for me to – like it was harder for me to study when things were really bad. [00:30:03]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because I couldn't focus. But it wasn't I wouldn't it wasn't harder for me to remember things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean again, other than just kind of being kind of out of it and more off kilter and having just more trouble remembering -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, being depressed, or you know emotionally feeling more all over the place and so just pushing a lot of stuff out that you were more like repressive. [00:30:28]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But you know, it seems like it's gone along much more for you with the ECT.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that (pause) there's some combination of how profound that effect has been and what that means to you. That seems to me is like hard for us to get our heads around, which I suspect is part of the – you know hard for you to write about. Like the thing is hard for you to write about because I can't get my head around either. [00:31:20]

CLIENT: (laugh)

THERAPIST: You think it's hard for you to get your head around -

CLIENT: Yeah I kind of -

THERAPIST: Things are hard to write about, and I also feel like there's a you know, there's been some sense of that. But I don't have -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That.

CLIENT: Yeah. I keep thinking like if I'd known that this was going to happen would I have done it? And you know partly I say no, absolutely not. And part I think I feel like I knew that there was a risk, like I knew that it had risks. I knew that I didn't know what was going to happen to me. I was pretty desperate. [00:32:10]

(pause) You know, I thought I was going to die.

THERAPIST: Um-hum. Yeah. I can imagine you doing this out of desperation. I don't think it crossed your mind as the effects not to, and I know not mind how profound the effect it would have. Like I -

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I think that was pretty far off if you knew that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:32:43]

THERAPIST: But I know you, I also know that you were quire desperate.

CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) I just wonder if like what – what do I not remember that I don't even know about has been lost?

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: (long pause) Like why did I start coming to see you? Like where, how did that happen? I don't remember. (laugh) [00:33:34]

THERAPIST: (laugh)

CLIENT: Like I saw a reference in my journal to somebody I was seeking before, and like I forgot he existed.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I don't I don't understand it. (pause) I think that was the real question. I want to know. (laugh) [00:34:01]

THERAPIST: Okay. All right, yeah, and I'm happy to as you know like some questions I don't answer straight, but on questions like this, I'm happy to – I was a little inclined to make a joke about – [00:34:14]

CLIENT: That's fine.

THERAPIST: You know how sort of like in the British navy, people would like go have a few drinks down at the bar and there would be a recruiter buying you drinks. And the next thing you know, they'd wind up on a ship and they don't remember anything.

CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah. Oh (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, what happened was I mean you were – did you remember James, now having heard his name again?

CLIENT: Vaguely. But like I couldn't remember whether he was Brown or William and Mary. But you told me he was Brown. [00:34:46]

THERAPIST: He is Brown, you met him, and he I mean he sort of – do you know what he looks like?

CLIENT: Yes, pretty much. [00:35:04]

THERAPIST: Let's see, well you right, so you mentioned also the other day, I think that you didn't remember having been in the hospital for the first time not in 2012, but 2011.

CLIENT: Yeah, that was kind of strange.

THERAPIST: And so I think that happened while you were seeing James.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I don't know exactly. I don't know if you started seeing him when you got out of the hospital.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:35:26]

THERAPIST: I actually don't know, I don't know some things that happened around those hospitalizations, but I know you were worse then and I assumed they were plans to make sure of your safety.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And you went up there, and I don't know if you started taking it after you got out, or before, but you saw him a while and that was like late 2011.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:35:48]

THERAPIST: And I think he felt pretty good about your remaining at school.

CLIENT: Yeah I know he let me stay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think he did. And I'm imagining because this is how it usually goes, that he couldn't come see you frequently enough, or for a long enough -

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: Stretch, so they sort of -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You were clearly having some issues. [00:36:14]

CLIENT: So the people there tend to have like openings like once every couple of weeks.

THERAPIST: Right. And that clearly wasn't going to do it. And so he referred you to me.

CLIENT: Okay. All right.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and I started seeing you not too long before you decided to take the semester off, the spring semester.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: of 2012.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay. [00:36:43]

THERAPIST: And then you were, I think pleased early on that I was able to take three weeks with you and that I wasn't telling you everything's going to be okay.

CLIENT: Yeah I can completely imagine now it was pretty overwhelmed. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, it did seem like people knowing recently do otherwise.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Yeah, I feel like I'm just trying to feel things back up in my head. When yourself comes back, like with a prompt, then I can't remember things again.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's the period of like when I was doing ECT, even when, because like well Candace really did that, and it snowed a whole lot, and you went and had coffee with John, like that, I still can't remember writing things.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:38:05]

CLIENT: But you know I saw Doug and then I was like where do I know him from? And it's like, oh I took Samarian with him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I sat next to him for a year in Samarian. And that sort of comes back.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) [00:38:52]

THERAPIST: I imagine (pause) there may be some overlap between what the memory loss has been like, like what kind of the subjective experience of the memory loss kind of thing. As opposed to like the fact that you don't have great vision. Sort of like between that and things about you're feeling as if you don't belong. [00:39:49]

CLIENT: Yeah. I didn't know where you were you were going with that sentence, but as you were saying, I can't really, really assimilate to like not being able to remember my mom and her assholes and [00:40:02]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Well most things there's a lot of things like you.

CLIENT: Hum. How do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well I guess with the ECT, I imagine that sort of clear, with any like -

CLIENT: Yeah (laugh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I don't really ever get the impression like, I don't get the impression that she can hold much in mind what's going on with you, or expect like or stay with that [00:40:46]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't.

THERAPIST: Much at all.

CLIENT: She's got achieve streak, but I've there's a lot of being very excited for me, and supportive of me like in the moment that I tell her about something. And then that's it. And then it goes away. [00:41:14]

THERAPIST: And it makes sense that especially earlier in childhood but in some ways it turns out with your mom that like what's happening inside of you and what you remember are like come from like how that stuff gets treated and talked about in a really different matter. It seems a lot like that. [00:41:55]

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Sort of.

THERAPIST: Okay, like I'll just be really simple, you're going to like – you're okay when you're going horseback riding, going on a picnic, going to the baseball game, or (laugh) you know learning to ride a bike, whatever it is, with one of your parents. So much of that experience started the way that all sort of feels to you, and what you remember about just as you would the way you are together with that person who's there with you. [00:42:39]

CLIENT: Right, okay.

THERAPIST: You know like, whoever's teaching you to ride a bike, you know are they excited, are they resentful? Are they engaged, or are they distracted? Is it about you, is it about them?

CLIENT: Um-hum. [00:42:49]

THERAPIST: You know, you don't know whether like -

CLIENT: Okay, that makes sense.

THERAPIST: Is it a it kind of very much happens in the conduct of the relationship.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And with the relationship sort of focus away from what's going on with you, or if you can't stay with the relationship, we lied for you, or we used you, or being about you, you get lost. [00:43:10]

CLIENT: Yeah, I like that. (long pause) [00:43:44]

THERAPIST: I think for example I like to think of it sort of like if you go to see a movie that your parents are really excited about, but something in it really scares you, but then you can't tell them because you know it's their favorite movie, and they were excited for you to see it, but it was so scary for you because of this one part where this one guy who was like, whaa, whaa, whaa, whatever. And you know so you have this whole experience of it that you can't share with them. [00:44:09]

CLIENT: Um-hum.

THERAPIST: And you're lost in that direction, I mean like, something like that, you know, or -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or you know you like you can't sort of talk about it with like it helps you to establish it for yourself.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah. (pause) I just don't remember very much of it. I remember like a lot of driving in the car, like listening to her. (pause) [00:45:04]

(long pause) And that thing with the riding with them happened right at the – it would have been right at the time where I was sort of starting to figure out that like things weren't things were a little – that she was like off. [00:45:32]

THERAPIST: Um-hum

CLIENT: That this wasn't necessarily right.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: That I wasn't quite there.

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: So yeah. Yeah I remember it like, I was just really excited to be like spending time with her and [00:45:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then when it stopped I remember like trying very hard to make it not her fault in my head.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I was like yeah. Well I had a walk a lot of time.

THERAPIST: Well you know, I have you down the same time tomorrow.

CLIENT: Okay. I'm not going to work tomorrow anyway.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay then all right, I'll still try to be in tomorrow.

CLIENT: (laughing) [00:46:33]

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