TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I'm trying to arrange so that the dog isn't home alone at night.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And Harold works Tuesdays and Thursdays. So if I could do Wednesday or (sigh), I'd rather not do Friday. But do you happen to have anything open on Wednesday evening.

THERAPIST: No. I'm so sorry.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: I have like one appointment time left total. (laughs) Or a couple of times. I don't have anything Wednesday evening. I have No I don't think I have that. This is like the only evening time I have.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: I might have something a little earlier. Would that help at all?

CLIENT: No, no, because I'm working.

THERAPIST: And I could do something like in the morning. There's one morning time.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Alright, well I'm sorry. Yeah, if anything opens up I'll let you know.

CLIENT: On Wednesday evening?

THERAPIST: I also usually finish at 5:00 on Wednesdays anyway. I may have a 4:15 time open up in a month or so. But that will be the last appointment of the day. If that opened up would that help?

CLIENT: No, because I'd have to leave work at like three something.

THERAPIST: Mm. Yeah. I'm sorry I don't have anything.

CLIENT: It's alright. I'll just play it by ear.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:01:14]

CLIENT: He usually has physical therapy in the morning and then he doesn't always come home. He goes straight to tutoring. So that means nobody is there from like eleven until when I get home, which would be like seven.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or something, six-thirty. I knew we shouldn't get a dog.

THERAPIST: (laughs) That's right. Is it a puppy or is it rescue?

CLIENT: Yeah. He's seven months old.

THERAPIST: Hm. They're a lot of work.

CLIENT: It's just the time. You know? Just the stuff like this. You know, we didn't think about it, but -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: We don't really have anybody in the neighborhood, you know, that could just come in and take him out and let him go out. So that we have to figure all that out. We will. So, where are we? (laughs, coughs, pause) [00:02:24]

THERAPIST: Well, where are you?

CLIENT: (laughs) I don't know. I just keep feeling like I'm I mean, I feel it's good talking, you know. This always helps to talk and put things in perspective. But I'm just not sure what direction I'm going in.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. In terms of what you want to work on?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I guess the big thing is, you know, all of the reasons I wanted to do this was to try and work out, which I don't know if it's possible, the sex problem. And I don't know really how to go about that though.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: What's the right place to start? You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It seems like there's a couple of issues that are really prominent for you. Like you bring up one as the focus and then you want to focus on the other. [00:03:25]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I imagine just sort of prioritizing is hard. Because last time you were really concerned about feeling angry and not knowing what to do with that anger.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: And then the time before that you were feeling like you really wanted to talk about the picking (ph) and the anxiety.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Obviously, they are all related.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well I actually think it helped just talking about the anger because I feel like I have felt a little bit better. You know, I haven't felt I have been able to just acknowledge when I'm starting to get angry and just say, "You know, what am I getting angry about?"

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I mean there's (sigh) definitely something there. It's been there forever. I just don't know what we can do here to make it better.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Other than my just looking and trying to acknowledge when I feel it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And the other good thing is Harold has an appointment with a new psycho pharmacologist. Which I'm thrilled about. [00:04:39]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because he's on about twelve medications. (coughs) So he's going to have a complete reevaluation of all his medication.

THERAPIST: Mm. Twelve medications for the pain?

CLIENT: Well it started out with the pain. So he's on oxycontin for pain. And then he has something for interim dilu (ph), something with a "D" for in between the oxycontin if he needs it.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Then he was taking Ritalin for ADD. Then he was taking -

THERAPIST: Is that something that he's always had?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's the opposite, Prisprodril (ph). Something for, something to keep him awake. (laughs) Because when he was having trouble, like when he was getting up at four o'clock in the morning and teaching and driving to school, he just was afraid he was going to, you know, fall asleep and get into an accident. But now he really likes it because it really does help him when he's starting to feel tired and drowsy. [00:05:50]

Then he takes, um, what do you call it, for anxiety. Atavan as needed. And I don't even know the others. But I know he's on like a lot of medications. And, you know, I've always been not happy about it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean the oxycontin, I'm not happy about it but I know that he needs it because I know what he's like when he doesn't have the oxycontin.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But all that other stuff I just don't Oh, and he's on something for depression. I forget which one. There's two for depression. And I just can't imagine that. All those medications don't mix up together to be something different than they're supposed to be. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I'm really glad he's going to start from square one. [00:06:54]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. That sounds like a lot of medication.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's ridiculous. And, (pause) you know, we had always hoped that (sigh) he could go off the oxycontin. And we've tried several different things but nothing really helped. He tried acupuncture, he tried some kind of Chinese massage, deep massage. Then he tried physical therapy. And he's tried, he had an implant. I forget, like electro-something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So nothing's really worked. So I think we both have to just accept that he's stuck with the oxycontin.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it would be nice if he didn't have to take fifteen other medications with it. And I think that affects, obviously it affects his moods and his just rhythm. And he's been doing better. His depression is definitely, the last couple of weeks, it seems a lot better. So that's been good. [00:08:14]

THERAPIST: Does that translate to you feeling better?

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it's hard when you're living with somebody who is just carrying around this You know, you feel it every second. (sigh) So, yes. (pause)

THERAPIST: So are you not sure what's going to help him and not sure what's going to help you too?

CLIENT: Well, I mean I don't He'll figure out what's going to help him. I just don't, I'm not sure where. I mean one of the reasons, you know, that I came and one of the reasons that Harold wanted me to come is just so that we can find some kind of intimacy back in our relationship for the last part of life. (laughs)

And I'm just not sure how. I mean, I know talking about anger helps because that comes up and it affects our relationship. But I'm not quite sure what else. You know, like sometimes I think, "Well, there really was something that I was pushing back." And sometimes I feel that. [00:09:38]

I think I told you that sometimes, not often because I think I'm just good at just putting it where I want it, but sometimes I just feel like I'm fighting this thing that will just overtake me with sadness and I just kind of feel like well maybe I should really work on figuring out what that is and get it out.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: When does it come?

CLIENT: Well it happened with the whole, when I first started going back, the sexual thing. About the possibility of having been abused. And then just there have been times where I just get really sad or I just can't stop crying and I just feel really, without any particular reason.

It doesn't happen a lot. I can't really remember the last time, but I know that it has happened throughout our relationship where I just And then there are times where I felt like there was like a line. You know? Almost like a line in the bed. [00:10:46]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And even though I feel like sometimes I want to go over and hug and I just, something doesn't let me.

THERAPIST: Does it feel like it's sort of almost like a physical sensation of being held back?

CLIENT: Yeah. Sometimes. (pause) So I guess it's back to (laughs) figuring out how to be more in touch with the part of me that can love and (pause) have intimacy. And I guess what I don't know is I guess those are the two things. It's not so many different things. It's that versus focusing on is there really something that happened to me? That if I did figure it out would that help a lot with all of this other stuff? [00:11:46]

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: Just by knowing and experience and getting it out and -

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) Is it somehow if you identified a specific cause that it would sort of release something?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. Isn't it supposed to be that once you're in touch with something (laughs), you know once you accept it, then you are able to deal with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But I think of it more as an experience than like sort of a concrete memory or event.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause)

THERAPIST: It may feel what you're in touch with ultimately is that it's unnamable.

CLIENT: Maybe that's what it is. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like well maybe I should just go get hypnotized and see if somebody can get at what's there that I'm not letting out. [00:13:05]

THERAPIST: Hm. And is it a memory or a feeling?

CLIENT: The best way I can, so far right now, for my touch (ph) when I was going to therapy specifically to deal with it, there was a chance I might have been abused. I mean it came up in that therapy. And, you know, we would talk about and she would say, "Does anything come to mind? Does any person come to mind?"

I just know that I left her office one time and I could just feel it. It was like right here. (laughs) And I just was hysterical by myself in the car and then I got into this one person that I thought just came to my mind. And he's somebody who was a family friend. And my sisters both thought he was kind of sleazy. [00:14:06]

And, you know, I couldn't really, I mean I just couldn't really think it was something happened with him, because I can't imagine I wouldn't remember it. I mean I know, you know, we did things with their family and, you know, I stayed there sometimes, a few times when my parents went away.

I just can't imagine not remembering something if something happened. But all this was happening around the time of Dana's party. And they live in Oregon but they were coming to the party. And I remember I was so nervous about them coming. And when he came into the temple I actually had an anxiety attack. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And just had to leave, walk out. But then since then I just kind of put that away. (laughs) But, yeah, there are times that it just feels like there's something that, now again like you said, it could just be sadness. It could just be because my mother wasn't there. It could be, you know, I didn't have the intimacy from my family. You know, it could be anything. But I just, it's very strong when I really work on it and really try and get in touch with it. [00:15:24]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Was the incident around your daughter's party, was that after you started talking about it or before?

CLIENT: It was while I was in therapy.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)

CLIENT: And I was honest. I shared it with my family, like doing what I was doing.

THERAPIST: Well, clearly you're carrying something very heavy and you feel that.

CLIENT: So what I do to get through my life is just not deal with it. (laughs) But I guess I'm feeling like there's a cost for that. And it's a cost that I think maybe if I don't If I can figure out some way to not have to pay it (sigh) for this, you know, my relationship with Harold, my relationship with my kids for the next, you know, twenty years or whatever, I would really like to do that. But I'm just not sure how to go about it. [00:16:37]

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, the best way I know is to talk about it and for us to try to understand it. Do you want a more specific plan of attack?

CLIENT: No, I just don't know. I guess it's just frustrating because I feel like I've tried to so many times. (sigh) You know, I've been to therapy four or five times. And I'm just not sure. I guess I fight between, you know, do I really want to do this? Or is it easier to just (laughs) continue on the way I am.

THERAPIST: Mm. "Really want to do it," meaning confront what it is that is troubling you?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: What would make you not want to do it?

CLIENT: It's hard.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's scary. It's emotional. (pause) And it may not be anything particular. [00:18:13]

THERAPIST: Well it will certainly be something. Whether it's something particular is a different thing.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It does seem like in your trying to figure something out that you're sort of, it's like you're searching out for an event or a series of events that happened.

CLIENT: Which I never really did until it came out in therapy that a lot of what I was saying pointed to the possibility that I could have been abused. But really before that I wasn't. I didn't feel that way.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: I mean I guess when it first came up, and whenever I think about it, specifics come up that kind of support that and then I kind of think that it's just not possible. I remember, I think I told you, that when this first came up that she thought it was a possibility, (coughs) I just remembered that before I ever got my period when I was young, I mean we're talking maybe ten years old-ish, I got yeast infections. [00:19:55]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, there would always be like (pause)

THERAPIST: Discharge?

CLIENT: Yes. (laughs) Thank you. You know it wasn't comfortable for a ten year old kid. And I remember going to the doctor for it and he prescribed something for it. He said it was probably a yeast infection. It was our family doctor. And that went on for quite a while.

And, you know, I never thought about it until being in therapy and thinking, "Gee, that's odd. Why did I have yeast infections." So I asked my gynecologist. Because, again, I just don't I mean, I know it happens, and I know people block things out, but I just can't imagine that something like that could happen to me and I would no recollection of it. [00:20:53]

So I just asked my gynecologist if that was common or if that was something that she thought she had heard of before. That a ten year old would have infections. And she said, "No." So it's just things just started to point to that. And I think that's when, when I focused on it and let in things that I knew were for real. Like, yes, I had yeast infections (laughs) when I was ten years old.

And, yes, I have this thing about sex. And it's not that I don't enjoy sex. It's that I just can't let go to let myself have intimacy and enjoy sex. And when all those things pointed together that's when it just sort of crescendo'd to be like, "Oh my God. Something."

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: But then I also remember after, in my early twenties, I always had yeast infections.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So maybe it's I was just prone to yeast infections. [00:22:07]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (clears throat)

THERAPIST: I guess one thing that I'm curious about is that given your experience growing up, which sounded traumatic in many ways, why sort of I mean not to say that sexual abuse isn't awful. But like why sort of an encounter of, you know, some sort of sexual abuse that you -

It sounds like you suspect that it's not like over years. Why would that outweigh or become somehow more important? You know what I mean? It seems like you feel like that would somehow be more traumatic and explain more than your entire upbringing.

CLIENT: Well it seems like it would be pretty traumatic. (laugh)

THERAPIST: I'm not saying it wouldn't be. But I guess, I mean, I don't know if you can weigh trauma quantitatively. But it seems like the totality of it, of a childhood experience, would I guess if you can quantify it, quantify it. [00:23:17]

CLIENT: I guess because I feel like, yeah, there were issues. My mother had her issues and she was not really able to connect or be there. But I guess I think, in general, we're probably one of the healthier families that I know. (laughs) We all were together as a family. We were there for each other. And I guess I don't see it quite as it was that bad. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It's so interesting. That's the first time I ever heard you describe it like that.

CLIENT: Well now.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That's how it is now. I mean, you know, we are all close with my mother now. My father has passed away. We're all close with my mother. Even my older sister who had the hardest time with my mother out of all three of us. Even when she was, you know, older. Older, married with kids and she would just still be so hostile. [00:24:19]

And I would say, "Look. Can't you just get over it.? I mean, it happened. It's over. You can't change it." And now she finally came to terms with She had it worse than me with my mother. But we visit all, we get together all the time. She's in Texas and my other sister is in Virginia. We're very close around issues around my mother where we get to spend family holidays together. I mean I just -

THERAPIST: What does that have to do with how your childhood impacted you?

CLIENT: I guess that part makes me not I guess that I am focused more on that than on what it was like growing up. I don't really remember a lot of it. Actually, my mother a lot of times would kind of make fun of me because they'd say I don't remember anything about my childhood. (laughs) [00:25:22]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess if I really focused on it I would see that it was pretty traumatic. But I guess I just I guess, you know, when you look at other people and you say, "My God!" You know, "I didn't " Like I look at Harold. You know?

He grew up in a family where his mother was abusive physically and verbally. She was completely off the wall. His father was completely absent. They had no money. They were like vagabonds and there were ten of them. And I guess I think well, "I didn't have such a bad childhood." (laughs, pause)

But, then again, that's not to say that there were things about my childhood that I really probably should think more about and focus on and understand. Because it's not always what it looks like. And I know I did have some traumatic I don't know why this came to my mind last night (laughs) when I couldn't sleep. I had some traumatic experiences in my childhood. You know? [00:26:48]

One was I remember when my mother took me to the doctor because she wanted to know if I was going to grow.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Wanted to know what the situation was about my growth. So I went to some kind of special clinic in Virginia and it was a big deal. And I just remember being completely, you know, petrified that they were going to tell me (laughs) I wasn't going to grow anymore.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And then I, last night I had this memory. I don't know why, it just came to me. Of, I told you about when my mother sent me to camp with my sister. To overnight camp. I didn't want to go. And I don't really remember how old I was. Probably around eight. And I remember sitting around with another bunk. So there were two bunks together that were in their bunk. [00:27:48]

On there floor they were telling stories or something and I had to go to the bathroom. And I was too embarrassed to say, "I have to go to the bathroom." So I peed in my pants on the floor.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And just, you know, all of a sudden you could see like (laughs) the water under me.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it was just, you know, devastating and humiliating. So I know I had experiences like that.

THERAPIST: Did you connect the two somehow, the doctor's visit with the peeing?

CLIENT: What? What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You had just talked about the doctor visit and then the peeing. I'm wondering if there's a connection.

CLIENT: Wait. What doctor's visit?

THERAPIST: The doctor's visit for the growth, [what you said about growing] (ph).

CLIENT: Oh, no. I just thought that was another thing that was pretty traumatic.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) What was the concern? Why did your mother thing you weren't going to grow?

CLIENT: Because I was small and behind in everything. And basically they said I was about three years behind in growth. [00:28:56]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: The end result was I was about three years behind in growth, but I was still going to grow. It was just that I didn't get my period until I was sixteen. Everything just sort of I didn't get my boobs until I was I was like flat chested and like all of a sudden I was like (laughs) So it was just delayed growth. But I guess they just wanted to make sure that it wasn't some pituitary issue.

THERAPIST: And was part of the trauma of the memory being scared?

CLIENT: Mm hm. Not really understanding what was going on. Just, you know, kind of I knew it was a big affair. We never went to the city. So we went to Virginia. I had to go. And it's just also kind of interesting. These things come up. I kind of remember my mother wanting to hold my hand while we were walking.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I didn't want to hold her hand.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) Did you hold it?

CLIENT: I don't think so. [00:30:02]

THERAPIST: Did you not want to touch her or her touch you?

CLIENT: Yeah. I just never felt a connection to her.

THERAPIST: Mm. Was it confusing why she wanted to hold your hand?

CLIENT: Probably. (laughs) I don't think it was a normal behavior.

THERAPIST: Mm. (long pause) What is it like to think about these things now?

CLIENT: (sigh) Very detached. Not quite feeling connected. Like I can talk about it but I'm not connecting with the feelings. [00:31:29]

THERAPIST: And where are the feelings?

CLIENT: (laughs) Way down somewhere.

THERAPIST: Hm. Way down where?

CLIENT: (laughs) In my feet. (laughs) I don't know. Nowhere near, let's say nowhere near my heart. It sort of feels like I [have something] (ph) (pause)

THERAPIST: If you shake your feet enough do they go away?

CLIENT: I'm not in touch with them. They are just there. (laughs) I mean it does sometimes concern me how detached I can be with my feelings. And it's not like I purposely, it's just I've become aware of it and it's like, "Jesus!" [00:32:39]

You know, a lot of times it will happen with, you know, Harold and I having some kind of discussion or argument but, you know, trying to resolve something. And I'll just like, I can feel it. It just kind of comes over me and I just can't It's just detached.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) Is it a physical feeling of like unattaching yourself from something?

CLIENT: Somewhat.

THERAPIST: I just think about sort of the act of hand holding being attached versus an attach to somebody.

CLIENT: The thing is I used to, I mean I think I remember myself as always being wanting to, you know, cuddle and connect. But if feels like it's been a long time since I felt that way. [00:34:05]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: How long?

CLIENT: (sigh, pause) Long. (laughs) I think, and I always think of this. It was easier for me in a non-committed relationship. It's just specified to a relationship. (pause) I think it's definitely connected to intimacy. And I actually see a little of it in Dana which worries me. But there are times that I see her doing exactly what I do. She just, I know she wants to like connect or [feel a hug] but she doesn't let herself. [00:35:50]

THERAPIST: Mm. How do you know? What do you see in her?

CLIENT: (sigh) Just like something will happen like if we get into something, an argument or something, and I can see that she sees that I'm really hurt and I know she knows it. But she doesn't let herself feel it so she can't comfort me. (pause) Which is, you know, I know I do it but to see it in my daughter is disturbing to me.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (clears throat)

THERAPIST: Do you feel sad for her? [00:36:57]

CLIENT: I feel sad for us. I did have, and I've asked her outright. You know, I've said, "When you think of growing up what are you feeling? What are your memories?" You know? "Did you have fun?" Because she knows how I feel about my mother. And she said, you know, "Yes, definitely." Because I did have difficulty with her. And I really tried. But we were so much alike it's just very kind of scary (laughs) how much alike we are in so many ways. (pause)

But I remember having that situation. I think I mentioned to you already. When she went to camp, her first camp. You know, I was just like so frustrated that she wouldn't get on that bus. We were both crying. I couldn't comfort her. [00:38:10]

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) So that felt less like a mom and more like a helpless child?

CLIENT: Yes. And I knew my limitations. I mean I thought I knew my limitations of being a mom based on my experience. And I really don't think I would've had children. I really think this is true. If I hadn't met somebody like Harold who was obviously going to be such a good father and so good with his children. And I felt like he was able to help me. (clears throat) Otherwise I don't think I would have had children. (pause) [00:39:19]

THERAPIST: Well, in order to feel like you can be a good mother, this has nothing to do with how good a mother you are, but in order to feel like you could be a good mother, people need to feel like there's a good mother in them. And it sounds like at that moment with the bus where you felt like you couldn't comfort Dana, you felt like there was no mother. You didn't feel like a mother and you didn't have a mother.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You just didn't know what to do.

CLIENT: So I called Harold. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm. So you called the dad.

CLIENT: (laughs) (pause)

THERAPIST: What are you feeling right now?

CLIENT: Detached. [00:40:28]

THERAPIST: Mm. You look a little choked up.

CLIENT: Well I feel sad about I feel sad that I can't be more, that I couldn't be more of how I would have liked to be as a mother.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't think I was a bad mother at all. But (pause) I guess I wished I had some connection with my mother to go by so that I could have shared that same thing. I feel like I do a lot certainly not like my mother. I mean, I carry a lot of that stuff but I'm certainly a lot better than my mother as far as being a mother and being able love my children and show it. But I think there's a lot there that I don't Also, a fear of not being able to handle a loss or loving somebody too much. [00:41:45]

THERAPIST: Mm. What is too much?

CLIENT: (laughs) I don't know. Enough that it hurts if something happens. (pause)

THERAPIST: I wonder if you feel that not only that you didn't have a mother, but that you also lost a mother.

CLIENT: I don't know when I lost her because I don't know when I ever had her (laughs), but (clears throat, pause) I really can't remember anything from when I was young with my mother. (pause) [00:43:06]

THERAPIST: I'm so struck by your memory about going to the doctor and her trying to hold your hand and your not holding it back. Because it seems like, I don't know, it seems like at that age already you were resigned. Kind of, "Why bother?"

CLIENT: Yeah. I think pretty early on I I mean, I don't know what she was like. I wish I new somebody who could tell me. You know? You know, maybe I can talk more with my older sister. But she's only two and a half years older than me. But it's just odd to me that I don't know what she was like with me.

THERAPIST: The thought that comes to my mind is one of the things that mothers do, especially for very young children, is make meaning out of young children's experience. Like rather than just crying, you give them a bottle or something for a lot of reasons. But one of which is it sort of creates context for what crying for. You're not just crying. And if there's no context it just feels like crying after a while with just kind of a namelessness. [00:44:33]

And I'm so struck by your look that seems like there's almost like a hunt to sort of provide some meaning to what you're feeling. Like the hunt to me is more striking than what you could be looking for.

CLIENT: I'm not sure I know what you mean.

THERAPIST: Well it's just I'm struck by how much you're sort of trying to identify in very specific ways causes for what you feel and what you experience. And that search to me is as significant, if not more so, than the particulars of what you could find. And so like in that activity that you're engaged in, that to me strikes me as important in and of itself.

CLIENT: In what I mean, why?

THERAPIST: Because you're trying to do something. That you're trying to provide something for yourself in that. You know, you're trying to do something and help yourself in some way to make meaning of an experience that just feels so unnamable and chaotic. [00:45:40]

CLIENT: Uh huh.

THERAPIST: And that to me is what stands out more than anything else.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like it feels like it doesn't have enough of a narrative and it's just kind of confusing. (pause)

CLIENT: I think I sort of understand, I still don't totally understand what you're saying.

THERAPIST: You know, maybe I need to think about it more too.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And try to find a way to express it that makes more sense for both of us. I need to think about that more and see if there's even something to it. You know, Elaine (ph) we're going to need to stop for tonight.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I will see you next week. Okay?

CLIENT: Yep. (clears throat)

THERAPIST: Great. Take care.

CLIENT: Okay. What time is it? It's 5:00?

THERAPIST: It's 5:45. Yeah, we started a couple of minutes early, but yeah. [00:46:39]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. Very good.

CLIENT: Did I [get my jacket] (ph)?

THERAPIST: Yes, you did.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay. Buh bye.

END TRANSCRIPT