TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How's it going? (pause) (sighs) A lot to talk about. (pause) So, I'm glad I'm here. Because I had a I had a cold all week, (pause) that somehow turned into a toothache last night. So, I only got like three hours of sleep. So, I think it's much better now, but I don't know if it was because I floss three or four times a day. [00:01:01] So, I don't know if I over did it or something, or it's just a cold, or just I don't know what the fuck, anyway. But anyway, that's not the important part.

So, (pause) something happened on Friday, that if this was This is how I know this shit's working. That if this was if it had happened even like six months ago or a year ago, I would have just fucking spiraled. So, basically the long and short of it is, I hit a rock bottom thing when it comes to my student loans and my financial, you know. And how did that happen. I I don't know how it crossed my mind, but a month or two ago, (pause) I don't know how I remembered someone talking about There's this site where you go and you see if the state has any money owed to you. Like accounts you've forgotten or shit like that. [00:01:57] So, I don't know why, but on a whim I went on there, right?

THERAPIST: To see if the state owed you (inaudible at [00:02:06])?

CLIENT: (Overlapping voices) Yeah, there's a site that when people that forget they have some savings account from ten years ago.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Oh, yes. Yes.

CLIENT: Just random things. I go on there. I found out that I had a savings account and I have like $2,500 owed that's in that savings account, (pause) from the old bank, or whatever. I get really excited. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? That would I get pretty excited. Whatever, I do the paper work. I check it out and there's all this paperwork, whatever, I send in. I get the check Friday. The check's for 300 bucks. (pause) Why? Because the money was intercepted by one of these collection assholes for student loans, and they took everything but 300 bucks. [00:02:55]

(pause) Now, like I said, if that was six months ago, I would have lost my fucking shit. And I still do. I mean, it's that's ridiculous. I mean, I was so happy because I have no money basically. That would have been a nice cushion to, you know what I mean? But you know what? I almost immediately was like; well yeah I mean of course they did because I don't take care of these things. And all I had to do was call who ever I owe money to and just work it out, and I didn't. So, this is shitty. I don't think they should be allowed to do that, but that's the way it goes. (pause) So, in a weird way, I feel good about that (laughing) reaction. Especially having a cold, Thanksgiving was boring as fuck, and I didn't give a shit. It was not I was a very blah week. [00:03:54] (pause)

So, it was the kick in the balls. It was like, you know what dude? Monday you're going to call all these people. (pause) Sallie Mae, Shmallie (ph) Mae, or whatever the name of it. Listen man. I'm doing (inaudible at [00:04:10]). I don't know what to do. What can we do to That's it. That's all I had to do for the last number of years. (pause) The other thing though with that that it did do, is it got me writing. Because like (pause) Yes of course it's my fault for not calling these but, I've the last number more and more and more. I just believe there's a systemic fucking problem here with education, loans. (pause) It just it ties into my whole anger about not just no guidance from my family, but the minute you're fucking 18 they're just throwing credit cards at you. There's no they don't teach you shit in high school about finances. [00:04:57] That really makes me angry. That's not my fault. You know what I mean?

I wanted to get an education. And I'm sorry that I don't want to be a lawyer or an engineer or something. I really believe that's predatory bullshit. Don't make it that easy to Don't give Ph.D.'s in English Lit if you're not going to give people secure jobs, and you know what I mean? Figure it out. Either don't make them pay, or if you're going to screw people financially, make sure that there's some jobs after they get these degrees that later you're going to mock (ph) them for. That, I don't know, it just got me really, really angry. So, because on the one hand its, yeah, of course I could have nipped this in the bud, but that wouldn't negate the fact of how much I owe, which is insane.

THERAPIST: You're saying you feel they should they shouldn't have accepted you as a student?

CLIENT: No, what I'm saying is there is a systemic problem. Not just with student loans, but in general, debt in this country is just out of People have no savings. [00:06:04] Average people have no savings. Why not? Because you're constantly being pushed to be in debt. One way or the other you're It's bad if you don't have a credit history If you don't credit history. That's insanity. You know what I mean? It's bad if you have credit cards but you pay all of them off all the time. That's bad for your credit score. You should have you should pay off almost everything, but have a 10 percent amount that you keep rolling. I just feel like these are really sinister ways to just fuck average people, and ways to keep poor people poor. By making them want shit and then taking on debt that they then can't pay, and then blaming. It's always blaming weak people. Well you shouldn't have done that. Why did you go get a fucking Ph.D. in English? (inaudible at [00:06:53]) Do something that makes money. Or, why'd you by a big screen TV? [00:06:53] Who told you to buy Well, (pause) it doesn't work that way. Yeah, people should be responsible, but (pause) when someone's life is kind of miserable, all they want is a fucking and they're being pushed from every direction to want things. It's like; they want a fucking big screen TV. That's They're not the one I'm going to blame. I'm going to blame the assholes that are crapping on them day in and day out. You know what I mean? I just I mean, I'm not trying to over simplify it, but I just believe there is something systemically not balanced here. You know what I mean?

So, anyway. (pause) So that got me writing. Just to write about, like, there has to be a better way to do this. I mean, I think education should be free. But even if it's not free, there's got to be a way to (pause) balance the discrepancy between a shit load of people who want these fine arts degrees, or whatever degrees, and the mockery that it is once they're done. [00:08:03] That doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand how that makes sense. You know what I mean? Either don't give those degrees, or give like one at every university (laughing). Or give the fucking degrees and make sure that people have jobs. Don't make them adjunct slaves, or whatever. I don't know. But -

THERAPIST: How do they do that though? When you say that, make sure they have jobs.

CLIENT: Well, for example, like Harvard now mostly has, I think it's like almost like 60 percent part time faculty and adjuncts and shit. So, that's Harvard? They could they could make everyone tenure tomorrow and they'd have billions of dollars in their endowment. You know what I mean? It's about are you a corporation or are you about knowledge? If you're about knowledge, it doesn't make Why are you giving all these Ph.D.'s if then there are no jobs for those I mean, make jobs. [00:08:55] But don't hire adjuncts, just fucking hire these people as tenure track professors. Or at least as full time lecturers with benefits. You know what I mean? It doesn't I don't understand that. Basically universities are saying we'll give you a Ph.D. in Nigerian folk songs, but we're running this thing like a corporation. So, what that doesn't make sense. If a place like Harvard is doing that, imagine Ball State University or what I mean, it's a joke. So, (pause) I don't know. But it's a general thing I'm talking not just that. I just In high school they teach you a million things but sit you down and say "Listen man, (pause) we're not trying to scare you (laughs), but we are trying to scare you. Finances are really fucking important. It'll haunt you for years, and it's really difficult to " I just don't understand why that's not a class. I don't know. Anyway. [00:10:00]

CLIENT: Anyway. (pause) So I'm just glad it didn't completely derail me. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, it also sounds like your reaction had space for both (pause) anger at the system that continuously recreates this kind of experience for people, and ownership of your own decision making.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Sure, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) that they can both be there. (ph)

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) There's a context in which you make bad decisions.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? So, I get that I'm angry at the context, but my bad decision a bad or no decision. When you're not proactive about something, you're not being proactive about something. That's all there is to it. So, no absolutely. That's why yeah, I think that's why I'm not that upset. [00:11:00] That's -

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Yeah that's what feels really different. I think you're saying six months or a year ago it would have been (pause) only this system part.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, it just would have been rage and depression.

THERAPIST: Which in a way makes you feel even more oddly. As much as it sounds like it could feel worse to feel like oh this is my fault too, it actually Then you're a person amongst people.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah

THERAPIST: Rather than the world is against you. They all have something that (inaudible due to overlapping voices at [00:11:28])

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, yeah. That's exactly it. Yeah, I don't feel that way. I just feel like I'm one of millions of people that's defaulted on their loans and stuff like this -

THERAPIST: Well, right, we didn't learn (inaudible at [00:11:36] from parents that you're being taught; don't avoid these things. This is the thing, of anything not to avoid, this is (overlapping voices) the thing you want to -

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Or even the worst part is, then you do learn, but then it's already too late. Then I was already on the track. I was already doing a Ph.D. You know what I mean? There wasn't Then you're already in the system. Or, you've already chosen some kind of path that then you're like; what do I do? I just drop out of grad school, or what? [00:11:59] People are telling me I should at least finish because then I'll have a Ph.D. But the Ph.D. is nothing anymore. Like I it's just a cluster fuck kind of whirlpool that you get stuck in. So but yeah no. I totally it's my fault.

THERAPIST: You're adding even the part about finding your way into something without actually knowing the full unfolding of a vision for the future. Like, will getting this degree actually be worth it for me or not, given all that it costs, how few jobs are.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah. Right, yeah

THERAPIST: You weren't in a place then, of thinking about that.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) No.

THERAPIST: You were in grad school, but that that was the most important thing of anything in the world.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: Thinking about whether or not you practically would use this degree was not even part of the equation.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right, right.

THERAPIST: That's also (overlapping voices) so, so (inaudible at [00:12:55])

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Oh yeah. Yeah, no, if I could go back I don't think I'd even go to grad school at all. Like any of my grad degrees. I don't think I would.

THERAPIST: Even London (ph)?

CLIENT: I don't I well, that's I mean that's difficult to say in retrospect because obviously it changed my life to go there, but I mean I don't know. When I've talked to my friends about this, it's difficult because (Clears throat) my friends would be like; Yeah, right. You shouldn't have gone to that school. And in a way they are right. I mean, it's on my CV (ph). I might have not gotten this job. You know these douchebags went to the Ed school and it is what it is. I think it does open some doors, but (pause) Yeah, I don't know. I think it's I think it's just a very messy kind of thing. I think higher education has become a very Because yeah, it does help, but if you're not careful, stuff like this can happen too. Where you're just constantly worrying about stuff. [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: Had things been different. It sounds like we can't know. We can't know whether it would or wouldn't have made any one of these decisions, but you might have been making a decision with much more awareness about pros and cons (overlapping voices) (inaudible at [00:14:14]

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right, at least that. Right, right.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Knowing the whole lay of the land, what it'll do, what it won't do, (overlapping voices) and them making a decision from that place whether it's worth it or not.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right, right. Right, right.

THERAPIST: Which is really different than kind of (overlapping voices) having -

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Just being swept up and yeah.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Yeah, and having to live sort of reactively instead of proactively.

CLIENT: Yep, yeah.

THERAPIST: (Pause) That's what I hear gets triggered was you start to write, is there's this moment where not having been proactive hurts you so much. But there's a price (ph) to just breathe for a second. Just go do not avoid writing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Just start writing.

CLIENT: yeah.

THERAPIST: In addition to feeling passionately about something you're actually writing about it.

CLIENT: Right, right. [15.06] (pause) It's a bummer. It's I mean, that that money going to make a difference. I would have been able to breathe. Because then I could just that put that aside. And it just then I'd have my paychecks, and that's all people need is like a little bit of cushion. You know what I mean? Just and now I'm kind of worried. I'm like what the fuck. Are they going to start taking money out of my checking account or something? That's kind of horrifying. It's just like Big Brother. It's like well just fuck it then. Just make me homeless. I mean I don't know, but So, yeah today I'm just going to go down the list and just make calls and just figure it out.

THERAPIST: It's really, really disappointing to hear.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah. Yep.

THERAPIST: And anxiety (inaudible at [00:16:12]) for you to notice how far they can get into your personal affairs.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah. Right, right.

THERAPIST: I didn't know they could do that. It's so sad.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean the thing the only thing I don't get is I don't know how I was not You should be notified about things like that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe I I don't know. I don't know what happened. (pause) I don't know. The whole system is just you know? And the thing about (inaudible at [00:16:50]) I was talking to my friend about this too. What happens is from the get go you're kind of locked into this thing of shame. You know what I mean? That it shames you. You know what I mean? Because it's a societal thing. We don't talk about it that much. You're neighbor has a BMW and a manicured lawn, so you just assume that But you don't know that they have like $50,000 in debt on their credit cards. You know it's like it's just awful. I just I don't know man. That really fucking gets to me. Of course people need to be responsible or whatever, but the context is still the context. That's just people justthen they feel embarrassed. And that's what happened to me. Right? I just felt I feel so guilty, and so ashamed, and so like I must be some loser that can't get my finances together or whatever. But then you just keep putting it off more and more. You just don't want to deal with it. [00:17:48]

THERAPIST: (pause) Then they keep on and create this kind of cycle of avoidance.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it feels too shaming to approach and deal with the thing that feels (overlapping voices) (inaudible at [00:18:13])

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, because it's as if when you're calling Sallie Mae. Sallie Mae. It's as if you're the only one that's calling Sallie You know what I mean? Like you're some exception. You're some weird outsider. Its fucking millions of people (laughing) are in default.

THERAPIST: I wonder that aren't you (ph) you've said that a number of times that when you do something like it's as though you're in your head, that that you're the only one. [00:18:48] It's like I mean It just makes me wonder if in your family there was no room for people doing things that made them feel embarrassed. Like screwing something up, making mistakes, (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Oh yeah, absolutely not.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) and just having that mean; Oh yeah, I screwed up. Silly me, or what a fool I was. (overlapping voices) I can't

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) No, no. We would screw up and then they there would like neurosis (ph) and mass [inaudible] there's no -

THERAPIST: Not to have that be sort of a normal part of human experience that can be known by other people.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right, right. Oh yeah, I mean that's the other thing that I think the reason why I'm handling this much better is because I know that a lot of it -it's just it's from childhood. It's not just when I was 19 or whatever, it's just all Everything is a fucking embarrassment. You can't just be among people because in their mind, everyone else is better off than they are. No one else is calling Sallie Mae. You know what I mean? Other students are like, you know. Like, you know. Well, so and so's son works and goes to school and he doesn't have any loans. Why do you have I mean there's always a way to make it seem like other people are constantly one upping. [00:20:04]

THERAPIST: Which has this odd then self-fulfilling prophecy, because what it does do, is then make you go to this extreme of avoidance.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which isn't as common. But what is common is people default on their loans. People make mistakes. People have struggling (inaudible at [00:20:23]) Normal, common stuff.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Right. Right.

THERAPIST: That you get made to feel like you're the only one.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Somehow everybody else has it together (overlapping voices). Right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So, then you have to sort of retreat even more. Instead of just being you amongst many people, and having that be known and (overlapping voices) understood.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Right. (inaudible at [00:20:40] establish (ph) what you-what? You defaulted on (laughing)

THERAPIST: Right. Right.

CLIENT: Are you kidding? Take that alright well, here's what we've got to do and let's let's look at (overlapping voices)

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) That's what that person does for a living. (laughing)

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Let's look up your account. Alright well yep. It's (mumbles) I mean, it's yeah, I don't know. [00:20:55] Yeah, it was as if I mean, in some ways I guess it was good that this happened. I mean, it's not good, but Like I said before, I'm the type where sometimes a switch just goes off and that's I think that's what happened. I was like whoa. Suddenly there's like this lucid moment where I was like wait, what? This because I just wouldn't make a phone call? What What's going on here? Yeah, it's kind of embarrassing, whatever, but that's just me. It's not like the other person. There's nothing (clears throat) (pause) (sighs) (sniffles).

THERAPIST: It's like forgetting to do or bring in your homework one day. It feels embarrassing. Right? You tell the teacher I forgot. It's much more embarrassing if you don't tell the teacher. You pretend you didn't forget.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Then days and days go by. Then it gets worse and worse and worse and worse. And it actually does look worse.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Right.

THERAPIST: Instead of being able to have that be a part of your family culture. That when you make mistakes that you own up to them and figure it out, and make amends, and-that's just so normal.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Right. Right. [00:22:01]

THERAPIST: What would your parents do with their mistakes?

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) I have no idea.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) When they goofed up or -

CLIENT: (takes a deep breath) No, Not until it killed them (ph). I don't know. There's some of that imagery in my book actually. There's a whole physic (ph) poem where (pause) that's weird. There's a poem where it's it's kind of about money, or there's just a couple of lines about money. It's about (chuckles) I think at the end it just says something like (pause) something, something family. Oh, no, no, no. Something, something people sitting in a kitchen, chewing and being chewed. The idea of just-of just being eaten alive and they don't even know what . You know. (pause) I don't know what I mean, think And really, their mistakes were endless. Right? Because what mistakes? Which one? So. [00:23:23]

(inaudible at 00:23:28) talking about my aunt, a woman that has not come to see her mother who almost died twice. That's some fucked that to me has revealed so much about this. I mean she's made the extreme My mom obviously she's dealing with it head on. But still there's something it has a thread of They all have this I don't know. I mean, comparison to my mom actually is turns out my mom is one of the most normal. My mom deals with things. She's on top of her bills. She's very organized. She'll call the bank and she'll My mom's amazing that way. I don't I don't-she just never taught me. You know what I mean? She just assumed I would know that's what you do. Plus she would make me feel bad. Instead of being like; oh well no, that's okay. You've got to do it this way. It would just be all this shaming. (pause) [00:24:28]

THERAPIST: There's a way (inaudible at [00:24:45]) thinking of her in then you went over when she said she was having a rough time and she was really panicking. Right?

CLIENT: She was really dizzy. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Was it? (ph) She was dizzy. And she's I hear you describing she was sitting on the stairs or something and saying like "Oh, I'm sorry" (overlapping voices) and eventually being apologetic.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: But there's a way you describe even that kind of neurotic (inaudible at [00:25:10]) neurotic state as if (pause) it's still not a full accountability and ownership of (overlapping voices) what she's done wrong.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) No. No.

THERAPIST: It's sort of like the opposite. Oh, (overlapping voices) I screwed everything up.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) It's a moment of panic.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Yes.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) But there's no afterwards saying: Okay, what was that? [00:25:27] What's going on here? (overlapping voices) There's no -

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) And what's actually in me that's the (overlapping voices) problem.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: What do I need to work on in this?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. No. There's no there's no self-critical positive self-critical that No, I'm sure there's a lot of self-hatred or whatever, but (pause) nope.

THERAPIST: Or woe is me. I can't do anything right. Actually in its own way is not ownership of (overlapping voices) anything.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right.

THERAPIST: I mean, that's why you're saying: What have What haven't they screwed up? Well, they probably got a lot of things right too. So, it's sort of this I'm a everything's a screw up. We've got nothing that we worked for or -

CLIENT: Yeah, but the stuff they got right are I mean Jesus Christ, they should at least get that right. I mean yeah, basic kind of decency (laughing), clothing, feeding, being cleanly. I don't know. I mean to me, those are Jesus Christ. That's I mean to me the real stuff of parenting is all the other stuff. [00:26:31] Otherwise it's just functional. It's just like this. I love you. Of course, you're my daughter and I'll do everything for you, and give me a hug, or whatever. But, that's neither here nor there. That's I mean-those are the Aren't you going to at least do that? That's So, that's what I mean, of course they did lots of things. And they yes it could have been much worse in many ways. I look around me and it's like, Jesus Christ. There's some fucked up families who are way worse off financially every way. But, you know, you can't It's like saying to a depressed person, "Well, at least you're not a starving Nigerian baby." I mean, (chuckles) every one's context is their context. Doesn't make it, you know. [00:27:17]

My parents had the potential to do a lot more. That's the Other families don't have that. They're alcoholics. There's just something already kind of broken. But when you kind of have one foot in the door You know what I mean? You're here. All you got to do is use your brain a little bit and be a little more savvy, (pause) a little more open, that could have Things would have been very different.

(2 minute pause at 00:27:51)

CLIENT: [00:30:01] It's funny too because I Maybe it's all that it happened like Thursday and Friday. Because at Thanksgiving I was it was a really funny Thanksgiving. I was kind of It wasn't bad, but it was just so blah. It was just so blah. I mean, I kind of talked to people, I guess, my cousins, but there was no Just I don't know. The only highlight was when my little cousin drew an awesome little picture for me. But I just It was maybe it's because I had a cold too or some I don't know. I was just like; I have no interest in being here really. I don't know. But I didn't feel bad. You know what I mean? I wasn't there feeling anxious or even depressed. I was just like; I'm going to be here for a little bit. It's the right thing to do. But we ate. Once they served coffee I was like I'll see you later. [00:30:59] (pause) Didn't get involved in any political discussions. (inaudible at [00:31:05]) Nah, just (pause)

THERAPIST: You weren't here Thursday and Friday.

CLIENT: Sorry?

THERAPIST: You weren't here on Thursday and Friday (overlapping voices)?

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right?

THERAPIST: Two (ph) Just us (ph)

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right (clears throat)

THERAPIST: How about just something (ph) (inaudible at [00:31:28])

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) yeah.

THERAPIST: It's an absence (ph). (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. In some ways it-yeah, it's kind of liberating. I don't know if that's the right word, but to feel okay I just got to deal with this stuff. [00:32:02] It really isn't it kind of deflates It's like we're not they're not going to put me in the fucking What's it called? Stockyard or barracks or What are those things called? Son of a bitch. The wood things, you know, like in the in the 1600's? The You know what I'm saying? You're in the town (ph) green, in the wooden thing. (overlapping voices) Yeah.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) (inaudible at 00:32:32)

CLIENT: Sock (ph) stockyard, right? Stock?-anyway whatever. So, but yeah. It's not it's not like some (pause) boogeyman that's trying to get you, or something. You know what I mean? Just the shit that people do every day. There's something kind of liberating about (pause) or relief. I don't know what it is, but Just going like; hey man. Just see what's going on and figure it out and (pause) [00:33:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah, not approaching it actually keeps reinforcing it that it's really, really, really hard -

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right.

THERAPIST: because you never get to (pause) go approach it (overlapping voices) and figure it out, and see that that's all it is.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Yeah. Yeah. And think about it, all these years I have not been able to not think about it. (overlapping voices) Do you know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Right. Right.

CLIENT: Unless you deal with it, there's nothing to think about. It's dealt with.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Right.

CLIENT: So you're on some (overlapping voices)

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Things are in place. You've got a plan. (ph)

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, yeah. So now your mind can fucking think of (laughing) other things, or not be worried that (pause) It's just insanity, fucking insanity. [00:33:55] (pause)

THERAPIST: When it feels though I mean, your association to whatever this thing is you're describing about being locked up. And it sounds like being dragged out for public humiliation. Right? (overlapping voices) Put on display.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, it's Well, remember there were debtor prisons, right? (overlapping voices) Especially in England.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: So, yeah. That's not the world we live in now. There's not People aren't going to come with pitchforks and torches to you away. I mean, (pause) people are fighting to keep their homes, and I'm all worried about this stupid loan. I should just fucking call them and take care of it, whatever. [00:34:48] (pause) It also motivated me. I talked to my friend Stephen yesterday. He's going to hook me up with this old dude that has a house on the shore. And he wants to turn it into some kind of like a (pause) center for men. Almost like an AA, but more focused on men. So I'm going to He was like you should try doing a grant for him. Just charge him a little bit less. Just get to get things going. [00:35:37]

So, the weird way this whole thing got me Because you know what I was thinking about? One other thing that I always avoid is (pause) I avoid new situations. You know what I mean? Like the one thing about this (inaudible at [00:35:51]) I got to meet people. Right? I got to put myself out there. I got to have meetings. I got I almost Something about that makes me feel weird. Like, what am I doing? That's so (laughing) odd. You know what I'm saying? I don't know if that makes sense, but that's happened my whole life. I always I always feel this weird (pause) I feel very strange when I'm embarking on a new job or something.

THERAPIST: I think that you're very exposed.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, something I just feel really shy at first, and yeah, exposed, and kind of and automatically kind of not antagonistic, but antiauthoritarian (ph). I just hate working for other people. And that's that's fine. But in this case, I'm more and more (inaudible at [00:36:49]) wait a minute, this is for me. (laughing) I'm not It's good money and I'm not working for some schlep (ph). It's not like I'm punching in and out. It's a great idea for a business, and you're helping people. So, (pause) I don't know.

THERAPIST: When the authorities in your life it's authorities, mom and dad, were so humiliating of you in so many different ways. [00:37:21] Like being out there, being yourself, got exposed and humiliated you in negative (ph) ways all the time. That I think you're just carrying that as a (inaudible at [00:37:30]) what other negative (ph) people are going to do too.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. When I transitioned from teenage into my 20's, or maybe no younger, I think. There were like one or two jobs that just I stopped going. I got jobs, and I didn't quit. I just wouldn't go. Something would just Like I was a I had a dishwashing job. And I went one day, and then I just I never went back. It's weird. I just I just felt really embarrassed or something. I got a job at the bookstore when I was like 17 or something. I worked like two, three days and I just I couldn't do it. [00:38:11]

THERAPIST: Do you know then I don't want to what? What was it like when you were there? What -

CLIENT: I just felt really embarrassed.

THERAPIST: By (ph) what?

CLIENT: I don't know. Just like, I didn't know who to talk to, and I felt shy, and Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, but the social parts of it, or about being judged in the job you were (overlapping voices) doing. Or the

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) All of it.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) All of it.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) All of it. Yeah, yeah. I think I remember, the bookstore one, I was even too shy to ask what I should do, or to ask for help or Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: To even ask questions.

CLIENT: Yeah, and But even then I think there were things about feeling a little bit demeaned or something. I was like; what the fuck am I doing? There's something about that kind of Yeah, even back then it was something about the grunt work that felt I don't know if it's because -(pause) I don't know. I don't know if it's because I just I was so close with my dad and he was a mechanic, and I saw how difficult I don't know. I don't know what why that was. [00:39:14] Or, I mean or I was just being a kid. You know what I mean? And I was a bit of a punk. And I was, you know. But the main things I remember is just feeling very Yeah, exposed is a good word. It's weird, and Like at the bookstore, I think I felt like I was the freak that was working there, deep down. I don't think I thought of that. But, you know, I felt really shy. I felt like I was ugly, and that the other people were like; who's this fucking kid? Or something. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it was something like that. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's such an image. Here was this freakish, dark outsider. Who's being (inaudible at [00:40:01])

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Right. Right. Which again doesn't make sense, because you got the fucking job. (laughing) So, clearly there's a -

THERAPIST: Intellectually, you know that that's actually not what it was. (ph) (overlapping voices) It just felt like that's how it was.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) But, back then I don't think I knew it, even intellectually. That didn't even cross my mind. Well wait a minute. Well I got the job. Yeah, back then, didn't even cross my mind. [00:40:21] Yeah. (pause) Yeah, weird, very strange. And it wasn't that I wasn't I mean, I had my first real job that at that carpet store. I worked hard and I liked that job. So I Maybe because that was such a small business, and I felt like it was more of a family or something. I don't know what it was, but these other places that are bigger and just random people and everything, I think You know what I think the other thing is too? It's because you're coming from the sheltered It's really like you're stunted. Like I was just like a five year old kid. You know what I mean? We only speak Assyrian at home, and all these other people are foreigners. [00:41:11] They're not Assyrian. They're You got to be careful or whatever all this shit. So, it's weird, and suddenly there you are at 9:30 in the morning at the bookstore. It's like There's something unsettling about that. But, it's like then I worked at [inaudible], that was fine. I worked there for a couple years. I don't know. I hated it, but I did it. So, I don't know. But there was a little period where there were few, maybe like two or three, jobs that I just (pause)

THERAPIST: It's interesting that you're adding also that there's something about seeing your father's image and then I can sense something about that length (ph) that made it feel like this is I don't want to be doing this type of work or [00:42:24]

CLIENT: Well, that's how my book starts, right? One of the first the second poem, I think, is my dad under the car, Oldsmobile, freaking, fucking winter, on a piece of cardboard, in the driveway, fixing the car. And me holding the flashlight, freezing my ass off. It's what is that?

THERAPIST: You You were there, (overlapping voices) with him.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, Yeah I was there. Yeah, yeah. This was like in ‘81. No, no, I'm sorry. (overlapping voices)

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Like lying under there with him, you mean?

CLIENT: No, no. I was just holding the flashlight while he was under there. No, no, no. It couldn't have been ‘81. ‘86, ‘87. So, it's just like; what is that? On the one hand, I feel like wow, my dad's amazing. What a guy. It's fucking freezing. He's out there under the car, like you know. But, what is that? The guy's working in a factory, working from four to one in the morning. Yeah, I've always had that kind of My mom's side too. My grandfather was kind of like a socialist kind of guy. [00:43:29] Hard worker, but very into social justice, and fucking all that shit. So, yeah, maybe it was just something that was -

THERAPIST: When you say, what is that -?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: No, when you say that; so he's in a factory. He's working four to one. What about that for you? I guess I'm not (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) It's sad.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) Like its: What kind of life is that?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's sad. It's grunt work, and it's difficult, and they're immigrants. They don't you know. It's like, yeah I guess this is a better life, but is it? In a weird way. Do you know what I mean? [00:44:13] Money problems, and it's just something I think I'm an idealist, I think, in some ways. It's like it just doesn't need to be this way. It just doesn't. If it would have been Syria, I guess it does have to be that way. But when it's the most powerful, fucking country that's ever existed, there's got to be a way for people to have a little more dignity, and a little more You know what I mean? It just doesn't seem right to me. And I know that's completely idealistic, whatever, talk, but I feel like that's what America should be. Right? Like, you have to If you're not going to have high standards, and that's the idea of Why do people come here? So they can drive taxis? Like, what I don't know. Plus the thing that their lives were already miserable. [00:45:13] So, it's like; So, I guess this is better because you're not going to be sent to Siberia. (laughing) But Do you know what I mean? I just feel like it's just one difficult thing after another, except here you're under the guise of law (ph), you're working your way up whatever the fuck, up the ladder, or whatever. You want up the ladder. You're working and then you fucking die when you're 60 or 58. I just I don't know.

THERAPIST: Was he unhappy, (overlapping voices) doing what he was doing?

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Towards the end, yeah. Definitely, definitely. Probably even earlier, but those last few years, absolutely. He hurt his arm.

THERAPIST: And he complained about it, but he -

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) No

THERAPIST: No

CLIENT: No, no. But, you could just tell.

THERAPIST: That is was grunt work for him. That he (overlapping voices) (inaudible at [00:46:05])

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Yeah, I mean, he hurt his arm pretty bad, and yeah It just yeah. [00:46:10]

THERAPIST: I mean, I ask I ask that because you said something (ph) about driving taxis. There's some people who do that who love it. That -

CLIENT: Yeah, don't get me wrong. I know there are people yeah, yeah, yeah. No. There's no and work is work. Absolutely. I think yeah, I can (overlapping voices) It's about the context.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) That's what I'm trying to say. What if -

CLIENT: It's about the context. It's about I think, because if you're sensitive, and you're like; Wow. These people, they've already gone through all these difficult things in their lives, and for this? DO you know what I mean? It's one thing if you're born here. If either A, you just love driving taxis, good for you, or B, you're just kind of an idiot even though Imagine me. I'm born here, and I can't seem to do anything else but drive a taxi? That's my fault. When you're fucking born here, you're a moron if you cannot at least have some semblance of a better life than your parents, unless your parents are already doing very well. [00:47:07] But if you're middle to lower middle class, there's no reason why you should not be doing okay. But people that are immigrants like them, who have already gone through hell, it's just like Something about that seems like a cruel joke.

THERAPIST: So, the legacy of what they've been through. That maybe-that maybe the make the hope of moving here, life would be different (overlapping voices) and it's not it's the same (inaudible at [00:47:34]) struggle.

CLIENT: (overlapping voices) Exactly. And clearly (ph) it is different, in some ways it is, but the day to day It's a different kind of oppression, if you ask me. So, (pause) [00:47:45]

THERAPIST: Thursday?

CLIENT: Okay, (clears throat) 12:50.

THERAPIST: Yes, okay. At the usual times.

CLIENT: Yes. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See you later.

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