TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How's it going?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: So. I'm doing alright. I got most of my paperwork done for the loans. It's kind of ridiculous it's so much easier now. It's basically all online.

THERAPIST: umm hmm, umm hmm.

CLIENT: Whatever, so. I already sent out a couple of forms, basically like four places. So that's good, I'm doing that.

THERAPIST: That's great. These are like loan consolidations?

CLIENT: No, no, it's still just like a different bank.

THERAPIST: Four places that you have a loan.

CLIENT: Yeah, like Sallie Mae, and yeah, yeah. I haven't consolidated because I can't figure out if that's the right thing for me to do. It's so confusing now. I don't understand, I don't know if that's the right way to go or, but at least for now this is ah, so. [0:01:09] (pause)

So I don't know. So I'm good. I've been noticing that I'm like a little bit like when I've been talking to my friend, not that been seeing him, I've been pretty much staying in, but when I see my friends whatever, I've noticed that I'm a little bit like not too forthcoming. You know, I don't know if it's cause like I still want to talk about things, or I don't want to jinx anything. Like yesterday I met my friend for a quick dinner and he's like "So what's going on with you and..." and I was like, things are fine. I really didn't know what to say almost, it's weird. So I don't know what that's all about. [0:02:07]

THERAPIST: Did you have a feeling that there were things you would have said, but more specific?

CLIENT: Maybe that's what I thought, maybe it's I don't know what to say. Like things are good, kind of. I don't know what to say. You know what I mean? Like what do people say when they are doing kind of well? You know what I mean? Like yeah I think that was part of it, but also he was like " So, you know, what girls are you seeing now, whatever?" And there was like I'm kind of seeing someone, and I didn't want to say too much about it. I didn't want to ruin it or something. I was like you know there is this girl I really like and you know we'll see. I don't know.

(PAUSE).

CLIENT: Maybe that's what it is, I kind of don't know what to talk about when things are, I was like yeah the record is coming along, and… It's weird. [0:03:00]

THERAPIST: It's very different.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's like I don't know what to…

THERAPIST: It's not just that everything is great

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: It's like it's kind of ordinary.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If bigger things were there, it's a lot of feeling right now. Maybe that's not something you would get into.

CLIENT: Exactly. How am I going to spring that? What am I going to say? Actually yeah that's true, there have been one or two people I have been able to bring that up, just because it's connected somehow to them, or something they said. When people just say how are? I can't be just like, well I'm doing psychoanalysis, and wow I'm fucked or whatever. I don't know what am I going to say? So now with that this kind of, it's not that it's great, it's just that I think that's normal in the sense that everyone has shit that they probably don't just want to talk about over a beer, you know what I mean? And that's what people do, like yeah things are good. You know, but what are people going to say? (Chuckling). [0:04:11]

THERAPIST: And yet with closer, more intimate friends share the same way?

CLIENT: Well no, even with Stephen, he's a very close friend of mine it's just, it didn't, it's wasn't the right…

THERAPIST: Because of the mood.

CLIENT: Yeah, it wasn't the mood. He was you know, he works a lot, but also it's all relative. He's getting divorced, his wife's an asshole. Like he's, you know, he's got problems, you know so. You know what I mean? Like it would feel a little bit silly, or at least yesterday it seemed like, he just seemed really tired, you know. Better to just talk about, keep it light, whatever.

(PAUSE) [0:05:00]

CLIENT: I'm still not able to, like I'm still not utilizing my days the way I want. I don't know, it's, I don't know what to say about that anymore. That's weird. I stopped writing that thing I was writing. You know, that's just usually what happens. I had this like tiny little burst of something, and I was just like, ehh. I even thought about what you said the other day, or week, whatever. I was like, maybe I don't feel like writing. I don't think that is true, but maybe I'm just keep pressuring myself to feel like every ounce of air to be like writing a novel, or maybe I'm just. I mean I'm making a record for Christ's sake. One artistic thing at a time, I mean, I don't know maybe I'm just not feeling it. I'm tired you know? It bothers me that I'm like that because I admire people who are so disciplined. They're not tired, or they are tired, but they somehow fucking muscle through these things, and I guess that I don't have that. Like I don't feel that I don't care enough to do it or something.

(PAUSE) [0:06:25]

THERAPIST: You feel like you have to do it? Or is it like there is a shirk?

CLIENT: Yeah! I just feel like, I've said it before right, I just feel like it's an insult if you have any talent to not see it through, you know? Now maybe I'm being arrogant there. You know lots of people have talent and they just are like "Well I don't feel like doing that right now or whatever." (Laughing) But for some reason I don't feel that way, I feel compelled, I feel like there's something, there's some story that needs to be told. But again, that might be, be just being a little bit, what's that, I don't know what the right word is, but you know a lot of people have stories that should be told, you know I don't know. I don't know, why am I so special? I don't know.

(PAUSE) [0:07:22]

CLIENT: I guess the new part that bothers me about it is, I do think about it a lot, so there must be something, you know what I mean? But I'm sitting at Starbucks, and be like fuck me, why am I not working on a poem right now? Like I haven't, and then I don't work on a poem, you know what I mean? That's what, there's some weird disconnect, and I don't understand.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Look, you're also saying you're not thinking about it, you're thinking that you're criticizing yourself for not doing it.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: That's about what it is. I mean just that it's a sea of, it sounds hard to mobilize and so much criticism.

CLIENT: Yeah, because I'll be starting from a place of like, yeah I'm already starting from a place of like it's not good, or you're behind, or…

THERAPIST: Too little too late.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. [0:08:21]

THERAPIST: You know that there is just so much criticism.

CLIENT: I do think about that too and I wrote this paragraph, and I opened, I do open it. That's a start, I open a file, and it just sits on my computer, and in my mind I'm like I'm not writing anymore because now, that's when I'm like what am I going to say? Instead of just writing, who cares what I'm going to say. I could just write the word cheese for 10 pages, who the fuck cares? And I cannot get over that, I can't. The only reason that paragraph got written is because it just came out and it came out good and that was that. That's just no way, you can't ever, ever, ever write anything complete if that's the way you are going to write. [0:09:08]

CLIENT: It's weird, it's very, very weird. I don't know why I can't treat it like music. I'll just be like, I'm just going to sit down and write the word cheese, for just to like have fun, you know what I mean? It's not fun, it's like yeeww, like hardcore, like in a way I'm just taking myself too seriously in a way. You know what I mean? It's like it's all just literary. Oh I know that sentence isn't interesting. That word is not interesting, that's not a nice turn of phrase. Oh yeah yeah, this is a cliché. Oh yeah man it's serious. Then I'm like this is a cliché, this sentence is boring…

THERAPIST: No wonder you can't write.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yup. I mean it's good for the end result.

THERAPIST: Sooo self-critical.

CLIENT: I know, I know. (Laughing)

THERAPIST: There's no freedom to move even.

CLIENT: No, no. Yeah, cause what could you do? Obviously you can't write anything good if you're you know. Especially prose, I mean because in prose sometimes you have to write sentences like, he walked into the room.

THERAPIST: Of course. [0:10:12]

CLIENT: I mean you know. I just can't do it. Yeah it's very strange. It's very strange.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: You think you're editing and writing at exactly the same time?

CLIENT: Yeah, and like hardcore editing. The thing is I'm a good editor. I mean I do, yeah I know what's good, and I have faith in that, but that has to come after you already have something to edit. I'm the one who tells my students, or have told them over the last whatever years, that's not how you write, but (pause)So that's why it doesn't work when I say I'm going to write for 10 minutes. It from the get go there's not, I already know nothing is going to get on the page because I'm, it's like trying to write in a minefield. So I don't know. [0:11:11]

THERAPIST: We talked about how even speaking here can feel like that too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Being here is being in a minefield, like editing.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: The moment you start the sentence you edited it already.

CLIENT: No thank you, no it's funny because I'm going to see Kelly tonight. By the way, that's been going well, like our texting. I've been really good with that. See like doesn't bother me anymore. At least, I don't know, at least for now it's been (ph). You know she kind of, she'd throw in a couple of hey babes and stuff, and I was like wow that's, I mean, pretty much that's a good sign. But we couldn't get together Tuesday and she was like "Ah damnit." Like she was you know, that's cool. (Laughing) But anyway, I'm going to see her tonight and tomorrow actually. She invited me to this thing, but so now I feel kind of like that about her, it's weird like I'm kind of nervous now, do you know what I mean? Because it's kind of going well, and I don't… [0:12:17] (pause)

THERAPIST: Like an editing?

CLIENT: I don't know about if editing is the right word, but yeah, I feel more rigid now, I just feel like I want it to go well and I don't feel relaxed. (Laughing) I mean I'm sure I will when I see her, but (pause).

THERAPIST: You know the more that's at stake in a way

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All three of these you're talking about, you're like what happens when your vulnerable real self just comes out spontaneously, like maybe it's not going to be ok. Maybe something bad happens and maybe she won't like it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Maybe I sound like an idiot.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: All these fears about like what's really there if you let down your guard.

CLIENT: Right, right.

(Pause)[0:13:08]

CLIENT: Well the one thing that I decided I am going to tell her, either today or I don't know probably today I'll just tell her, but I'm I don't know, I feel like I just do want to tell her though, without making a big deal out of it, but just be like listen you know, ever since I started seeing you I kind of don't feel like seeing other people. So now (Laughing) make of it what you will, but I don't know I feel like that's you know.

THERAPIST: You felt like you.

CLIENT: Yeah! I just feel like looking at a bunch of them, obviously there is something going on here, and I don't want to, I want her to, because she doesn't know either right? She could be like aw what's going on with this guy, like he's just you know. So yeah, I don't know. [0:14:02]

CLIENT: So I guess that's being myself but yeah you're right it's like all these things it's like the more things kind of work, not work, yeah work out then it's harder to. (pause)

THERAPIST: Being yourself, but it does sound how you describe it, like you (pause) for a second. Almost like, I almost feel like the (pause) is there like is that an ok thing to say?

CLIENT: Well yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you're not asking me, but there is a kind of, is that ok?

CLIENT: Yeah I've thought it through, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And I had to think it out.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: To see whether that was, I really think like how would that sound, which is different. Like it's almost like the editing, you're giving me the final sentence that has already been popped through and edited quite a bit instead of coming, it's not that it's bad, it's just noticing how much there still is there anxiety about what of you to show and not show. [0:15:05]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I guess that in this instance it is different though with her, or with women. That's a different thing because it's about like I just don't want her to have any repeat of the Samantha thing. I think I'm just being very cautious you know, and kind of like I don't know. (pause) Like I didn't somehow got to this place now where I'm like if it doesn't work out I'll be perfectly fine, and I think that's just a, I mean that's healthy, but it's also a I'm just protecting myself, you know? I just don't want to (pause)

CLIENT: I was just thinking about something. What was it? Oh, I was thinking about it's even like that with going to the gym I think. I mean not that I'm over editing [inaudible] [0:16:13]

(Laughing) but I think that some of this stuff just goes back to something very deep stops me from just, not enjoying, but taking advantage of, not taking advantage, just being comfortable in the space where things are going just pretty good or normal or whatever. You know what I mean? Do you know what I'm saying?

CLIENT: In other words like you have the whole day, obviously you work from home. You could go to the gym, you going to work on your book, you can do all this shit. There's something very deep from the past I think that instead of saying oh that's cool maybe I'll go for a 10 minute like, something more light-hearted, not light-hearted but yeah maybe light-hearted. Types it in, yeah maybe I'll just go for a 10-minute run today. You know what I mean? Like, who cares, what's there to think about there? You know? But that there's something very deep that even before I can get to that point, where I could be like yeah why, like it just shuts it down, you know what I mean? [0:17:28]

THERAPIST: Or becomes an impasse, it's not happening.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if it's that, even though I'm not so anxious, like I don't have anxiety attacks anymore and all that, but maybe there's something so deep that's still in a place of anxiety that it just kind of (pause)This is really smart. Boy, so where it says like, It whatever that thing is, it's still in such a place of anxiety that that, it's out of my comfort zone to go for a 10 minute run. You know what I mean? It's like ok, just let's just be in this routine, go to Starbucks, whatever, come home get crack-hooked to Netflix, you know what I mean? So like that's all good, but now that whatever that anxiety is it's holding on to that. It's like just do that, or something like that, you know what I mean? [0:18:27]

THERAPIST: Like don't rock the boat almost.

CLIENT: Something, it's not allowing me to have that just like, yeah like I'm just going to go for a 10-minute run. It's not really anything to think about. You know there's something about that that, I mean I know I'm going to get there because I think about it more and more often. So I know it's coming, like I'll be, either right now or later in the day I'll be like oh that's weird it's 8 o'clock I could easily go to the gym right now. I am literally am, like a 1 minute, literally a 1 minute drive, you know. It's so easy, it's so you know. So the more that I've been thinking about that, that means it's going to happen. Where in the past I wouldn't even, or it would be some fleeting thought, and I'd be like you know. Now I'm like no, I could put on my sneakers, just grab my keys, you know. So it's getting there, but it's so weird it's this like, it's weird that it's taking this process to do it instead of just being like oh I'm just going to do it. You know what I'm saying? It's just kind of odd. Like so whatever that thing is, is that powerful I have to go through this, it's almost like self talk or whatever awareness until I actually do it. [0:19:50]

THERAPIST: So what is that thing that is so powerful?

CLIENT: I think it's just what you said. I think it's just like if it's an anxiety thing, anxiety doesn't like change. So it's just

THERAPIST: Anxiety about what? Do you know? Can you be specific about it?

CLIENT: I think it's just old, (pause) I don't know. I guess like childhood stuff or just, I have no idea. Or it could be a combination of when I was a kid and then when I really was having anxiety or panic attacks. So it's like wow I don't have them anymore so let's whatever is happening now. Maybe, I have no fucking idea. [0:20:33] (pause)

CLIENT: I mean the one good thing is in the past it would just be that I'm being fucking lazy. You know what I mean? I would find a way to, I know it's not that, I mean it bums me out that I don't workout, whatever, you know. I mean even in my house, I think I was telling you, I have pull-up bars right? I was using them for awhile, and so like now I don't get why I don't just hop on. It's right there (Chuckling). Or even pushups, I used to do pushups. Pushups, like just it's pushups, there's nothing to like do five, fifteen, I don't give a shit, just do some pushups. [0:21:12]

CLIENT: But I'm not berating myself so much, it's like I know I'm going to do it, it's just for some reason something just keeps shutting down all these. (pause) I mean it's kind of like when in the past I used to do things by myself, I don't do anything by myself, do I? No. Like I don't go to bars by myself anymore, I don't go out of my comfort zone. Like to an art opening, or to a you know, I don't do anything like that anymore. And even in the past I used to remember, I remember that I used to think, I don't know if I did, but people do, people go to the movies alone. They (pause) [0:22:09]

CLIENT: I'm not sure what I'm saying exactly.

THERAPIST: Your association to that just now, would also be why that you have to do things alone. I wonder if there's something about going to the gym, and doing pushups, doing situps even writing. These are things that are alone.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know I wonder if there's something that's sort of, it's going out into the world by yourself that actually somehow you feel more protected from that feeling at home.

CLIENT: Yeah, there is something about that, yeah. I mean I remember when I first went to any, yeah going to the gym is a little bit

THERAPIST: It can be intimidating.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I was doing it, you know, it wasn't a big deal. I mean because obviously I'm not a bodybuilder but at the same time (Chuckling) I mean I can hop on a treadmill and do like four miles. You know I have nothing, or even lifting weights whatever. Yeah I don't bench 300 pounds, but I'll fucking bench some you know I'll push myself. [0:23:22]

CLIENT: In the beginning you're right, but I did it.

THERAPIST: But that was also a time when you weren't as aware as you are right now, I think, of how alone you feel.

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know if that's it. I mean I know what you're saying, I think it just could be a lot of this stuff is alone, so maybe I'm tired of being alone a lot, so I just don't want to do those things. That might be true, but I don't think it's intimidation, like with the writing it could be that yeah it's not just that it's alone, but that I can't quiet my thoughts a lot of times, I can't focus. But I think that's more about the self criticism and there's always editorial voices going on. [0:24:15] (pause)

CLIENT: But I think, see, the flip side is in the past when I would go out alone, was it really for the right reason? You know what I'm saying? Like now I don't because I don't want to. I'm not looking for girls everywhere like trying to connect, and why can't I have a girl, you know a lot of that was about finding girls. (pause) So it's good, like I don't have to do that now.

THERAPIST: You may just be tired of it.

CLIENT: Yeah like I'm tired of it, like I totally and truly, like almost every night now if I'm not doing anything else, you know I'll feel restless, but it gets dark so early, I'll start feeling restless around eight. Between eight and like10. I just hop in the car, I mean that's how I know I getting closer to going to the gym, I get out of the house. You know what I mean? I get dressed, I just get a Dunkin and I kind of work actually. I just plug in my IPhone. I listen to songs I'm trying to finish. I just drive around. (Laughing) and I have no problem. [0:25:21]

THERAPIST: At night?

CLIENT: Yeah. The streets are, and do you know downtown well at all?

THERAPIST: Yeah

CLIENT: Yeah, it's like mellow. It's my home, you know what I mean? It's peaceful, it's quiet, and if I want I'll go to fucking Target. They're always open to God knows whatever hours. I just like (Chuckling) take a stroll. Look at some knickknacks, leave, I don't know. Like it doesn't bother me, like I don't feel like I'm pathetic, or I feel like a dude that's in control of what, I'm not spending money, you know? I don't want to go to a bar and just sit there, ah look at some chicks, and what is that? That's fine sometimes if you generally, like Tuesday, I generally wanted a beer. I was like, you know what? I want a cold beer. I came down, I went to a bar because my friend works there, really nice guy. I had like one beer. Dave came down with his dog, we hung out, I had like two beers. I went home. [0:26:16]

CLIENT: That's different, you know what I mean? But before where I would be out every night, you know, it's just like, I'm just trying to find something. (pause) So yeah I think there's, yeah it's that whatever deep anxiety that's I think is in it's last throws kind of? It's deep in there. It's hard to for some reason, it's just harder. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well I have since start wondering about, [inaudible] they're talking about this show that you were realizing [inaudible] and down in the City benefits show, you just didn't feel like practice for or going down for.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It has a little of that feel the way you keep saying I think something else is going to, I'm going to be able to do this soon. [0:27:11]

CLIENT: Right, Right.

THERAPIST: But it's like you bring up being in a bar and seeing girls or, as that motivation to be out starts dying off it's just not the central motivating force, for that validation. You know there can be this lull for a little while before you find why else you would do things.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like if it's not to get noticed or seen, or be a rock star or get validated like…

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: Why do you go sit and write? If it's not for the end goal of being famous?

CLIENT: That's right, yeah.

THERAPIST: Or being known by the world? You know the [inaudible] fantasies.

CLIENT: That's totally true. Yeah that's totally true.

THERAPIST: Why would you go to the gym even, if it's not for someone to notice your body or you know like, why would you do that?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, when you're feeling more comfortable, yeah like I don't know, I'm not like a fat dude, Oh! That, well I'll remember what I was going to say, but you're totally right yeah. No it is, and that causes I think that whatever that deep anxiety is that triggers that in a way. Because it's like, oh shit now you gotta do things because you like yourself? Because that's what you're saying, like nows like no, I enjoy my life, I like the way things are. Things are kind of okay, you know what I mean? [0:28:23] So I think then that thing really digs in, you know it's like wait what? (Chuckling) Like you know. So tied into that, you know what's crazy? Lately when I look in the mirror, Iike I generally, I don't mean this like every second I'm looking in the mirror, but when I'm washing my face or whatever. I caught myself like maybe two days ago, I was like whoa, like I generally like the way I look. That was weird, that was a weird moment. That was, that was…

THERAPIST: I don't know that I've ever heard you say that before.

CLIENT: Yeah, isn't that crazy? I definitely noticed it, I was like whoa. I don't know if I've ever like in a genuine way, not like oh yeah I look great or whatever you know. I look well yeah. [0:29:15] You know, that was weird. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's so, so different.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So I think yeah, part of that is, yeah it's like now it's like well why? (pause) In the past I think I was going to the gym because it was, not for the wrong reason, but it was a little bit like yeah I want to be muscular, you know it think girls like that better, and like it was coming from a place of negativity. It'll make up for the fact that I'm not six foot two, or you know all these awful kinds of things. So and now that I don't feel that as much, now it's like ehh. (Laughing) Like. (pause) [0:30:07]

THERAPIST: Right, if it's not going there to improve upon something you're disappointed in,

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: or fix something, or make something better. In a way you haven't had the space to think why else you would then do things like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Would you go just for health reasons?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Just to stay in shape for your health, not for appearance, but for health. Or because it feels good.

CLIENT: That has been coming up more now. See that's the change, now it's like, yeah you know what? I just want to be healthy. Now like I'm 40, and like I just you know. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's good for you, every doctor will say that.

CLIENT: Yeah, this is good for you. And the thing is even when I went and it was maybe from not the best kind of motivation, I felt better. I mean regardless of why I was going, I did like it. You know, and I saw results, so yeah. (pause) [0:31:00]

CLIENT: Yeah I guess you're right, there's like this period now that I remember it's like yeah it's like a weird lull where I'm like (pause) like it's, I see, like for example yesterday I didn't just go to Dunkin, like it was 8:30 or 9, I went I got my coffee, then I went to Target, then I went to Star, came home. I had these Christmas lights, but when I got Cecelia I realized that I had to put them, I was worried that she might you know. So it took me awhile, obviously I've had Cecelia for a while. I did it yesterday, it took me like half and hour. I went, got the hooks, put them up. That's a big deal for me, you know. [0:32:02] (30 second pause)

THERAPIST: Writing then sounds like, in your literal way it will head right now, but right now it feels like it is this place that really is imbued with harsh self criticism. Maybe your not, like the gym as you're letting go of the reasons that are the harsh ones, like trying to think what would be positive reasons why I would do this thing for me. [0:33:00]

CLIENT: Yeah that I already get like I can tell that's the next thing that's going to cave you know what I mean? Because that's, I mean, I can just fell that. But writing is also, but it's not just that, it's more complicated because I'm overwhelmed with like information or stories, or I don't even know where to start, you know. That's the other tough thing about writing. I'm just completely overwhelmed, and I don't know, I guess there really is nothing to do about that other than just. Once you can let go of the self editing part, then you just start writing, even if you don't know what you're writing. It's a novel, it's a memoir whatever it is you just start putting things on paper. But that is tough, because it is like literally I don't know where to start, you know? That's always kind of hard. You know other people, other people sit there and don't know what to write because they're trying to come up with ideas, you know. I have I mean just everything that's happened to me, or my family story could fill novels, so (pause) [0:34:13]

THERAPIST: Yes, I know, so I was thinking where you started off today, with this feeling of [inaudible] I go out now, I don't quite know what to say when people say how are you? What's up? You used to have a kind of manner socially, and even in here about there's always a story, there's always you'll never guessed what happened to me this week. And then there's a story in the present. I think some of that has been, is kind of when you talk about being able to say a lot without actually saying that much, that if there's an exciting story, but to try to come back down, getting away from the circus stories into what are the real deeper stories. I think actually isn't as easy as might, there's a lot up here, but actually from your words [0:35:08]

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: Finding words for it, even in here

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: It's sort of like you don't know quite how to get in.

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying, yeah that's what I'm saying. When I sit down, in my mind I think about ok my grandparents story, like I'll think of the things, you know, but then when I sit down to try to write, I don't know what the fuck to say about it. You know because I just say they took a boat Assyria in 1947 or whatever. I don't know what around that I, like you said, I don't know how to get under that, and be like what's the story there. Because it's just one that's very difficult, but two I don't know if it's just too overwhelming, or it's too you know. [0:36:00]

CLIENT: But I don't want to just, I think it's just also that's the work, I mean any writer would totally like no fucking shit Sherlock, that's, that's why you sit there for a few hours trying to figure out, you know. It's your creating a world, even if that world existed, it doesn't exist now, you're creating it. Yeah of course, that's really hard you know? But yeah so I think it's that, but yeah it's also that I don't, because it has to do with me in someway, maybe it's just.

THERAPIST: I think there is more to the piece of it being alone. I mean I remember, I think it was last week, maybe the week before. I was asking you, I asked you some pretty pointed questions about what was, how was affection expressed with your mother, like kind of what did that look like? You kept saying, I don't know. I just can't remember, I don't know I can't remember, I don't know, it's like a lot of I don't knows. It literally felt like there's something why you know about what that was like, but there are no words yet. There is no story yet for that relationship, and I you know, there may be a lot of feeling attached to that story, so it's not, it's not verbalizable yet, and words are trying every now and then the stories that filled our lives will pop up, like hearing about your apartment, and just that of this moment where all this detail came out. I felt like, there's a story, there's a story here that I've never heard before. That came from somewhere. Something happened, I couldn't get that, but I think that [0:37:44]

CLIENT: Yeah maybe that's what it is, yeah it's like I can't, I can't get objective enough, or I can't get enough distance to write about these things. I guess (1 minute, 25 second pause)

[0:39:25]

CLIENT: Oh, I did see a crazy dream, that kind of is connected. Do we have time?

THERAPIST: Yes we do.

CLIENT: I saw a dream the other day that we were living downtown, and I think I even know that street, kind of. And it was like this nicer, kind of like single family house kind of thing, and it was me and my dad, but my mom wasn't my mom. I have no idea who this lady was, but it wasn't my mom. And there was a grandmother there, but it wasn't my grandmother. It was fucking insane, and the weird thing was, it seemed like we were happier, or happy or something. (Whispering) It was really weird. [0:40:09] I wrote some of down and emailed to myself but forgot to, and like the drummer, my drummer came over to drop off some gear. I don't know why him, He's just like "Hey man, what's up?" and he says something like "Oh I don't know your dad" or something like that, and I said something like, oh you know, he's like my favorite person, or something like that. But yeah, there were some other parts I wrote, but it was weird, it was really weird. It was like a good

THERAPIST: Kind of a good dream.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was a good dream, but the mom wasn't my mom. (Whispering) That's really strange.

THERAPIST: It wasn't anyone in particular?

CLIENT: I know that it was still an Assyrian, like because I think we were speaking Assyrian, I think. Or we were mixing Assyrian and English or something, but [0:41:09]

THERAPIST: Do you remember anything else about her?

CLIENT: I don't think so. You know she was some white lady you know. She definitely seemed motherly. She had kind of shorter hair I think. Maybe reddish hair or something? I don't know. And the grandmother I remember for some reason the grandmother was kind of like well-dressed. Maybe had her hair in a bun, or something? I don't know. (Chuckling) It's just really weird. (pause) And the drummer, (Chuckling) I remember the drummer brought, one of the things he brought was this huge guitar, it was huge! And I was all excited for some, I was like oh man this is one of those nylon Strats, I don't know what I was saying.

THERAPIST: Nylon? [0:42:04]

CLIENT: You know like the classical guitars have nylon strings instead of metal? And I like playing those. I've never had one, I don't know why, but I like playing them, and this one had nylon strings. I was like oh cool it has nylon strings. Very strange. And it was different because it wasn't the kind of dream where me and my dad like I'm just crying, like hugging my dad. Like I was at a reunion dream or something? It wasn't like that, it was just like here we are.

THERAPIST: In the life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Mother and it's happy.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And someone shows up with a big guitar with your favorite strings on it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's like it's a good that things are. You're taken care of, you feel loved.

CLIENT: But then it's not my mom because I've extracted myself from, like I'm just feeling better about. I don't need a dream where she's there, and she's annoying me or I'm yelling at her. It's just a symbolic mom or whatever I guess. I don't know. [0:43:10]

THERAPIST: Or a wish for a different mom.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To be continued.

CLIENT: Okay.

[0:43:30]

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