TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What's going on?

THERAPIST: Not much.

CLIENT: Some like incredible things happening. I don't know, it's crazy. It feels good. I sat down yesterday, so yesterday I had that thing again where between 8 and 10 I'm kind of like a little restless or whatever. Wait was it yesterday? Yeah it was yesterday. I could have gone to this show at The Middle East, I could have seen it. I went and did my Dunkin as usual, did a little tour around downtown listening to some snippets from some songs and whatever. I came home and I did my taxes. I sat down and did all my taxes back to 2008. [0:01:09]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was like dude it was so easy, and it's not like I'm complicated, you know what I mean? You got your W2, the EZ form, whatever the fuck, and of course mostly I was getting refunds. Not much, but you know a hundred bucks here, one-fifty there, and I owed like $17 on one state. It was just all so silly, I was like, are you kidding me, this is it? This is what I was avoiding? Like it's so weird, you know? Now of course it also made me feel better, okay so I'm not a fugitive. (Laughing) Like I don't know, a few of them I think I didn't even have to file after the, I didn't even realize now when you're single there's this big deduction like $4400 or whatever. If you're married its $8000. I'm talking about the state. But I mean some of them I didn't even really have to file. I didn't even make enough to really even file. [0:02:10]

THERAPIST: But it might have even helped paying over your head still that you should have

CLIENT: Yeah, just the idea that it's taxes, it's what we all do, it's not a big deal, and yeah just another thing to make me like I'm not part of, you know it's just so stupid. But anyway I did it.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: Yeah, and then today I sent out all the last minute student loan stuff so it's all out.

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: Yeah, pretty cool. Yup.

THERAPIST: What's it like? It's so, so different.

CLIENT: It was pretty cool, I mean I was sitting there doing my taxes and I was like I don't even need white noise right now. You know I had Cecelia, she was like a perfect distraction. She's so attached to me, that's kind of fun in a way. That's my white noise. You know what I mean? In a good way. She's constantly, she's like a dog. When I'm sitting there she'll come and put her paws, like how dogs stand up like. Just sit there and just look at me and meow and rub her head against my leg or whatever. It's like perfect. I just cranked it out, it was like this is didn't even take long. It wasn't like oh my god this is going to take forever. Once I did one I was like wait a minute, it's all the same formula. Just punching in numbers. [0:03:35]

THERAPIST: Like [inaudible] is just fade out.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yup. And then the other really big thing, of course I think they are all connected, but I think I'm gonna do a tour in May, and I think I'm gonna play some shows in Assyria.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, so this was something I kind of thought about, and last night I spoke to, I have a really good friend who I don't see often anymore but now he lives on the West Coast, but he's also American-Assyrian. Really, really nice guy, and we were just talking, and I didn't even say anything, and he knows a lot about music, the business side of music. So he was like yah man tour. He's like very, very supportive. He's not a bullshit artist. He's a pretty tough cookie, so I trust what he says. Before I could say anything he was like man, you know you might not think it's a big market or maybe be so worthwhile but he's like I think you should hit up Assyria. [0:04:48] And when he said that it was just, I felt so, I was like dude that's crazy, I thought about that off and on. So we had this long conversation about that, and then that just got me thinking more and more. You know it's just really, I think yes, something kind of definitely freed up. Because I was like well, but how do I get a whole band over there. Like these guys have girlfriends and whatever or lives. And he was like dude, listen man, so I don't know your band. I've never seen your band. He was like, but I know your music. Those are your songs, right? That's what matters. I know you're not the type to get session musicians, but he was like dude you could even send your CD ahead of time to Assyria and there would be people lining up to be your backing band. They'll learn the shit and they'll play it. He's like if you don't want to do that, just do what a lot of artists do now, just grab your laptop, just a solo act but with you know some backing tracks. [0:05:51] They integrate into your, so I don't know, I was like. He was really, he was really, that was a good talk. He was dude you can't over think it man, you just gotta book it, and he's like you're really, really talented. He's like I can tell you're in the right frame of mind. You gotta do it man, these are amazing songs and you can really build an audience. So it's cool. (pause)

THERAPIST: So loving.

CLIENT: Yeah he's a tough character, but we have a really like bAbilerly type, yeah. And he just knows his shit you know, so when he talks he's not just blowing air. [0:06:43]

THERAPIST: This is Abil at the bar?

CLIENT: This is another, Abil is a fairly common Assyrian name, yeah. The Abil at the bar is the older guy. I mean Abil is like that too, he's very, but he's more, because that's so much more like family and he's older. He doesn't really know how a lot of this shit works. It's not.

THERAPIST: And he's Lebanese.

CLIENT: Lebanese-Assyrian, that's right. I mean they've been here since like ‘72, but so yeah it's not like other people don't give me that support, but Abil, because Abil and I are the same age, and he's American-Assyrian, and he understands the music business. It's much more concrete and inspirational, not inspirational like validating or whatever.

THERAPIST: Well you know it's really grounded in the alley, you trust him.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. He's like man I'll e-mail you my contacts. I know people there. He's very, you know. Just talking numbers and whatever. He's right, he's like dude just book some shows in Assyria and just decide on, anchor it, you know. Have shows, and then shows, and then you just come through Europe. You play some shows in Europe and you come back to the States. The thing to do is just book something in Assyria, and then let's say something in Paris, and he's just don't even worry about the middle. Then you start filling that in, just you know. [0:08:06] It was a really good talk, it really was. He was like dude if it's just about numbers that you're not doing it, like money, he's like dude, what is that? That's just pen and paper. That's just sitting down putting numbers, adding, subtracting, and figuring it out. There's always a way. He's like do another kick starter. He's like what is it if it's just you? What's that like $1200, $1300 ticket? You raised five grand. What's $1300? Especially after your record comes out, after more people know you, after people are excited. And now you're gonna go on a tour, it's exciting. What's $1300 fucking dollars? Really cool. And also it helped because I have noticed that I've been worrying about the band dynamic, like I don't wanna feel dependent on them, which I already have started to, you know what I mean? Cause I love having the band, but I do need to start thinking about that. I mean these guys love being in the band, but other than James, the drummer, he's 24 he's not married. He's still in that, he and I are similar that way. He's willing to like yeah man lets hit the road, or lets you know. But the other two guys I don't, I think they would definitely want to, I just think it's logistically I think it would be tough. You know? [0:09:23] And even with James, the guy's broke, how would we get a ticket for him? I don't know, I don't know how bands, I think talk to other people about how bands make this happen but.

THERAPIST: It also sounds like you really conceive of this as your project.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not a band touring.

CLIENT: Yeah Roxy, I think Roxy kind of drilled that. He was like dude, that would be great if the whole band could go with you, but he's like these are your songs. That's all there is too it. So yeah he's like I'm sure there's a different dynamic with the band onstage and all that. He's like that's neither here nor there. You'll have a record, you'll have a product to push, so he's like these days it's so easy. Once you set it all up, you go up there with your pedals, everything's queued up. First of all, your songs are already good just acoustic, but it's like I understand these days it's like being on the Internet. It doesn't matter how good your songs are, people can't listen to a whole hour of a dude and his acoustic guitar. That's really hard to pull off, even I get bored, even the best songwriters. Because there's so many ways you can make it more dynamic, why wouldn't you? So, but there's yeah it can absolutely be done. [0:10:37]

You know there's no reason why it can't happen. So, I don't know. (pause) I don't know yeah something definitely, some switch has definitely gone off. Yesterday Kelly cancelled, she couldn't make it, and I didn't care. (Chuckling) I was almost relieved, and I was like I'm kind of tired anyway. So I'm gonna see her tonight. And I don't think I am gonna tell her that I don't wanna see other people. I thought about that too. I was like you know what? See that's the problem, there's no reason to say that right now. Just keep having a good time. So, right? I mean I think that, say it if you want to say it, but I was like you know I don't. I do that often, I say something like that and then I'm trapped, I've already committed now. Why? Just go with it, it's going well, and you know. (pause)

And on top of that, then I saw my mom. I brought down the cat a little bit to see my mom last night. Which I haven't mind doing, I go down there, maybe once in the evening, I'll go down just sit for a little bit, let the cat. You know my mom loves the cat and all that. So when I last night told her, I think I'm gonna go to Assyria in May. She did the typical what she does, she doesn't get it. At first she was like that's great, but then she didn't understand, but how are you gonna make money? I was like well you know I talked to Abil and he's confident that I could draw easily 50 to 100 people to shows in Assyria, whatever. She's like that's nothing, what's 50 to 100 people? (Laughing) So it felt so good to not care that she's being. I was like well ma, what am I, Michael Jackson? [0:12:38]

CLIENT: Like what, I was like you expect me all of the, what do you, I was like think about what your saying. It's like everybody starts somewhere right? Like yeah, but you've been doing this a long time and blah, blah, blah. I was like no, I've been doing it alone a long time, and not properly. I have not been doing it this way, everything has been half-ass because of all the other bullshit. Like it felt very good to be like I don't upset anymore. I just tell her, you know what I mean? And then she gets it when I tell her that stuff.

THERAPIST: She did?

CLIENT: She did, I mean she's still confused. She's like well, you know. But then when I told her, Mom, I'm not going there for one concert to 50 people. It's a tour right? I was like so there's going to be a bunch of concerts. She's like oh. I was like yeah. So I'm probably gonna come back hopefully having made a profit. Maybe not huge, but whatever, that's a big deal to go and come back with a few hundred bucks in your pocket. So like oh. And I was like plus I don't have to quit my job. I'm lucky I can work anywhere. I mean I could probably talk to these people, like look, I'm going on a tour, but there's no reason why I can't work. I mean it's on my laptop. Wherever I am you just send me, whatever. I'll just keep working. [0:13:45] that's a very unique, lucky situation to be in. A lot of artists have to either quit their jobs or they have to take extended periods off where they're not getting paid, or you know. Because their jobs are not telecommuting, they can't work from, so I'm very lucky that way. And then it felt good, then when she said something else, I don't remember what she said about, but it was something about her, and I was like Mom you know what? This isn't, it's not about you. I'm doing something for myself, because that's my goal. So I don't know what you're talking about (Chuckling). She said, no no I know, I know, that's not what I mean. Then she get's all, you know. I was like all right, well settle down. But it felt very good to be like it didn't even faze me. I just didn't care you know. [0:14:34]

THERAPIST: So many different openings to get potentially draw into something old

CLIENT: But I got a little frustrated, but now it's frustrated the way any kid who talks to their parents. It wasn't like I didn't take it so deep. I was like you don't know what you're talking about. (Laughing) Like whatever.

THERAPIST: It didn't crush you sense of yourself, the fact that you could pursue the error with no you don't get what I'm saying to you, and explain.

CLIENT: Right, right, right, yeah. And that was the other thing, the more, nothing turned into an argument, you know, because she did kind of get what I was saying, more or less. She just, you know. Now it's at a place where it's more normal. I think she's being like any old school mother that kind of doesn't understand some of this stuff. Worries about their kid, you know whatever. All this shit. [0:15:22] But at the same time she did start understanding when I just explained it very clearly instead of just like in the past where I wouldn't either tell her anything, or I would just blowup. I would be so frustrated, you know? (pause)

THERAPIST: Just thinking about your dream. That you mentioned at the very end yesterday, so it's your family scene, but it's not your mother. It's almost like you're describing the feeling of approaching her with another, it's not your mother inside you anymore. She's outside, but there's more of just you inside instead of all the vulnerabilities that are connected to her.

CLIENT: Well I think what's happening with her is what's happening with me and everybody in my life now. I'm not taking things personally. I'm kind of, I think I'm just more and more comfortable just doing my own thing. I don't really care if I hear from X so often, or I don't hear from X. I kind of don't care anymore. I just feel like, like Abil and I were talking about that. It's like now I'm in a place where (pause) I don't know, you gotta strike while the iron is hot, you know? [0:17:12] And you can't be distracted by stuff. Especially from Abil, I take that to heart because I know kind of what he's trying to tell me. I mean the guy works in insurance. He's moved a lot. I think he would much rather make a living. He had a record label, which was very good actually. But you know just didn't make enough, or whatever. So I kind of get the subtext of what he's telling me. He's like you're not married, you have something very valuable to share with people. He's like you're insulting your audience if you deprive them of you know. It's like other people would kill to have some talent. But it's very, a lot of stuff maybe I already kind of knew, or I tell myself, but when you hear like that from someone who is so like direct, and not fucking around. [0:18:23]

THERAPIST: It's the words you never heard as a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah, or I've heard from people, but because now I'm ready to not just deflect someone who is saying that you know what I mean? I've heard that from people, like talented, but I think now because I'm ready to absorb that, and not just be like oh yeah well maybe I'm not really talented, or something. Make up excuses, you know.

THERAPIST: There's an openness all of the sudden to you, maybe they actually mean it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe you can see that, what they see, a little bit.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) [0:19:29]

THERAPIST: This may seem like a faraway thing to think about, but it does make me wonder. What it would feel like, if you imagined, if it crossed your mind, what it would feel like to be away from this space for a little while?

CLIENT: I haven't thought about it. Yeah I mean, I don't know it would be weird. I'd miss it definitely yeah. Maybe I did think about it briefly, but I was thinking more about Cecelia. I was like damnit, now I'm like really attached to her, like that's, shit I'm one of those people now.

THERAPIST: Who gets attached?

CLIENT: Well to the pet, you know? But now it's her and I it's just getting ridiculous now. I mean now she sleeps basically like up here, she nuzzles. She likes hugs, if I have my arms up there, she hugs me. She puts her paws around my arm. It's I've never seen anything like this. [0:20:37]

THERAPIST: You're close.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah really really close.

THERAPIST: Have you thought about without her what it would be like?

CLIENT: Yeah I was like who the hell is gonna take care of her? If someone did something wrong or she I don't know. She got out of the house or something. It's like really nervous. But yeah of course that would be weird to be away from here. I mean I don't think I would be gone that long, but yeah still whatever even if it's just a month. [0:21:24]

And I'm also not, I mean I'm not getting over excited about it. I mean of course these things take planning and you know you can't just, you know we'll see. Like I hopefully I will be able to figure it out. (pause)

THERAPIST: There's planning and there is in a context where there might be some loses, like missing Cecelia for a month. But it's sort of bringing it into the reality of how would that happen in your real life? What would it feel like in your real life? Sounds like, part of, you know just doing your taxes, like approaching real life and getting your taxes done. It feels like you're turning your mind more towards the reality of what's possible. [0:22:31]

CLIENT: Yeah, and that's the thing like. I mean it so outweighs missing Cecelia, or missing coming here. That's a good thing, you know what I mean? It's like and it's the opposite, like whoa then it'll be good to come back, and see you, or see Cecelia, or whatever you know. I think that's a much healthier (Laughing) you know. Because otherwise those are the whack jobs like my adviser here where it's like his cat is his best friend in the world, and that wouldn't be me anyway, but that's the opposite. There's your life out in the world and then there's these additional things that are great, but they are not your, can't be like your escape, or you know what I mean to block out the world. [0:23:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think I'm bringing up only a sore thing. There could be not doing going to Assyria, not touring as an avoidance, as a sort of relying on something that actually isn't taking advantage of your real talents and traits and living them out right? That's what you're trying not to

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And there may be some times where there have been decisions you've made kind of in a bubble to have not thinking through what the consequences would be, and I think that's all I'm just acting like I have consequences well but that actually

CLIENT: Oh oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Not to say they're bigger or that worth not going at all! [0:24:10]

CLIENT: I know, that's why this feels so good. This feels like, this makes up for like the stupid decision not to go to Paris, that time. You know what I mean? It's like, what am I crazy? This fucking broad will be here when I get back, and who is she anyway? We're just dating and what the fuck, who cares? I mean not in that way, but you know what I mean. Like you gotta look out for yourself, and not in a bad way. You gotta look out for yourself in ways that matter to you. And if someone is going to be there when you get back, they're going to be there when you get back. And also it's the opposite. She, if it was me now, I would have broken up with her right there. It's like you're trying to convince me not to go, and that's what she did. So

THERAPIST: Like your mother.

CLIENT: Yeah, she kind of convinced me, well they're not going to pay for you to go there? But that's nonsense. She should have been like that's an amazing opportunity. I don't really regret that so much anymore, in the sense that it was not like I was gonna go there and my whole life was gonna change. I mean I'd already been to London. I kind of knew what it was. But that's kind of not the point. It would have just been something nice to do, and I don't like cancelling on people last minute. I don't like that. And know I definitely burned that bridge I think. They're not going to have me back nor should they probably. Lots of people want that gig. So they don't have to. So it's not like the end of the world, but it was just like kind of unnecessary awkwardness, like why? But also it had nothing to do with her. That was me, I should have all along been like how do I get the money to go to Paris? [0:25:52] What was it a grand? 800 bucks? I mean come on, borrow it, just be like. It's like I just didn't want to go, or something. Once I got back for some reason I didn't wanna. So yeah I totally know what you're saying. Where as now it's the opposite. Now I feel restless here, because it is where [inaudible] feel real man. I mean and even with the band like I should just be playing shows. What am I doing? That would be so easy, with one person and your laptop, and your guitar. What the fuck? That's so easy. Part of me of course does want to, it's just more comfortable to stay here. I've got a nice routine you know. But that other side of me now is getting much stronger, and be like dude, you gotta just suck it up you know. That's basically what Abil said too, he's like dude you can't worry about how it's gonna go or if people are gonna like it, or how many. Who the fuck cares? He's like once you get going man, that things will start happening. Not ever show is going to be amazing, he's like you're a musician, you're a songwriter you gotta just get out there. [0:27:14]

THERAPIST: Just do it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (1 min. pause)

CLIENT: You know it's weird, Like I just, I guess I just feel much freer to do. Like last night then I went to this amazing website I found that lists in detail all the gear that Radiohead uses. I think every musician, at least every musician who likes them or songwriters, fascinated by you know. I don't know if you listen to them, but they, their soundscapes are really incredible but yet they sound organic they don't sound like cold. So I just sat there studying, I was like mesmerized, I was just studying all their gear and what they use. So it's weird like I think I'm in this place now, and I remember while I was doing this, I was like why am I not unable to focus on this, you know what I mean? So I think there is something to be said for (pause) You go through phases of your life where, like right now I'm just very focused on music. That's what is taking up my mind. [0:29:15] So I think it's not that bad that I'm not able to get so much writing done. It just is what it is. (pause) So I think the idea is like well yeah, but just because I'm not selling a lot of records, you know what I mean? As if that negates all the hard work and obsessive dedication, you know what I'm saying? Well like no I should also be writing the book, but no, whether millions of people are hearing it or not, I'm devoting a lot of time and mental energy, and emotional everything. So it's like I can't just switch that off and then start writing a great novel, like that's not me. [0:30:00]

THERAPIST: Just think about the fact that you even have both going on.

CLIENT: I know, I know. A few people have told me that.

THERAPIST: That's so, that doesn't happen. People aren't trying to be starving artists and doing music, or being a writer and try having a side job. You're trying to do both, or at least telling yourself you should be doing both.

CLIENT: No some people have told me that, like in a joking way they're like dude. My friend Donnie even says like dude it's not even like you shooting your mouth off, you're an established good writer, poet, and an established. He's like dude, that's you know.

THERAPIST: That's real.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's finally kind of sinking in that yeah I don't have to keep proving things, like whoever gets it gets it, whoever doesn't I don't really give a shit. (pause) But yeah I think that was last night that was I think a big. I was like wait a minute, I'm fucking driving around every night listening to song fragments, working on lyrics, like I'm working hard at this shit. Thinking about what gear to use, and that's. [0:31:21]

THERAPIST: Yeah you haven't mentioned that part yesterday when you were talking about driving around. You added today that you were listening to something that you actually

CLIENT: No I did mention it.

THERAPIST: You did?

CLIENT: Maybe I didn't explain it clearly.

THERAPIST: Or maybe I meant I thought you were listening to the radio or something. You're actually listening to your own work.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I have a full playlist of looped. Either I'll have the whole song without lyrics, or a fragment that I know is a song it's just waiting, so I'll just pick one or two, whatever. I'll just loop it. So it just plays over and over, and I'll just drive around. And I'll kind of babble. I usually write by, I write the music first and then I have a melody in my head, so there are no words. So I just sing nonsense. And then eventually I start putting words to fit that nonsense. Whatever melody. [0:32:15]

THERAPIST: So you're working when you're driving.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's not driving around aimlessly.

CLIENT: Yeah. Most of the time I'm working. Or even if I'm not listening to the music, I'm thinking. It's almost meditative. I'm like already what should I do, how should I do it?

THERAPIST: In your process?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (pause) I think it's just that old idea that maybe I wasn't admitting to myself where it's like I'm just doing all this stuff cause I just want the validate, I want, you know what I mean? I want the more like validation is the right word? I don't know. You know what I mean? [0:33:05] Where as, wait a minute, I have a full time job, job. I work hard at, what am I doing? Of course sometimes I just want to watch Netflix, what the fuck? I'm trying to book shows, I'm trying to manage a band. I don't think that was clicking. (pause)

THERAPIST: What was clicking was to beat yourself up for not writing when you have a full time job, and are really pursuing music.

CLIENT: That's the irony. I am writing. I'm probably writing songs all the time, you know, but I guess I'm just, maybe that's so second nature or. It's like yeah, but no one knows them or you know. Or there's all these fragments, they're not done. What does that mean? They will be done. I am finishing songs, so what? I think it's just nonsense, it's all just about, I think Abil is right, you know, people find ways to not go for what they should be going for. [0:34:27]

THERAPIST: You said, it's so interesting that you're saying that the voice comes in, but what's that, people don't know them as though that's what makes it valuable and real.

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying, yeah.

THERAPIST: But that and your history, that's it. If people don't know that you're working on fragments, that they are all there, there's a lot. Funny I didn't know how much is going on, as I feel like you're telling me something new today. About how much is going on with this. But that was never valued, as something that is going on that's really important. [0:35:05]

CLIENT: So it's finally lie, I mean like I've been telling, I tell people. They're like so oh you've got new stuff already? I have like over 50 songs brand new. On top of older, older shit that now I've just forgotten about because I'm working on all this new stuff. So I think finally I'm getting that

THERAPIST: That you're prolific.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So I think finally it's hitting that you know what? That's work. That's like two, no not two, that's like 5 records of 10 songs each. And I know myself a lot of them are keepers, they're not. Let's say out of the 50, I would say 30 of them I would say are good songs. So that's unheard of. Dave tells me that all the time. He's like dude you constantly have stuff. So I think I'm finally trying to not just intellectualize that. You know. (pause) [0:36:18]

THERAPIST: You're starting to

CLIENT: Like last time I was why am I? I'm finally gonna talk to Dave or one of my friends and have them just come over and set me up so I can record better at home. Because I can be making CD quality recordings at home, and just release stuff all the time. Why not? A lot of my favorite artists are releasing shit all the time. EP's, and singles and just get it out there. So that's my next, that's the next thing. (pause) [0:37:11]

CLIENT: It's funny because I think it's full circle, you know. I started, music was the first thing. Then I went to poetry and all that. I mean it was almost simultaneous but music was the real obsession. It's funny now I think I'm getting back to that, like all that. I told you all the crazy recording I used to do. So I think now I'm like what am I doing? I could just be making amazing things at home. It's not that hard. Once someone, I know the basics theoretically and I can do some, I do some rough recording, but if one of my friends who knows what they are doing just sits down with me one day, is ok you just need this, this, this. This is how it lets you do one track, this is how you do it, blab, blab. That's nothing, and I'm the type once I get going, that's it. I'll get obsessed with doing it right.

THERAPIST: You'll figure it out.

CLIENT: Yeah because I love it. Just like with the videos. Yeah, yeah. (pause) [0:38:18]

THERAPIST: So many ways you discounted parts of yourself as not important.

CLIENT: It's incredible.

THERAPIST: It's so strong. It's been, not now, but it's been so strong in you and I even can feel the pull and this almost losing touch with the reality of what you do. How you can beat yourself up for not being a writer, not writing anything. You published a book of poetry at one of the most reputable poetry publishing houses. You were recruited as a poet. How much that gets forgotten in your own memory. It's an affected knowing of yourself and it's real, that really happened. [0:39:17]

CLIENT: And I think what ends up happening is you kind of project that. I mean I'm already, I mean I think, I don't want to say I'm a humble guy, but you know I have that part of my Dad where it's like this, I do tend to do the aw shucks thing a lot. And a lot of that is genuine. I do feel like whatever, we all do our, I mean I don't know I just think that's a, I like that quality in people. I'm glad I have that. But, if you're like that and you also keep discounting in other ways in more negative ways, you know what I mean? That's not good. It would be one thing if I always carried myself as yeah I'm a poet and a whatever PhD. But I'm not an asshole about it, you know what I mean? That's different, but when you're constantly doing the aw shucks thing, and you're

THERAPIST: And also not feeling good about it. [0:40:12]

CLIENT: It's easy for even your friends to kind of not get what you've done. You know and that's, and then of course I get upset that they don't, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: It's like yeah but you're acting kind of like oh yeah published this book. So it is one of those things.

THERAPIST: Like you say that, but if you're not convinced yourself. That's the pill. They hear the affect, and not the words.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: Which I think is changing. Some of the ways you described

CLIENT: No it definitely has changed. Even before this, I know it's changed. When I'm out and about now and I'm talking to people I'm much more like this is what I do, this is what is going on. You know. Yeah, it's very different now. (1 min 30 sec pause) [0:41:00]

CLIENT: [0:42:29] This is one of those things were normally I wouldn't tell people until things are going to happen, like going on tour. But I'm wondering, and I think this is what Abil was trying to tell me. Like maybe in this case it's the opposite, I have to tell people cause then it will force me to you know what I mean? Because who cares? If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out, but at least I think it will force me to actually start trying to make it happen instead of just thinking it in my head. Because normally I've gotten away from telling people I'm gonna do this or I'm gonna do that, I don't like that. I think in this case I've got to outmaneuver myself. [0:43:12]

THERAPIST: That used to maybe give you an out to not do it.

CLIENT: Exactly. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And now you're saying you think you're ready not to have that out.

CLIENT: Yeah, and also the more when you say it out loud, it's more exciting. You know what I mean? You're like whoa this, it just makes it more like real instead of some, and that was what Abily was trying to say. He's like dude it's really not a, not that it's not a big deal, but he's like you know, what is it a ticket? Think about it man, it's just a ticket.

THERAPIST: And some leg work.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah obviously.

THERAPIST: But that's it.

CLIENT: Right. He's like your book the show in New York, except it's not in New York. But really what's the difference? A couple of e-mails, and finalizing a date or something? I mean what? [0:44:00]

THERAPIST: It's not insurmountable, like taxes.

CLIENT: Right, right. (1 min pause)

THERAPIST: So Monday? 10'oclock?

CLIENT: At 10 o'clock. Ok. We're good for 10 now? Ok, awesome. Thanks. Have a good weekend. [0:45:12]

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