TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Scheduling. Thanks. The holidays I just wanted to let you know that I will be out on the 24th. Christmas Eve. I will be out just Monday through Wednesday so Thursday and Friday work. I don't know if you're around.

CLIENT: I don't know, yeah I'm not going anywhere.

THERAPIST: Christmas is Tuesday so I'll be here Thursday, Friday so those would work on my schedule, do they work on yours?

CLIENT: That's fine.

THERAPIST: The following week I'm just out New Year's Day so New Year's Eve would also work, does that work?

CLIENT: That's fine, yeah.

THERAPIST: The other thing is that my Friday schedule for a kind of winter intercession right now changes around a little bit, so I wonder if we could find a mid-day time so it's between, starting Friday the 14th of December all the through to the beginning of March. We have to find a slightly earlier time. Mid-day, something like, I'll know definitively but something like 10:40, 11:30, 12:45 sometime in there. Those are all ok? [0:01:12]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Ok, I'll let you know. Definitively.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: Anyone one of those work better than another?

CLIENT: I mean if it's later it's better, but if not that's fine too. It's no big deal.

THERAPIST: After, so March 1st I think is a Friday we can move back to that time, to the 3:10 time then for the rest of this semester.

CLIENT: Okay, cool. (pause) So yeah it looks like I'm gonna run a half-marathon. (Laughing)

THERAPIST: Oh yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah my friends kind of convinced me to do it with them. We'll see I'm gonna try. I figure it's a good way to guilt myself into, it might be fun. It's kind of dorky, but whatever. Could be fun you know. [0:02:05] I'm gonna try.

THERAPIST: Things you're tackling.

CLIENT: Yeah but I'm not taking it to if I don't do it I'm not gonna feel bad. I would never have thought to run a half-marathon, but.

THERAPIST: That's what things are new about, even if you don't do it.

CLIENT: Yeah I kind of don't care really.

THERAPIST: To have it cross your mind that you could do it, or can even envision training for it.

CLIENT: Yeah it was kind of cool, my friends were like we've been wanting to ask you, because we could totally do it. It'll be fun and there's a party afterwards. It's for some charity or something I don't know. Some brewery is having a party afterwards, whatever. So anyway I thought about it, and I was like eh. It's not till February, so there's a chance, you know, to kind of get motivated by then. [0:03:08]

CLIENT: So it's funny like so Friday I went to see Kelly, and I didn't know that her best friend was gonna hang out with us, so it was pretty cool. That's kind of a show of something. It's an expression for girls it's kind of a big deal, and it was really fun. It was really nice. He was a really cool person. They had a great time. I didn't wanna, you know, she has a kid, and I didn't wanna even have to make her feel in anyway like she has to have me over, but also didn't want to drive back, drunk or whatever. So it was kind of fun I got a hotel room kind of in her hood. It was kind of fun. We spent the night there. It was fun. [0:04:09] And then the other thing, like [inaudible] Friday, and then yesterday she kind of sent me a little wink in the afternoon and she came up for coffee. It was so awesome. Yesterday was almost the best day. She just came up for coffee, we hung out for 2 or 3 hours, and she went home. We had really great conversation and hung out. I really, really like her. This is definitely unusual. Like I even told her yesterday, she was laughing, like don't be nervous. I was like I haven't felt like this nervous, but it's totally in a good way, but you know. Like yesterday when we were just hanging out talking, like I could tell my hands were getting sweaty once in a while. [0:05:08] Because I was just like, I was very aware of how fucking normal and just so nice. It's just like (pause)

THERAPIST: You were very aware of how normal you're saying, and that was making you nervous.

CLIENT: Yeah yeah. I mean now I totally am, like for example like yesterday I was definitely the voices in my head were not editing, but being very aware of everything I was saying. Because I said you know, like when I told that I felt kind of nervous, the voices were like why are you telling her that? Don't tell her that! But now I know, she's proven. Like now I know that's that's all me. That's not her, you know what I'm saying? Like now I get that. [0:06:17] Like I know how irrational it is to think that oh maybe she's suddenly not gonna be into me. You know what I mean? Like no one does all that, I mean come on, and on top of that she had work. She worked Sunday, and after work she went home and checked up on her son and her brother whatever and she came over. C'mon man that's a 40 minute drive. Like whatever weird thoughts I have are completely, are completely irrational. (pause) But I think that's important to me now to work on, to continue to work on that, you know what I mean? Because it's definitely there you know? [0:07:06]

CLIENT: She's excited to meet my friends Friday and stuff you know. We were planning to like hang out New Year's Eve. She hates New Year's Eve, I hate New Year's Eve. So it's like yeah. So on the one hand I'm really, I hate to say it like this but I'm really happy. But on the other hand it kind of makes me sad, I don't know what the right word is or what the right emotion is, like maybe not sad, but I'm just very aware of these stupid irrational. I mean on the one hand I know it's great that they are very minimal compared to how it used to be. I don't know. I don't know if that makes, no you know what? Maybe what I'm saying is I'm aware not of the voices per se, I'm aware of the past. That's what I'm aware of, you know what I mean? [0:08:06]

CLIENT: So like when I think I told her I felt a little nervous, like when I thought about it, I was like wow man that's so sad that's really about years and years of having nothing even close to this, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Even as a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah that's what I ‘m saying. Yeah. Like she's just a fucking good person. She apologized again yesterday about that a few years ago, she's like I don't know what happened there. She's like I'm really sorry. Like's she's just a good person you know? We talked a little bit about our growing up and stuff. She said that's she like I've always been really picky, even all through high school. She said I didn't really date a lot in high school at all. I just cared more about my friends and she's like I never wanted my, I didn't want dating to overlap the friendships and get all messy and gossipy. [0:09:14] Like there's something about, And I told her too, I was like I found that so attractive that you just very, like no it's perfect we all have issues you know, but there's something so grounded about her. And it was really sweet, she was like yeah you too. She's like there's something steady. That's such a good, because it's fucking true. I know I have things that I'm working on, but I also know that if the other person approaches dating in a kind of semi-fucking normal way I'm, you know what I mean? I'm not, that was like kind of really nice to hear. I don't know, I'm not sure what I'm getting at, but.

THERAPIST: So much you're getting at I think. Trying to figure it out. [0:10:15]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: One of the things, just getting a little more specific about what you're saying. One of the things that feels like it's kind of haunting and creates some anxiety now is waiting for it's all of sudden like getting a rug pulled out from under or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Yeah it does feel like that.

THERAPIST: There's some feeling built up inside of you that things could be good, good, good, good and all of the sudden not good, and gone.

CLIENT: And suddenly, yeah. That's exactly what it is. It's not even that we'll have an argument someday, or it's nothing like that, it is something very sudden. I feel like, and maybe because that's what's happened. I mean not just in my childhood, but then Samantha, to just. I feel like things have never, and I know those things have nothing to do with this, but that's the feeling that there will be something all of the sudden where she'll just drop off the face of the Earth. [0:11:16] And just suddenly be cold and just done with me, you know?

THERAPIST: So I wonder that from you

CLIENT: Which I know, I know things like that, first of all things like that do happen.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But I also know that in this case that seems incredibly of all the things that could happen, that seems incredibly unlikely, and really irrational, you know? But again I know that up here. I'm feeling better and better about it. But that's what I kind of don't like. I don't like that she has to keep validating, you know what I mean? I know that's part of any normal relationship as you get to know each other you realize more and more wow this person really, really cares about me. Part of that is normal, you start feeling more secure in the relationship, you know. But this kind of, this is definitely at another level. [0:12:16] (pause)

THERAPIST: That hypervigilance for that shoe to drop is stronger. Not that that doesn't happen, of course those things can happen.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like for example yesterday, she didn't think about anything. She didn't think about oh well I just saw him Friday is it gonna be weird that I wanna, you know what I mean? She just did it, you know? I mean I didn't think that much of it, I mean I was actually the one who invited her, It's not like she invited herself, but I just sense something, I don't know. I just sense that maybe she wanted to, I don't know. So I was like you know I'm gonna have coffee, whatever. I was like you know you're more than welcome if you want coffee or something. And she was like I just gotta check on, you know. [0:13:08] You know like (pause) I don't know what I'm saying, but in practice I'm being the same way as she is being for the most part. And maybe she is as nervous as I am, I don't know. She's definitely a little more, not reserved. (pause) I tend to be very expressive, like when I really, really like a girl. I tend to just, I wanna say stuff, about what I think about them. Where as I think for a lot of people that's not so easy. So I totally, I totally understand that. But yeah, so what I'm saying though is that even though I see that, I'm like wow this girl is like she's not thinking about, like she's in this you know what I mean? Her fucking best friend? Like are you kidding me, that's a big deal. But again I get it up here, but here it's like, so today I'm like maybe I shouldn't text her today. I mean there's still a little bit, not so much anymore, but there's still just like this. I don't know man. Oh oh, and Friday I even said, we got pretty tipsy whatever, but it was just so fun we had such a good time, I couldn't help it. I was like listen, you know, It's not a big deal, I don't want you to, but I was like you know I haven't seen anyone else since we've been hanging out, and I was like I don't want too. You know, I just want to see you. She was like yeah me too. And so it was like very just that was it, you know. But instead of, I mean I'm very happy about that, but instead of feeling it here, like what? So she lied to me? [0:14:10] You know what I mean? Like the girl. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that's just fucking unnerving a little bit. That I can take things like that and process them intellectually, but like you said it's just this feeling like yeah she said that but tomorrow she could just disappear you know? I don't know what the fuck that's about. Well no I do know what it's about.

THERAPIST: Well, ok I don't. I mean I guess in. It's a very specific fantasy about what goes on inside that she's there, she's there, she's there and all of the sudden she's not there. It just makes me wonder what, like what comes to mind about that in your childhood? Specifically that. [0:15:03]

CLIENT: I think it's just so much loneliness, or so much aloneness. And then that lead all the way up to someone literally just not be there. Just dropping dead. Then a series of people you know? Maybe not all dying so suddenly, but two of them dying suddenly. So I'm assuming that's what, that combined with already feeling very alone and kind of in my own world. I'm assuming that's you know.

THERAPIST: Maybe I had to hear you say it. I don't think it's, had you been securely attached as a kid, losing your dad I think would feel very differently.

CLIENT: Fuck yeah, are you kidding? Oh my god. Yeah, no shit. [0:16:01]

THERAPIST: In other words it's not just that.

CLIENT: No, no, no no no no. I mean that's the biggest thing I realized here right? Yeah, no it has nothing. My dad, lots of people unfortunately lose their parents. In worse ways, when they are 10, when they are 12, when they are c'mon. But this is definitely, it's the combination of what already was happening plus that, you know what I mean? Of course if I was totally feeling like secure and loved in a good way, and guided. It would be very different, very very different, no doubt. That's one of the things I'm upset about, you know? Like in her case one of the things I can tell is so healthy about her is? She definitely doesn't have a perfect family, like her dad was very eccentric, she has a very interesting family, but I can tell that, we've talked about this. That's one of those things where for me her family is interesting. Just like I say if people meet my mom. You know her dad was a very eccentric, very eccentric interesting person, but not maybe the best Dad all the time. [0:17:12] And also it's not her real, it's not her biological Dad, but basically her Dad. But and he died some years ago. So here's a girl who doesn't know her biological Dad, and her other Dad dies right.

CLIENT: But I can tell because there's such love between her and her brothers, and her mom it seems like. That there's something about her, you know there's just, she's really tight with like two or three high school friends that she's remained really. So that's all you need. That's given her I can tell, you know, I can tell she's probably a really, not probably she is. She really, really loves her son, like she's very. I like that about her. And she's a really good artist, for her to say that's, I don't know how she said it, she said something like it's the thing I'm most proud of or something like that. That's someone that just, you know, I love that. [0:18:17] And I have a lot of that in me, but I feel like with me I've had to prawl and scratch for all of that, you know. So I have it, but I still feel sad about it kind of. And maybe she does too, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? I think people that have that some kind of circle, they're already brought up with some kind of semblance of, you know I've been listening to what she's saying, yeah in high school I was picking about dating. I told her that's an incredibly healthy, mature, wise thing. [0:19:03]

CLIENT: Meanwhile I didn't even know if girls like me in high school, you know I was just you know. So there's no doubt. It's not just that there were tragedies, it's just all this stuff that happened before. (pause)

THERAPIST: When you feel you just know you were loved for who you are, that loss.

CLIENT: Yeah, when you feel like I could have not a great day with Abby, but it's not gonna cross my mind, to be like oh yeah I don't think I wanna see Abby anymore, you know what I mean? That kind of relationship, like good friendships, right? Where you are like you have friendships where your friends might annoy you, your friend might have some annoying habits. But that's never gonna cross your mind to not be this person's friend. Somehow I haven't been able to translate that to a woman's love and affection. You know romantic. That of course there are gonna be moments where, and that's a two way street. She's gonna annoy me too, you know what I mean? [0:20:13] Like I make it, I always make it sound like I'm the one fucking up and being awkward, and doing something stupid. (pause)

THERAPIST: That you, people in relationships disappointed in each other and annoy each other.

CLIENT: All the time, c'mon you know what I mean? Like what. Yesterday for example I saw her from my window pulling up, but then when I got outside she parked kind of down the street so when I looked at her car, I didn't see her in the car, or I, I don't know what happened, but I felt like I couldn't see her. And then she had out of state plates, and for a second I was like no I think she has local plates right? I got totally discombobulated for a second so I kind of walked back, and was like no wait no that's her. So when I walked back you know, I saw her whatever. In that moment, of course this is happening very quickly, it wasn't like I was dwelling on it, but in that moment that voice like fucking surged, like oh man you're an idiot. [0:21:10] How stupid and embarrassing, you're awkward.

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness.

CLIENT: Yeah I totally handled it.

THERAPIST: Yeah but

CLIENT: But there was a split moment of just like, and I heard me say what, what, I just didn't know it was her for a second. So what? Just unbelievable.

THERAPIST: As though that kind of little thing would be the thing breaks someone loving you.

CLIENT: Or telling someone, you know, you make me a little nervous. As if that, why, how is that bad? You're telling someone how much you dig them, you know? As if in that moment she's like eww. Doesn't make any fucking, a girl that just drove 45 minutes to see you is suddenly gonna be like oh wait this guys really likes me? I give him butterflies, fuck. That's a completely irrational, and that's what I'm saying. [0:22:14] Like that's, that's a bummer, instead of just savoring, I mean I am savoring I am happy about it, but there's this other side to where people that are slightly, who don't have the background I have. Right now they'd just be more focused on hey man it's a fucking beautiful day outside, you know, I've got this awesome new girl I'm dating, like not shabby, you know. And I do, I do feel that. There's a lot more of that now, but for the most part, then I have these moments if I stop to really think about it, you know I realize there's this (pause) [0:23:12]

CLIENT: [inaudible] It's really crazy how you mind can be detached from what's, from the evidence in the real world, you know what I mean? It's crazy, crazy. (pause)

THERAPIST: Does it make you nervous today when I start to talk?

CLIENT: When you start to talk?

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

CLIENT: What? What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well it's a couple times it seems just as I'm starting to say something to you. It almost feels likes you're not sure you want to hear what I have to say. Like what if I say something you don't want to hear, or embarrassing, or [0:24:01]

CLIENT: Not today. Why?

THERAPIST: I don't know.

CLIENT: Now you're making me nervous.

THERAPIST: It felt like that, sort of felt like keeping me at bay.

CLIENT: I mean I think I interrupted you once or twice just because I was (pause) Why what were you going to say?

THERAPIST: Oh nothing, nothing in particular. It's not so much that as, I guess some of what your saying right now makes me think some about if there are ways as a kid one of the things that happened wasn't just being alone but the feeling that you might have reached out with a tremendous amount of feeling and it wasn't returned at some point. You know what I mean? It's not that

CLIENT: Yeah, Yeah it's not the, I know what you're saying, it's not so much that I was alone. I think the hurtful part was that I've always been very open and sensitive, and I've kept putting myself out there, yeah, and from the very start it's not really been reciprocated the way I needed. [0:25:17] That, that's the issue. A lot of kids might be latch key kids or whatever, but then when their parents are home there's a different, you know what I mean? These things happen, but for me it's not so much oh it's awful that I was a latch key kid. It would have been very different if I was a latch key kid and then when my mom was around it was a very different atmosphere. So yeah, no that is a big, big part of it. And it's funny because we kind of talked about that yesterday, and whatever, and I was saying no that was a big realization for me back in 2007 before I went to England right? I reevaluated everything. Friendships, the music scene, you know I was like what the fuck am I doing? Yeah I know all these people, but I kind of act around them. I'm acting too like hey it's really good to see you man, what's going on. Like relax, you know what I mean? [0:26:10]

CLIENT: Like that's nice, but don't be a chump, you know what I mean? These people they're not all your friends, a lot of them are secretly jealous, or a lot of them don't give a shit about you and your band. You know like don't. You gotta be a little bit more self-protective, and I hadn't been for all those years. And I think what ended up happening, especially after Samantha, I think I realized that in a really big way over time. And then that, it was like the other extreme, like I'm like super paranoid that I can't say anything. I can't act vulnerable, I can't you know. I mean I was already kind of like that remember? I was like I hate complaining, I don't wanna be like a complainer.

THERAPIST: For sure.

CLIENT: So it's just like, well what the fuck so I can't do anything. Now it's like I have to be a slab of granite or something. [0:27:03]

THERAPIST: Right it's like self-protective, we talk about this, and kind of get into the minutiae of should you text or not text, that question, and should you be protecting your heart by not texting in case she's not there. That kind of self protection can be defensive, right? Like just in case I don't want to get hurt. It can also have grown from a place of, if you think of the word, self protective. Like when you had adults around you who love you and protect you in all the ways that you need, and want, and desire? That's just in you to know where to be vulnerable with yourself, and where not to be vulnerable with yourself. It's a kind of a, more of a healthier way of knowing the boundaries around yourself. Instead of a retreat to a place that's just only kind of defensive. [0:28:00]

CLIENT: Well it's not just that. The thing with me is that I feel so much embarrassment you know I'm carrying a lot of embarrassment around. Sooo, it's only now that I'm getting that, first of all there's really nothing to be embarrassed about, I mean yeah whatever, you know, but I do. I feel really embarrassed and like you know I look back on a situation, what the, what a fucking chump or how, or what a display of like heart on your sleeve, and that really makes me cringe you know? I finally get though that I haven't acted that way in years now. And also, acted that way, I'm finally starting to dismantle that picture of myself as some blubbery weakling. You know what I mean? That wasn't the case at all you know?

THERAPIST: This is what's so complicated about it, and I think there's moments.

CLIENT: Like I'm trying to overcompensate for some image of myself that wasn't true.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes. [0:29:04]

CLIENT: Yeah I mean I did, I cried. I tried to win Samantha over, but that. What I'm forgetting though is that I, that's called loving someone, and loving the wrong person whose being cold, for whatever reason, I'm not, I'm beyond like it's not that she was crazy, whatever. For whatever reason someone is being cold and weird, and vague, and. So how am I, you know, why should I. You know what I mean? It's all these things about I just feel like the blubbering fool. It's in my songs, it's in my poetry. There's always a fool. The word fool comes up a lot in my writing.

THERAPIST: That's the central problem with how you, is how loving and being a fool, or being a chump that collapse into being one and the same, in your history. I think they're the same. To love someone means you're being a chump. [0:30:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So that yeah because otherwise who the fuck cares about the minutiae of texting? I mean yeah we all do a little bit, but I mean I think that any dude in my situation right now would be like holy shit man. Like you know this broad is into me. You know what I mean? Like they just take it as you know (Laughing) (pause) No it is yeah, it's very complicated. It is very complicated. But I think that is the biggest thing, one of the biggest things, is that I just carry around a lot of, we kind of talked about this yesterday too, not about this, but. You know saying how like Jason that one time really reprimanded me for having that aw shucks attitude. But where does that come from? You know, I mean partly yes I do like, my Dad was a very humble, humble person. But I forget that he was humble in a good way. [0:31:08] Yeah my dad was dude, he just happened to have that rare quality of like just true modesty. Whereas for me, it's not that I'm pretending to be modest, but I think a lot of times when I'm acting super humble or whatever, it kind of is coming from a, it's both, it's coming from a place of I don't like to make a big deal out of things to much, but I think it's partly also that I'm embarrassed. You know?

THERAPIST: To be loved.

CLIENT: To be loved. For someone to say dude you're a really good songwriter.

THERAPIST: As another way of loving a part of you.

CLIENT: Exactly right.

THERAPIST: To be admired, so that even good things, even good things getting seen feels embarrassing. It's nothing wrong with being seen. Just as like something a part of you that feels like a negative thing or something. You were so unseen as a kid, that to be seen in anyway now feels embarrassing. It feels like being exposed, even for a talent. [0:32:08]

CLIENT: Yup. Yup. (35 second pause) And I think what's really hard too is. I don't know if it's the right way to artic--, it just popped into my mind, I haven't thought about this before, but. I think what ends up happening, is like the few times when I really care about someone like this. It's as if I want to, there's something wells up in me. [0:33:13] Do you know what I mean? Like yesterday I almost that when we were sitting. I took her to a nice cafe. I was like you know it was kind of cool I used to come here when I was 15, it was to tell her, you know. It was fun for me I haven't been there in a long time, I don't go there much anymore. I had like one or two moments where I was just looking at her, and just listening to, and if I let myself I could have become emotional. You know what I mean? Even now thinking about it, it makes me a little bit like something wells up, you know what I mean? It's just like wow this person is really here, and nice, and seems to be a caring, I don't know. There's something it makes me nervous, it makes me kind of I don't know. Just something wells up. [0:34:14}

CLIENT: It's like it's, and I think it's

THERAPIST: So much just emotion.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I think a lot of it is love. I think you know, like when you're someone who's sensitive and has a lot to give, but it keeps being douche bags or people that intentionally or unintentionally bring you up in a fucked up way or whatever. So when there's this person that seems to kind of deserve it? They're, it's like wow. I think that yeah. (pause) In that way I think I am very healthy, you know? Because I don't just go there, you know what I mean? I check, I check that. But it's definitely there. [0:35:07] (pause)

THERAPIST: It's really new. What to feel that kind of love. What to feel like just to feel like maybe there's something in your life that's kind of stable and there for you, and maybe isn't the kind of relationship where it's kind of something could happen and it's over instantaneously.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah there's something very real about her. You know what I mean? Like you know when I look at her, like yesterday I was looking at her, I was like this is crazy. I'm not idealizing her. She's is beautiful, but I'm not, I see the flaws, I see the flaws already. Like I know where I could have gone like two years ago. She's a little bit overweight, or whatever. But I don't. But yeah that's what's so crazy this time, is that I'm like I don't give a shit I really like this person. [0:36:17] And yeah it does have this sense of like there's something stable here, or something. You know somebody that just texts you and just comes up to have a coffee. Like what? (pause) And who's is expressive, like Saturday morning it had snowed. So when we went out to her car, I took out a thing I cleaned her car, while she was. When I got in the car she was like that's so sweet you cleaned my car. And it's like that means a lot to me, you know what I mean? Like those for someone she acknowledges certain things that are really important to me at least you know? [0:37:07] (pause)

THERAPIST: She sees you, just to see something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And for the first time seeing you doesn't feel only embarrassing.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like maybe that could feel good too.

CLIENT: Yeah I think that's yeah right, that's the I think I'm unnerving myself. You know, a lot of it is not her at all, it's just. Just when we're walking, I'm just very aware of how normal and nice, and even my own behavior. I think I'm very aware of like wow, like I don't feel anxious, like right? Like the word anxious or anxiety hasn't even crossed my fucking mind, right? In the past I would have been like I'm driving to you, we're gonna go to a club to see something. You know what I mean? I could have already been bracing myself for some anxiety attack or something. [0:38:12]

CLIENT: It was awesome, not even a thought. When I met her friend, I wasn't trying to win her over. I think I'm more and more aware of that wow I think I'm just being me. You know so, yeah. I think that there's just so much that's new (Laughing) I think I'm just like what the fuck is happening? (pause)

THERAPIST: Even here. That's what's been happening too for me I think so many parts of yourself, and probably still some more to go but that you would secretly imagine would be somehow, something, a deal breaker or something terrible about you will finally get revealed. To just be more and more open here, when have it be that it doesn't really change anything is enough.

CLIENT: Right. [0:39:14]

(30 second pause)

THERAPIST: We get to know more and more about the kind of love you felt as a kid, that sounds like it really felt more conditional.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You could be fine in that book, or maybe just in your mom's looking out for time, and your Dad too, but to a point and then if you are this or are that or say this or hear this way, and you're not as loved as. [0:40:16] By your own mother.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: As opposed to just knowing you are absolutely your own person with your own foibles, and quirks, and likes and dislikes, and she loves that whole person.

CLIENT: Yeah no it is crazy, it is crazy. I mean you're talking about somebody that like you know didn't understand why I had acne.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Embarrassed the shit out of me. Made me the topic of discussion.

THERAPIST: WHAT?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do they not understand acne?

CLIENT: Yeah, my mom was what is this? We didn't have this when we were yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness. [0:41:04]

CLIENT: I told you this, yeah. And to the point where my uncle got me a gift certificate to umm what's that place on something Taylor? It's like a woman's, Elizabeth Taylor. He got me a gift certificate to that, and my mom took me. In fucking high school. I'll never forget that. That was wow, that one probably did some fucking damage. Yeah and there was like pretty women there, and they're like I gotta work on this high school boy? It was a fucking travesty. But yeah that's what we're talking about.

THERAPIST: So she would talk about it with your Uncle, with other adults?

CLIENT: Yeah, it would just be a topic.

THERAPIST: In front of you?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Yeah yeah.

THERAPIST: And also specifically saying we didn't have that?

CLIENT: Yeah they have all these things about how, what is gays? What is this gay? There were no gays when we were. Like somehow all these things that exist in the world, didn't exist. Alzheimer's? What is this dementia? How did she get dementia? People didn't have dementia back in Assyria. [0:42:16]

CLIENT: Like somehow back in Assyria people didn't have things. I mean when I pushed them on it then they'll be like yeah well it's true they just lock them up in the house, or yeah actually there were those two guys they were probably gay. You know like. But there's just I think they're just, they're so conformist, they're so scared of anything. Because they're just so insecure. You know that they just want to blend in and be like everybody else. And they don't want any, like I'm assuming I don't know what the fuck their neuroses are, but that's a whole fucking decade of unraveling. Yeah like acne they don't understand. Like yeah you name it they don't get it.

THERAPIST: There's also a way as you described in these examples, it's like, unconsciously the outsider gets both idealized you know the [inaudible] of the American, but also derided. [0:43:16]

CLIENT: Right, of course.

THERAPIST: Here they have Alzheimer's, they have acne, they have gay people.

CLIENT: Of course, of course, yeah yeah yeah.

THERAPIST: And so to the decree that you start being associated with the absent culture because you're here and you're the kid. It's like all that bad stuff gets put located in you, they have none of that. You have that. Things that everybody has and grows up with.

CLIENT: Right, right, right. No, no it's completely, it's lunacy, or even the ones they do idealize, Elizabeth Taylor (Whispering) Such a [inaudible] Oh Elizabeth Taylor was kind of a whore, I mean you know, not a whore but you know, she was a loose woman. She was just a woman who enjoyed life and men, and. She had drug problems, alcohol problems, so what remind me, what is the? Just that she is a pretty woman? I guess. You know what I mean? [0:44:08]

CLIENT: Like it's just this bizarre, warped you know?

THERAPIST: And sometimes you became the container for the bad stuff in their minds you know?

CLIENT: I guess. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean what a horrible thing to say to a kid. I never had that. I mean it's not only how hard it is for adolescents anyway facing

CLIENT: No there was none of that. There was none of that.

THERAPIST: But it's not oh I remember when this happened to me too, this is what I did. Kind of joining into a community of people, I'm like this, I'm like this too with you. It's what's wrong with you? Is the reaction. It's humiliating.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Yup. And the way I dressed, oh yeah. Why are wearing that shirt? I mean I guess you know I've never given myself credit but the more I think about it, I would fight back, you know, but. That's in some ways it's neither here nor there. [0:45:15]

CLIENT: I mean you're fighting back, but you're still being damaged. I mean because I was a smart kid. You know and I thought what the fuck are you talking? You know I'd like, and I used to have a bit more of a temper so I'd let them have it sometimes. But that wouldn't really help the situation.

THERAPIST: You didn't fold and comply.

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: But you are aware of that even

CLIENT: But what ended up happening is I embraced this outsider, I'm a freak kind of thing so fuck you.

THERAPIST: Which isn't true.

CLIENT: Exactly. So I'd shave my head or I'd do weird things, or I'd write on my shirts, or I'd you know. And that's you know I'm kind of proud of that, but yeah I'm, that's exactly what happened. I created this image of myself that had nothing to do with anything. [0:46:06] (pause)

THERAPIST: Thursday, and this Friday. Normal schedule, it's just not till the 14th.

CLIENT: So Thursday at 12:50?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Thanks, see ya.

END TRANSCRIPT