TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: [00:00:10] So, nice office.

THERAPIST: Thanks. Why are you smiling?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Why are you smiling?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I always think there's something.

CLIENT: Uh, well, yeah. I mean, I was thinking about, like, yesterday. At first, it was cool because when I left her I felt better, so it was nice. And then I went home. My uncle was over, so I went downstairs to see him and we hung out and stuff. And it was just ironic because I got home, I got an estimate for the...we have a really bad leak that we've been trying to fix for years. And it's just driving us crazy...well, mostly my mom. It's over her dining room floor...the roof...whatever. So I took care of that. Then I called a guy about refinancing the house to a lower rate. [00:01:08] So it was just funny because I was thinking. I'm like, "Well, you know, I'm so aggravated or whatever." But, you know, I've been taking care of stuff in a way that I haven't been before. So that, and the thing was, I could have gotten more aggravated because, like, the refinancing can be done, but it's not going to be easy because it's, like, under my mom's name and she's retired. So she doesn't have as much income. Her credit's not as good anymore because she's retired and she's kind of extended. You know? Like, that affects your credit score if you're...you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know.

CLIENT: So I could have gotten aggravated by that, you know? But then I was like, "Well, whatever." I mean, so if we don't refinance, we'll still have the mortgage we have. [00:02:00] You know what I mean? Like, there was that. And then with the roof, you know, right now we don't have the money to fix the roof, but you know, I was like, "Whatever." We got an estimate and we can figure it out. You know? So (pause) I don't know. So that got me thinking in general and then I was, like, you know, I wonder if this little "blah" thing I've been feeling, maybe it's because it's, like, a reckoning. You know, it's, like, this is my life. You know? So maybe it's just, like, (pause) you know? It's, like, not really depression but it's, like, just, like, this, you know, if you've been in fantasy land your whole life, then you're, like, oh, even when things go well, it's not some song and dance. Like, it's not some...you know what I mean? But it's just is what it is. You know what I mean? It's (pause)...

THERAPIST: [00:03:02] Yeah, I think that's what I was hearing a little bit in your dream. Like, the movement from the NBA star and checks in the mail of $99,000 to, like, your actual life. And yet, you added that it was beautiful at the same time. That you're driving around...

CLIENT: Yeah, that's the thing. That, yeah, that...

THERAPIST: It wasn't just depressing.

CLIENT: No, that's the thing. It's not depressing. I mean, yeah, I did all that stuff yesterday. Then I went and I worked with Dave on the record. Finished and went out and had a beer. Like, there's nothing to be depressed about. I think it's just, like, a landing, you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, "Oh, it's not a hit." Not that head in the clouds kind of stuff, you know? (pause) [00:04:04] And also just I try to get, you know...like, I was talking to Dave and, you know, he's trying to kind of get a small business off the ground. He doesn't have any fucking money, you know? Like, his mom is struggling with cancer, you know, like, I don't know. I just...I think what it is, is that I'm...I think I don't know what to do. It just goes back to that feeling of (pause) I just feel weird that things are kind of just going pretty well or do it whatever, you know? That doesn't take away from that. I mean, all that aggravation stuff, I think that is definitely some old thing. But I guess what I'm saying, though, is that it's a huge change to just have a moment of that or whatever. But then, you know, the rest of the day was perfectly fine. [00:05:02] You know what I mean? Like I wasn't... (pause) There was no real, like, dwelling or, like, it didn't spiral out of control or whatever, you know? It was just, you know, it's, like, I handled it. You know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: It's such a huge change, [Brian] (ph). What you are thinking about and bearing, even if there's a lot of intense feeling, like yesterday...aggravation. It doesn't translate into getting shut down. You actually can remain thinking with curiosity in your mind and you still go about your life. It's not really affecting your functioning. It, I mean, there's been a lot of change.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I've stopped beating myself up. Because I'm like...this whole week I've kind of done, you know, I've been sleeping a lot. Or even if I haven't been sleeping a lot, I've been staying in bed a lot. [00:06:04] But I don't know, I don't feel bad about it. I mean, if I had to be somewhere at whatever time, I'd be there. You know what I mean? I don't. Whatever, you know? Like, you know, or, like, actually, this morning, kind of diagonally across the street, there's been a gas station that's been closed for a while. So at fucking 7:00 this morning, there's some noise and drilling. I think they're trying to check to see if there's any pollution or leakage underneath, you know? I don't know, it didn't really bother me. You know? Because it was fucking loud. You know? It was kind of cool, I was like, "Well, you know, they're just doing what they need to do and it'll be done at some point."

THERAPIST: That's such a shift from yesterday, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Dramatically.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: [00:07:02] I wonder what...does something come to mind in what changed that?

CLIENT: I think maybe when I was here, I just got things out of my system, maybe, that made me just more aware, you know? I mean, I was already...when I came in, I was already aware, right, that I was, like, and this definitely has nothing to do with Dunkin Donuts or whatever. So maybe, yeah, when I left I just felt I just got it out of my system, I guess. I just, you know, got more perspective and...I don't know. I don't know what happened. Or maybe when I went home and I just saw my uncle, my family, it just kind of distracted me or something maybe from not...well, actually, yeah, so I got home and then the guy came for the estimate. So it was almost immediate. So I think I just kind of, you know... He was a super, super nice guy...a really nice guy. He was a poet. He recited poetry. Yeah, he was a really quirky dude. And I could tell he was a master, like, he knows what the fuck he's doing. [00:08:00] (pause) Yeah, he was a very sweet, old dude. Like, he has a little trouble hearing, and you can tell he's, like, like, a true craftsman kind of guy. And he was telling jokes, he recited poems that he'd written to his wife. Really quirky guy, yeah. So then I just got caught up in just what was happening, you know? (pause) And I just forgot about it. (pause)

THERAPIST: There's also somehow an image of this quirky guy just being himself...who's a poet. That feels really positive.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You don't look at him and see the outsider who's, you know, look at this schlep...what he has to do for a living or something?

CLIENT: Oh, not at all. No, not at all.

THERAPIST: It's such a...when you think about different parts of yourself and how you can experience sort of seeing parts of you in one way or another in that kind of thing here. [00:09:09] It's a more benign and positive...

CLIENT: Yeah, no, it was more like the kind of thing where I like people like that. His poems were awful. They were fucking awful. But I just love that he was so genuine and, like, open and giving. He was, like, you know, that's...he was telling my mom, he was, like, "That's your mom? She's a beautiful lady." He was very charming and, like, quirky. You know? A very sweet guy. And (pause) no, it's more I admire him. I admire people like that who, you know, he took over...said they've been in business since, like, for 95 years or something. So I like that tradition and, you know, I like that he's a business guy but he's (pause) you know, the way business people should be. You know, kind of more light-hearted and kind of well-rounded. I don't know. Whatever. But a very, really nice guy. [00:10:05] And also, it was cool because I didn't feel embarrassed. It was kind of cool in a way, because I was like, you know, I'm a poet. And it was cool because my uncle was there, my mom was there and at that point, they kind of, like, disappeared from the scene. You know what I mean? Like, they were there, but they don't know. Like, it was kind of...I don't know how to explain it. But (pause) I, like, they don't get to see me in that, you know, like I am a poet. You know what I mean? Like, and to see someone who was, like, "Oh, wow, really?" You know, to see this, like, businessman, you know, and he was totally, like, "Really?" He's, like, "How did you get published? What publisher?" You know? So that kind of felt good, you know? Because I'd never...that's never on their radar. You know? [00:11:00]

THERAPIST: Almost like they get to see you just being yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Who you are right now in life.

CLIENT: Yep, yep. And...but I think what felt even better was...and I'm not just saying this to you now, but in the moment, I didn't care. Like, I wasn't, like, "Oh, this is my chance so they can see I'm a real poet." You know? I just talked to the guy.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: You know? I didn't give a shit. You know? I walked him out, he recited another poem for me. And, you know... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Very creative.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Very creative.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I just think that's the hard part about all this, is that all those things (pause) yeah, there's...because I guess there's been so much sadness, it's weird. You know what I mean? Like, (pause) I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. [00:12:00] (Pause) It's like today, I was texting Kelly. I just wanted to hang out tonight. And I was, like, "Hey, you know, I hope you're having a good Friday. I'm looking forward to seeing you or whatever." And, like, she wrote back. It was so, like, genuine. Like, all she wrote was, "Me, too...a lot." And that's just, like, that's so real. You know what I mean? Like, it's not...I don't know. Like, it's just very, I've never really had something like that that's so (pause)...well, I shouldn't say that. I guess I have had it, but where it's so, like, I feel just as strongly, you know? [00:13:00] (pause) And I think, you know, maybe it's that, like, I guess I still...there's some deep thing about, like, things don't last or, you know, (pause) that somehow things will get fucked up maybe or...I don't know. Yeah, there's something just melancholy. I can't explain it. [00:14:08] (pause)

THERAPIST: It's anxiety from your childhood that they don't last.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or that I still feel nervous. Like, one little wrong...if I make one tiny little misstep, that, you know, people will change their minds or things will completely, you know... (pause)

THERAPIST: I'm just wondering what it was like to see me yesterday. You know, you were aggravated sitting out there. Do I know it's 53 after or 50 after. You know? Coming here, being irritated, and telling me you are. [00:15:01] You think that's happening here. That's new. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, but I figured I wasn't going to be, but I was like, you know, but I've never done that. So it was like, it's probably healthier to just be honest, you know, it's not a big deal but it's just good to.

THERAPIST: And so what did you feel like after having said that?

CLIENT: I mean, after I left?

THERAPIST: Yeah, or even here.

CLIENT: It was, like, I didn't think about it. I didn't think about it. Because, like I said, I knew that that's really not what I'm aggravated about. I mean, Jesus, three minutes? Five, whatever? That's...I just knew that that was just one more thing that's triggering this crazy, you know, irrational kind of...

THERAPIST: Although, it might also be a (inaudible at 00:16:01). In the moment, it is what you're aggravated about. You know? It might...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: It might be connected to some earlier, bigger, deeper trauma, but how understandable for you to have some feeling about my running a few minutes late.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know what I mean? Like...and it feels like you were very real about it. That isn't...

CLIENT: Yeah, well, it's a compliment to you, right? Like, I might want to be here as many minutes as I can be, right? So, yeah. I mean, (pause) yeah. I mean, when you're looking forward, you know, to something, then you want to... (pause)

THERAPIST: You just want to be here.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, for the record, this is on the side. [00:17:00] But you know, if I'm running a few minutes late, I will always go over.

CLIENT: I totally know.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I totally know. You don't have to...I know.

THERAPIST: So, but even still, you're going to be a feeling of you're here, you're ready.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, or maybe, you know, it's subconsciously...maybe because I've been so good about being on time. Like, even today, I was, like, "Fuck me, I'm five minutes late." You know what I mean? Like, because I've been...that's been a really good feeling, like, "Jesus, wow. I guess I'll take a walk around the block and, like, hey, just check my e-mail or whatever." So...(pause) yeah. But, yeah. No, like I said, it's not all those things are, you know, I go to the same Dunkin Donuts every day. You know? I know the people. They're nice people. They're not, like, conspiring to be slow or to take their break right when I get there. You know what I mean? Like, all that stuff is just, you know, [00:18:00] it's when you're taking things too personally. Almost in a narcissistic way. You know? Like, as if the minute you walk out the door, everything's, like, just your own movie set. You know what I mean? Like, you're the star and people are just extras. You know, like, I don't...it's not a good way to be.

THERAPIST: Did you have a mind that I would know you'd have feelings about being aggravated?

CLIENT: To have in mind that you would know that I was aggravated?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: No. What do you mean? I don't follow.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm wondering do you imagine that I knew that...a piece of what you'd be feeling about it?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Like, I had no idea.

CLIENT: No. I was worried, when I came and said, "No, I don't hide things well." That was weird. I'm, like, "Man, I'm going to seem aggravated." You know? Because I didn't...I know when it's a day like that, it's sometimes hard for me to [00:19:01], you know...unless I've had time to kind of...you know what I mean? But, you know, because things had just happened, so I was, like, "Oh, fuck." And it seemed like, you know... That was the only thing I was thinking. So I thought I might seem, like, a little, I don't know, grumpy or something. You know?

THERAPIST: See, I actually knew before you came in that you'd have feelings about it.

CLIENT: What? That's spooky. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I think the week before, it had come up on that particular...it was Thursday. When I had, like, sort of back-to-back sessions. So know when you...I knew that ending right at 50 in the preceding session, I actually waited a minute or two to open the door and give you that space. I think last week it felt really abrupt to you. But...

CLIENT: Oh, I didn't think about that.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm hearing that. Because [00:20:01] I think one of the things that happens for you when you...there's a kind of frustration of the system. Like, frustrations of the relationship system of your childhood. I don't think you had, inside you, the experience that...when your mom couldn't be there for some reason, or when she didn't get something in your art or your poetry or your music, that she really was still trying to think about you and wanted to. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: It is just...she's just not there. And you go back and when that experience gets repeated, because it was repeated. It's not that that...it's not that it didn't happen or that you're making it up. I was running a few minutes late. That really happened.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: So when little traumas like that happen, I think it feels even more traumatic because you were left with the feeling of being totally alone [00:21:00] in your fantasy.

CLIENT: Right, and that may be...

THERAPIST: That no one cares.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, and somehow being, like, secondary to something else. You know? Either this other patient or...you know, like, remember, like, I was...I don't know if it was...I'm sure we might have...remember, like, for a while I was kind of, like, really frustrated with Dave? How he couldn't fit, you know...that was much of the same feeling. I was feeling like he's doing other things. He's clearly not making me a priority. You know? Somehow thinking that it was really personal. You know? And, but like you said, of course it was real. I mean, he's just a non-committal kind of...he does that. But he doesn't sit around saying, "How can I do that to Brian?" You know? He just does that. That's what he does. You know? He does it to a lot...I mean, other people that know Dave talk to me about how Dave...they ask me. You know what I mean? Like, I see him, even in his...even though he's that way with me, he's way worse with other people who, you know...[00:22:00] But, yeah, you're right. I think these things that happen are real things that happen that my reaction to them is not about those things. It's about...yeah, just feeling like I'm being kind of brushed aside or something. Yeah. That I'm being...it's a kind of belittling feeling.

THERAPIST: Yes. That you're not that important.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is so different than you as a kid, knowing, for example...this is just a story, but...when Mommy goes to work, she has to work, and maybe probably wants to, but she really, really misses me, too.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That doesn't feel like that's a part of this story. That you know...you knew she had you in mind.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Even when she couldn't be there for whatever reason.

CLIENT: Huh, I just had, like, a major fucking thought. [00:23:00] I think my mom is my grandfather. You know? As much as he was tough on her and they would, you know, she kind of...not that she complains, but she, you know, she kind of does. And that's all real. I mean, he really was. But I think that that's...she was that way with me in a different way. You know? In a feminine version. You know? So it was loving and smothering, but not thoughtful and treating me like a person. You know what I mean? Just like she wasn't treated like a person, you know?

THERAPIST: Has she been able to describe it about her own father?

CLIENT: Well, yeah. Just this sense of, like, you know, she's told me stories about it. Which really is amazing. I mean, she's told me stories about how he would dictate letters and make her write letters to, like, you know, they called it the HQ. Like basically, like, the Communist headquarter there. [00:24:00] And, like, there had been times...she would go and deliver the letter. So you know, like, a 16-year-old girl, a very pretty 16-year-old girl going to these, you know, like the Soviet-era, very intimidating buildings, you know? Things like that. Or, yeah, that, I mean, just he was very tough with her. She was the oldest, you know? So he was tough with all of them, especially all the girls. Like, just, you know, they weren't really equal. Like, he just always thought of them as kind of second-class. But because my mom was the oldest, there was a special kind of, you know...so, yeah, she's told me things like that. I mean, now they talk about it kind of more openly, that, you know, he was a touch man and he wasn't...(pause) like, he was good-hearted, but not necessarily a good father and so, like, you know...and yeah, I mean, I think that she was maybe just, you know, like [00:25:04]...what's that?

THERAPIST: Like that with you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure kind of unintentional. But it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter. Yeah, there was something kind of callous about her. Yeah. Which is too bad, because if she'd been more like my grandmother, I think shit would have been different. But none of them were like my grandma. (pause)

THERAPIST: And you said, what, oh, callous.

CLIENT: Well, just that, like, you know, just that, like, kind of, like, you know, like, "I love you, but you know, you're going to be an engineer." You know? "And I'm going to do everything I can to put you in school." You know, that...there's the functional kind of...but callous in a sense that, like, "I love you, but I don't think of you as a separate person who is going to grow up to...who knows?" You know, like, that the future is open to you and [00:26:03], you know, I'm going to get to know you and your personality. You know what I mean? Like, so...(pause) you know, so...because otherwise it's just like a...first of all, it's conditional. You know? But second of all, it's all about, like, conformity. You know? I'm going to love you, blah-blah-blah, but you can't, you know, you've got to be like all the other Armenian people's sons and you know, like, it's all about kind of blending in and (pause)...

THERAPIST: I love you, but here's the script of who you're going to be.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Because this is who I need you to be.

CLIENT: Right. Right. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's another level of just being left so alone with your actual self. [00:27:00] No one knew it. And I think that's what it might have felt like in a really small subtle way, sitting out there waiting. Like, that "I'm alone, it doesn't really matter. I don't really matter. No one knows how this feels to me." (pause) [00:28:00]

CLIENT: I think that's why, overall, it also feels better. Like, I'm being better at just kind of being. You know what I mean? So it's, you know, I like that. So even, like, like, this week...but you know, like, I don't feel that great. You know what I mean? But I don't...like, I kind of don't care that I don't feel that great. In a good way. You know, I'm just, like, "Whatever." You know? Whereas I think, you know, before I (pause) I'd be introspective in a negative way. You know what I mean? Like, with the light on, I feel great. Everybody else seems like they feel good. What...I don't feel that anymore. I'm, like, "You know what? Most people are feeling shitty." [00:29:01] (laugh) It's not, you know, I'm doing much better than I think I'm doing. You know? (pause) Because I think that's one thing I'm realizing. That even, like, coming here, one thing I think, like, there does have to be a place where you're kind of, like...(pause) I don't want to say, like, "suck it up," or whatever. But I think there is something kind of healthy and something about just, you know, like, it just is what it is. You know what I mean? And you can't, you know...as useful as, like, this or, like, whatever other kinds of things are, it's also important to be, like, "Well..." I mean, you can't take things back or you can't undo things or you can't rewrite what happened or...you know. [00:30:06] And I think I didn't have that before. Like, I couldn't let things go or I couldn't, you know, or I just couldn't be content while also knowing that shitty stuff happened. You know what I mean? And I think that's important. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, that's what you were fed, is that shitty feelings don't happen to other people, or especially beautiful people.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: As though there is a place where a possibility there is a kind of perfection of experience.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: That was their fantasy.

CLIENT: Right. (Pause) Yes, so what would happen is in the past, I'd intend to be stoic, and I was pretty good at it. You know what I mean? But now I feel like I'm genuine [00:31:01], you know, just (pause)...you know, some days are better than others. Whatever. And just, you know (pause)...

THERAPIST: I ran into a really cheesy quote a couple hours ago that said something like, "Serenity is not the absence of turmoil, but the capacity to find peace and calm amidst turmoil."

CLIENT: Yeah, right, exactly.

THERAPIST: I think that's what you're talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's totally true. (pause) And it's kind of the same thing as, like, you know, "Wherever you go, there you are." I mean, you can go to London, you can move to California, you can move wherever the fuck you want. But, you know, that's... (pause) [00:32:01] I just think the next, you know, (pause) you know, I think the elephant in the room was still, like, (pause) you know, that I'm...I still am somehow unable to be more (pause) I guess productive. But, you know, I'm still kind of...there's something, you know, that keeps me from (pause)...

THERAPIST: It keeps you sleeping while trying to drive.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, like, I'm better...like, I'm not beating myself up for staying at home or staying in bed, but that, you know, it does make me kind of restless and kind of (pause)...and even, I confuse myself. [00:33:01] Basically, I'm like, I don't understand what, like, why am I not savoring this time? And, like, how great I can do whatever the fuck I want? So why am I not excited to go, "Okay, I'm going to sit down and record a song?" Or "Hey, I'm going to go somewhere and write or read or..." Like, why am I not...you know what I mean? Part of that, I know, is that more...it's very common. It's, like, a lot of people get that. If they just have time on their hands, they don't...not doing, you know...but that I know that that's not me. Because when I have worked 9 to 5, I don't come home and write songs. That's not, like, that's not me. Like, I do have stuff I really do want to do, but for some reason I just...I don't know what that's about. [00:34:00] (pause) [00:35:15] I wonder if, like, it has something, like, maybe, like, every single time I try to...or I think about, like, writing or I will sit down and write a song or whatever...record, maybe the problem is that each one of those times, whether I actually do it or I even think about doing it, maybe it's that there's something very immediate, some other part of me, that immediately can't take that seriously. You know what I mean? That there's a part of me so deep that it's not even, like, the voice. It's not, like, there's not a voice. It's just something automatic. Something, like, that just says, "No, but you're, you know, you're not really a good writer or it's kind of too late or, you know, you're not going to be a rock star, come on." [00:36:08] Like, I wonder if that's what it is? You know? Like, I literally can't take myself seriously enough. Like, no, this is what I do. I'm a writer. So I sit down. You know what I mean? I never thought about that, but I can't think of what else it could possibly be. You know? It's as if it's, like, been beaten out of me or something, you know? It's, like, I've lost touch with that, like, not even thinking about it. Like, I would just sit down and it was just fun, like, I, you know, on a typewriter no less.

THERAPIST: (laugh)

CLIENT: And it's, like, now I just...I think there must be something really deep that immediately just (pause)...I don't know. [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: [00:37:34] If you were without mirrors...live people mirrors seeing you and reflecting back to you. This is you. You're good at this. I see you. I see what you're good at. I'm proud of what you're good at. This is what you're showing. That you're recognized. [00:38:00] That it doesn't quite feel real.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And the irony, of course, is when I was, like, 17 or 16, I was writing articles in the newspaper I later became editor of. Right? For that year or two. Oh, no, I really didn't know until later, but, like, 2000 or 1999 or whatever. But, yeah, when I was...yeah, I'd write articles for them, essays. My first poems were in that newspaper. You know? It's just, like, what? Like, sitting there on a fucking typewriter, no TV, no computer, no nothing. You know? I'd sit down, I'd get, like, a Coke and I'd put a lemon in it. I don't know why. With ice. I'd have some, like, nuts or some shit. And, you know, it's like, I don't know whether it's...but yeah, you're right. That's the problem. It's, like, that's the age where you need...I mean, the newspaper was mirroring me. That's great. [00:39:00] But you need people that are, you know, in your family or your parents or your whatever to push you. You know? Otherwise it's (pause)... But I don't know, there are a lot of people that don't have that that still get their work out there. I don't know. I don't...maybe at some point...they had it when they were kids or something, and I don't know. I don't know. But...

THERAPIST: It's good to know what their experiences are and everything.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: There's so many ways that you've been without mirrors. [00:40:02] And even just thinking of just culturally. There's an (inaudible at 00:40:07) experience of being a child and the regrets that if, you know, is that worth a case where someone else...that they could find mirrors in peers?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Kind of like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's very true, yeah. It's, you know, it's easy to pick up and move to New York City where...because it's your country. Like, truly your country. There's no feeling of, like, "Oh, I don't know Tricia. What's Tricia's background?" Okay, wouldn't even be a thought. It's, like, you know, but yeah, when you're...when you're brought up in that bubble of us versus them, those things are off the table. To, like, go and just be a part of this, you know, reach out to people or just be part of society. You know? Yeah.

THERAPIST: To go find other mirrors, go find a family in New York City. It makes it ever more complicated, almost impossible. [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: With what you were leaving behind. Or at least was impossible. And being an only child without a sibling, at least where they can share their own mirror...their experiences of what's going on in the family some? Kind of have that between each other...you didn't have that. (pause) [00:42:00] So Monday?

CLIENT: That's three times. Like, 7? Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Monday at 10:00.

CLIENT: Monday at 10:00, that's right, that's right. See you.

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