TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I had to park a little far away. Ah, man. Lately it's a little crowded around here. I usually get really lucky with parking, bastards.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at [00:00:14]) the holidays.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know that's what they say. (Pause) So, (Pause) yesterday I had a good practice. Our drummer didn't come and practice because he's sick. At first I did that thing where I'm like; Oh, that's yeah, that's better. I don't want to You know what I mean? But then we did. I was like; you know what? Let's just the three of us We can work on parts and it was great. [00:00:59] Worked on a I had this song that I hadn't played for them, whatever, and we the three of us did it and it came out really nice, and worked on some harmonies and more specific kind of (Pause)

THERAPIST: Ranging

CLIENT: Yeah, ranging, right because it's not as loud. So it was nice. I'm glad. That was good. (Pause) But I noticed, maybe it is because of the holidays, but I noticed that I'm drinking a lot more. There's always something. I don't drink at home. So, and I was like, maybe that's what I've been sleeping a little more wacky too. Alcohol just throws you off. We had the holiday party two nights ago.

THERAPIST: Who, your company?

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) We had Sam Adams and their beer is just fucking awful. [00:02:03] But it was a lot of drinking. Yeah, I've just been hanging out more with friends and stuff. I don't know. So, yeah, it's the holidays. It's hard not to.

THERAPIST: What does more actually mean to you?

CLIENT: Like almost every night.

THERAPIST: How much?

CLIENT: Well, I can drink. Well actually no, I shouldn't say that. Last night, actually no What am I saying? Last night, the guys were drinking at practice, and I didn't. I had the medium coffee with me, and then I had two after. So that's not But at the holiday party, it was shitty beer, and probably had at least six. Normally, I mean, I can put back the drinks. If there's a nice cold beer I like light beer. If there's something cold, and not disgusting, then I can put them back. [00:03:06] But that's the thing though. Lately I'm finding out whatever, I'm betting older-But lately, I'm finding that even when I don't have six. (Laughing) If I have two or three, then depending on how I feel, then it's just kind of like, yeah. Not really -

THERAPIST: What? Like, how you feel the next day?

CLIENT: Yeah, like I'm just not enjoying Like it's just not going down as easy. (Pause) So, -

THERAPIST: And six is unusual that night (ph)?

CLIENT: No. Oh, recently? Yeah, I don't think I've had quite that many. Even when I go out lately, I don't think I have six. I think now it's like four. Is it?

THERAPIST: Four or five?

CLIENT: Yeah, four or five. It depends on where I am and what I'm drinking. [00:04:07] If I'm somewhere where I'm comfortable, it's like a place I hang out, so I For example, there's a bar in the Square. I just know they have really cold beer cans and I love that. I don't know why. It's one of my favorites. It's just like soda pop. They're ice cold, and they're you know. So I just get more you know, it's that environment and so, I can put them back. But otherwise, I probably don't probably not six, like four maybe.

THERAPIST: Every night that amount?

CLIENT: No, no, no, it used to be. In the past, yeah definitely, I'd be out and I'd be drinking No, what's happening now is (Pause) it's probably like two or three times a week, yeah and then, other times if I'm out maybe one or two. [00:05:03] But it's only lately I realize; whoa, it's been pretty much every night for like the last week or two. Because Dave and I if we work in the studio, we'll have maybe two while we're working. So (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's a change from earlier in the semester-some? You're saying.

CLIENT: Yeah, one semester (ph)? (Laughing) yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't been and the other thing is all my friends drink, and they can all put them back the way I We're all similar that way, so it's But, I've not been going out as much. Yeah, so It'd be like maybe once, or twice and then maybe if I hang out with my friends Donnie and Lila at their house, maybe once a week or whatever, or every other week, then we could put it back. [00:06:10]

THERAPIST: Which can make it hard if you're a part of you is thinking I don't want to do that all the time, if everyone you know is doing it.

CLIENT: Can make it hard why?

THERAPIST: Hard not to.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, no. For me, it's impossible. I'm just not Well, and the thing is I enjoy it. Once I'm in the spirit of things, I enjoy it. But yeah, I just Just because lately, I've just been thinking about more like what am I eating and sleeping and So, it can't be helping that -

THERAPIST: Even one drink can affect people's sleeping. It literally reduces the amount of (Overlapping Voices) certain (inaudible at [00:06:10])

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah, plus there's someone like me where if I'm out and drinking, I usually don't drink water. And then the next day, I think to drink water, but I probably don't drink enough at all. [00:07:07] So it's like that -

THERAPIST: But even that night, you won't come home and drink.

CLIENT: No, that night, I will come home and have some water, but it's probably not enough. I'll just have a bottle, and I'll be sipping from it, but yeah, yeah. And then usually what will happen is, I'll either wake up at night, or really early in the morning, and then just chug now because I'm feeling crappy. So, yeah, anyway. (Pause)

THERAPIST: How much would your dad drink? You always refer to (Overlapping Voices) (inaudible at [00:07:47])

CLIENT: Not much. (yawning)

THERAPIST: Just cigarettes.

CLIENT: Yeah, cigarettes and coffee. And even when he did, he didn't really I mean, he'd have whisky or but it'd be like one. I don't know. It's not really -

THERAPIST: Wasn't an issue. [00:08:05]

CLIENT: No, no, no never.

THERAPIST: And in your family, you haven't -

CLIENT: Never.

THERAPIST: Alcoholism and then -

CLIENT: No. No, no, no. (Pause) No, I mean, I haven't and that's the thing, I don't I don't drink at home. I don't crave it. I mean, I do like anybody else once in a while might like a nice cold beer. But, it's not often. Normally it's just a social it's just what people are doing. You're just -

THERAPIST: And you don't drink hard liquor and wine, (Overlapping Voices) too much?

CLIENT: I don't like wine because wine makes me sleepy and pensive. (chuckles) I can drink whisky, but to me whisky is like a it's like a treat, because I can't I can't do a lot of whisky. So, sometimes, if I'm really feeling in the mood, and I'm I've had a big dinner, and I'm all good, whatever. I'd like one whisky on the rocks, just to enjoy it, and then I'll just go right to the Buds.[00:09:13] But no, shots or whatever, I don't know mixed drinks, I don't do any of that.

THERAPIST: It's funny, because it's another area where it feels like it could be either ways it's still hard to take care of you. Drink more water and not drink as much in general. And, it also feels like it's a place where you're harder on yourself than you necessarily have to be at the same time. You know, like -

CLIENT: Yeah. No, It's hasn't been bothering me. It's doesn't not like it used to. In the past I was drinking too much. I just noticed that this past week because my (Overlapping Voices) sleep has been a little -

THERAPIST: (Overlapping Voices) that it's been crazy,

CLIENT: I was like; Oh, I wonder if it's just plus I'm taking medication and shit. You know what I mean. [00:10:11] Normally, I don't care so much about that, but if it's every night, somehow it's kind of like it's a bit much. (Long Pause)

THERAPIST: So, alcohol even the scene of alcohol means you're going to bed later too. The combination -

CLIENT: Oh yeah always.

THERAPIST: being up late and (Overlapping Voices) (inaudible at [00:11:08])

CLIENT: Although there are times where I'll just come home and go to bed. [00:11:14] I won't stay up. Yeah, yeah, I'll get home like at For example, I'll go to Donnie and Lila's, we go to their house early, so I'm usually home by ten or something, but I'm pretty buzzed. So those nights usually, I'm asleep by midnight because I'll just get in bed-as I'm watching a little TV I'm out. But, yeah, other times, Like last night, I had two so when I got home, I was up. I wasn't It doesn't really make me sleep early a lot of times. (Pause) I don't know (Pause)

THERAPIST: Have you ever been able to fall asleep without drinking at ten? nine thirty, ten? [00:12:05] has that ever (Overlapping Voices) happened?

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Only if I'm exhausted or sick. (Pause)

THERAPIST: You're whole life? I mean at least since you were 16?

CLIENT: Yeah, since I've been older, yeah. (inaudible at [00:12:19]) And that does run in my family.

THERAPIST: (Overlapping Voices) It does?

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Not my mom and dad, but other people in my family. Yeah, like a few of my cousins, my aunt, (Pause) -

THERAPIST: You know, most sleep researchers say that every hour before midnight counts double for hours after midnight (Overlapping Voices) in the average body rhythm.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah, absolutely. This That makes I think it's just nature. There's just something about it, if you just sleep a little bit earlier.

THERAPIST: When it's dark, I mean that -

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: that if the body falls asleep as it gets darker. [00:13:05]

CLIENT: Yeah, right, right, right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at [00:13:08])

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. People knew something, right, back in the day, sunset, time to go to bed. So But yeah it's just I don't know. I've never been able to. (Pause)

THERAPIST: It may not work that way for you. (Overlapping Voices) It may not be what your body needs to do.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah, yeah, overall it's not a big deal. I think it's just I think it's something I need to watch. Because sometimes, then it slides into a little bit excessive. I mean, I don't want to go to bed at four in the morning. I don't care how unconventional my You know what I mean? There might be some times where if I'm finishing a project, or if I'm in the middle of writing that's different. But overall, there's no fucking reason to be up after like two, one-thirty, two, there's no reason to be up past that. [00:14:04] So that's the only issue is that sometimes it becomes it kind of pushes the boundary a little bit.

THERAPIST: But it's such a trend to stay there.

CLIENT: Yeah, and that's why I was thinking about it, because lately that's what's been happening. Maybe it is the drinking. I don't know what it is. But or maybe it's just gotten cold, or I'm just getting more like -(Pause) It is that Sometimes I say is like that cozy feeling. It's all cold outside, and you're like cozy. It's like I enjoy it. It's like I enjoy it's peaceful and quiet and I'm watching a movie. It's nice. But (Laughing) lots of things are nice; it doesn't mean you should be doing them every night. (Pause) [00:14:55]

THERAPIST: I'm suddenly reminded of just thinking about your being home as a latch key kid and the beige carpet, and we were talking about I think it was us that were talking about Nosferatu where that You started to say that because I don't think that You said because I don't think I'd seen it on television, and then you said on the other hand, no one was home (Overlapping Voices) monitoring me. So maybe it did. I wonder, you know, the sort of free range, watching the TV, home by yourself. There's something about there's not an internalized monitoring presence saying time to go to bed Brian, (Overlapping Voices) or not good for you Brian.

CLIENT: Right, right, right, although, (inaudible at [00:15:45]) my parents were pretty I went to be like at eight, or something (Overlapping Voices) like that.

THERAPIST: At night? [00:15:49]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. But, (Pause) yeah, there were periods of time when I was just alone. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well even at night, you're saying for a long time, it was very hard to be (Overlapping Voices) (inaudible at [00:16:06])

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I wonder if it is hard to just close your eyes and be alone. Because as people are drifting off to sleep, that first however long it takes you, you're alone with your thoughts and -

CLIENT: Oh, no, no Well even yeah, yeah. The thing is when I do go to bed Let's say I go to bed at midnight or one. It's not I still have a radio on or something.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't just It's not all silent and I'm just going to sleep. No.

THERAPIST: I mean I've heard you say you often fall asleep with the TV on, but you're saying it feels like you have to the TV or the radio has to be on.

CLIENT: Yep. [00:16:51]

THERAPIST: Or else?

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Or else what happens?

CLIENT: I'm restless, I can't just (Pause) I don't know. Probably nothing happens. I think at this point I probably could just lay there until I fall asleep, but it's just a habit. I like listening to a podcast or something. Because that way I don't have to sit there and be like; Okay, I want to fall asleep. I find that it I don't think. So next thing I know, I'm asleep. (Laughing) It kind of works out. Whereas, I don't know, just laying there, waiting to fall Some of it is also I just know myself. Some people can just fucking put their head anywhere and they are out. I'm not like that. I don't sleep on buses, planes, trains, whatever. I'm just up. I can't just suddenly be out. [00:17:47] And the same with sleeping, I can't just lay there and be like; Okay, give me five minutes and I'll be asleep. It doesn't work like that. I don't think it'd be that bad. I probably just would fall asleep, but I don't know. It's just a habit. (Pause) I mean, I think One think I will say though is that I think it'd be easier now with the cat. Because she's so curled up next to me that I think maybe it would (Laughing) be like It kind of gives my mind because I'm usually just playing with her ear or there's something there, so I don't have to maybe think as much. I don't know (Pause) [00:18:38]

THERAPIST: How about when you fall asleep when you're with a woman?

CLIENT: It's usually not a problem unless I'm somehow uncomfortable. But yeah, it's usually not a problem.

THERAPIST: You don't have to have the TV or -

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: You don't have to have the TV on (Overlapping Voices) or the radio or anything like that?

CLIENT: No, no, that'd be weird. No, yeah, actually, that's a good point. How do I do it then? I have I mean, out of etiquette, I have to. I'm not going to put on a (Laughing) podcast with a chick laying there, but that's actually a good point. Yeah. Now it's usually, especially if I like the person it's very nice. It's I just fall asleep.

THERAPIST: That was my thought about the radio or television, it's company. [00:19:37] In its own way, it's kind of like a soothing other (Overlapping Voices) presence.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's totally soothing.

THERAPIST: And so if you're able to do that then (Overlapping Voices) and it's someone you feel comfortable with.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, in some ways she's Maybe that's why I also stay up sometimes. Because it's so I love it! Do you know what I mean? I'm just like; this is crazy! I'm playing with her ears. I put my hand on her face. She's ridiculous, you know. So it is kind of like It's awesome. I just enjoy that. But (Pause) yeah, that's funny though. Yeah, with a woman, it's usually not an issue. (Pause) Although, the one difference though of course, is usually nine out of ten times, if there's a woman, that means we had sex. So, you definitely sleep (Laughing) a lot better. It's a lot of physical you know. So in some ways it feels really nice to just drift right off to sleep. [00:20:47] It's a little bit (Pause) but even still, there's just something nice. That's actually funny. I never really thought about that. Because I am more a lot of guys aren't cuddly or whatever the word is. But I'm not like that. I not that I want to be attached all night, but as I'm falling asleep, I do like to you know.

THERAPIST: Get close.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's kind of weird. That creeps me out a little bit though because -

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Well it's because Remember I was saying when I was little I'd play with my mom's hair? Because I kind of do the same, I mean I don't play with but I will a little bit. I just women have cool hair. There's just something soothing about that tactile (Pause) [00:21:48] But yeah, I like to be a and then what usually what ends up happening is when I'm feeling really (Pause) like; alright, I'm ready to fall asleep, or whatever, then I'll kind of will turn around or whatever. (Laughing) (Pause)

THERAPIST: It's almost like maybe your mom's hair her hair, that tactile experience is some kind of transitional, peaceful space (Overlapping Voices) where it's soothe there's something very soothing and calming and kind of regulating, and quieting. Almost like having a blankie. I mean that -

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah, it is. Yeah it kind of is, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You didn't have Did you have a blanket (Overlapping Voices) or lucky stuffed animal?

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) No. I had a teddy bear, I think for a while, a brown teddy bear.

THERAPIST: That was important?

CLIENT: I don't really I mean, I remember the teddy bear, so I guess it must have been important, but it didn't last too long, I think. [00:22:57] (Pause) No, I never had anything like that.

THERAPIST: Some kids, I think kids who are more relationally attuned and sensitive and the body At first the body of the mother in some ways skin, hair, something like that is actually sometimes the blanket doesn't cut it. (Overlapping Voices) it's got to be even closer (Overlapping Voices) for a while.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's probably what it was because I definitely was like that, and I am even now. Some of my guy friends joke that I'm the only that some of my guy friends joke that (Pause) when we get together, we'll hug, and do like a bro hug or whatever (Laughing), and some of them will joke that I'm the reason they do that. [00:23:53] They don't do that with their other guy So yeah, I'm just yeah, I'm touchy feely, definitely. I've actually kind of worked on not being so touchy feely, but (Pause) but I am.

THERAPIST: It's funny, even touchy feely has a kind of there's kind of a connotation about being a little (Pause) sappy and negative. (Overlapping Voices) You know?

CLIENT: I don't think it No it's not sappy and negative, but I have noticed that it's not it's kind of like being nice all the time. In the sense that (Pause) you do have to be aware because some people don't get that. So you don't want to waste your (Pause) genuineness. You know what I mean? So I've been a little bit more (Pause) but no, I still do people I care about. I don't care. But but yeah, I am, definitely. [00:24:55](Pause) I mean, look my grandmother now when I see her, a lot of times I don't talk to her. I just sit next to her and I stroke her hair and I just I rub her back or whatever. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Like you feel alive and comfortable and physical contact. I mean that's some people live more in that space feeling really, really at home, and some people it feels uncomfortable.

CLIENT: Yeah no, overall, yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well it's a it's a layer you've always said you're a sexual person and (Overlapping Voices) enjoy sex.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) I was just thinking that, yeah, because I have thought about that in the past. Why am I so comfortable with If I have so many not so many issues, but if I'm so hard on myself or so this, or anxious; why is that like, not only not an issue, it's so far so good, whatever. [00:26:05] But yeah, maybe that's what it's just the physical there's something, you know. (Pause)

THERAPIST: That hugging someone when you're saying hello is another place where you really feel alive (Overlapping Voices) (inaudible at [00:26:23]) and comfortable.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) I think it's yeah, I think it's a very alive feeling. It's like that's when we're animals. You know what I mean? We don't have to say anything. We don't it's just you're communication something so (Pause) genuine and so kind of (Pause) from your gut, so visceral. So yeah, maybe that's what it is. It's like it's just [00:26:48] (Pause) And, it's a way not to think. When you have that kind of (Pause) it shuts your mind off for a while. [00:27:04](Pause) [00:28:22] Yeah, that's interesting. It's all about the (Pause) It's weird to be to be open to touching, but then be a closed off person. It's kind of a weird combo. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was just thinking about (inaudible at [00:28:47]) I think there's this paradox about areas where you can express yourself with your body. Express loving, feelings so openly but not with words.

CLIENT: Right

THERAPIST: It becomes more dangerous with words.

CLIENT: There's more room for saying the wrong thing, or feeling like you're misunderstood, or something like that, or [00:29:29) (Pause)

THERAPIST: It's interesting, because with words it feels like there's more possibility lingering with rejection somehow and hurt. You know, just misunderstanding.

CLIENT: Or just awkwardness or whatever. (Pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at [00:30:43]) your coat getting stuck on the door, yesterday (Overlapping Voices) (inaudible at [00:30:48])

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) h yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Just is this moment where there's this action happening that doesn't have words yet, that may or may not have meaning, but (Overlapping Voices) your coat didn't want to leave. (Laughing)

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) What? Oh, funny. Yeah. (Pause) [00:31:10]

THERAPIST: You always said, I don't that you're not a believer, so much, in telling people how you feel, but you will show them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There's some action, body (inaudible at [00:31:34]) (Overlapping Voices) feels more comfortable, (Overlapping Voices) less vulnerable.

CLIENT: Even though I was just thinking but even though that's weird because I the other paradox is but then I have all these kind of slightly psychosomatic, bodily (Laughing)-So that's that's funny, that's strange. I was actually just thinking about I'm like; alright, I'm going to see Kelly tonight. (Pause) It probably will go nice, whatever, and we'll have sex or whatever, but and yet in this moment, or yesterday, today, whatever, I feel kind of yucky. [00:32:15] You know, I just I feel a little(Pause) not hypochondriacal or whatever, but I do feel a little I am a little bit focused on bodily sensations. So that's kind of weird too. You know? It's like -

THERAPIST: It is and it isn't though. I mean, to me that it fits right in with what we're talking about; that your body has always been the familiar zone of expressing something, whether it's sex, whether it's a symptom, that the body is speaking something that you aren't maybe don't have words for yet.

CLIENT: I guess that's true, yeah. [00:33:04]

THERAPIST: I mean, you said about alcohol, for example, then you don't alcohol and sex, you don't get to think. You don't have to think. That there this bodily expression is an expression of something without having to think about it too much. Like a psychosomatic symptom, (Overlapping Voices) it's (inaudible at [00:33:32]) in the body, but if we start to sort of pull it up, what's it really about. If we as I think about it, usually the actual symptom starts to fade.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah, that's true actually. Right, that's true. (Pause)

THERAPIST: You could be drinking more because you're thinking more (inaudible at [00:33:53]). You've been saying that. (Overlapping Voices) You've been thinking a lot. This is That's what this is kind of designed to do.

CLIENT: Right, right, that's true. [00:34:02] (Pause) But that's the funny thing. I don't drink at home. (Pause) So it's I mean, I think it's more that I'm maybe socializing a little bit more. And that's part of it too, like I'm just maybe I want to be out with people, kind of change my mood or change you know. So that's just part yeah. But yeah, maybe it's just part of the all the same thing.

THERAPIST: Or maybe that's something healthy that you're actually (Overlapping Voices) wanting to get out and be social.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah, over I think that part is healthy. I think maybe it's just the while I'm out, it's just kind of like; Oh, this is a that nice added distraction, or whatever. [00:35:03] (Pause) [00:36:04] But, yeah, I must be feeling some kind of anxiety a little, because I do this past week, I've been having that feeling again of like remember I said I feel like I can't breathe, like I'm not breathing right, or something? I've been feeling that way like all week. It's like one of my least I hate that feeling. It's like I'm just like; why what's happening here? I'm obviously breathing, but like I'm not getting enough air, or something. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Maybe that's a metaphor for something. [00:36:52] (Pause) [00:38:09] Where are you?

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Where'd you just go in your head?

CLIENT: I was just thinking about that. I hate that feeling. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Where you getting it just now, the feeling?

CLIENT: Yeah, I've had it like all yeah, yesterday, today. So, then I just end up feeling yucky. I just feel like maybe it's just maybe I'm like so out of shape, or maybe I'm just it turns into something psychosomatic kind of stuff.

THERAPIST: When'd you notice it yesterday? Do you know? You didn't seem like you were feeling it when you got here.

CLIENT: No, I didn't maybe I didn't feel it as much in here. Yeah, but see the thing is, it happens so often, I've I think I don't even bring it up as much because it's such it's like part of me. [00:39:10] But yeah, it happens often.

THERAPIST: Where you feel specifically short of breath?

CLIENT: Yeah. Is it true? I don't know. I just feel like I'm not breathing right. You know? (Pause) Which is the only thing when I'm sleeping with a woman. That's the only thing that does make me uncomfortable. Because very sometime para not paranoid, self-conscious. I'll be like; am I breathing to loud? You know? Because I'll I'm not sometimes I'll breathe with my mouth open a little bit, and I hate that but sometimes I just feel more comfortable like that. And -

THERAPIST: Why do you hate that?

CLIENT: Just I don't know. If I see people doing it I kind of I just don't like it to be a habit. You know? To just to be like breathe through your just have your mouth open, breathe it's a little weird. [00:40:08] So yeah, that's the only thing that sometimes makes me very uncomfortable for a little while. (inaudible at [00:40:15] I'll be like I'm like; am I breathing too loud? Like, she like she's probably like what the fuck is this guy breathing (Laughing) so loud for? Or yeah, I don't know. It's just yeah, that'll bother me sometimes. Especially if I'm really cuddled, so it's warmer, and I don't do very well with heat. So, I'll be trying to breathe through my nose, but I'll just be feeling hot and kind of but then I'll be like; no I bet if you breathe through your mouth it's going to be loud. I don't know that's one weird thing I have. And then of course, then it makes me start thinking. Why am I what why do I have this weird issue with breathing? What the fuck is this?

THERAPIST: With even I mean it's breathing. Think of how basic that is. How you could feel self-conscious about breathing. It's sad in a way. I'm just thinking about you as a kid somehow. What about your sense of yourself can carry over to the most basic -

CLIENT: Oh, I guess I never (Laughing) thought of it that way. That's true. Yeah, I'm fucking breathing. Yeah, right. [00:41:17] That's -

THERAPIST: Everybody breathes, right? I mean, it's like you can't do anything if you're not breathing, and it makes a little noise.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's one thing if you have a cold, and then it might but you're saying this has sort of even when things are feeling ok.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like this image somehow of your presence getting too loud and big, and somehow a turn off. There's a fantasy of that somehow behind it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I see what you're saying. I never thought of it that way. It's like yeah, what how could you be hard on yourself for breathing? I think it's yeah, it's just what I do, is I focus on the physical that somehow actually no shit, that's crazy, that I'm somehow (Laughing) I feel like I'm even doing that wrong. [00:42:06] You know? It's that thing of like I'm not even breathing the way other people breathe. It's like I'm breathing weird or something. That's crazy, whoa. (Pause) Yeah, that's fucked up. And you know what, that maybe that's I'm I mean, normally what I think is happening is because a lot of people with anxiety, don't know that they're kind of hyperventilating.

THERAPIST: That can happen, yeah.

CLIENT: Because I think what's happening is because I'm trying to breathe more normally, I'm fucking up my breathing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it actually could be happening (Overlapping Voices) Oh, yeah, totally.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Yeah and it does, especially when I'm with a woman. I feel like I'm holding my breath a little bit. I'm trying to breathe a certain way and the more I do that, of course, I feel like I can't breathe. (Laughing) You know what I mean? [00:43:05]

THERAPIST: Well if you're working to try to sort of muffle normal breathing, (Overlapping Voices) then you're chest gets tightened and then you actually do lose air, and then (gasps), you have to inhale and it might even be louder and, you know.

CLIENT: (Overlapping Voices) Exactly

THERAPIST: The whole thing just gets dis-regulated, and it's just from feeling uncomfortable being yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Monday.

CLIENT: Okay, I think I got to bring you a check on Monday. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: Fine.

CLIENT: So, what time Monday?

THERAPIST: Ten o'clock?

CLIENT: Ten o'clock (Overlapping Voices) Monday.

THERAPIST: (Overlapping Voices) Right? Is our permanent time for then, 12:50 Thursday, and then now Fridays now are at 11:30.

CLIENT: Okay, cool.

THERAPIST: And then (I [00:43:50]) next week, the following week, we won't meet Monday. Just Monday.

CLIENT: Right, okay, cool. See you Monday at ten.

THERAPIST: Okay.

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