TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (inaudible at [00:00:04]) (chuckles) whew, oh yeah, ooh (sniff) aw man, whew. I had some crazy dreams again last night and I don't remember what they were or if they were really bad.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: They were kind of bad I think and some parts were kind of bad but (inaudible) [00:00:27].

THERAPIST: You don't remember any of them?

CLIENT: I don't remember about anything. Next time when I woke up I remembered, no, I don't remember. Just when I woke up I was like all right that was some weird shit. I think there was a girl, there might have been (rugeneck) (ph) because we did, we fixed that leak thing. Did I tell you about that?

THERAPIST: Ah huh.

CLIENT: The last few days so maybe I saw some construction maybe.

THERAPIST: (sighs twice).

CLIENT: And I guess it's good it wasn't so bad like some times on my job it doesn't really hurt that much.

THERAPIST: (sighs).

CLIENT: Actually, doesn't hurt at all. (sniff). But...

THERAPIST: You didn't have a sense of having a nightmare or a night terror, it sounds like, maybe than a bizarre dream, but it wasn't terrifying.

CLIENT: No, no it wasn't. (inaudible) it was even weird, it was only weird because I think it was like disparate things. It wasn't any kind of, I saw these random images or whatever, I think. at [00:01:27]

THERAPIST: (sighs).

PAUSE: [00:01:37-00:02:02]

CLIENT: It makes me nervous, too, a little bit like Kelly (sp?) is coming to hang out tonight and hope I don't like in my sleep or you know, (slip out) (ph) wake her up or I don't know what I'm doing when I'm sleeping. [00:02:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I hope you don't (cross talk).

CLIENT: But I (inaudible) like snoring really bad, or do you know what I mean? Like, maybe she would have said something by now if I was, but, ah, yeah. Yeah, it's always more, you get more angry if it's someone sleeping next to you, you can't totally, it's hard to completely relax. But, I'm going to be fine, but it makes me a little nervous. (Yawn). My bed isn't huge.

THERAPIST: (sighs).

CLIENT: (Sniffs).

THERAPIST: It's almost like some general fear that if she gets too close to you it could be something she sees she doesn't like.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. As long as it's just more practical and I've had, I think, two girlfriends, Meredith and I think there was someone else maybe, who told me that like you know, if someone does snore really bad, you know, so that's made me kind of paranoid?

THERAPIST: But, so what? So what?

CLIENT: Well, that's fucking annoying. I mean, I can, you know, and that's you know. I mean it's just this practical thing, it's just, you know, shit like that is really annoying. Plus, it makes me paranoid that I have something, you know, that, oh, shit, I should do something absolutely bad in the air like I get all hypochondriac about it.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: But, anyway I don't think it's any of that, I think it's more just, I just can't tell the nights I'm going to have some wacky dream in the night or not.

THERAPIST: And the fear is that she'd know something?

CLIENT: Yeah, that she'd know, or just for myself that like if I saw that I woke up at like three in the morning, you know, like what

THERAPIST: In a panic (ph). [00:04:16]

CLIENT: Yeah, and that just kind of sucks, you know.

THERAPIST: Feeling that vulnerable in a way around her.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

PAUSE: [00:04:25 00:04:31]

CLIENT: But whenever I (inaudible) I guess the good news is I haven't been having them that bad, even last night it wasn't, I didn't wake up from it or anything. I don't remember being scared in the dream, it was just like, it was just a lot of crazy, I just don't remember what the fuck it was, but (sniff) (clapping sounds x 5) (pause) (clapping x 4).

THERAPIST: It's just to remind me of your dream that we ever really talk about it was embedded in some of your dreams of I think you were in a restaurant or something? We thought it was kind of like a restaurant and there was someone in this bathroom stall and...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And then they, the person came out and said that you know, said something about the hole or the leak...

CLIENT: Right, right...

THERAPIST: And you said, "uh uh, it wasn't me."

CLIENT: Right, right...

THERAPIST: You just think that your association was to your house and fixing the leak...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ... with the dream last night.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: ... that's the metaphor for leaking houses.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think there was leaking (sniff) there was leaking, okay, all right there was one thing now I suddenly remember. There were lots of leaks in my apartment. (Sniff). Lots and lots of leaks and I was totally panicked about that. I was like why (chuckles) how is this possible? And either my parents or some parent figures...

THERAPIST: (sighs).

CLIENT: Oh, shit! Now I remember something else, yeah.

THERAPIST: (Laughs).

CLIENT: Either some parent or some parental figures were in the dream.

Then-I was in a place like the Square, but it wasn't, and I was with this blond chick-I don't know who she was, kind of, she had like tattoos-someone I seemed to know. She had like long hair, she had like tattoos like shoulder, like around here and it was something like one of these places where I remember I was all excited because I, it was as if like I had been pursuing her and in this dream she was all into it. So we were like oh, my God, (inaudible) weird shit. So like we were-wait a minute-we were with a third person that was like a chaperon or some shit like that. I don't know who that was but we were like making out on like stairways, you know, and at one point we made out in this place where there were just people sitting around but it was weird, they were just kind of sitting there or something... [00:06:57]

THERAPIST: And watching?

CLIENT: Yeah, kind of. But, yes and no, kind of? And we were like totally making out and she was like saying all this stuff and one of them said something about Jewish people and I like totally like put him in his or her place. It was like what I'm not even fucking Jewish, like what the fuck you ta... it wasn't like, it wasn't one of those angry, like yelling, it was really more like I just kind of, it was even like half joking kind of because I'm not even Jewish, really. I still (chuckles) feel like that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But yeah, damn, it's weird.

THERAPIST: (Sighs).

CLIENT: (Sniffs). And whoever this girl is, it was someone that I had been-oh, and also she lived somewhere up, because we took the bus, like she had to stop at Bank of America for some reason, but she lived up there for somewhere, I don't know.

THERAPIST: (Hmm).

CLIENT: (Sniff).

PAUSE: [00:08:15-00:08:22]

CLIENT: But, yeah, the leak, yeah, that whole, my bedroom, and that this was my apartment, it definitely was my apartment. There was the, part of the ceiling was kind of caved in, there was water pouring everywhere.

THERAPIST: And you left your apartment and you found the girl? (cross talk) or was that in a separate apartment?

CLIENT: Yeah, I just don't remember. I don't remember the transition, yeah.

THERAPIST: (Hmm).

PAUSE:

CLIENT: Yeah, and the worse thing is I kind of see the girl in my mind. She wasn't like that her I remember, but (inaudible) didn't look like anyone I know or didn't ...

THERAPIST: (Hmm).

CLIENT: It's weird.

THERAPIST: I wonder what you make of it, both parts.

CLIENT: The only thing I can think and because for some reason my mind goes right there, so it must be some subconscious thing. There's a girl-no she's not she's a woman-but she, a girl that sang on my first record named Jennifer (sp?) ...

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

CLIENT: And she was in like some kind of pretty like well-known indie kind of bands. But she was a little bit older than me, but probably about 45 now or something. But anyway, she sang some backing vocals on some tracks and it was like a big deal for us, you know, that she did. And, this was like a while ago, and for whatever reason, like I had always wanted to kind of be friends with her? I've already thought we would be because what she was singing on the fucking record, but it just never happened? She's very, very, very shy, like weirdly and like awkward and I think maybe she got the sense that maybe like I had a crush on her or something, which back then I probably did, knowing me. But for some reason, oh, so yesterday or the day before on-once in a blue moon some picture I'll put on there she'll like it. It's random. I never know. So she had-there's some picture I had of Cecelia (sp?) on there, so I'm wondering if that ...[00:10:29]

CLIENT: You mean like on Facebook or something like that?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like that.

CLIENT: So,, I don't know why but for some reason that she's, this girl didn't look anything like her, but I'm wondering if that's, you know ... I have no idea.

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible) composite of different people or something. Oh, she had freckles, too. I remember that. And really blue eyes. Maybe it was Kelly (sp?), maybe, I don't know. Yeah? [00:10:48]

THERAPIST: Or me?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:11:06] I thought about that. Oh. I mean, I mean, I guess, maybe. Maybe, it's like I said, little parts of different people, maybe, yeah. But, it wasn't a, it was a good, that was a good part of the dream. It was good. Except, well, except for the people. I understand what that was all about, but for a while we were choosing to make out in like these public or semi-public places. Oh, and at one point I (laughs) I remember (inaudible) and I kept noticing the doors of this doorway and they were big, heavy doors. So in the middle I kept feeling like, man, these doors are, (laughing) see these doors, it's fucking crazy.

Almost like, those like, I don't know, just like medieval or just thick, huge doors that you-that was interesting.

THERAPIST: You weren't having to hold them out-you were just sort of ...

CLIENT: No, no, they were (cross talk) just open.

THERAPIST: In awe of their size .,.

CLIENT: We were in this doorway, but I was like ‘what kind of doorway is this?'

THERAPIST: Um hmm (laughs).

PAUSE: [00:12:16 00:12:23]

THERAPIST: Because it was odd, too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know who that third person was. I thought there was some third person.

THERAPIST: My fantasy was the tape recorder.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: My fantasy was the tape recorder.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: That's the third person.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: (Chuckle)

CLIENT: That's pushing it a little bit, that's, it could be. Yeah, as you remember, at one point in the dream I was like ‘I wonder if this guy wanted her' and I just, you know, stepped on his toes or I for whatever reason I got her. And I remember, I liked just thinking that (inaudible) who that was. [00:13:07]

THERAPIST: Well, it's a, I mean, a metaphor also for me it sounds and are you on the inside of the dyad and there is someone else on the outside? Are you on the outside looking in? Your mother and father? I think you sort of can go back and forth about feeling inside or outside.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that that can even happen in families and in every relationship.

CLIENT: Sure.

PAUSE: [00:13:40] [00:13:50]

THERAPIST: Including this one. (inaudible) you could feel connected and safe, and vulnerable and safe and feel good about you, or times where I could feel too much, too scary, too humiliating and then feel back to being the outsider. The dream has, I mean that it's really interesting the leaking, too. It's like I can ask you to imagine (inaudible) you're trying to (inaudible) about Kelly (sp?) and what's going to come out at night. Is my stuff going to leak out? Is my snoring going to leak out? What of me is going to be, just, I can't plug the holes anymore and being so vulnerable. And that that can happen here too but isn't that, it's good, it's actually that we're into that and with me it doesn't have to be like leaking. Just be in the room. [[00:14:14]

CLIENT: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. That's true. I didn't think about that. It's rare that to have a dream where-that starts off kind of bad but ends as far as I can remember, pretty good. You know? That's interesting.

PAUSE [00:14:55 [00:15:04]

CLIENT: The only thing I thought was that the, about the making out, the people sitting around, whatever they were doing, was like in some ways it's as if it's in defiance of that. You know what I mean? Which I just could, it's like ‘all right if you're just going to sit there and be whatever, weird, or whatever is going to happen, I'm still going to, you know.

THERAPIST: Almost like, ‘I don't care'?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: ‘I'm not changing who I am (cross talk) ...

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: ... or what I'm doing here.'

CLIENT: Right. Right. I don't know.

PAUSE: [00:15:36 00:15:58]

THERAPIST: There's still a third (inaudible) hovering with a judgment about who you are that you have to defy (ph) and yet are you for your own care, too. [00:16:11]

PAUSE: [00:16:14 [00:16:25]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) that feels like a stretch?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: That they're (cross talk) ...

CLIENT: Oh, for that third ... (cross talk) that to me ...

THERAPIST: .. like a metaphor?

CLIENT: I mean it just so doesn't bother me.

THERAPIST: It doesn't.

PAUSE: [00:16:36]

CLIENT: You know, maybe it's, I've done a lot of recording, so maybe I'm just kind of

THERAPIST: You're used to it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm not like ‘oh, my voice sounds weird (inaudible). I kind of, I'm already used to that feeling of hearing yourself recorded. It's not, so, it's not a big deal. [00:16:48]

PAUSE: [00:17:05]

CLIENT: Speaking of which, I think I have to look for another drummer. The (inaudible) at the meeting yesterday. The drummer cancelled again. So, I think he's a good kid but he always has an excuse. His car wasn't starting. He was sick. He was still in New York for Christmas or whatever. It's like, you know, you can't-if it was a small business it wouldn't matter if you had a lot of good excuses if you keep missing ...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ... you're missing. Even if we like you or whatever, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So. I don't know. It's kind of not fair to the other guys, too, like they're making them-it's like they're my songs, it was my band. These guys are making an effort to be there, to work at it, so. I don't know. (Pause with thumping sounds). It was good. I didn't really freak out about it. I was thinking about it. It was like, ‘alright, well, see this is why we have to be-first of all just accept the idea that a lot of bands change members, but also that you have to be the one that's always keeping it going-with it-it's your stuff. It doesn't matter if these guys come and go in some ways, you know, so. (Sniff). Yeah.

PAUSE: [00:18:28 [00:18:39]

CLIENT: (Sniff) (thumping sound) (snaps fingers) Maybe it was one of the chicks at my guitar player's brother's bar where we go after practice every time. There are just two girls that work there that just, it's kind of (ph) I mean they're just really, really sexy, you know. Maybe this girl thatit was a little bit of that, too. [00:18:50]

PAUSE: (Flicking or tapping sounds) [00:18:57]

THERAPIST: So this was somebody you were really into-you'd be really into, you're saying-in the dream.

CLIENT: (inaudible) [00:19:11]

THERAPIST: It was somebody you were, it was, someone you'd be into in real life in other words.

CLIENT: The girl in the dream?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she was really pretty and like, yeah. The tattoo was weird, though, because that's-those tattoos, not those tattoos, but where she had those tattoos is where this other girl had tattoos.

THERAPIST: Oh, really.

CLIENT: She had like a beautiful, kind of bigger thing back here. (Pause) I mean it wasn't her, but maybe the blond, something about her, maybe is (inaudible).

PAUSE: [00:19:47 00:19:55]

THERAPIST: It does sound like an amalgam.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah it does.

THERAPIST: (Cross talk) the representation of her. Or, even you can think of her as a representation of part of yourself, too, that when you are in that place of feeling good about you, proud of being an artist-and we've been talking about this-proud of aesthetics, you know, that this is you and something that you can actually expect and love and live in. It's a different sort of self-state, self opinion represented.

CLIENT: That makes sense.

THERAPIST: About you. And loveable.

CLIENT: Um hmm.

PAUSE: [00:20:37 00:21:31]

CLIENT: (Sniffs) Yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's also like (clears throat) with Kelly, like (clears throat) it's going like really well? So maybe there's definitely like still part of me that's still kind of-you know, think about it-I've gotten so used to being who I am and also like these relationships kind of coming and going and, you know, I'm sure it's a little part of me is like it's so nerve wracking that this is going so well, or something. You know what I mean? (Sniff).

THERAPIST: Hmm.

PAUSE: [00:22:16 [00:22:22]

THERAPIST: It sounds like, ‘now what?' ‘What's next?'

CLIENT: Um hmm.

PAUSE: [00:22:26 00:22:34]

CLIENT: (Flicking/thumping sound) (inaudible).

PAUSE: [00:22:37 00:23:00]

CLIENT: (Flicking/thumping sound)

THERAPIST: If you know what's next, that there's a feeling of being really in this and it's new and then you get more vulnerable and you might be snoring and then you might have a bad dream next to her that your dream could even be returning to something older and safer and familiar, you know. That winning the girl over, being the one who won instead of him, kind of old stuff, but about your conquests instead of ...

CLIENT: And also just the physical part. I mean I don't ...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ... really know anything about this girl.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ... there's no sexual (inaudible). [00:23:40]

THERAPIST: Right. It's sort of ideally erotic again and you win and it's hot and ...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ... everything's great...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...but you get to forget about those leaks.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

PAUSE: [00:23:52 00:24:27]

CLIENT: And I think a lot of this stuff is like what-except what do you do when things haven't felt okay for basically, ever? And then they kind of do. You know what I mean? It's not a big deal if it makes you feel okay, but it is a big deal if they have not felt okay, basically, for years and years and years and years. So that when I start to feel okay it's like yeah, it's almost like not boring but it's almost like a different kind of like busy, now you have to make the most of your day or your, it's like you have to, you know-you know Kelly's not crazy. You have to think there's no-there's not other kinds of drama or, or whatever. I don't know.

PAUSE: [00:25:22 00:26:14]

THERAPIST: Drama in a way could have been plugging the holes. (Pause) It takes up a lot of time and energy and fills space and the feeling was always something to fill the void and what, when things are calmer, I think could also feel very disconcerting.

CLIENT: Um hmm. (Sniffs)

PAUSE: [00:26:43 [00:26:47]

CLIENT: Yeah, ‘cause it's also like even like with art, you know, when things kind of feel okay you can't use your art as some idealized like fantasy like, yeah, like ‘things are so fucked up', but then you fantasize by your art saving you from that or creating great art because of that. It's-when things are okay, not great, but they're just normal or whatever, okay?-then that art or whatever, it becomes what it actually is, which is, I mean, it's kind of like a job. You know what I mean? Like you can't wait for bad things to happen to react to through writing a poem or something, or a song. So, yeah, it's weird. So, it's like to me, like everything almost in a weird way feels kind of bland. Do you know what I mean? Like now it just feels like ‘wha' (chuckles). It just is what it is, you know?

PAUSE: [00:27:59 [00:28:06]

THERAPIST: Although "normal" can be quite painful, too: to not-I mean, I guess I'm just-I keep thinking you're not describing nothing in this transition (inaudible) it's quite remarkable what you're describing in what bland is like relative to drama. That's-I think that feels like something-it doesn't feel like a nothing?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Maybe I'm just-maybe what I'm really talking about is, yeah, maybe it's fear. Because yeah, it doesn't feel bland, it feels good. So, maybe it's just fear of like ‘so, now what am I supposed to do?' or, what-you know what I mean? (thumping sounds). I mean, it sounds gay, but it's almost like now it's more existential, like a real existential question of life. It seems like, all right, it is nice, it feels good, but it also feels like ‘what exactly are we doing; what is this?'-or something like that-I don't know, it's hard to explain.

THERAPIST: And that's not like something you can write about.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I guess that's all I'm saying is like it doesn't sound like there's nothing ...

CLIENT: No, no, no.

THERAPIST: It's a new-it's new.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I think you're still wrapping your mind around what this is.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: What there is ... (cross talk)

CLIENT: No, I mean clearly I've been writing a lot of new songs that actually really like already way better than what...

THERAPIST: You said.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I feel it's safe to parti (ph) to start writing again, you know, I don't know. But, yeah, it's just yeah, there's something about it that's definitely like you said, it's just unnerving. [00:29:49]

THERAPIST: And I could see it feeling bland. If you're going from drama-at first for a while it's going to feel like ‘so what?'

CLIENT: Yeah. I love plans to write where, yeah, there is just something, yeah. Again, it's just that I'm so hardwired, or I have been, for there to be something, something weird or you know, and now that there isn't, it's interesting, for sure.

PAUSE: [00:30:33 [00:30:39]

CLIENT: Or it's just some voice saying like ‘well, you don't deserve this, so this is not how things are supposed to go for you so we're going to make you feel like it's bland or something. You know what I mean, like ‘we're going to give you a negative connotation of it?' Yeah, because now that I think about it, when I'm in it, it doesn't feel bland. I'm happy that things are the way they are.

THERAPIST: So the negative voice might be a kind of lure back to the repetition of making somehow-this would be a bad thing?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, this girl-she was great, but I don't know, it's kind of-so, this is it? Like, what, you're going to like live with this girl and her kid and have some blah-you know what I mean? Or like last night was the first time with those bartenders at the bar-it was the first time it's like-'yeah, I do kind of wish Kelly (sp?) was a little bit skinnier' (chuckles). But I caught myself, it was like: ‘no (laughing) no, no, no.'

PAUSE: [00:31:56 [00:32:07]

CLIENT: It's like that's-you see, now I know, like that's just-because that's nonsense because I can go out with one of those bartenders and then I'd find something else and be like-'oh, this is a bartender, I don't know (inaudible). It's just sad-you know, whatever, I'll find some other fucking thing. So... [00:32:21]

PAUSE: [00:32:26 [00:32:37]

CLIENT: I mean if you think about it? That's astounding. If you think about this Kelly (sp?) thing, it's kind of fucking astounding, right? A girl I went out with two years ago could disappear like for two fucking years and then sought me out and now she's my girlfriend. I think that's-you know? You can't keep looking a gift horse in the-you know what I mean? I mean, I'm not putting her on a pedestal, I'm just saying, ‘what a great thing'-like that's awesome. And so you can't, like I really see now how I can be very quick to just not see when things are like, wow-what a great thing, you know. It doesn't mean it's going to be like a 60-year marriage or something, but in the moment, you know, it's like I don't want to be-I'm finally getting much, much better at not just finding ways to just dismiss things, or, you know...

PAUSE: [00:33:31 [00:33:45]

THERAPIST: There's no strong sense anxiety of good enoughness

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: about yourself...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...about other people.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yup.

THERAPIST: It's either sort of gleaming ideal perfect or devalued.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: Lots of words you use to devalue people (chuckle).

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, at the end of the day that's one of the biggest, that's a major issue. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Is what I think happens to those other people and towards yourself...

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: When you talk about with yourself, but, (Pause) it's not that the right people married saying, ‘I wish she were a little thinner.' Like what a-I'm sure every person in every marriage has something they wished were different.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: Have a list of things they wish were different. But, that there's a lot here that is good enough.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That makes this...

CLIENT: Well, also in a more pragmatic sense that let's say she were thinner, then there'd be something el-I think like a lot of people are able to get to that point where that's a never ending game-you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: There's never perfect.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Whereas for me for some reason there's, yeah, there's completely skewed, unrealistic...(pause) and that's definitely from, I mean that's clearly from my mom's side. (Sigh) It's clear why they're never happy, you know (yawn)? (Sniff). You know? When they were doing the construction my mom was like a hawk, like that looks so like it's a whole-like she's so fucking-some of it I got, I get, because you know, that shit leaked for a long time. And if I was living there, but that's, I mean I give her a lot of credit-she just beared it-you know what I mean? That's, I mean, that's fucking annoying, you know. But, some of it was just her. You know, and me feeling like ‘are they doing a good enough job?' Like, ‘dude-this is what they do', you know.

PAUSE: [00:36:11 00:36:14]

CLIENT: So. Yeah, when I think like that, that's what I've been fighting all these years, that I'm not like that, but have a little part of me in that ...

THERAPIST: It's another layer of your dream and the leaks as you're picking up on what stirred hearing her being so critical, so nit-picky, and so you're looking for the flaws and looking for the mistakes that you know what it's like being on the receiving end of that but you also know that you have embodied that yourself over time towards other people.

CLIENT: Well I have toward myself.

THERAPIST: And toward yourself. I started thinking when you said, ‘I snore', and I think, ‘so?'

(Both chuckle)

THERAPIST: There's a way you said it, is as though it's a factually very bad thing to have about you and it just is a fact of the matter. Remember you said just the same thing when you were sick and we were talking about-you kept saying, ‘I'm sorry, I'm sorry I'm here'-it was the Thursday before and you were out Friday because you were sick? They way you said-I said, ‘is it germs, are you worried about germs, or is it like mucus?' and you said, ‘no, you just don't blow your nose in front of other people,' and I thought, ‘really? ‘cause I think you do that (laugh) when ...

CLIENT: I don't.

THERAPIST: ...you're in families or when you're, you know-that's part of being a person.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Well, I know.

THERAPIST: [00:37:41]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Well, I just have this weird...

THERAPIST: It's really strict.

CLIENT: Yeah, very strict.

THERAPIST: What's good and what's not good enough.

CLIENT: Or, I mean, I don't think snoring is good. There is no way we can become a positive about snoring, but I get where you're, I mean, I get what you're saying.

THERAPIST: But maybe not love with someone (cross talk)

CLIENT: But what you're saying is it's not a (pause) it's one thing if you've been married for 10, 20 years, and that's like a serious problem and now it kind of bothers you, but you're also concerned about the person's health. You know what I mean? But, when you're first dating somebody, yeah, it can't be, unless you're an asshole, it can't be the reason that you decide you don't want to be with somebody. Yeah, but in my mind it's just like a very vulnerable, kind of ugly, you know...

THERAPIST: How interesting. I get (inaudible) that that could be something she could find endearing or cute or that you could joke about‘I guess I have to put ear plugs in, or you know-(cross talk)

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. See, like if she did joke that would hurt my feelings.

THERAPIST: Ahhh.

CLIENT: That would hurt my feelings. Yeah, yeah. That's a good example, yeah, if she brought it up somehow, I'd feel really like embarrassed and annoyed at myself. I'd immediately start hating myself and even if she was joking I would be like, now, she'd like-it would get really bad-like every joke has truth in it and she doesn't like it and then I'll imagine like, well other guys-it's crazy, man, like when Meredith told me I immediately assumed-I don't know, I don't know how to describe the weird cognitive dissonance, because I know that it's not true, but I was like, ‘oh, fuck, other guys don't snore.' Of course, they fucking, yeah, not all guys, not all peoples.

THERAPIST: But a lot of people...(chuckle)

CLIENT: A lot of people snore. Men or women, you know. So-but I've got to this place of like, ‘I must be so bad and such a bad snorer and probably her other boyfriends never snored-they're all like in better shape and you know I started spiraling out of control. Yeah. And it's only now that I can say, ‘well, wait a minute,' I mean-for all I know, Kelly (sp?) snores, and I'm sleeping.

(Cross talk and both laugh)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? (laughing)

THERAPIST: Right. (laughing)

CLIENT: Like, ‘who the fuck knows?'

(dog barks)

THERAPIST: I just want to let you know that I'm going to be taking a long weekend the weekend of MLK on Monday. So the 18th, I'll be out of January, and the 21st. So, it's a Friday and a Monday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'll let you know. There are a couple of other dates into the spring and I can't even write it down-just make a note.

CLIENT: Okay. No problem.

THERAPIST: I just want to let you know it's a future (inaudible) [00:40:33]

CLIENT: Okay. Ah, Monday at 10?

THERAPIST: Yes. (inaudible) [00:40:38]

CLIENT: Okay. See (inaudible).

END TRANSCRIPT