TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Yeah got a dry cough. It's going around, this year is just...

THERAPIST: Bad year?

CLIENT: Insane. I'm actually lucky I think it's just I'm kind of, so far at least. But yeah, I can't believe it, how sick people have been.

THERAPIST: The flus...

CLIENT: Yeah, I read in the Globe 700 people died. Like "what the fuck." Weird. But it was interesting, I was driving over here and I was like, I've always hated how I, there's something about being sick like, I get aggravated and I get more negative, you know? On my here I was like "what is the big deal? Why do I do that? Yeah I'm sick but I'm not..." Thank god I don't have the flu or I'm not super stuffed up, I have a dry cough and I feel kind of achy but I'll go grab some Mucinex and I'll be...I don't know. I was just thinking about it on my over here. Like tonight we have practice and I was like aggravated, I'm like "what the fuck?" I'm not going to cancel practice. [00:01:19] The drummer's been cancelling and I want to have some consistency but, then I was like "why am I even thinking about this that much?" I have a cold, whatever.

THERAPIST: You're aware, it sounds like that it's...had meaning beyond that you have a cold?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It means something more than that?

CLIENT: Yeah. And yesterday I was like "oh I'm going to see Kelly Saturday I better not be fucking sick. That will suck." I just get all wrapped up in stuff, lots of people, pretty much everybody I guess this year, you know, has a cold, they deal with it, they go out if they have to go out or whatever. There's nothing to get that worked up about.

THERAPIST: When you say in your mind "better not be sick this weekend when I see Kelly or else..."

CLIENT: Just because we see each other like once a week. So, you know, I don't want to be off, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I guess what does that mean? I mean nobody likes to be sick right, that's a given but it sounds like it, there's some other layers of worry about it. [00:02:31]

CLIENT: Just that I might not be able to have as much fun or I won't be able to...I'll be tired or you know, just feel yucky.

THERAPIST: And then?

CLIENT: No, that's the thing I thought if I feel worse then I mean I'd probably tell her "listen I don't want you to get sick, you're more than welcome to hang out but..." What's the big deal, do you know what I mean? It's just I've always had this sickness, I just get aggravated, there's something about it. (pause)

THERAPIST: Again I think being sick at one level is aggravating for most people.

CLIENT: Yeah of course, for anybody.

THERAPIST: But there's something that feels like there's more on the mind beyond simply that it's annoying.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:03:32] I guess it's just that feeling of like, I don't know, I don't know what to do maybe it's partly like (pause) maybe it's a manifestation of the emotional feelings of being like anxious and annoyed and the stuff I've historically felt. Maybe when I'm sick I feel like that's a physical, you know what I mean? Just feeling grumpy and yucky, like I stopped at Dunkin, you feel kind of woozy when you're sick, kind of just out of it. So I'm not really, that's partly what I hate about it. You feel kind of stuck, "it's a beautiful day wish I was getting shit done but I'm not because this thing is holding me back." I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like there's one layer...

CLIENT: It's a weakness I guess in a way, you just feel weak. Physically but also, you know? It also could be I don't really get that sick. I haven't had the flu in I don't know how long, you know? I usually get something like this maybe like once a year maybe. This is fucking twice now. So it also could be that. Some people just get sick, you know what I mean? They know that once, a certain month or whatever they're going to get sinus infections or whatever the fuck they get. [00:05:03] Maybe with me when I get sick I just get aggravated because I don't really get sick. I don't know.

THERAPIST: The thing though when you get it it sounds like it, you don't feel like you don't get sick. There's like...

CLIENT: Emotionally and mentally yeah.

THERAPIST: It feels like, even though rationally you know that's not true, you don't get sick that often compared to most people.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But it can feel when you're in it like it's another obstacle.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Like another thing going wrong.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Rather than an ordinary thing that goes wrong in ordinary people's lives all the time.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That and then you're in good company, you end up feeling like an outsider again.

CLIENT: Right. That's why I think it was good that I was thinking about it on the way here. I was like "What's the big fucking deal, I'm going to get some Mucinex and alright so we have practice, I'll just take it easy and I'm not going to go out afterwards for a beer I'm just going to hang out and have my coffee or tea, whatever, we'll play for an hour and I'll go home." Things tend to just become a big deal, you know what I mean? I just don't, I don't like that so I'm glad I was able to start seeing that maybe. [00:06:20]

THERAPIST: I also wonder if there's another layer of it, rather than it being something on the inside that you can hide, the fact that you can hear it in your voice or you were here on that Thursday having to blow your nose. There's something that feels more along lines of how you feel if I say you look sad. There's something you can see and then people know that you feel that way. It's like your feelings are apparent. Kelly will see that you feel lousy and feel tired and it feels like a weakness is being seen...

CLIENT: (coughs) Right. Yeah some of it is too that I'm going to be judged for...

THERAPIST: For what?

CLIENT: I don't know. Just being weak I guess, I mean it's ridiculous, I don't really know.

THERAPIST: Yeah but...

CLIENT: I mean it's not really...the fear is I'm judging myself, it's not...you know? It's nonsense. It's just me judging myself.

THERAPIST: Where did that judgment even come from in you that that would be?

CLIENT: Probably just family, you know. Remember I was telling you, my mom, they're always like "how'd you get a cold?" They always have that thing so maybe it's partly that or just the fact that they do nitpick. [00:07:39] My mom did, I had this pimple right here and my mom did it again, she was like, she didn't do it the way she used to do it but she was like "Honey you can put some vitamin E on that, it'll..." It's just they pick up on little things even if they're trying to help you, they're like "oh that sucks, you can put some..." Still it's like who cares, why are you even...They can't get away from that, you know, they did it to my uncle the other day. The guy came over, he looked like death warmed over, he just looked like a broken man, alright and that annoys me too. I don't understand how someone that's become so successful business wise can't take care of himself. I find that very odd, you know? My mom's like yelling at him and my grandmother of course is like "Sell your house, let's move to Assyria." She'll say random shit, you know, and I was like "just relax, you're not helping him by kind of scolding him. He's tired, he's exhausted, obviously he knows." But they just have this thing where...

THERAPIST: The message that, the implicit message that gets delivered in the scenarios you're describing is there's a way of making it perfect right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Instead of, kind of accepting?

CLIENT: That's it, yeah.

THERAPIST: What a normal thing that people would feel exhausted (inaudible) or have a pimple or have, you know, like these are normal parts of life that you don't, it isn't to make everything perfect, right? [00:09:19]

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, no it's very strange.

THERAPIST: Right? There's a fantasy still that you could erase all of that. Everything could be fixed somehow.

CLIENT: Right, right. It's very strange, yeah.

THERAPIST: So maybe you have that voice inside you when you start to get sick like "oh this is something going wrong with me, why did I do this to myself?"

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just their thing, like you're being singled out. Like the universe is singling you out for this flaw, you know? Now of course the other side of that, including my uncle, he's not like them, he's much more, my uncle's very mellow, he's like "I came here and I'm not complaining to you guys." And then again suddenly my mother's very healthy, like they just go back and forth. I was like "no, that's good, at least you're talking about it and you're not keeping it in, that's not healthy, it's good, blah blah blah." But even with my uncle who has a much better attitude it's still, he still has this thing where, I don't know if it's like a self-sacrificing thing or a martyring thing, you know what I mean? [00:10:27] It's just, it doesn't make sense. There's something whacky in the hard wiring, you know what I mean? People that do, it's not like my uncle's a billionaire but they're comfortable so how, I don't understand, like usually that's...Isn't that the point, when you get that comfortable of course you're stressed, he has all that shit going on but those are the people that will take a long lunch, they'll get a massage once a week, you know what I mean? Isn't that the point? Just like his wife dies, that's the amazing thing, his wife who's the head doctor of her fucking clinic, somehow finds the time. I don't know, with their side, even my uncle has a much better attitude, he's much more...I don't know what that is. I don't understand it. Staying up all hours of the night because he had to research zoning laws or whatever. It's like "did you really? That doesn't sound right? You're a big time business guy staying up until four in the morning?" I don't know...It's one thing if you do that once in a while but it's like every fucking time he's ironing the kids clothing, he's not sleeping. [00:11:56] So even in a way they're all different, they all have this similar pattern.

THERAPIST: You can watch him in a way play out the world being against him, you know, had to do this...

CLIENT: That's right. So yesterday his whole thing was all these workers, they just don't care. It's not their building, they don't care. So they dinged this and he's right. That is true but it's like, I mean, just is it that big...?" I even told him "uncle how about just finish the building and those minor things, just touch them up? Just be done with the whole thing. I'm not even a real estate developer. It just seems like a no-brainer to me, you just want to be done. That's always going to happen. There's going to be some painter who drips some paint on the floor. He was just so worked up about that. I was like "dude..." [00:12:58] Then my mom "it's sabotage!"

THERAPIST: (laughs) Oh no!

CLIENT: That's sabotage! "You have to be careful. These construction people, you know, they're not as educated and they're jealous because you're successful and...I don't know. Went on a tangent. It was hilarious which only in turn riles up my grandmother, you know? (pause)

THERAPIST: Everything is dire.

CLIENT: Yeah. Nothing is ever light hearted. And in the middle of all that they were talking, of course they were talking geo-politics, you know what I mean? There was that conversation then there was Turkey and NATO and Assyria and what's going on in Syria. It's like "dude, I don't know what to tell you. I care passionately about these things but I know enough to know that you can't, there's always going to be something in the world, there's always going to be, that can't be the main conversation. [00:14:19] So it's like they're burdening themselves with shit they have no control over. That's pointless. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's hard to imagine how you could not grow up with the feeling that the whole world is out to get you.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And that conversation, just is so apparent.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Everything gets treated that way.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm so grateful that I don't like, I'm glad I have my dad's side. I don't tell...I talked to Kelly last night "Yeah, I'm sick..." I didn't say anything, there's no reason to say anything. Yeah, I've got a cold, you know if I have the flu I would let her know that I have the flu but there's no reason. It's like they use, it's always a negativity that gets the banner headline, do you know what I mean? It's like "alright, you got a cold." That's not, if you're with people you care about that's what there is to talk about? It was ironic yesterday when my uncle, as he was going down the stairs, he was all hunched over, all fucked up and as he's walking I hear him say in Assyrian "How are you doing honey? Are you okay?"

THERAPIST: To you? [00:15:58]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's always and they tend to do this...they ask how I'm doing and somehow they remember I guess that "oh I just been talking about my..." It's very sweet but it's so ironic, it's like...

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah and what am I going to say? I was like "I'm good uncle, just juggling a lot of things." What am I going to say? It's just hilarious.

THERAPIST: So hilarious?

CLIENT: Well, I know it's not hilarious, but you know what I mean? It's just very ironic.

THERAPIST: Cause that's the thing. You do have your dad in you and he's an extreme in another direction where, at least what you've said about him, more stoic and never complaining, you know, tough and...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Some of that might be, I was thinking about that. Some of that might be my mythologizing him a little bit. I mean, it wasn't that he wasn't a talker it's just that he wouldn't dwell. If he had a cold "yep, I have a cold.": It was fine. It's not like he would keep things a secret per se, some things he might but he just didn't like things like that to be such topics of conversation. {00:17:33] You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. It still feels like you get these two very divergent ways of dealing with a minor problem and there isn't a lot of space in the middle for it being seen and noticed and having some empathy but it not being dire either.

CLIENT: On my dad's side there is.

THERAPIST: There is?

CLIENT: Like when I visit them, yeah it's totally normal.

THERAPIST: Like "I'm sorry you have a cold."

CLIENT: They'll say "I'm sorry" and then they'll be like, my 89 year old aunt will be like "have a cigarette, that'll take care of it." Like they have that hearty just kind of...and I don't think about it. When you're with family like that, you're like...

THERAPIST: It's not a big deal?

CLIENT: Also because I'm like that so it doesn't even cross my mind anymore, you know what I mean? [00:18:26] Then of course, things have a way of, you just feel better. It's weird how you just start feeling better. But when things are like "wait, you have a cold, alright I'm going to make you a yogurt and garlic and are you drinking lemon, are you eating oranges, are you..." Everything is like, that's sweet, yes you should do all those things but you're not an idiot. It's like it's not a big deal. They just have that, you know?"

THERAPIST: Just anxiety?

CLIENT: Yeah anxiety.

THERAPIST: I don't know if I'd call it...

CLIENT: You're the doctor, I don't know what you call it.

THERAPIST: It sounds frenetic, it's not just sweet and caretaking...

CLIENT: But I went to that family...Remember I told you I went to that family's house? I went with my mom? She'd make a big deal out of it but she kind of said something when we got there. She said, I didn't hear what she said I just heard their reaction. She said something like, I was wearing jeans, I had a collared shirt but I was wearing jeans. She must have said something cause they're like "who cares, the guys are wearing jeans." I don't know what she said but it was probably something like "oh we came kind of casual..." basically talking about me. [00:19:47] That's such an oddball, it's so odd, I don't think, they don't understand how odd that is. Who announces, I mean, talk about yourself I don't give a shit, but to speak up for a forty year old guy who looks perfectly fine, that's a deep level of something. I don't know what the fuck that is.

THERAPIST: There's so little recognition of you as a whole, separate person.

CLIENT: But see luckily, first of all I didn't care, it didn't bother me at all. I knew something that...I already told her in the car, I was like "I'm telling you, like try to fucking control yourself. Don't, when they ask me something don't fucking speak for me, don't get involved, don't interject shit."

THERAPIST: You said this (inaudible).

CLIENT: I had to. At this point I have to because it drives me insane and I told her "this is why I don't go with you anymore. Because you kind of tell white lies." She'll tell them things like "Yeah, he, it's kind of not like [inaudible]." She has this thing, she wants to feel, I don't know, I don't know what the fuck it is. I was like "Do you understand we're going to people's houses who are lovely, lovely people, very sweet people, but I can take fifty of them out of my pocket. I don't need, like do you understand how above them, even you are? Forget me, that you are? I don't mean above them like you're a better person, but intellectually, sophisticatedly, whatever, why would you think you're lesser?" She'll just think nothing but just to make a point to her that I have nothing to talk, we're going to talk about nonsense, they're going to have no idea what I do but I don't mind that, you mind that. I can sit there, I had whiskey with the older dudes, like in their sixties, I love that shit! I just want to hear their stupid fucking stories, they joke around, they say things that don't make any sense but I don't care. To me it's kind of like I'm hanging out with my dad, like these were my dad's friends. So it doesn't bother me but I'm also not going to feel like I need to impress anybody, you know? [00:22:10] She doesn't get that. She's such an intellectual, those Assyrian ladies, she could fucking wipe the floor with them with her knowledge, you know? Somehow, I don't know what it is.

THERAPIST: That's what's so funny about it, you can see that about her but she's very insecure.

CLIENT: Well when I say it she knows it. She'll be like "oh I know honey. I know, you're right, you're right."

THERAPIST: But she doesn't know it when she walks in.

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: She has to be apologizing...

CLIENT: Well she does and she doesn't. She apologizes but then if something comes up, some topic, she fucking throws down. She'll be like "Well actually no, in 1922 blah blah blah..." It's this weird schizo, it's as if she thinks their kids are somehow more, maybe she just can't handle that they're just more conventional and that's just what she wants. I don't know, I don't know what it is. (pause)

THERAPIST: She can throw down about herself but somehow you become a container for things to feel insecure about.

CLIENT: Somehow, yeah. It's a little better, like I overheard her at the table, she's like "You know it's not the only thing you guys? He's a really good song writer, he's a writer..." So you know, she's come around a little bit but yeah there's this, yeah...(pause) [00:23:44] I mean what matters to me is that is that it didn't bother me, you know, that's, you can't' change people after a certain age. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's a hard thing to open up, knowing more about, even when you're in a place in the present that doesn't bother you so much anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think it's a hard thing to know.

CLIENT: I think the problem now is that, now it bothers me in the sense that I'm embarrassed for her. Do you know what I mean? And she doesn't understand that stuff like that reflects on me in a way, like there's no reason not to just hold your head up high and just be who you are and she doesn't understand that that...There's a saying in Assyria (foreign), it's like, kind of like pitiful and on fire. Strange saying but...That you're just kind of like "oh, yeah, we didn't dress right..." It's just an awful, awful way, it's embarrassing not to mention it's a little bit immodest. Some people could take that as "why are you so?" I don't know if her friends do...

THERAPIST: Why you think we care?

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Why you think we care?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah like I don't know if some of her friends, I'm sure her lady friends, I'm sure, this whole...she's just...[00:25:15]

THERAPIST: It's another, like incredible expression, pitiful and on fire?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you live in this context?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I'll say something like "Mom, don't act, like there's no reason to act that way." Or Persian is another good one. It means like raggedy, not even raggedy, like just pitiful and raggedy and meek. There's no reason...It's funny that they have those sayings, it's interesting where they, like I wonder if that was a post-genocide thing that became more expressions that way or, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Really pitiful and on fire, it's like this captures this oxymoron of two parts of herself, her family's selves, about being sort of meek, insecure, (inaudible), but also the fieriness of being persecuted at the same time and angry and angry at the world.

CLIENT: Right, right, like bristling.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:26:28] And to have it be in the culture so much that it has that expression. I mean it's really pervasive.

CLIENT: Yeah it's very common. They'll even, I have noticed the older people, like my mom, they'll use it to describe all of us so when they are talking about politics "We Assyrians, we've always been..." so that's why Turkey and all these big powers can toy with us because we don't, we've never declared war, we've never committed, we've never instigated any awful violence in that part of the world. I do see the irony in that, in that part of the world that doesn't really work so it's a bit of a miracle that we even still exist but it's become a kind of mindset that we're like sheep and we just kind of...

THERAPIST: It's almost like a feeling, a cultural feeling of emasculation.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Not just men but...

CLIENT: No, no, no. Everybody.

THERAPIST: Widely (ph?)

CLIENT: We don't stand up for ourselves, how did all these things happen to us throughout history, we didn't have a strong army, why didn't we...whatever, I don't know. [00:27:44] They just constantly find ways to use that expression about Assyrians.

THERAPIST: Say it again.

CLIENT: (foreign)

THERAPIST: It's eastern Assyrian. I mean Western Assyrian but it's....Who is the Eastern Assyrian end? Although it's not really on fire, it's pitiful and fire, just an odd grammatical.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So you're not the only one feeling that way?

CLIENT: No. Nope. (pause) It's definitely cultural, like a collective insecurity unless you live in Assyria. And that's the other thing, it's like they have all these...it's like "Dude, do you think the people in Assyria are sitting around talking about this shit all day?" They live there, that's just...you know what I mean? There isn't this "what's going on in Assyria?" They are Assyrians, living in Assyria so they're just living their lives and that's very different. You see that when you meet Assyrians from Assyria. They don't fucking have these conversations because they're living it. There's no reason to talk about, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's the Western Assyrians because of the genocide and they were just driven all over the world and there's this longing and this like...complex. [00:29:43] (pause)

THERAPIST: It makes some sense around the feeling like I often get since we talk about this with words like douche or pathetic. It feels like that's kind of a groove inside you that burned really deeply that a lot of things end up falling into and being defined as, things that don't as an outsider, feel that pathetic or douchey or whatever that means. A lot gets poured in to that, like that's the fear of what you could be, what your mother could be, what Assyrians could be.

CLIENT: Yeah it's like extreme judgment.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like even you said that about blowing your nose "Oh you just don't do that, that's pathetic, you hide that stuff." You know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I know that's one extreme example but...

CLIENT: That's more just because I think it's gross, it grosses me out to do it in front of other people. But yes, you're right, I know what you mean. [00:30:50] Like to even give it that much thought is...

THERAPIST: Right. Everything gets sort of monitored for "is this pathetic or not?"

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like everything, I don't know if this is the right way to use it, but everything becomes like meta, do you know what I mean? Who thinks about blowing their nose? People just blow their nose. And I think that's the very thing that annoys me about it, which is the funny thing. Like if I'm at the coffee shop and the guy down the counter is just blowing his nose, there's something, I know he's not thinking, he's not doing it on purpose to annoy me, the guys got to blow his nose. It bothers me that it's not bothering him. There's something about that, that's like kind of gross and that people are able to do those kind of things without even a second thought. For some reason it just bothers me.

THERAPIST: There may be other layers to that too, about things that were done to you or in your family without thought or awareness.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's different.

CLIENT: Right. [00:32:03] (pause)

THERAPIST: But still I'm thinking about, we were talking about your feelings for Cecelia. I remember you saying they sometimes get so strong that you even think about writing a poem about it and then you immediately say "I don't want to be one of those douches."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: This is another moment where it feels like the second guessing of just your emotional life, like how even strong feelings can become something like "oh that's pathetic, I don't want to be one of those pathetic...", about a normal part of, you know, life, gets judged.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:33:55] [00:35:07] It's funny cause I've been wondering too if like, it's not the reason I'm sick but maybe this feeling of like finishing this record and moving on, you know, makes me feel somehow anxious or just something, I don't know. To have worked on something for so long, ridiculously long and now for it to just be done. I think there's something about that. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's a big deal?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I think deep down part of me tries to find ways to make it not a big deal or to feel like "oh, it's not really going to matter...." Do you know what I mean, like, that it's not going to be as good as I think it is or that...I don't know how to explain it. [00:36:34] (pause) I guess just the part that's very uncomfortable with things being completed and going well and going to some other level, you know what I mean? Out of the comfort zone of feeling like shit.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) [00:37:36] Tomorrow?

CLIENT: Okay, cool. Ten? Eleven?

THERAPIST: Eleven thirty, I'm pretty sure. (laughs)

CLIENT: Awesome. Thanks Tricia.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See you.

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