TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (sighs). How's it going? Nice. So I had this dream last night that I was with this little boy and we were going to like, we were at a like Sear's or Target or Wal-Mart, places like that and I have no idea who he was, his name, he had some long name. (coughs) He wanted me to call him Brandon and I bought him this rubber ball, it was black, kind of like you would use for stick ball and when I went to pay for it the woman was like, it was like $25.39 and I was like "That's clearly not right." It's like this weird thing, I had this whole exchange with the cashier and I just pulled out a five and was like "this is what I'm going to give you for this ball, there's no way it's more, it's probably a lot less. I'm going to give you five bucks." She was like "Yeah, I guess that's okay." It was weird; I'm just saying that because I don't want to forget. [00:01:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was very strange.

THERAPIST: It's so interesting.

CLIENT: Yeah it was a strange dream.

THERAPIST: Lots of detail.

CLIENT: Yeah and the kid had this long, Brandon, Eric, whatever, he had this long name just like a cute little white kid.

THERAPIST: Not an Armenian name? Is it?

CLIENT: I think even in the dream I was like, this is weird, why is this kid with me? And yet I wasn't super shocked, it was weird.

THERAPIST: Did you think he was like your kid in the dream?

CLIENT: No but it did feel like I was in charge of him, he was in my care or something.

THERAPIST: So what are your thoughts?

CLIENT: No idea. (pause) I mean it could be symbolic, maybe it's my CD, you know? It's my...

THERAPIST: Baby?

CLIENT: Yeah. Or the band. I was thinking, I went to practice yesterday because I wasn't going to fucking cancel it, because the drummer's been cancelling a lot, so it was on my mind. We talked about it after practice. I was like "You know what? I think I need to try out other drummer's. I need to take control, it's my band, it's my record." He's a good guy but something's not, something's off. He comes to practice and then he's out of there. [00:03:29] You know what it mean? So I don't think, it's not that he's not into it, I think he's probably just scattery, you know? I think when he's not at practice he doesn't think about this band at all because he's doing other projects and that's fine but it's not working. I just, he doesn't hang out with us, he's inscrutable, we can't figure this kid out at all. And that's saying a lot. I'm pretty fucking inscrutable and like I cannot figure him out at all. So maybe that was all in my mind...the CD coming out. (pause)

THERAPIST: So he's the kid?

CLIENT: I don't know what else it would be, I thought "Oh is it Kelly's kid?" But that doesn't make sense. Or is it like me, I'm with myself? Probably a combination of all those things. [00:04:44]

THERAPIST: I have this... your experience last night, remember you saying yesterday "I'm going to go even though I don't feel very well because I need to set the precedent, give them more to talk about with the drummer." It's you being the responsible, accountable adult and talking to someone who's not quite there doing that about that, or thinking about how to handle that and someone else...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You taking care of your own is part of yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, you know and I told the guys "it's not fair to you either, you guys have lives but you show up and you care, you look forward to this, you want, you're into it." It's not that Luke's not into he just a little bit like mercenary or something. Like he's like "So do we have any shows lined up?" I was like "Well, I'm working on it and tentatively..." He was like " So basically from now until then we're just working on new stuff?" It's like "Dude, we're a band." You show up and you practice. Like what are you trying to say?

THERAPIST: Does it feel more like it's a job for him? He shows up, does his thing and leaves?

CLIENT: Well how could it be? It's not like he's getting paid.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: That's what I don't get like if you're not into it then...I think that he's 24 and he really wants to do music as a living, so I think he's cast a wide net. [00:06:23] It's not that he doesn't like the songs, he likes the song, when we're playing he's into it. The problem is that's not enough in a way, like there's no forethought, he just shows up, we practice and there's no...

THERAPIST: There's no attachment to the band itself?

CLIENT: Yeah and I think we all feel that, it shows in his drumming. It's just that I think he's...it's not so much that it's a job but yeah it is a little bit like " I'm going to try all these different things and maybe one or two will pan out." And for all of us, we don't look at it that way.

THERAPIST: You're looking at it as "This is my band."

CLIENT: Yeah, and we look at it like "We just really enjoy this and if something happens that's great." I look at it as "This is just what I do." Whether I make a lot of money at it, I don't know but I will just continue to keep doing this. I think Luke maybe, he's 24, I don't know, maybe he doesn't have that. [00:07:32] (pause) But it was cool to, I mean my voice got shot but it was cool to play. I hadn't played with a fucking drummer in over a month so it sounded good for the most part. (coughs) (pause) [00:08:33]

THERAPIST: How are you feeling?

CLIENT: I don't know, it's weird. I guess I just have a shitty cold.

THERAPIST: It's a cold? You don't feel to...?

CLIENT: My nose isn't really that stuffed up, like I don't have a runny nose or anything, just fucking cough.

THERAPIST: Not as bad as last, like over the holidays?

CLIENT: I don't think so, don't think so. I was supposed to go out tonight but I don't think I am, I think I should just...I'd like to but then I know myself, I'll get restless later cause I've been home all day but I think I need to just kind of, it's not going to help.

THERAPIST: Take care of your body?

CLIENT: Yeah. And also I just don't want it to get worse and I don't want to get other people sick. (pause) [00:09:42]

THERAPIST: You said $27.39?

CLIENT: It was like $25 and something cents.

THERAPIST: Okay. Do you happen to know that number? Why that number?

CLIENT: I have no idea. It was very specific. I kind of didn't like that the ball was black, I wish it wasn't black.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It's like black and white aren't good colors to see in dreams they say.

THERAPIST: Who's they?

CLIENT: Well like superstitious people, you know? Yeah I don't know why I saw that, why it was that number, it was weird. (pause, coughs) [00:10:53]

THERAPIST: It made me think also, we were talking about the fee in here. You've been paying twenty dollars, we had been having the conversation about bumping things up five dollars.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And that number, specifically the number 25, was in here. And in the dream you're saying "No I'm going to pay five..." (laughs) (pause) [00:12:00]

CLIENT: (frequent coughing) Man I hate this. I haven't had a cough in years.

THERAPIST: I was going to say I don't remember your having a cough.

CLIENT: I hate it.

THERAPIST: Do you ever go to the doctor when you're sick?

CLIENT: When it's like this, no. It just, I think you can tell when it's, if I felt like I had a fever or if my body's all in pain...

THERAPIST: Then you'd go?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. I don't have a problem with going to the doctor, I actually thought about it today but I was like go and say what? I have a sore throat and a cough? I'm taking Mucinex, I don't know, I'm drinking tea, I'm doing all the stuff you're supposed to do. [00:13:21] (coughing) (pause)

THERAPIST: Just seeing a black ball, the pun in your dream of a black ball, keeping someone out...your drummer.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) Or that the ball is just like, the ball is the sadness, you know, that's why it's black. It's like the...(pause) It didn't seem like that in the dream but I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:14:26] Well the fact that it feels that way for you, the color black...

CLIENT: Yeah cause why would you buy a black ball for a little boy? (pause)

THERAPIST: Has it been hurtful at all to his kind of, the way you start to describe, he's got his hands in a lot of different things and he's just kind of feeling out his options, in a way remaining detached from any one of them. I can imagine there being more feelings to that, like you guys are all invested and he's not that invested?

CLIENT: Not really just because it's not like I consider, he doesn't' really even hang out with us.

THERAPIST: So he's not your friend?

CLIENT: Yeah, I haven't had a chance to really invest as a friend.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And also because I try to above, I don't want to be petty about it, I think he's into it. When he plays, he's into it, he's just not, you know? I don't take it personally. [00:15:50] (pause)

THERAPIST: I'm just wondering what the sadness is from and giving it (inaudible).

CLIENT: The what?

THERAPIST: Sadness with the black ball.

CLIENT: Oh, no I meant if the kid was me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. That just represents all these years of like carrying around this black ball, you know? (pause) [00:17:00] [00:18:01] It's weird when you're sick, it's like it goes hand in hand, like it's hard, it makes you more melancholy than you are because you're (coughs), you know what I mean? If I wasn't sick right now, I'd feel, you know, but because I'm sick it's making me like...

THERAPIST: I think that's what we were talking about yesterday, that the physical symptoms of whatever kind will bring you down, again it's not that it's not annoying for anybody but there's a feeling it takes on, there's more meaning to it being a dark place.

CLIENT: Isn't that like? Isn't it like that for a lot of people? When they're sick they don't feel more down or something?

THERAPIST: I don't think so actually.

CLIENT: Really? How interesting.

THERAPIST: I know people feel frustrated they can't, it's an obstacle to what they wanted to do that day or they might feel tired but it really does feel like it affects your mood, that black ball. It's a weight(ph?) Inside you. [00:19:21]

CLIENT: (coughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's almost like it moves you to a different self-state, like there's, you're pushed to some other, older part inside you, feeling this way rather than this being Brian who had a practice last night, finished his record, things were going well and he has a cold.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah that's true. (pause) I guess it's probably that, especially at this, I haven't had a cough in so long, maybe it just like reminds me of when I was a kid, you know, being all smothered and it becoming a big deal, you know what I mean? [00:20:23]

THERAPIST: What do you remember about it specifically?

CLIENT: (coughing) Just you know, like I said just too much attention being paid to like "Why are you sick, how did you get sick? It's because you left the house without a hat." Like everything is kind of either your fault or you're being singled out somehow. And then just non-stop remedies like rubbing vinegar on your chest, fucking honey, garlic, just non-stop...Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: The first part, it's like you get blamed for being sick?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: "How did you do this or how did this happen? It's because you didn't wear your hat..."

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: No wonder it feels dark then, it's like it's something you did wrong.

CLIENT: Right. [00:21:41] (pause)

THERAPIST: And then the remedies? How do they feel? Like what was it like for you?

CLIENT: (coughs) Sorry.

THERAPIST: It's okay.

CLIENT: I mean I'm sure a lot of that stuff helped but it's just smothering.

THERAPIST: It's too much?

CLIENT: Yeah. It was treated to much like a major crisis, you know what I mean, instead of like "I'll just sleep, just takes time, take this whatever.." but it was non-stop, kind of like, you know....[00:22:44] Now it could have been that they weren't making me feel that way but because I already felt that way, when I got sick it felt more like...you know what I mean? Maybe they weren't acting that much different than a lot of parents but because I already felt, they're already so judgmental or whatever, maybe when I was sick I felt more...

THERAPIST: It's hard to imagine that it was exactly the same as the average parent, the number of things you know about, little things feel like crazy and its so many different realms of life where the negative beings are churned and churned and churned and churned.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or the pathetic, the focus on every little sign that a person is pathetic and everything is interpreted that way. [00:23:53] Almost like this could be revealing your weakness or something.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Rather than your ordinariness, amongst other ordinary people.

CLIENT: You know it was even worse when they get sick, like when my mom gets sick, then it's all about melodrama. There's no, that's my pet peeve. Like I'm sick right now but I try to, they are all about the fucking melodrama, you know?

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Like they'll literally groan and moan and act all like "blah", you know? Just really, really, like, I can't even act it out cause I'll shoot myself. Just like really, I mean it's just ridiculous. Very self-pity.

THERAPIST: Woe is me?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:25:00] My mom would be like "Get me a glass of water." I don't mind getting her a glass of water but its like "dude, come on."

THERAPIST: It's the tone?

CLIENT: Yeah, the tone and the whole like, they ruin whatever I would want to do for her, she ruins it with that behavior. It's like, that's why I would want to do things for my dad because he didn't really ask me to do anything for him, you know? Or if he did, he never asked in that way. For them, they just want to be coddled and I don't know what the fuck they want but it's awful. They'll have a commentary, they'll be like "I was sick, there wasn't one person to bring me a glass of water."

THERAPIST: (laugh)

CLIENT: Yeah, they'll say shit like that. Its like "Dude, are you kidding me? Do you know how many millions of people?" (coughs) It's like what the fuck are you talking about, you know? [00:26:11] (pause) Coffee does make you cough more but...

THERAPIST: It's another whole realm where they're, she's so, kind of persecuted of [her own bubble herself]ph

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That even you can hear, I mean it makes it complicated for you I imagine to ask for help or complain in a way that's normal, like "Would you mind getting me a glass of water," as being a normal thing people do when they're sick.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: With her you've gone so in the opposite direction of steeling yourself off from being anything like her.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well also because I don't want to hear it. You know she's been asking me "How are you?" I'm like "I'm fine," you know? I don't want "oh, you're still sick? Blah blah, Alright I'm going to make blah blah." Just fucking alright, calm down. These things happen, its germs, whatever, its winter. [00:27:44] There's just not a normal, there isn't a normal reaction, it's just..

THERAPIST: Like "I'm sorry, anything I can do, what can I do?"

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. "Hope you feel better."

THERAPIST: "What can I do that would help you?" Actually help you, instead of what I think would help you.

CLIENT: Right, right. I mean I don't mind the thing that she does, they're all healthy things, I will drink and eat whatever, its fine. It's just if she was, if they were more like "I've made this thing, it's downstairs, if you want it, come get it, it might help you." It's like "just chill." Like it's not so...

THERAPIST: It's fraught. Everything is so fraught. So much worry too, just so much anxiety.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:28:54] My mom's is even worse, if you tell her it's that, then she gets angry. So it clearly is that, you know what I mean? She gets very defensive. (pause) Which is kind of odd for a woman, women are a little more, that's why she's so like my grandfather. I feel like women no matter what can be like "Yeah, you know, it's been hard, I'm depressed." But she'll say "Of course I'm depressed, look at what I've been dealing with." It's not that she doesn't accept it but she'll immediately cut it off at "look what I've had to deal with." So somehow she's a martyr and she's done all these things, instead of it being just something that she's probably had her whole life.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Or she cuts it off with a kind of "this is what any person would do, but of course I would feel different, there's a very reasonable explanation that is what would happen to every person." Which isn't true.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: It's not true.

CLIENT: Right, right and then she'll be like "I'm a tough lady, you don't see all the things I've put up with." That's sad, she just wants I guess, lots of recognition and validation for stuff she's gone through I guess, I don't know what that is but she'll always bring it back to that. [00:30:28] It's like "I'm not going to give that to you. If it was up to you I guess I would not go anywhere, not do anything," and just be my mom's Bambi (ph?), you know what I mean? Like I'm not going to feel bad for you. I'm alone too, I've told her that but it's come to, in the past I've been like "what the fuck, you don't think I'm alone? You got to move on with your life, you've got to fucking deal with it." Not to mention I told her a year or two after my dad died. "Get married, date, I don't give a shit." My dad's side, me, we were like "You're a young woman, but if you're going to choose all these years to be woe is me and play the victim, then it's up to you, it's not my problem." (pause) Here's a very specific example. On my dad's side, my first cousin, I'm the youngest first cousin on my dad's side, one of my first cousins, she's a girl, got to be like fifty, fifty-five now, I don't know. When I was little she was, I remember she got engaged or something, or even married maybe, I don't know. She was early twenties and from what I remember everyone really liked this guy, he was a really sweet guy. Guy took a nap one day and never woke up. He had some kind of hemorrhage or something, young guy. [00:32:18] Now if that was my mom's side and her trajectory would have gone very differently. I think. But because it was my dad's side, you know, when I see her now, she's still the woman I've always known, full of life, tough, very pleasant, very big-hearted, married an awesome, awesome guy who we all love and I think that, like that's from my dad's side of the family. (pause) Now of course she's different from my mom, she's more assimilated, there's other things but still, it's like you can't even go out to have coffee with somebody? No one's telling you to be dating the whole town but come on. [00:33:33] (pause) Sorry I'm doing that, it just feels nice.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) use it . Is it for me or for you?

CLIENT: It's the warmth. No it's just for me.

THERAPIST: It feels good?

CLIENT: The warmth feels nice.

THERAPIST: On your throat?

CLIENT: Yeah it just feels more soothing, yeah.

THERAPIST: Looks like you have one of those masks on.

CLIENT: Yeah, I saw an Asian lady yesterday...While a few of my friends will go to the doctor, I mean this is how bad it is...

THERAPIST: They're giving masks?

CLIENT: They're giving masks. I mean that was the other reason, I also don't want to go to the doctor because I don't want to get more sick.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean I think I'm fine, just you know, will take a couple days. [00:34:34]

THERAPIST: So, like you don't feel like it's something more serious?

CLIENT: No because I'm here, I'm talking, I'm not sweating, I'm not, I feel fine.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: I'm wearing red pants.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (pause) It's amazing like the more I think about it, what a profound, like, if you have these kind of issues with one of your parents or both your parents, what a fucking nightmare. And all these years, it's pretty much effected every single thing I've ever done. I don't want to be one of those people that blame my mother for everything but in this case it's kind of hard not to (laughs). And my dad, for certain things, and my dad. Like all the girls I've dated, all the, like there's no....(pause) [00:36:04]

THERAPIST: You get a taste today, it seems to me like you, in a more palpable way, about how terribly anxious she is about so many things.

CLIENT: Everything.

THERAPIST: And how could that not get inside you? Imagine being a two year old and you have a mother who's terribly anxious about so many things and meddling and smothering, that kind of sort of intrusive caretaking. How could you not start to feel worried about your own body, your own half, every little sign and symptom, for example, all the physical stuff that just feels like anxiety about ordinary body changes or ordinary sicknesses that she didn't treat as ordinary. You also get a taste more of her, but kind of narcissism is a label, but her difficulty owning who she is and how she gets riled up about things.

CLIENT: There's none. No, there's none. I mean she doesn't understand how she constantly turns everything to be about her. She just doesn't understand that. It's inevitable, I would say nine out of ten times, when it's me and her and other people, I'll be shooting her looks, like "Shut up, Tricia is telling a story." [00:37:46] "Don't make Tricia's story about you." It just drives me insane. It drives me fucking insane. She really is my, I mean, it's not that my grandfather made everything about him but he was so self-involved and so serious and so angry, anxious, just fucking, you know, tough, kind of bristling, I don't know, defensive, he's really, she's got that. (pause)

THERAPIST: And no capacity to take ownership of that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like one thing even if you're that way, but you can still say to yourself "Oh this is me and my anxiety, I get really anxious when stuff don't...don't let it worry you. It's my problem, not yours."

CLIENT: Once in a while she does do that but see the problem is she has changed a little bit over the last, you know?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But again it's like, that's great now, but for me it doesn't help the hardwiring that's...you know what I mean? Because yeah, she has changed, not completely, but I see a nice change, you know, but so what? It's not, it's neither here nor there at this point. (pause) [00:39:32]

THERAPIST: It doesn't undo the groove that's been burned inside you.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: You're actually helping her undo her groove.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly, yep. (pause) [00:40:48] [00:42:00] This is the hardest, that's the other thing that, it's very hard if you have that part of you that is melodramatic, that's so, you know what I mean? It's a tough one. (pause) You have to work very, very hard to undo that. (pause)

THERAPIST: That's the black ball she handed to you? It's like the only ball you have. It's there. (pause) [00:43:14] You also get so hard on yourself by being here, sometimes it feels like you want to immediately say "but I'm more like my dad."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That there's not a lot of room as there wasn't in her to say "Oh, this is in me and it's actually..." Just as you would have felt with her, it's not as bad if she can say "Oh, I'm so melodramatic sometimes." That's actually a huge difference then just living it without knowing that you're lying and how in a way could you not have upsided that in you and also a side of your family in you? [00:44:27] That's who we are, is parents get set up inside each person about how the world is. You watch a kid, two year old, fall down at the park and look to their parent to see how should I react to this? And if the parent is going "Ahh!" the kid bursts into tears. If the parent goes "Ah, you're alright, " the kid stands up and goes off and plays. Already the development of a child's emotional experiencing that "how should I react to what just happened?" They're looking and they literally watch the parents, you can see it all the time in little kids. They watch for "what is the reaction to this?" You would look at your mother, I'm sure even as an infant, and kids pick these things up and that's what you learn. You also learn different things from your father which is what could have been confusing to you, to put these two parts together and they're both parts of you. There's this other really tough, stoic, you know, maybe even to an extreme tough and stoic side.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:45:47] Yeah I think if you own up to it that, cause it's not necessarily that it's bad, its expressive, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. So if you know it's there you can kind of use it to your advantage in a way.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And then it can become part of the fabric of who you are, rather than the facts of the world, you know? It's like someone who's shy, if they're trying to convince their children they should, you know "it's scary out there, don't say anything, don't go near these people," paranoid about things. Its different then "This is the way I feel. How do you feel?"

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's just kind of feelings about things that aren't facts.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But her feelings were treated as facts. Her fears were treated as facts rather than as something she could talk about as her fears.

CLIENT: Right, right. (pause) [00:47:10]

THERAPIST: So Monday? Hope you feel better.

CLIENT: Thank you very much. Ten o'clock?

THERAPIST: Yeah and we'll have Monday and Thursday.

CLIENT: Monday and Thursday right? Cool, have a good weekend.

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