TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(inaudible background conversation)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: You got my message.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay. I'm so sorry.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, man. I've just been – I finally feel kind of better, but now I just feel like I have a cold, kind of. But it was fucking brutal. I just was so – and even now, I'm just tired. But anyways.

THERAPIST: Did you get on antibiotics?

CLIENT: No, because she said bronchitis is a virus.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: So she was like –

THERAPIST: It's just got to run its course.

CLIENT: Yeah, you got to just – and she's like, it seems like you've been pretty – I'm pretty on top of that kind of stuff. But she was like, yeah, you can't try to walk it off. You definitely have to just – [00:01:08]

THERAPIST: Rest.

CLIENT: Crash for a little while. But yeah – I haven't had bronchitis since I was fucking 11. It's crazy. I cannot believe how bad it is this year. Anyways, so yeah, I'm sorry. I just zoned out from everything.

THERAPIST: That's what I wondered is that I know you've even had to be out sick, or have missed, but you usually have called me recently.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The fact that you didn't call, I assumed –

CLIENT: I know, I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: I wonder what that's about.

CLIENT: I literally checked out from everything. I think I just shut down, kind of. I literally slept for a day or something. I just was – I don't know. I think I mentally kind of shut down, too. I just kind of –

THERAPIST: Did it cross your mind, or did you – was it –

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: – even on your mind? [00:01:56]

CLIENT: No, no, it was totally on my mind, but yeah. I mean, I owed you a phone call. There was a couple of other things, and I was – I don't know. I was just – I just couldn't. I just shut down.

THERAPIST: Why? Do you know?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just shut down. I just felt exhausted, and I just, I didn't even feel motivated to pick up the phone to – I don't know, it's kind of stupid.

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, you could be really so sick that you can't pick up the phone, but usually with bronchitis, it wouldn't be at that level that you couldn't just call and cancel something. So that's why I wonder if there was something –

CLIENT: Well, it wasn't physically –

THERAPIST: Emotional – yeah.

CLIENT: Like I said, that's why I'm saying I mentally shut down, too. I just kind of just – I don't know.

THERAPIST: It sounds like pulling back to being avoidant almost for a day or maybe more.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know if it was just a day?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, no def, that Monday, I just, I was on lockdown.

THERAPIST: And that's why – what would pull you there? Was being sick pulling you into – [00:02:58]

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I think it –

THERAPIST: – away?

CLIENT: Triggered it, but I think, yeah, I just felt exhausted so I think I felt mentally exhausted, too, so I think I just didn't want to just deal at all. For one day, I just didn't want to – I don't know. Yeah, and obviously I was physically able to make a phone call. But yeah, I just – I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: And it would take you a minute.

CLIENT: I know. I know. I know, it's stupid. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: No, no, no. I'm not saying this as I'm shaking my finger. It's just being interested in what it –

CLIENT: It is odd, yeah.

THERAPIST: There's some things, I was – felt better about just really being able to shut everything out?

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe like – I was thinking, because I did think about it, too, I was like, yeah, that is weird. I haven't done that –

THERAPIST: In a long time.

CLIENT: Yeah, in a very long time. I think it was also – maybe I felt so exhausted, and I was mentally exhausted too, that maybe just for one day, I just wanted to even take a break from that. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm–hmm.

CLIENT: Feeling like, oh, yeah, I'm in therapy, and maybe that's what it – I just wanted to not deal with any of that stuff. Work, nothing. Yeah, I don't know. [00:04:07]

THERAPIST: It's almost then like, shutting out your current reality.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not having to be in it for a day.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For some reason, I felt like I just somehow mentally, I just needed to be totally checked out.

THERAPIST: Because even once you make the phone call, you're back in reality, back reminded, oh, I'm not making the appointment. That, or what did I have to do at work today that I'm not going to be able to do?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, because I was also kind of bummed that I didn't come in. Like I said about being sick, I was – I mean, obviously I knew that I couldn't, but I still felt stupid, like, what the fuck? I just felt – it's just a pet peeve. I don't know. Being sick is a pet peeve of mine. And it's funny, too, out of all people, it's Kelly's pet peeve, too. She's been fighting stuff off and on, as well, being sick and we both – [00:05:02]

THERAPIST: Maybe giving it to each other?

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Giving it to each other?

CLIENT: Well, I think for her it's she works at a university. Her son, you know. And also she's like me, I think she just kind of tries to walk things off, but that's probably not the way to go.

THERAPIST: So that's important, too, that you'd feel stupid.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just felt like, ugh, I hate being sick, and hacking, coughing really bad, and just feeling shitty, and it's stopping me from doing things, and I've – yeah. I wasn't super angry at myself, but I was just kind of frustrated, bummed.

THERAPIST: The fact of frustrated turning into I feel stupid, it's like it's a defect, a personal defect somehow.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. [00:06:00]

THERAPIST: I think that's part of the making the phone call and announcing I am sick.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I can't come. I feel bad.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's just that thing I have about when you're sick, it's somehow... (pause)

THERAPIST: Did you imagine I would think it was something, have some feeling about it, or roll my eyes?

CLIENT: No, not roll your –

THERAPIST: Not believe you?

CLIENT: Oh, that I'm –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No, no. I didn't think – no, no. I just felt just annoyed with myself or the situation. Yeah. But (pause) yeah.

THERAPIST: For a day, you get to get away from those feelings then, in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah, just –

THERAPIST: By avoiding. [00:06:59]

CLIENT: I just shut everything out, yeah.

THERAPIST: But then they're there waiting for you when you get back.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Well, but in a way, yeah, that's one good thing about it was I didn't beat myself up too much, so then when I called you, I didn't – I was like, no, I feel bad, I should call. I didn't feel bad like I'm an idiot so much as – so that's better. I was like, look, for one day, I just – because it wasn't just about here, or whatever. I just totally shut everything out, and I was like, that happens sometimes. I just needed a totally mental health/coughing sick day or whatever. Oh, that's ironic to say I needed a mental health day, but you know what I mean. Just zoned out. But yeah. [00:07:57]

THERAPIST: Did you imagine me here waiting for you when the time comes and goes?

CLIENT: No, I don't think about – I mean the only thing I think is I just feel bad. She's waiting and I should've – with this kind of stuff, you always get annoyed because I wish I could've called for whatever for you, and then you're like – I don't know. Yeah, then I feel bad because you're waiting.

THERAPIST: Maybe you were mad.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Maybe you were mad.

CLIENT: About what?

THERAPIST: That it wasn't under 48 hours.

CLIENT: I wasn't mad. No, no. I really didn't think about it too much. That was the good thing about – this time felt very different than in the way in the past when I would just not show up. I just felt like you know what, I just feel wiped. I feel just – and (inaudible at 09:01).

And I do, I mean, there's so much going on, like the record. I definitely – when I stop to think about it, it's not – it's all – there's a lot of good stuff, but I definitely feel overwhelmed. And stressed/adrenaline, you know. Like with the record, I'm just barely – even with the fucking Kickstarter, I'm barely – I just have enough to get the record out. I don't even have enough to pay for the graphic design. I need someone to help me out with that. It's like it's just whatever. But anyway. But that's okay. I can still just get it done, so it's like all these little – I just feel there's a lot of good stuff, but I just feel kind of anxious and all over the place a little bit. [00:10:00]

I did, though, yesterday or the day – yesterday, finish my application to consolidate on my student loans. So I'm kind of psyched about that.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yep. Because the thing is, once I do that, I don't have any other bad debt, or there's nothing else on my credit, you know what I mean. It's all this bullshit, so once I do that and I get them to report to the credit bureau, I can just rebuild my credit. It really won't take that long really once – so that was good. I took care of that. I thought that's kind of a big deal. And it felt good because I was like, am I doing this right? I've got a shitload of loans. Do I have to put each one individually, or whatever? But then I called then and they were like, "No, once we have your account numbers and everything, we just go to the national blah, blah, blah, whatever, we see all your loans." [00:11:04]

Although that kind of made me feel stupid, too. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? This took me just a few hours. I mean, I could've done this years ago, but whatever. Anyway. At least I did it, and it felt good. (pause)

THERAPIST: That's why I think I – you were just asking about just making the one-minute phone call, is there a way it's something like your loans where when you finally do it, it's not so bad, and if you had done it before – there are things you talked about where you avoided them, but then once you actually do them, they're pretty darn easy.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And a breeze, and –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Did you ever feel like –

CLIENT: Yeah, that was – [00:11:59]

THERAPIST: (Overlapping voices) and then it would've been taken care of.

CLIENT: Yeah, that was part of it, too, yeah. Monday I did feel that, too. I was like, well, why am I not? It would just take a second to call Tricia. Why am I not? I don't know. That – yeah. Yeah, that did –

THERAPIST: Then I wondered if you were mad, or if there was something –

CLIENT: No. Nothing. There was absolutely nothing. I didn't return other people's – friends, there were two people, friends, I didn't – I just, I don't know. I just kind of just shut down. I wasn't even in a particularly awful mood. I was just sick, so I was just sleeping a lot and drinking soup, and watching The West Wing. I didn't really – but yeah, there was that small part of me. I was like, yeah, this is weird. I know it would just take a second to call Tricia. I don't understand why. But for whatever reason, I decided not to beat – I was like, you know what, I'm just not – I don't know. She'll understand. I don't know. (pause) [00:13:02]

Yeah, I think it's just definitely – well, today I've had three of these, so that's not a good idea, so I'm definitely a little amped up, but I definitely – there's just – I'm just having trouble adjusting to things being okay, I think. I still – like today, I was sitting there, I felt good, but I kept my laptop going and I just feel like my mind's racing. Even if it's good stuff, I just can't calm my mind. (pause) [00:14:00]

Even with Kelly, everything's great. I sent her a text in the morning. It's like, hey, how are you? I'm thinking of you, or whatever. She's trying to send me a text message like, "Hey, babe, I'm good," winky face, whatever. And for some reason, even that made me anxious. I was like, what would that – you know what I mean? It's so weird. I think I'm just hardwired to try to find some reason to be anxious. (pause)

It's as though if she doesn't send me a text, that's – we've talked about this. If she doesn't send me a text that's equally, word for word, somehow in my weird – I don't know what that formula is. It doesn't even make sense, but somehow it has to somehow in this irrational –

THERAPIST: Equivalent expression of showing feelings – [00:14:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, which – yeah. Which doesn't even make sense. I – what's the difference? I mean, yeah, mine was a little more wordy, but so what? She's at work. "Hey, babe, I'm good," winky face. What? That's – (laughing) I don't know. I'm always looking for something. Like my mom. (pause) I'm sorry. [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: (pause) Maybe not calling is a form of looking for something. It creates something instead of the ordinariness.

CLIENT: That's a good point. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Of just – it's kind of ordinary, you can't get to a doctor's appointment.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true.

THERAPIST: And then you call and cancel.

CLIENT: Yeah, it feeds into something to be anxious about.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's weird. I never thought about that. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Even though I've gotten so much better, but still, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And it doesn't – there may be moments when you pull back –

CLIENT: Yeah, there are moments. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: – to something that's familiar. I mean, that's what I'm imagining. If I were to make that phone call, I'd be feeling kind of anxious about it then for the rest of the day, a little bit –

CLIENT: Yeah, for no reason.

THERAPIST: – in the background.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where as if you made it, it's done.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's so weird.

THERAPIST: It's off your plate. [00:17:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, that is so weird. Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, that's all I could think. I didn't think about that then, but yeah, today, I was like, why? At first I was thinking, I said, why am I – everything's great. I went to a meeting at work. That feels good. I don't know. One way or the other, the record's going to come out within three weeks, I think. We're playing the record really – things are – you know what I mean? But so first, I was like, why am I not able to fucking concentrate right now on anything. Then with Kelly, I was like, what do I want the girl to say? She has to somehow match word for word? It's not about me, you know what I mean. Or what if in that moment actually, she's not good. Do you know what I mean? [00:18:00]

She's at work, and whatever, but that's her – she's not going to be like, well, actually, I'm kind of annoyed I'm at work, or whatever. I just hate that, that it's – I just – and that's when I was like, you know what, I'm just trying to find a way to be anxious. That's what's happening now. Other people wouldn't even think twice about that. They'd be like, hey, babe, what's up? Okay. Just... (pause)

I mean, I've gotten – and I try to remind myself, well, I've gotten way, way, way better, way better. I mean I'm so proud of how I'm handling this Kelly thing. Whether it works out or it doesn't, I'm not going to have anything to second guess so far. I don't – like yesterday, I think maybe we did text yesterday or whatever, but I'm just – it's at a good pace. I don't overdo anything. I really don't even over think anything too much. [00:19:01]

It's just once in a while, I get a little – but I do catch myself, luckily. That's a huge, huge, huge change, so that way it doesn't, you know. Again, I don't dwell on it the way I used to, but it's just something I've noticed, I seem to find a way to sometimes get a little anxious. I even get anxious when I'm going to see her. Instead of thinking of, well, it's so good right now. Instead of truly being excited to see her, I'm more anxious actually. Once I see her, we have a good time, but even then I'm like, I'm definitely internally monitoring, all right, is the sex good? Am I doing a good job, or how's the conversation? As if lone little thing, and I'm never going to see her again. [00:20:14]

THERAPIST: What it sounds like – I mean I hear you wanting to remind yourself, maybe remind me a lot that it's so different. I think we can take that as it's just a given to me –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When we're talking about it now, on the outside, all the actions you feel comfortable with.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: It's more just you're now looking at what's inside, even though you might be doing what everything you feel okay with on the outside. There may be different thoughts and feelings internally from time to time.

CLIENT: There's more push – not push and pull. There's more – it's like jumping. A lot of times I'm in sync with the way I'm behaving outwardly, but then suddenly, there'll be these moments where I just... [00:21:01]

THERAPIST: Which it sounds like wouldn't be apparent from the outside at all.

CLIENT: No. Not anymore, no.

THERAPIST: But you're still interesting in actually feeling better.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Inside yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I do. Because it has to be the case, right? There have to be people in the world to, like, hey, babe, and they just don't think about it. They literally – obviously.

THERAPIST: Oh, sure. Sure.

CLIENT: I just, I need to somehow get to a semblance of that. I mean, where I'm just not – and not just that, just in general where I'm just not – I mean, I know myself. I've accepted – I think part of it is also accepting who you are, and I'm an artist, whatever, and I just – my brain goes. But there's got to be a way to manage it a little bit better and have some more of a – some tranquil positive, or you're just not – where little, tiny, completely insignificant things aren't triggering irrational anxiety. (pause) [00:22:08]

And you know what bothers me too is, we've talked about it, I don't even – unless I really stop and I'm here and I really think, it doesn't even cross my mind to be like, this is a two-way street. I keep making it as if she's not giving this any thought, and she's just totally fine, whatever, and that some – you know what I mean? [00:23:06]

She's thinking about stuff, too. Like, does he care that I'm a little bit overweight, or it kind of sucks that we only see – she's mentioned it once or twice, that she's like, "I know we see each other once a week, and it's a little – it'd be fun to see each other more often," or whatever. "I want you to meet my kid," or should I do that now? You know what I mean? I make it sound – I always make it seem as if other people, not just romantically, but somehow other people just cruising along, and that's so bad because it disconnects you from – it puts all the pressure on you.

THERAPIST: It makes you very alone.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The outsider.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: As the only vulnerable person. [00:23:59]

CLIENT: And also it's a little selfish or a little narcissistic or whatever. And it's a way of putting yourself down, too, in a way. It's like as if other people are somehow better at this stuff. It's like everybody has their moments of anxiety or nervousness, or their trepidation. But for some reason, that doesn't console or appease. (pause)

THERAPIST: That's why I think I was wondering what if you thought or imagined what my experience was when you weren't here.

CLIENT: No, it didn't.

THERAPIST: When you didn't show up and didn't call. But it's a – that's a little moment of not imagining that Kelly's a person who would be vulnerable. [00:25:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And (inaudible at 25:06) meant it's morally – that I would be in this place of judging, that's it. You screwed up –

CLIENT: Yeah, generally, yeah, that's where my mind goes. That somehow it's either judging or just completely aloof, that I'm not –

THERAPIST: Indifferent or something like that.

CLIENT: – that I'm not important enough, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's so important that that's the assumption.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: That the – I mean the indifference –

CLIENT: Oh, to acknowledge that – yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't like it because it's – I mean deep down, I think that voice is there. I mean, I think that's why I then feel anxiety about it. I mean, yeah, because I didn't – it's not that I didn't think about it, but it wasn't at all really on the radar of like, well, yeah, I mean Tricia might worry, or she might – I think there's just this, well, I don't know what it is because I don't think about it, but I don't like it because it isn't very thoughtful. It's not – it's this weird, self-involved place that I don't like that. [00:26:22]

THERAPIST: Now it's interesting because it's self-involved –

CLIENT: And the weird thing though is I'm one of the most considerate – and I'm not saying this to be a dick –

THERAPIST: No, I know that about you. I know that about you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm oddly super considerate, but it's as if then the moment's where there might be real vulnerability, I guess, that's when I get more – you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. [00:26:57]

THERAPIST: So something about being sick and having to be out maybe felt more vulnerable than other times? So you pull back then and say, what's the difference?

CLIENT: Yeah. Or just it reminds me of all those old times when I would just not come. It's just like, yeah.

THERAPIST: But it's really different though.

CLIENT: But yeah, but I know it's for a different –

THERAPIST: You were genuinely, truly sick.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, yeah. No, I got – I definitely got that, but I think it just... (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, you get drawn somehow to that old place, and that place being – I mean, it's so strange that you say it's sort of like, eh, she'll get over it. It's like it doesn't matter that much to me.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like it only matters to you, not so much to me.

CLIENT: Or I'll think something like – or even if it matters, it's like a blip, and then I'll be like, whatever, and then it's like moving along. I guess, I mean I don't know. Like I said, it's not like in my conscious thought, but I'm sure that I must be subconsciously be thinking that people move on, and whatever, and they... (pause) [00:28:13]

THERAPIST: Maybe in that way, not calling actually might kind of enforce that it's not a blip. Then I have to think for a while, where is he? Is he coming? Is he coming?

CLIENT: Hm, maybe.

THERAPIST: So I have to think about it for longer, I wonder?

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe subconsciously, I don't know. I have no idea. (pause) For example, you know that website Etsy, or whatever? [00:29:06]

THERAPIST: It sounds familiar.

CLIENT: Yeah, there's this really cool Web site that you can buy vintage shoes, and –

THERAPIST: Oh, uh-huh.

CLIENT: And just stuff, really cool stuff. So I went on there, and there were all these shoes that I wanted to buy Kelly. So I bought her a pair of these shoes, right. They're like these red, kind of 1950s or 60s pumps with this design thing on them, I don't know. But even that, I'm like, is she really going to like – what if she doesn't love them? What if she – you know what I mean? What the fuck am I talking about? I bought her shoes. We can just joke about it. I can be like, yeah, I saw these online. They looked pretty cool. I don't know in real life what you – who the fuck gives a shit? That's a really thoughtful thing to do for someone. A lot of boyfriends don't buy shoes online for their girlfriend, but even that, it's like somehow things hinge on that, on these things. [00:30:12]

THERAPIST: It all has a feel of people being interested or loving you, or thinking about you, or feeling like you matter to them is really conditional, and that at a moment's notice, somebody could do one thing and it's done. It just makes me wonder more about – we know, of course, your father and this son that isn't bad (ph) is something that's dramatically different and done, but it feels like there's something much earlier about relationships. Loving – being there and not being there like your parents. [00:30:58]

CLIENT: Can I ask you something that's related but unrelated? We've never fully talked about this but I'm pretty sure that in terms of if there was a diagnosis or whatever, one of the things kind of would be PTSD, right, for me?

THERAPIST: Why do you ask?

CLIENT: I don't know why I'm asking. It's been on my mind. For some reason, I don't know if I saw something about Iraq, or – oh, no, this thing about soldiers, so many suicides in the army and all that, and I was thinking about it. And I was like, it'd be kind of helpful just because it's some – there has got to be some element to that. All those deaths, all those – to go from being a really shy, sensitive kid to all these incredibly tragic – there's got to be something that – because what happens is when I think about that, then I think of memories, like being out – remember I always had these memories, like they're there but they're not there. And I know that that was me, but it just seems so surreal. [00:32:01]

That seems to me like those are PTSD-type things where I clearly was not – I was thinking the other day about my American Express, and how I used American Express in L.A., like completely no thought. I don't even remember what my thoughts were, do you know what I mean? I would just take cash advances. I was broke. I didn't know what I was doing, but I wouldn't make any effort to try to pay it back, or to – I just don't know what was – I never thought like, well, maybe I should get a job at a bar, or just any kind of job. There was something – I was so frozen and paralyzed, that's got to be something – that can't just be just some kind of clinical depression. I feel like something that's much more severe. What I've dealt with, I think, is – and I'm not trying to say that because I want a label, but it kind of helpful to just – I don't know. I just find it helpful a little bit to be like, you know what, the severity of this is profound. If I stopped to – if I was just sitting in a bar articulating all these stories, it's beyond unusual. It's really fucked up. [00:33:18]

THERAPIST: The more you talk about it, there become more and more layers of different kinds of trauma. And the only reason I hesitate is it's – if you're asking about the specifics of the diagnosis, it has to include the things like having flashbacks, or constant nightmares about an experience, avoidance of things that remind you of a specific traumatic experience. But –

CLIENT: There's a lot of overlap, yeah. For all those years, like even now, I mean now I'm so much better, but not wanting to hear anything about heart attacks.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Not wanting to say that –

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: Seeing bizarre dreams. [00:33:59]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: All those times when I would see dreams where I couldn't wake up. Night terrors or whatever those are called. But at night – they're not nightmares but like –

THERAPIST: Yes, night terrors.

CLIENT: Night terrors. So yeah, just – I don't know. I don't know. For some reason I was like, you know what, I think that would just make me feel – I'm not trying to force it, I just – it would somehow make me feel like there's some kind of – it's so fucking chaotic and insane that it just would be a little bit helpful to be like, okay, you know what? It's not exactly – I mean I wasn't a veteran in Nam or something, but it's like it gives me something to hang my hat on and be like, all right, this is kind of pretty much what happened to me. [00:34:51]

THERAPIST: Yeah. And you've been traumatized, Brian. And I think, in different ways, beginning with things that you wonder about. I mean, maybe, not even beginning, maybe things before then, but from sexual experiences as a boy to your father's death, to even the layers of being ostracized or the outsider. Your mother, the not favored sister, within the family, the political, extreme contentiousness that leads you getting kicked out of the house sometime. Multiple deaths.

CLIENT: Picking up and moving, being so close to my family, being the first one born in the country.

THERAPIST: Ripped from your roots.

CLIENT: And going to North Carolina where I don't know who I am, and suddenly, there's no thought of you're Assyrian, or whatever, but then you move and then you have to think about that because people are looking at you funny, and treating you funny, and being alone, and all that shit about not going to school, kicking and screaming, and yeah, it's just all this fucked up shit. Yeah, it all just feels traumatic to me. It's just very strange. [00:36:03]

THERAPIST: It feels new to me for you to let it in as that, to know it as that. I say that because I think there have been times I've said, "Holy cow, that's unbelievable what you've endured."

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: And you kind of, well, well, a lot of people go through this.

CLIENT: Yeah, you're right. No. Not anymore. (Laughing) No. I think it's because I feel so much better now that I can have some perspective and not feel so uncomfortable or like a loser, or so angry.

THERAPIST: It's actually not your fault what's happened.

CLIENT: Yeah, no. And now I can now take some ownership and feel kind of proud because when I tell the story, it's like a lot of people would not – I'm doing pretty fucking well for – I mean, I'm incredibly well adjusted considering. [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) I remember you were just talking about kids being cruel when you were in North Carolina. At times, you had several stories you told me of them throwing rocks at you at one point.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: And saying – I mean my jaw was dropping with – that is trauma. That is trauma. And as soon as I said that, you're like, eh, well, not really. So there's something, maybe something feels different now, like there's some space to know that in a different way.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think it's partly – well, it's obviously coming here. I think lately, it might be Cecelia, too. There's something about that critter, like I love her so much. It's crazy, and she's so pure and loving. [00:38:04]

Like last night, I literally couldn't sleep because I could not believe – she's right here curled up. I've got my arm around her, and she's snoring kind of, like purring snoring, and I'm like what the fuck is going on here? This living creature with so much love in herself, and she kind of stretches and makes sure I'm there. She puts her paws on me and stuff. I think there's something about that that's like, wow. Human beings are fucked up. There's something about the purity and innocence of a critter like that that – I don't know. You feel like, wow, humans are flawed, and we fuck each other up so bad. I mean, I don't know. I'm just – maybe it's not that, but I feel like that – obviously coming here, but there's something, too, about that connection that I've never had. [00:39:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like you can simultaneously as you start to feel – you described it as unconditional love with her. A more unconditional loving back, loving (overlapping voices) –

CLIENT: I've never loved any living thing the way I love this cat. I mean, it sounds crazy, but...

THERAPIST: So as that starts to come alive, it's real and it also carries with it knowing how much you haven't had that. So it's both terribly happy tears and sad tears at the same time. When you say about humanity and how often those (overlapping voices) – [00:40:04]

CLIENT: Well, it's like all those quotes that people throughout the ages – you're not a full human being until you've really loved an animal or something like that. It makes perfect sense. It's just...

THERAPIST: She even snores and you love her.

CLIENT: Yeah, because of these cute little cat purr snores, whatever. It's not even snores, but just even her breathing, the fact that she's just a breathing creature, it's like what the fuck? This is so weird. I just can't get over it.

THERAPIST: Something about her you're saying as being alive.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like this living thing?

CLIENT: It's nature. It's like unadulterated nature. There's no affectation to her. She's a critter. She just needs me for food and water and love. And that's insane. So when you look in her eyes, it's pure nature. There's no – it's just an amazing thing. [00:41:11]

THERAPIST: Maybe humans aren't so far off.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: I said and maybe humans aren't so far off in their needs.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's as if we've diverged from the fact that that's what we are, but we've kind of gotten derailed.

THERAPIST: Or hurt and abused.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right, right.

THERAPIST: And then a little these self-protections build up. That lead us to hurt and abuse. (pause) [00:42:02]

It could also be in the what gets played out with calling and not calling, deciding not to call, it's like there's some testing or trying to reaffirm am I like Cecelia or am I like your mother, or is there something unconditional or is it conditional here? Would I be mad.

CLIENT: Maybe on some – I don't know if it's that far, but maybe.

THERAPIST: I know I'm stretching it beyond what you're consciously saying, but when you're returning to the old, I think that's a piece of it. It's like returning to the assumption that you're alone, and it's conditional everywhere. And one thing you do, you're out of there. [00:43:03]

CLIENT: Right. (pause) Not to get off-track, but I got something in the mail from my insurance that we have until March or something.

THERAPIST: Yes, I called to try to see if I could get another – see what they would do, assuming they wouldn't, and oddly enough, they allowed another 13 sessions. (Laughing)

CLIENT: What do you mean? After March?

THERAPIST: No, from between – it was supposed to end in January.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Was the end of your sessions that – your insurance has been paying one session a week, and that was going to end in January, so I called and did another review. They said, and I was really (inaudible at 43:59) they said no, and then they called me an hour later and said they changed their minds and they were going to approve 13 more. (Laughing) [00:44:03]

CLIENT: Wow.

THERAPIST: Which is unheard of at this point. I mean you're sort of at the end of the rope with that, so I'm –

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I've had really good luck with this whole thing, yeah.

THERAPIST: This is, for this insurance company, this is unheard of.

CLIENT: Okay, all right. So what will happen in March?

THERAPIST: So at that point, they're calling this another – the 13 sessions for you to transition to another –

CLIENT: Right, that's what it says.

THERAPIST: Isn't that the language?

CLIENT: Yeah. They're like, someone in our whatever network.

THERAPIST: Yeah, so it's the same thing we went through once before where they – remember they gave you the 13 sessions initially?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And then we did the appeal and actually got three to four months of sessions approved. So they've granted again 13 sessions for you to transition out at this point, so I just said okay, and I don't think he's going to do that. But at that point, I will try to appeal it again. Because I couldn't – I was shocked that they even approved these 13 sessions, I think it's highly unlikely they would do that. [00:44:59]

CLIENT: Right, right. So then at that point, we'd be meeting twice a week?

THERAPIST: No, at that point, we'll – I mean, I said I can continue this through the end of next year, even without the insurance reimbursement because we're doing the research.

CLIENT: Oh, okay.

THERAPIST: After that, I don't know that I could do it.

CLIENT: We'd have to –

THERAPIST: We would have to see.

CLIENT: Talk about it, yeah.

THERAPIST: Even, I mean, if you're – I assume your company isn't doing anything with your insurance, because that also would pay for things in a very different way. You could even lower your copay if you ever got on an independent Blue Cross plan or something, or if they changed a PPO, that's another way to continue.

CLIENT: Oh, okay, so it's not like suddenly everything will be different after March. Okay.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: All right, I just wasn't sure, so okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Through to next, a week – a year from this summer, we can continue as is through the –

CLIENT: All right, cool. That's awesome.

THERAPIST: Research.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So we're not meeting Monday. [00:45:59]

CLIENT: Oh, okay.

THERAPIST: Friday and Monday.

CLIENT: Oh, we're not meeting tomorrow and Monday.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yes.

CLIENT: Oh, dammit. I would've brought a check, I'm sorry. I totally forgot.

THERAPIST: You can bring it next week. That's fine.

CLIENT: Okay, okay. So we're meeting Thursday?

THERAPIST: Yes. I was just going to say if – yeah, no, I think I don't have any on Tuesday. Yeah, so we have Thursday, Friday next week.

CLIENT: So next Thursday –

THERAPIST: Next Thursday and Friday.

CLIENT: At 12:50. Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, mm–hmm.

CLIENT: All right, Tricia. Thanks a lot. Have a good long weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. You, too. You, too.

CLIENT: See you.

END TRANSCRIPT