TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Remind me never to go to a work meeting with a bunch of women. (whispered) Shut the fuck up.

THERAPIST: Those darn women.

CLIENT: Damn women. Our boss is she's just a shut the fuck up. It's like the meeting was over within 10 minutes. They were like gossiping and that's kind of like not professional. The owner of the school gossiping about her employees which we all are. Anyway. [00:00:23]

THERAPIST: It's not that comfortable.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:00:35]

CLIENT: No. She's really a weird lady. She's kind of not very cool, but she also is not, in a weird way, not stingy. I can't complain about my job. So, (sniffs) (whispers) anyway. How are you?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Good. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Inaudible) [00:00:57]

CLIENT: It's kind of nice out though.

THERAPIST: It's been hot in here. I'm turning this up. (ph) [00:01:05]

CLIENT: Uh huh.

THERAPIST: I don't know what it's like outside.

CLIENT: Yeah. Is that okay?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (Deep breath) (rhythmic thumping) Whew, so. Kind of a big development.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: The other day I sent out my poems, or some poems to like 10 journals. Yeah. It was pretty cool. And I was just laughing the whole time in a kind of tragicomic way. Like ‘are you kidding me?' This has taken me five seconds. I have a little spread sheet, everything. But, I-then I wrote to Jason which felt good.

THERAPIST: First time in a while.

CLIENT: Yeah. A long time. I sent him some of the new poems that I've been really happy with. Told him what I was up to. (Pause) (Deep breath). [00:01:57 (yawn) [00:02:12]. I still have some crazy, fucking dreams, again. Dreamed I was in Italy for some reason and I didn't have enough,, exact change for the bus. It was beautiful.

THERAPIST: That's all it was?

CLIENT: That's what I remember. Yeah. And there's some lady or girl on the bus trying to help me? Then I ended up in some kind of maybe hostel, something like that? But there was nothing particularly, I don't know, it was just nothing particularly memorable about the dream other than some parts were very pretty. I was walking on one of the aqueducts or something. It was really weird. (Sniff).

THERAPIST: You were by yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I was by myself and then there was this lady who was very helpful but then I think at the youth hostel I saw my friend, and old friend of mine who recently started to talk more often. It is one of those friendships where we don't talk for a long time but when we talk or see each other it's like we just pick up where we left off. It's great. But lately we've been talking a little more often so maybe because of that, I don't know, but ... (Sniff) (Pause) [00:03:40 [00:03:48]

THERAPIST: How does the (inaudible) turn out? (Cross talk) Given your dream.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. That part was very specific. I had four quarters and I was like, ‘this isn't going to work.'

THERAPIST: In America it would.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it's weird like I remember, and they were the tail side. I don't know why that was, like they were all tails. But, I was (audible) there's something at work here. How much, like ya know. And, the friend, he, I don't know how that resolved, but I don't know how I got off the bus or what I did, but I did somehow. I think she got off before me but I think it was something like, ‘I talked to the driver' or something like that, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Smoothed the way or something.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Smoothed the way.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: For you to get a ride.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And then in the dream sometimes I was confused as if, ‘wait, am I, where am I? Is this Berlin? Or parts of it looks like I know it was Italy, but then there were parts where I was like, ‘what?' That's so weird in dreams. I don't know what that is. Like where, I've had dreams like that before where like there's this city and I guess this must be, I guess like the more you travel or something, this kind of stuff happens, but in the dream it seemed kind of familiar as though I kind of knew but I didn't and in the dream I was thinking that. Yeah, it's so strange. (Sniff) (Pause). Yes, so I don't know what happened. Maybe like (sniff) the last few times was coming here maybe helped. I don't know what happened but I'm sleeping better, not having as much trouble waking up. I somehow feel more energetic? I don't, I don't get it, but ... (Sniff) [00:05:20 [00:05:32]

THERAPIST: (Pause) Because the lady who is helping you. [00:05:58 [00:06:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. That's right. [00:06:07 [00:06:12]

THERAPIST: You had a dream a week or so ago about-were you on a ship?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Coming up to the port and there was a city (cross talk) ... you've had other dreams about it.

CLIENT: That's right it was about (cross talk).

THERAPIST: City (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know what that's all about. Isn't that weird. I don't know what that's all about. That's a new thing for me. Yeah. A very attractive, like cosmopolitan

THERAPIST: You said that about that dream, too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you were, it was beautiful.

CLIENT: It was, but it looked great.

THERAPIST: Un huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, and there was some black dude that was helping me out. But that one was realistic, it was like as if he was waiting for me and he was like, yeah, you know, it was something like, ‘I'm sure we'll find something for you to do' or yeah, I just remembered I didn't have shoes on or something. I didn't have any money. Strange. (Taps out a rhythm).

THERAPIST: They're both stories of being in strange places but, and being maybe without your (inaudible) but being helped and it's okay. [00:07:12]

CLIENT: But even before the help not feeling, like feeling ok, but, when it was before I asked the lady what was going on with it I wasn't like freaking out, ‘oh my god, what the fuck am I doing. I was just sitting there like, ‘I don't know, I've got to figure this out. Like I don't have any money, so, and I've got the wrong currency, so. [00:07:33 [00:07:37]

THERAPIST: Almost like tolerating more uncertainty and strangeness ...

CLIENT: And in a weird way like feeling at home. You know? That's the thing about it, like I have snippets of memories of some, maybe this dream was there, too, but where somehow be in a city situation, that's both familiar and completely not familiar. But, you know. Holy shit! I just remembered another part of this dream last night. Completely unrelated. I was at as place that was kind of like an Ivy League. And I was trying to take an exam and, but it was like, ‘well, but I've never been to this class. How am I going to, and I felt completely-and then at the end-oh, then the exam kept changing like I kept trying to take up the exam but I'd look at it, but no that's not the piece of paper I just had. And then finally either the professor or the TA was like, ‘do you know your average in this class?' And I was like, ‘I don't know.' It was like, don't, you probably shouldn't bother, it was like you have a D minus, like this exam is not going to make a difference. Something like that. (Chuckles) Like the funny thing was I didn't really feel (laughs) dejected particularly, I just kind of left. (laughs). It was strange. (Sniff) And I think I got on the elevator and there was something like some like pompous professor or something on there and I think like we joked around with each other or something. It was very strange. (Pause) [00:09:13 00:09:25]

THERAPIST: This was just last night?

CLIENT: Yeah. All the same, yeah. There was no connection, but I mean, maybe because I e-mailed Jason, you know? I didn't bring up the peh (ph) you know, I don't know what's going on with that or what he thinks about that, you know. I did notice, you know, he no longer has his University e-mail. So I think he's like retired. He's done. Which makes sense. He's like 60, at this point just about 64 or 65.

THERAPIST: Still young for retirement (inaudible) [00:10:02]

CLIENT: In Europe it's very different. In Europe you're almost forced. Yeah, it's not easy, it's just emeritus or whatever. They don't like that like you've gotta go. Yeah. As a matter of fact I think when I went back in 2010 that was already, had become an issue because I think once you turn like 62 or 63 they start trying to get you out so he had somehow stayed on an extra two years, whatever. (Rhythmic beats) (Hums) [00:10:37[00:11:13]

You know, see, it's like it must be like, see this is what I'm noticing, even when I'm not like feeling good, I feel like anxious and antsy. And a little bit unset, not unsettled what's the word? disoriented. You know. That's the blast, like that's, and what ends up happening is I'm well, so I'm not really relaxed, like even when I'm doing well, I'm not, I am and I'm not. And I'm sure here it happens much more, is highlighted, you know what I mean? But ... [00:11:53 [00:12:02]

Or, maybe, I mean I am doing a lot of things and that's how you feel when you're doing a lot of things. I think if all I had was this job, wha, I mean, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

CLIENT: I think some of it I'm realizing more and more and more, I'm just someone that's, I mean, I'm, I'm mentally intense. You know what I mean? And I'm, I take on a lot of big projects and things like that, yeah, so, no shit. Like, you know, I'm not exactly [00:12:32 [00:12:37]

THERAPIST: You're just now beginning to believe it.

CLIENT: I'm sorry ...

THERAPIST: You're day's not over when you leave your job.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like moving into other realms of work.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I also think you are picking up on something. You keep coming back to in here. It may even be highlighted when you're here. In here. Is a feeling there's something, there is something that sounds like it's more than just being busy.

CLIENT: Yeah, no definitely.

THERAPIST: That feels like unsettled or agitated, a little disoriented.

CLIENT: Probably not so much agitated because that's yeah, it's more like antsy and a little disoriented and then something like day to day, like today sometimes like feeling like excess energy or it's weird, like either I can't get out of bed or I feel like kind of restless energy or something. [00:13:37 [00:13:49] And see, and that's why the ADD thing that pops up, too, ‘cause I'm like, ‘well probably if I was more focused and feeling like I was getting just a little bit more done I don't know if I'd feel this way as much. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I do and I don't.

CLIENT: I don't either.

THERAPIST: I get that theory.

CLIENT: But I just feel like there's so much going on? I bet you if I was just vomiting this shit onto paper that that would do something at the least. Do you know what I mean?

And the reason I say that is because like even sending shit out to journals made me feel better. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, and that's not even writing anything. You know. So. (Sigh). You know. [00:14:35]

THERAPIST: It did make you feel better to send it out.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: Did it make you feel more antsy?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying. And now I feel like this access, I think it's like all of the same thing. It's like sending out that stuff is only one step away from actually writing the stuff. So I think there is something in me that's like, ‘yeah, see, that's it, like now I've actually-instead of thinking it up here and making yourself anxious, just try writing it.' It's the same with mu-we practiced last night, I don't feel anxious when I play mu-it's not even anywhere near my thinking. I just get lost in the music and I'm just loving it. That's because you're actually doing instead of thinking about doing. So. [00:15:25 [00:15:29]

THERAPIST: See, that's what I was wondering a little bit. The way you describe music and the idea of just being in it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then I think that's what's hard to capture for you in most of the rest of your waking like. That takes different forms but you've described it even with Kelly for example where instead of just enjoying the evening with her ...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ... there are times you could be constantly outside yourself monitoring-is the sex good? Is she having fun? Is she, is this conversation okay? That isn't about being just in it, just being yourself in it and not thinking about it, just doing it, doing the evening.

CLIENT: Although that, that's gotten like 90 percent better after we had our, like, this past weekend was so awesome, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah,

CLIENT: I think I was doing that because it feels like I'm not going to go to where I was with Samantha or these other chi-like I want to-so maybe in this case that was a little more healthy than not. But, yeah I know what you mean. Yeah I do have this, you know. I'm getting way better at it.

THERAPIST: Totally, totally.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Better enough now that you can put it into words. And that says something to even just be able to talk about it.

CLIENT: I'm better at it enough that there are times when I don't do it. Oh, like remember that chick I said who initially I had a date with, but then I was going to tell her that-yeah, so I met with her. And it was awesome. She's really, like that's the kind of like, and the cool thing was that we were both like, you know, we need, we're trying to make some more different friends but we're like real friends, not just people we drink with or acquaintances or whatever. But the thing was, I was, the only thing I did notice outside of me, was that, I was like, ‘wow, I'm meeting this stranger in a crowded public place having coffee and I don't feel, I'm very comfortable, I'm not trying to impress her, I'm not, you know. So.

THERAPIST: So, I mean in a way you're speaking that there (inaudible) that have actually changed quite dramatically and you are finding more comfort. The (inaudible) layers of (cross talk) [00:17:44] and [00:17:51]

CLIENT: It's when I'm alone.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Actually now it's-last night after practice we went to the bar. I ran into a guy I know who bartends at a different bar. That could have been, if I was in a different place-like you're seeing someone all of a sudden in a bar and it's noisy, you know what I mean? Like, those are the moments I suddenly have these like slight anxious, whacky (ph) feelings. It was totally fine. I was totally comfortable. Whatever. It's more when I'm alone, you now, which I think happens anyway to people when they're alone. Obviously, they are more in their head, but also in my case it's because I'm alone and I'm not really being productive. And that's not always bad. I've gotten-you know it's good to just chill out and whatever. But, I'm a different kind of person. I have different kinds of standards of what I want to do that involves working a little harder. So. [00:18:14]

Pause [00:18:51 [00:19:04]

CLIENT: It might even be like just now-earlier in the morning I had time to kill so I went to the book store, yeah, and do you know the writer, W.G. Sebold, or Sebald, I don't know how you say it, he's German.

THERAPIST: Sebald sounds familiar.

CLIENT: Yeah, he wrote the book called "Austerlitz".

THERAPIST: Oh, yes.

CLIENT: Yep. So I'd read that some years ago and I saw it and it was like, ‘you know what? This guy's a monster of literature and this guy can fucking write. So, it was like, ‘let me take a look.' So I bought it. Could it even be that that triggered this because he's so like, there are no fucking paragraphs and there's just this amazing-and I was flipping, reading it and just remembering how amazing it is? And, you know what I mean? Like as long as that can trigger, ‘cause then when my voice is like, ‘dude, I just like-see? You can do this. You know you can do this. Just fucking sit down and you know.

THERAPIST: So, do you mean like it would trigger you, like, inspirationally trigger or trigger your anxiety about why am I not doing this in self-criticism?

CLIENT: Both. Both.

THERAPIST: Humph.

CLIENT: And that's, the self-criticism isn't so bad anymore. Now, it's more like, it's like a gentle ribbing. You know, it's like, ‘c'mon man, you know you can do this.' Like, what's, you know. But, it's still anxiety provoking.

THERAPIST: So, what's stopping you?

CLIENT: I do not have any fucking clue.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: I don't know. I still have no idea what that's all about. That's the million dollar question. That's what I'm saying. Like ADD, like I'm not lazy, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: It's not just ADD.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: It's not. ‘Cause it's been changing (inaudible). Even the fact that you sent poems out. That's all fell within all these kinds of things you have not done for a very long time. [00:20:51]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Suddenly giving this read, this talk and I'm doing another reading. I said yes to that other one, by the way, too. So, yeah, I, maybe it is getting better. I don't know. I don't know if I'm just, if it's as simple as I'm just way to hard on myself when it comes to writing because I can't even really start it, you know.

THERAPIST: When we started touching on, the readings for example, the feeling that you can sort of poke at everybody else there and put them down as long as you're not the one reading, but what's it feel like when you put yourself out there and someone is doing that to you. Like that there is a lot of more tremendous conflict (ph) [00:21:46]

CLIENT: I don't do that to everybody, by the way.

THERAPIST: I know my judgment ... (cross talk)

CLIENT: Once in a while, someone's actually good, they're good. But just not often.

THERAPIST: Okay. It's mostly a writer you say.

CLIENT: (Laughing) No,, you're right. You're right.

THERAPIST: I know you (inaudible) as far as put me downs."

CLIENT: No, I know, I know, I'm less now of a hard ass about that stuff.

THERAPIST: So, how could you not be towards your own self?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I mean to actually then start writing means there's something there that's worthy or not.

CLIENT: No, that's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: You criticize or not.

CLIENT: Nine out of 10 times I don't like what I'm writing. Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It's true. Then I'll look at other people's, well-known poets, I'm like, ‘really?' That you chose to write this in a book? And then I get like, this cognitive dissonance and I'm like, ‘who am I? Obviously, people are judging this as ‘good'. A lot of people I probably respect, so why, what's going on here? I don't know. (Sniff). So, I think that that is part of it. Then another part is maybe especially with prose that I just, I mean it's hard for me to go there because I'm overwhelmed. I don't even know where to start or what to write or-poetry is much more like a pop song, you know. I can really just chisel it and that is more do able. But, something about prose. It's just really intimidating and I just don't know where, you know?

THERAPIST: Especially if it's biographical.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: It's like opening your heart up.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's not disguised.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause) [00:23:30 [00:23:39]

CLIENT: It also could be that, you know, once you do it and you start doing well, well there you are. Do you know what I mean? It's like when my first book got the box (ph) I was super excited. Then, I got over it. So, maybe there's that, too. Or not just that, but like, ‘then what?' or something. Do you know what I mean? It's like so then, (inaudible) I'm so excited for it but I already know, like I'm already bracing myself for like, 'all right, don't, you know it's not that big of a deal-nothing major is going to happen, and when it's over it's just going to be over. It's not going to be that big a deal. And a lot of those people there aren't even going to get what the fuck you're talking about. So, I'm already kind of tempering. [00:23:51]

THERAPIST: Kind of like that's all there is (cross talk) [00:24:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. That's it.

THERAPIST: (cross talk) ... go.

CLIENT: Just like a show. I mean I've gotten so much better at that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: It might not be the perfect show. It might not be-but I don't give a shit. I know enough now to know that I'm going to go up there and play it like I'm playing an arena. I don't give a shit. And I get, I'm more and more understanding about, I'm a writer and there are these events and sometimes interesting people will be there who have something to say and get what you're saying. A lot of times they're not. It doesn't mean they don't appreciate it or, who cares? Now, I gotta translate that to the actual writing where it's like, ‘you know what? I'm at fucking Starbucks. It's 1:30. I'm just going to write something. Who the fuck cares?' Whether it's, that's what I haven't been able to-it's very strange because I used to do it. I used to be able to do it.

(Pause) [00:25:29 [00:25:35]

THERAPIST: Before your father died.

CLIENT: Yes. Like I would just have fun. It was, I can do that with music, but for some reason I can't do it writing prose.

THERAPIST: And so also does not make it feel like ADHD. You could do it before your father died.

CLIENT: Yeah, right. Right. Oh yeah, I was a machine, man. And that was,

THERAPIST: That's what you were saying.

CLIENT: Those aren't -now it's all online so, it took me a second. Then, it was fucking envelopes and return stamped envelopes when I was 17. I'm sending shit to the New Yorker. That's a confident young man. So. Being the guest editor at the fucking Assyrian weekly when I was like 18. Yeah, definitely, like my dad. I think that's more PTSD like something just gets fucking severed or frozen in time or something. Because even with the music it wasn't like after my dad died I was still so, you know, I was a closet musician. I was kind of doing music but not the way I should have been. I wasn't being, like I wasn't out there saying, ‘hey, I'm a musician. Let me put a band together and you know, anything. Let me just record tapes and give them to friends. Like there wasn't that, it just became a very, like secret, personal thing.

(Pause) [00:25:35 [00:28:21]

CLIENT: Maybe it's like, I think I said it last time, I was thinking about it. That's probably really important, like maybe it's also the feeling that no matter what I do I'm kind of alone. So, maybe that stops me. I don't know. I mean I'm just, maybe that's just a small part of it, too, that, I don't know, I do music, I don't know. I don't get it.

(Pause) [00:28:51 [00:29:01]

CLIENT: Well, although I do feel that way with music. I do it but I do have the little bit of me versus everyone else attitude.

(Pause) [00:29:07 [00:29:21]

THERAPIST: It's a feeling you've always had since you were a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For a number of different reasons that sounds like it got really exploded inside, as a trauma, of a feeling when your dad died of something about losing him...

(Pause) [00:29:36 [00:29:41]

THERAPIST: ...really left you without a man in your life. That person you identified with so much more than your mother.

CLIENT: Do they-I was going to ask you-remember that girl I briefly dated-the one who had AIDS, or HIV or whatever the fuck?

THERAPIST: A while ago.

CLIENT: Yeah. She-wow, that really was a long time ago-Jesus. She would do a lot of like group therapy. So, and then, what I was thinking with this PTSD, like I've never done that? But, is that something like I should entertain?

THERAPIST: (inaudible) I can answer but I'm so curious like why do your thoughts go there? [00:30:39]

CLIENT: Well just because like I feel like as awe like this is one piece of an awesome, well not that this is the centerpiece of what, like you know, helping myself out and all that, and then I went under, but am I still playing it safe, but I mean like I-like it's like a relationship-like I found you and like I didn't like other doctors, I didn't like, I didn't like really just talk like this to any other therapist, so it's almost like it's very intimate, but it's also kind of safe now? Like I just talk to you. Do you know what I mean? But then I thought-'cause what you would tell-I thought, ‘wow, she's so brave.' And she went to this like, you know where, I don't think it was an HIV thing, it was like a, I think she went because she had that thing where she pulls her own hair out. Remember I was telling you, I think, about that?

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:31:33]

CLIENT: So I think it was like people going through weird like, OCD difficult-I don't know, something. But, I thought, that's so brave like a bunch of fucking strangers, like that's so crazy. So, then I don't know why it just recently popped into my mind. I was like, ‘I'm sure there are lots of PTSD or trauma groups, I don't know, whatever the fuck, and I thought well, I wonder like, ‘is that a-would that be like an interesting addition, you know, like (I don know) (ph) [00:32:07]

THERAPIST: And what do you imagine? It sounds like there's something...

CLIENT: It's very embarrassing. I don't know if I'd do it, but ...

THERAPIST: Embarrassing. What, what ...

CLIENT: Just talking, saying this shit to strangers. And also kind of weird to hear people talk like this, too, you know. Or, I mean I'm very controlled, you know people crying or being weird or, I don't know if I could handle that.

THERAPIST: So maybe you are playing it safe in here, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, well yeah, that's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: In here.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause) [00:32:42 [00:32:49]

CLIENT: ‘Cause this, I mean mostly I was thinking, well what do people with PTSD do? Like, what are the most proven, you know, obviously this and like what are the things that help people with PTSD?

THERAPIST: You know, answering you intellectually, that one of the more proven forms that's helpful with integrating traumatic experiences is exposure to it, so it means talking about it in detail in every last possible detail you can imagine which to me is part of the work of this, anyway. When people who are doing war trauma or sexual abuse trauma, rape trauma at some of the trauma-based centers around town, that's what they do. They literally go in and tell the story, over and over and over again and have full on affected explosion as it's happening and the idea is that in a safe place it gets known in memory in an integrated way into the whole self and it stops haunting a person so much. Even nightmares start to subside. But that's kind of what this is about, too. My fantasy goes, I was actually thinking about this before you brought up the group that I was lost in thought thinking about when you might feel comfortable being on the couch and actually think that could help. I think it would feel different and might feel less safe.

Groups are going to focus on, to the degree that's really an interest, and I think there may be other layers of meaning in your bringing it out, too, but probably be sexual trauma groups or war trauma groups.

CLIENT: Oh, I see.

THERAPIST: See what I mean?

CLIENT: But, aren't there groups like for grieving or something?

THERAPIST: There are, yes, there are grief, in other words, finding something that's general, a more general trauma-based group, they're probably out there? I don't know as much ...

CLIENT: I see what you're saying, yeah, ‘cause they want people to have a similar experience so that they can ...

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean I'm sure they're there, but I just don't know if it would feel odd if for example three of the people in the room were talking about having been sexually abused as a child, if that was the focus. It might not feel like quite the right thing. There are general psychotherapy groups. So, not theme-focused, but general groups that have been called a process group where it's about being with other people and what is it like when you're with other people and you start talking about your life and start being a person and you actually get feedback from other people, not therapists but another person who says, ‘ya know, when you do this it kind of annoys me' or ‘I really wish you would talk more,' you know, whatever is the-people start (cross talk) [00:35:46]

CLIENT: Nah, nah, nah, that's kind of gay, ya know?

THERAPIST: No? (Laughs)

CLIENT: That's weird. I don't know, whatever. What are the other meanings though? That you said.

THERAPIST: Well, I don't know. That's why there is an intellectual response. The other things I started wondering about is just your saying, ‘is this too safe?' You know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is there another (cross talk) [00:36:09]

CLIENT: I think it's also that, you know how I am, I'm just so-I just wanted like-I'm not looking for a quick fix, I'm really just like what are all the things I can do that will help? Not that I have a pretty good grasp, like a pretty good grasp of like, okay, it's not ADD, but it's definitely some kind of fucked up trauma situation. Because the more and more and more we talk, there is a very clear, as shy as I was, it's whatever I was, I was also pretty generally, had a very rich inner life and actually did shit and I was on a normal path of any talented kid who if things kept going I would have, even if my mom is this or that, there was still a cohesive family life and I would have some how, you know I was doing poetry readings, I was putting myself out there, you know, at least with the writing. So, I don't know, it was definitely going to go somewhere. All my poetry professors were pushing me. So, something was going to come of that. So, this clearly, once my dad died, this clearly, some just complete break with all that.

(Pause) [00:37:34 [00:37:46]

THERAPIST: So, I do think talking more about all of that in every last detail you can find and feeling it more here will be very helpful to you and that's where the couch comes up in my mind as it might feel scarier and oddly safer for that to get to be part of your experience without me staring at you.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: So that your mind gets to wander safely a little bit more in space and find things that sometimes surprise you that you don't find sitting in social banter.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Okay. What do you think it would be like?

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm warming, definitely warming now to the idea. It sounds like it's the next step, it's what I should do.

THERAPIST: But, even doing it has meaning, too, for people. I mean, just lying down, you know, being over there. Not being able to see.

CLIENT: Yeah, it definitely sounds like it would take getting used to. But it sounds like therapeutically, it's the ...

THERAPIST: I think it could be very helpful.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's important. Yeah.

(Pause) [00:39:00 00:39:42]

CLIENT: You heard of this book-I think it's from the ‘70's. It's got a funny title, like ‘If you run into Budda, kill him'? or something like that?

THERAPIST: It sounds familiar.

CLIENT: Sheldon, maybe, something? I thought maybe you might know. I heard it's like a really, really excellent, you know, the whole thing about really is that you can't, there's something healthy about getting to a point where you fully realize that only you can, no doctor, no friends, can make you better. No religion, no fucking whatever. I think that it seems like a-because I was reading about it like, ‘reading this book changed my life,' and it's like the only kind of self-helpy book that whatever, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I wonder how they really seem about the couch. Is that like me making you better or is that you?

CLIENT: No. Again, I was just like thinking of all the different ways, of things that I'm not doing now, like I don't read anything about-I just come here and I talk, but I don't, you know.

THERAPIST: I don't think those things are going to help you.

CLIENT: Not help, but I think there's something about, it's more like knowledge. Well, maybe not.

THERAPIST: I don't think that the problem isn't even intellectual.

CLIENT: Yeah. (cross talk) Yeah, I know. Yeah, that stuffs probably a way to not do that. (Laughs).

(Pause) [00:41:27 [00:41:33]

THERAPIST: I'm planning on being here tomorrow. As far as my plans, I'll be here. I only thought I'd mention it to you in case for some reason it's really bad. I actually have an opening earlier. I know you probably would not want to come in earlier, but if it makes any difference.

CLIENT: So, what ...what do ...

THERAPIST: I'm just hearing they're saying to everyone to stay off the roads, don't even to work tomorrow, that kind of thing, but I will be here for first half of the day.

CLIENT: So then, what ...

THERAPIST: I have an opening at 9:50, because either my card, but if you'd want to touch base in the morning I don't think I'll fill it at this point anyway, or you could just keep 11:30 if that works for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's cool with me, but should I touch base if it's really bad or something? What should I ...

THERAPIST: If you want to. Yeah, yeah. I will definitely call you if for some reason I feel like I can't be here or ...

CLIENT: All right, so we'll just plan on 11:30. Okay. And, we're good for a Monday, right? Like I won't be here Monday ...

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: Cool.

THERAPIST: We're doing, are we doing Wednesday? Next week? Or are we going to switch to Wednesday?

CLIENT: I don't know if I'll be back in time.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's right. You told me that.

CLIENT: Yeah. So like the week after we'll can probably...

THERAPIST: Yeah, so we'll do Thursday and Friday next week and then the following Monday (inaudible) [00:42:55]

CLIENT: Thanks, Tricia. See ya!

THERAPIST: See you tomorrow.

END TRANSCRIPT