TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (inaudible) ...not all of them. Why?

CLIENT: It's kind of dopey.

THERAPIST: (Laughing) What?

CLIENT: It's kind of dopey. Like kids. I don't know. Are they all psychologists?

THERAPIST: No. That's nutritions, a suite of nutritionists.

CLIENT: They just don't seem like psychologists. (Big exhale) What's going on? (Exhale)

THERAPIST: I'm curious of who you're, what are you seeing.

CLIENT: There's one really tall broad. I'm friendly, but they're still it makes sense now it makes sense. Like these people can't be helping people with serious problems. They seem kind of like college girls.

THERAPIST: Young.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:00:47]

(Pause): [00:00:47 00:00:54]

CLIENT: (Heavy sigh) Well, we did it. (Laughs) (rhythmic thumping) This is going to be a fucking nightmare.

THERAPIST: Is it?

CLIENT: If the power goes out. I don't know why they're talking so much about the power going out? I don't remember massive snows. I guess I don't remember the last time snow made power go out.

THERAPIST: The wind is supposed to be (cross talk)

CLIENT: Oh, is that what it is?

THERAPIST: ... really, really bad tonight. (inaudible) hurricane force, (cross talk)

CLIENT: Are you serious?

THERAPIST: ...hurricane force winds. (Laughs) Overnight.

CLIENT: No because it could be fun if there was power. I have no problem, it's cozy inside and that's awesome. I don't mind snow but no power would be a little bit of a pain.

THERAPIST: Do you lose power in major storms?

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Does your house lose power sometimes in major storms?

CLIENT: Luckily, no.

THERAPIST: Not too much.

CLIENT: Like, remember that a few weeks ago?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No, luckily, although that's when all the fire alarms went off. So I don't know what that was all about. I hope that doesn't happen again, but.

THERAPIST: ...members (ph) I mean I got your message saying that's what had happened, that's why you were (cross talk) [00:01:58]

CLIENT: I, we don't know what happened, the firemen didn't know what happened either, like may have a little bit of moisture maybe or dust got in his throat, anything could have triggered it. But, it was a weird (inaudible) that was, it was the night of that crazy, so we can just hope. But, whatever. I mean that's just not a fire. I mean, but the firemen came and took care of it, but...

THERAPIST: It reminded me somehow that you, just hearing your message thinking about the police coming to your door and I just wondered if there was some (cross talk) (inaudible) later that felt a little traumatic. [00:02:32]

CLIENT: Yeah, it did a little bit because what had happened, also what had happened was I had slept late so I was like sleeping through it. So that people were banging, I guess people were banging on my door, so when I woke up

THERAPIST: That is repetition, banging the door.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So, when my mom had gotten, she had found the spare key, so when I woke up my mom was like in my apartment like yelling and so was like what freaking out and I was like in my bathrobe and I was like, ‘what the fuck?'

THERAPIST: (inaudible cross talk) didn't know. [00:03:05]

CLIENT: Nah, but even when I woke up, I mean I didn't feel fear really. I don't know why ‘cause I heard those fucking smoke it was like all right. And the firemen were really nice and yeah, it was more I was just annoyed that, I mean it's annoying, (inaudible) [00:03:24]

And then it happened one more alarm went off after I went back to sleep like at 6 or whatever it was. So I had to go down to the basement and fucking disconnect-it probably won't happen this time because we've disconnected some of them, so weird just woke me up.

THERAPIST: (Chuckles)

CLIENT: I don't know (inaudible). We're also, all of us are a little worried about my grandmother, we don't know what to do about that situation, or they don't know what to do about that situation. My mom wants to maybe bring her to our house for just for tonight or something, but then we were like but what if suddenly in the middle of the night she wants to go home. She gets this thing so you know like maybe she won't do that at our house but she has, you know, she might suddenly realize that, ‘wait why am I not at my house' you know, or something, I don't know. Whatever, they'll figure it out. [00:03:44]

(Pause): [00:04:21 00:04:41]

CLIENT: You know what's annoying me most? And it wasn't until yesterday but for whatever reason when I went to Target yesterday my card didn't work like (inaudible) you know. So, like fuck. That, that is like the cops knocking at your door. To me, I've had so many bad memories of that, like in years past, that just flipped me the fuck-I was like, that's not possible. Like, I can't be that fucking stupid. I know that if have some money in the bank. So, I wanted my card and got on the app, you know, it's fine but that freaked me out. And then, so then it set off a chain of like yeah, but you know it isn't as much as I thought. As soon as that fucking like check comes within like, what are we now, one week, exactly one week, it's just fucking decimated. Like I fucking hate that. And now I'm running the risk of by next Friday like it'll go like having nothing in my checking and I just have just 700 bucks in my savings. I don't know, man, that shit's getting really annoying. I don't know what to do about it. But I've got to figure out something. I mean whatever, a lot of people have the same issues but it's just hard. [00:04:48]

THERAPIST: It's hard to live paycheck to paycheck.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's very stressful.

CLIENT: Well, I mean, it isn't, it hadn't been until this week because I'd been good, like I had you know, yeah, it hasn't been this bad. I think it goes in cycles, like sometimes you just get hit by a bunch of stuff that I don't know, just happens, but I just, maybe that this grant writing thing, I've just gotta get my ass, it's just a lot of stuff at the same time, but even if it was just a thousand dollars a month that would be more than enough.

THERAPIST: That would be huge.

CLIENT: That would be huge, know what I mean? ‘Cause this is always what happens. Like the last week I'm always down, not always, it hasn't happened in a long time, but now, I'm down to like 300 bucks in my checking. Luckily, I have something in my, so I'll get through till Friday, but you know it's just like, what the fuck.

(Pause): [00:07:23 00:07:32]

CLIENT: So, I've got to figure it out.

(Pause): [00:07:32 00:07:38]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you have enough bills that it feels that it makes sense to pick, try and pick something else out, some (inaudible) [00:07:44]

CLIENT: Yeah, well because basically what I'm doing is not really paying my mom rent but paying her bills. Like her, her, there's one credit card that I pay over a hundred bucks a month on that. You know, electric, my electric, plus my insurance, what I owe my uncle. You know, it's like several hundred dollars.

THERAPIST: This.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. This. Gas. You now and I know I sound old, but I think we can all agree everything is expensive now. Like every three, even the Market, like it's 30 bucks here, 40 bucks. It really like, I don't know, it's a little scary. I don't, and the thing is I always end up feeling worse for people. Like I'm doing it, I mean I have a roof over my head, it's my fucking house. I'm able to do these things. All these people that are just fucked. You know, like that's, it's both horrifying, because it's like there but for the grace of god, but also it just tears me apart that there are these people that are just, man, you know, like on a day like this they have to take the fucking bus or they, you know, I don't know, they're working three jobs or whatever the fuck-they have screaming kids or I don't know how people do it. But, yeah, I think the grant writing thing, I think that will be great. Though I think it's hard when you're trying to do so many things.

THERAPIST: It's a lot of work to get there.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Why are you eliminating tutoring? I forget why. Tutoring seems to ...

CLIENT: I can't deal anymore with teaching. I'm just so burned out. I just can't do it. I can't do it. That's not true. I could do it. I just ...

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it was worth it to you.

CLIENT: No, I'm just done.

THERAPIST: That's not you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm just done with it. And, yeah, it's good money, it's cash but (pause) I gotta say there is something too about it. Like I lived in it, this is like perfect, in and out, you know what I mean? And it's not really hard because it's here, you know and I love this little area but I'm just kind of done with it like I just ... [00:09:51]

THERAPIST: Humph.

CLIENT: I don't know. I think that [inaudible] like work in that fucking garage like it's just disgusting and I don't know, I'm just done with it.

(Pause): [00:10:23 00:10:29]

CLIENT: No, I think if I put some feelers out to do some smaller grants that are manageable and just charge people a little bit less, I mean let's face it, let's say I work my ass off, I reach out to a bunch of places and three little non-profits are like ‘sure we could do' you know. Well, they each have to pay something up front and well, there you go. (Laughs) (inaudible) ... you know what I mean? Like it's, it could be really good, you know, it's just, I have to have the mental space and it's just a lot, but I think I've got to do it because this, you know, it's a great idea and I think it could be really good.

(Pause) [00:11:15 00:11:20]

CLIENT: But yeah, money stuff is not fun. But whatever, I have to keep in mind that I'm consolidating my loans, my credit debt better which will mean there will be more options if I wanted to do anything that are financial related, you know? (inaudible) been calling me every day to not consolidate. Like you know, we just want you to know you can lose some benefits, like dude, fuck your benefits. I can have one monthly payment and clear all my default-(laughs) loans. I think I'll take my chances.

(Pause): [00:12:05 00:12:18]

THERAPIST: You eliminate teaching other things, too? You're done with just teaching.

CLIENT: What other things?

THERAPIST: What other things? Music. Writing.

CLIENT: Music's tough because I'm self-taught. What would I teach, you know what I mean? I guess I could teach little kids, put your fingers here, but even that, my fingerings not really correct, know what I mean? I've come to realize that's why my songs are good because I made things up myself in terms of like yeah, I'll just put my fingers here. Of course, if someone had really taught me they'd have taught me, naw, you don't put your fingers there, you know what I mean? Like, this is how you play a C chord. I didn't even know I was playing a C chord. I just made it sound good. So, I could teach piano, but whatever piano I know that kid's gonna learn ... Or no, piano I could teach. The difference would be I wouldn't be able to play it, like, you know, I've taught myself enough so that if they're playing Beethoven I know I could follow the music and tell them what they're doing but then if I wanted to correct them or something I can't play it, so how could I.

(Pause): [00:13:30 00:13:35]

CLIENT: The only thing I would maybe think about doing is like an adjunctive thing again except teaching literature or something like that, but.

THERAPIST: Or writing.

CLIENT: Writing what?

THERAPIST: Poetry.

CLIENT: Those are impossible. Creative writing and adjunctive? It's unheard of.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's unheard of.

CLIENT: ‘Cause those are the cream of the crop classes, you know. And even the literature classes are harder and harder. It's impossible. They're going to give you intro to fucking com-you know it's all this exposition and composition and bullshit that professors don't want to teach. And that I don't want to teach. So. I'm not going to do that for two grand, you know, so.

(Pause): [00:14:16 00:14:19]

CLIENT: Two grand for three and a half months of work for like 2,500 means-I would do it if I enjoyed it, if I'm like teaching modern poetry or something, like yeah, all right, the students will be a better crop of students, they'll care more, I care, you know? But teaching 35 idiots that they're using too many commas when they're fucking 19, 20 years old is just like, fuck that. And telling them not to text. Like it really has changed, too, like when I first started there wasn't this it's different now. It sounds awful. I can't deal with ...

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: ... to be and yet we're young and we say these things, but it's true, like everyone's on their fucking phones or texting and just I don't know, man, like it's not like if they want to make me tenure and pay me 80 grand a year I'll put up with that (laughs) but using you like an indentured servant to teach buffoons is one thing I've thought of which is more entrepreneurial I thought of maybe like doing my own poetry workshop.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:15:27]

CLIENT: You know, just saying, ‘look.'

THERAPIST: Three months teaching.

CLIENT: Yeah, because the only things I have to make that leap, that's from like, ‘yeah, but could I do that?' It's like, of course I could fucking do that. I mean, yeah, if they said, ‘well who's teaching it' and if they told them all the things I've done and they'd like, ‘oh, all right,' but for just some reason I can't make that leap and also where would I teach it? If I had a nice home where people could come over, you know? So, I'd have to figure that out.

(Pause): [00:16:00 00:16:06]

CLIENT: I know exactly where I could teach it. Come to think of it, the Assyrian Cultural Center has a tiny little library and I know those guys so they'd probably just give me the key if I just said yeah, I should do that.

(Pause): [00:16:16 00:16:24]

CLIENT: You think it would be weird to like ask for my former professors around here, like, look I'm thinking of doing this thing, what kind of tips, like you know, I've never done, you know, I know how to teach it, but in terms of like what I should be charging or how it should (inaudible). Is that weird to ask other poets? [00:16:41]

THERAPIST: I wouldn't know what their experience was, but your question doesn't sound weird to ask somebody in the field.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...tips on, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, a few other people told me about that, too, they were looking into probably if you take ...

THERAPIST: It's hard for you to believe you could

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: ... teach that.

CLIENT: It totally is. (Rhythmic thumping)

THERAPIST: Like that doesn't fit together with your reading someone else's poetry or prose and you're saying, ‘why (inaudible) put this together (cross talk) [00:17:20]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's weird. Yeah.

THERAPIST: There's a mind and a critic and (cross talk)

CLIENT: I think there is something about a university where you feel like they're validating you if you teach there.

(Pause): [00:17:30 00:17:35]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't get that. I don't know what's going on there because, I mean I felt comfortable and taught five sections but you know maybe there's something about, wow, I'm really coming out and saying ‘fuck the academic shit, I'm a poet.' Like I can, you know what I mean, I think that's the difference. I feel like the university stuff is playtime, like you know I was teaching it but I had more of a bravado about it because I didn't give a fuck and I knew I knew more than these little whippersnappers so I just kind of like had fun with it and was kind of like there was the swagger of it. It was fun. It was nice to, yeah, whatever. Especially in London. Those kids actually care. But, this is more like I'm not pretending to be an academic.

THERAPIST: Well, also they wouldn't be kids.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. These would be people that care enough to want to be part of a little, yeah, that's right.

THERAPIST: They could be even older than you.

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: Or your age or you know, just under, not college students who may also feel serious enough about it. This isn't just some prereq they're filling to graduate.

CLIENT: That's right, that's right. Yeah, remember this is going to this is another little thing I never told you that's going to blow your mind a little with it, but I was like 18 when I first came back to go to school and I started [inaudible] like these are big poets that were there, you know. And at the time I didn't really get that but could tell there was something about them, you know.

THERAPIST: Big poets who were at the university you mean?

CLIENT: The creative writing department is really strong. It always has been, like that would be an ideal, like, I love it there. But, and you got to submit stuff and be accepted even if you were an English major. And I did and I remember that summer, or the summer, whatever, right around that time I was like 18, I got a call from one of them and I was like, oh my god, and was like, ‘hello' I was like 18 years old. She was like, ‘listen, I just wanted to let you know that I walked to Stephen Cramer,' Stephen Cramer was the poetry editor at The Atlantic and now he's the head of the Creative Writing Department at Wesley, and she was like, ‘I've talked to Steve and he's doing a poetry workshop, you know, at his house and I've told him that you should be in it, I've recommended you.' Now, in retrospect, part of that could be she's trying to help out a friend, just trying to make some money. You know what I mean? But, when I got there, first of all he accepted me, but when I got there I was kind of like, holy shit, I was definitely the youngest person there and these were serious people. You know, there were only like between eight and ten people there at his house and these were like serious people. So, I mean I have that memory. That was the only time I ever did anything like that.

THERAPIST: So those ... (cross talk)

CLIENT: And, of course, I didn't finish it because that was the year, well, that was for a good reason I didn't know my parents were going to send me to Europe I wasn't going to say no to that, right? But, it was interesting. I didn't finish that. I went to Europe and then my dad died a month after I got back. So, it was like a weird isn't that interesting though? I never thought about this. Like that was my poetry, like, that's so interesting.

THERAPIST: Entre into that.

CLIENT: Yeah, like that was ...

THERAPIST: (inaudible) (cross talk)

CLIENT: You know, fucking Stephen Cramer. Like that I don't think the stuff I was writing back then it was good, but I don't know, but I don't think it was "Atlantic" good, but regardless, I was there. That means it definitely was and is now that good. Like, who knows, or maybe it was that good. Maybe one or two poems were that good. They were good but that's right, I never thought about that. But that got curtailed right when my dad died. It was for a totally different reason, I mean I was, how do you say no, never in my life ...

THERAPIST: That your parents sent you to ...

CLIENT: I had two Assyrian friends who were a little older than me that graduated college, very, very good friends and they were going to Europe.

THERAPIST: All over Europe or somewhere in particular?

CLIENT: Yep. Backpacking all over the place, you know one of those like two month or whatever things. So one day like I'm telling, I'll never forget, I'm telling my mom while she's in the bathroom like combing her hair or some shit like that, and of all, and this is my mom, not my dad, but my mom says, ‘well, why aren't you going?' (Whispers) what? Because they had been like, ‘you should come with us, ask your parents, whatever.' And I didn't even bother asking. I was like between my mom and how expensive that would be, you know, no. And my mom says, ‘why aren't you going?' So, literally ..

THERAPIST: (Chuckles)

CLIENT: ... within a one week period like I left that work, I scrambled to get a passport, I scrambled like and then that was it.

(Pause): [00:22:46 00:22:52]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you shouldn't have gone?

CLIENT: No, no, no. No. That was the nicest thing my parents ever did for me.

That was a big someone like me to, in some ways that's more of a writing workshop than being in some snooty person's house.

THERAPIST: It was a good decision.

CLIENT: Oh, it was amazing, amazing. I made out with a chick on the it was like awesome man, like all the things it should be, you know?

(Pause): [00:22:52 00:23:22]

CLIENT: Especially when for me, like I was so shy, I mean I definitely take advantage of it the way other guys would. I took advantage of it like, ‘holy shit, I'm in Europe' and kind of like more romantic, romanticized and like more like a shy kid. But it was fucking amazing. I'd been to pretty much every country in Europe. Especially with two really good friends. I mean it was an adventure, I mean adventures. So.

THERAPIST: It was the three of you went on bikes ...

CLIENT: And hostels, trains. We took a fucking boat from the tip of Italy to

Greece. I'm sorry. From Greece. What the fuck did we do? Yeah, from Italy to Greece, I'm sorry, yeah. All the way up. It was fucking burning hot, in some rinky dink port town down there. I mean overnight through the fucking Adriatic and shit like it was like, yeah. Greek islands, you know. We did split up. I spent some alone time. I found my relatives whom I'd never met in Geneva. I went alone to, from Berlin to Paris. It was amazing. When I think about it it was pretty fucking amazing. Venice. Stayed in a monastery, Assyrian monastery in Venice.

THERAPIST: Wow.

(Pause): [00:25:08 00:25:14]

CLIENT: And then the last night from Amsterdam to Paris to catch my flight it was like so the whole trip I didn't, you know I wasn't the type at the time to like make moves on girls, whatever, I wanted to but I was a shy, just wasn't. So, the last night I'll never fucking forget, I'm sitting on the train and some dude comes and sits next to me whatever and I'm like all right that's that, you know what I mean? And at some point this dude gets up and it's okay I found my friends and he just goes just somewhere else on the train and this fucking stunning chick sits next to me and we ended up having the most romantic train ride. It was so, it was very like innocent, kind of, I don't think she was selling (inaudible) but I think she liked the fact that I was or something. Like we were like snuggling and like I think I like read to her. I was reading James Baldwin at the time so I kind of like read her the short story I was reading and we had like a crazy make out session like it was fucking awesome man. And then I think she actually tried to get in touch with me here and my mom yeah, but I was doing something and my mom was like some girl tried to call. Did she leave a number? Nope. But that was her. She was like, yeah she sounded French or something European. (inaudible) [00:26:07]

THERAPIST: Did she leave a number?

CLIENT: No. Or she did and my mom didn't tell me. Back then my mom was much more ...

THERAPIST: I think it felt sort of magical.

CLIENT: It was and now that I really think about it I never really told the story like this to anyone. Yeah. We almost got kicked off the train in the Alps. Well, we didn't.

THERAPIST: And where did you fly into?

CLIENT: Frankfurt.

THERAPIST: Frankfurt. And went ...

CLIENT: Everywhere except Scandinavia, Spain and Portugal. Hungary, Prague. I mean this was the nineties, too, so it was much more exciting. Like, Hungary, Prague, I don't know, Germany, France, oh, and not the UK. France, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, Holland, Liechtenstein, whatever, all those other weird little places. In Holland I stayed with this couple from the States.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: We stayed in a hostel together. Totally weird. I mean, not weird, but when I look back and like, ‘wow, I did that.' That's so fucking odd. Strange.

THERAPIST: It's funny. It's kind of reminding me of your dreams of cities, approaching cities and boats and ...

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean it was amazing. It was, it was amazing. Absolutely. And you know I always like put myself, not put myself down but I have this image that I was this shy and you know, whatever, and that is kind of true, but clearly it's not. I mean if your in the Netherlands by yourself ...

THERAPIST: You're not only shy.

CLIENT: You're not an idiot, yeah, you're not some cowering fool, you know. Just because you're not, just because I wasn't quite the lady's guy that I became or something, I mean that kid in some ways was braver, you know? Because I was really shy and you know...

(Pause): [00:28:57 00:29:07]

THERAPIST: Without the confident exterior (cross talk)

CLIENT: Yeah, no.

THERAPIST: Not to be (cross talk)

CLIENT: Yeah, and I was very, very innocent, like very heart on your sleeve, kind of, just doing things. But I did it.

(Pause): [00:29:17 00:29:28]

THERAPIST: And this was all right before your dad died?

CLIENT: Um hmm. When I got back it was literally about a month. I got back like late August, early September. He died a month later. So, now, too, I think it's very special. And also when I got back they had redone my bedroom. It was like remember I was telling you I built my own bookshelf, I was sleeping on the floor. I think they were like, ‘what the fuck is going on?' So they bought me these really nice bookshelves and a bed and made my room look really nice and like organized, like I had shit everywhere, books and tapes and records and they organized everything. So, in some ways it was oddly symbolic, it turns out.

(Pause): [00:30:12 00:30:29]

CLIENT: And it was cute because when I got back my dad picked me up with my little cousin which I thought was so cute. The one who has the kids and I'm the godfather, she's like six years younger than me so then she was like 12. But I thought that was I remember even back then I was like aw, that's because she loved my dad and he kind of loved teasing her and making her laugh and you know, yeah, it was cool.

(Pause): [00:31:00 00:31:32]

THERAPIST: And you were coming home to your family.

CLIENT: Yeah. I've always liked that feeling. Even now I like that. Even when I got back from London. Yeah, we're a tight fa yeah, at the end of the day it is what it is, you know, it's a very tight family, it's very warm, you know, for all it's bullshit. So, it is kind of nice to ...

(Pause): [00:31:36 00:31:44]

THERAPIST: You're also just remembering parts of what was so good before your dad died.

CLIENT: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. (Sniff).

(Pause): [00:31:52 00:32:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, and then the whole family was getting along, kind of like the old days, you know (cross talk)

THERAPIST: At that point again?

CLIENT: Yeah. The only thing that was bad he had hurt his arm at the, remember, at the factory. They were thinking about buying this grocery store property thing in the area and something was up, like he just, I don't know what happened with that. He didn't want to do it. Something about him, he didn't seem comfortable. I don't know what was going on with that, but maybe he was a little more depressed than he let on. Because my dad was very-both my parents-were very hard, they're hard workers. Even my mom, she might complain but she fucking works hard. So, and I think my dad's pride, he was a guy who got up at 5 in the morning, had his coffee, had a smoke, went to visit his buddies at the garage, then went to work, like just, I think there was something about having this injury that maybe made him feel ...

THERAPIST: How old were you when the injury, that injury happened? It was not long before (cross talk) (inaudible) [00:33:11]

CLIENT: Yeah, it was only like a year or two before he died. So he was at home. Like he just ...

THERAPIST: So it meant he really couldn't do what he had been doing.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, his arm, he was lucky he didn't lose his arm. So, doctor's appointments, this, that, I don't know.

(Pause): [00:33:31 00:33:43]

THERAPIST: So it affected his identity.

CLIENT: Big time. And also, the poor guy was probably scared. He was probably thinking, ‘what the fuck, we're buying this property, I've never run a store in my life.' You know, who knows. Maybe he was worried we had this one house and what if that goes wrong and so maybe he just felt pressure like that he had to do something.

THERAPIST: You mean to make money?

CLIENT: Because a guy like that (cross talk) ...

THERAPIST: He couldn't do what he was doing before.

CLIENT: What he was doing before and it is what it is. No college degree, you know what I mean, like limited. So, it's a very typical, like okay, well then, let's buy a convenience store, that's what immigrants do.

(Pause): [00:33:43 00:35:07]

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: I was thinking about that, how strange that is. Like everything changed. Let's say he had bought it and then he died. Like, you know there are all these things that could have happened, it's so strange.

THERAPIST: What do you imagine if he'd bought it and then he died?

CLIENT: I mean, to be honest, it would have been good. Yeah, that's a great property. Very good property. It was the store plus the fucking building with apartments in it. I mean, I definitely wasn't going to run some store at 18, but we could have figured out a way to just sell the store or something, whatever, we would have figured it out. So. In that way I don't, I do feel a little, I guess it's resentment, or confus-like I just don't know what stopped him, why he didn't want to I should ask my uncle one day why. "Cause I remember there were a few times my dad was really up like he was like, ‘I don't want to do it.' He got excited.

THERAPIST: He was saying this (inaudible) to your mom? [00:36:17]

CLIENT: I think it was me and my uncle and my dad.

THERAPIST: You were in the conversation.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was there. I went with them to look at the store. And I used to like to hang out with my uncle and my dad. My uncle like loved my dad. So I used to love to tag along with dad, you know feel like part of the guys.

THERAPIST: And your sense is that your uncle did want to do it?

CLIENT: I'm pretty sure he did because he was behind like negotiating, helping my dad understand why this was good, this is the thing you might have to fix, whatever it was.

Now, of course, back then my uncle was not the guy he is now, you know what I mean? He was just getting started, too. This was even before he really started doing well, but, real estate. But, he knew way more than my dad.

(Pause): [00:37:13 00:38:07]

THERAPIST: You wish your dad had done it.

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: You wish your dad had done it.

CLIENT: I think so, yeah. I mean, this was 1991, that's (inaudible), you know where that poultry place is? There's that awesome sign that says "live poultry killed fresh"... [00:38:17]

THERAPIST: Oh, yes.

CLIENT: So you go past that towards the courthouse a little bit. It's a nice spot and it's, you know, my sense was right. The store is still there. It's doing well. As a matter of fact, an Assyrian dude that we kind of know, that my dad knew, ended up buying it, which is kind of odd, but whatever. That's life, but, it's still running well, doing well. It's a great — if he'd bought that in ‘91? Because in ‘91 that wasn't, it was nice, but it wasn't what it is now, and I was like you know, it's nice but try to buy something like that now.

(Pause): [00:39:11 00:39:21]

CLIENT: I mean in some ways it's a typical pie asslian (ph) thing, like I just think that my dad, he wasn't ambitious. He had a job, roof over our heads. I think that's what it was, he was like, ‘what the fuck? I'm going to open this fucking store every day and sell gum and there was something about that that rubbed him the wrong way and in a way I don't see it, I can't see my dad even at the time I was like, ‘this is kind of odd', you know? But I kind of psyched my I was like oh, I'll work there, I mean I would have, but there was something about that. Because my dad was such a working class guy but also above that somehow. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like there was something about that. Even when I'd go to the factory to pick him up from work or whatever, going in there and seeing him, he just, you know everyone loved him, but he just seemed like, ‘yeah, it's a job' but somehow he's above that. I can't explain it, so I wonder if in him there was something more like, ‘what the fuck, I'm going to sell little punks lollipops, cigarettes to people, what the fuck?' you know? [00:39:21]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I'm sure, because we all have that. We want enough money to be kind of comfortable, but just chilled out, like you know? It's like, you know, it's about savoring life more than, I mean, I don't know? But knowing him and his brothers and the way my aunt is, you know, 90 something, 97 year old woman, no, like a 90 year old woman still smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee, going to the hair salon. She's living it up, you know, she doesn't give a shit. I mean she does and she doesn't. (Chuckle).

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:41:16 00:41:39]

THERAPIST: Also when I feel something the way you describe it, ‘what I must sell gum to little punks?' you said that's what immigrants do something about dignity almost ...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Some way he could maintain that even working very hard physically in a factory, or whatever (cross talk)

CLIENT: Just something, yeah, there's something honorable about, you know ...

THERAPIST: That sounds like it doesn't feel that way in the family about being publically selling something ...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You said that when I brought up selling Starbucks one time, like absolutely not. (Laughs) Am I doing anything like that?

CLIENT: The only difference is I have done things like that. That's the thing. Or maybe for my dad it was like his dad had a little, I mean it was a very nice store. You know my grandfather sold little crystals, not crystals like, like a china shop so it wasn't a shitty convenience shop, but ...

THERAPIST: But it was retail.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Maybe there was something ...

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I don't know. And my dad clearly didn't stay and take over that business. Although like, I mean he couldn't I guess because of what was going on politically and whatever all that shit, but ...

THERAPIST: He also didn't come here and go into that.

CLIENT: No, right. He just became a mechanic. He did buy a gas station but that (cross talk)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:43:09]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's still open. I mean he bought a gas station so he could work on cars, basically. So, yeah, I don't know.

(Pause): [00:43:18 00:43:26]

THERAPIST; Maybe he didn't feel like (inaudible) a man.

CLIENT: Sorry?

THERAPIST: Maybe he didn't feel like (inaudible) a man somehow. [00:43:28]

CLIENT: Maybe. Maybe he was old school that way, you know, he just ...

(Pause): [00:43:33 00:43:41]

CLIENT: I mean it's definitely more noble I think but it also runs against the grain of the realities of what the United States is. It's not like Wittgenstein that means I got to fuck philosophy, I'm going to live in an igloo in Finland, I mean well that was the world back then and that's, someone like that could do something like that, you know, but here it's noble but your ...

THERAPIST: It would cost.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

(Pause): [00:44:16 00:44:27]

CLIENT: My other uncle did the same. I mean, who the fuck moves to St. Louis? In like 1979? Ya see, like that's the thing, on some level it's like they're not thinking about the kids, you know what I mean? It's like if you have three kids why would you take these kids to fucking Shitsville, USA? Okay, it's a steady job, you got your pension, but you couldn't do that anywhere else? It's just, two brothers? You couldn't open a that, none of us got me and my cousins would talk about that all the time, like that pisses us off, that one like, wait a minute your bro-your two brothers, you're here. It's a great fucking state, you're both mechanics, like you don't open a gas station? That's, that's seriously (laughs) some bizarre shit.

(Pause): [00:45:20 00:45:25]

CLIENT: You know, both like talkers, charmers, I mean they would be doing they'd be that awesome mechanic you have, that you tell people about, ‘oh my god I have this awesome mechanic.'

(Pause): [00:45:39 00:45:49]

CLIENT: And it's the same resentment and anger that my mom and her siblings feel toward my grandfather. It's like on both sides are these men that just didn't seem to really be able to adapt and take advantage of ‘but why the fuck did you come here. You know, the United States is about making money,' for those people. You know, I was born here, you were born here. We're here. But if you're going to go through unimaginable cluster fucks to get to the United States, you're a great mechanic, open the fucking garage. You're an amazing fucking tailor, a European, my god, like it's bizarre, it's like we can't fathom like what's going on there.

(Pause): [00:46:37 00:46:48]

THERAPIST: So we have a bit of a break.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Till Thursday.

CLIENT: Thursday. I'll try to control my withdrawal symptoms.

THERAPIST: (Laughs).

CLIENT: Thanks, Tricia.

THERAPIST: Have a good trip.

CLIENT: Oh, can I ask you a favor? Thank you. Ask you a favor? If, could you maybe hold onto my check until like Thursday or something?

THERAPIST: Did you bring me up to Friday? (Cross talk)

CLIENT: I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, ah no, it's fine.

CLIENT: Thank you. Stay safe and dry.

THERAPIST: Thank you, you too.

CLIENT: And thank you. See you next week.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: (Laughs) Thank you.

THERAPIST: Good-bye.

END TRANSCRIPT