TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (sighs) No fireplace?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Damn.

THERAPIST: Are you cold?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm good, just kidding around. So had a bit of a watershed moment last night. It's going to take a little while to digest this one. There were a little less or little more than a hundred people there.

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah...

THERAPIST: Oh my goodness!

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't...I'm still kind of...I took all the books I had which is like a box of maybe 25 or something. They were all gone.

THERAPIST: That's so great!

CLIENT: Yeah it was bizarre, it was really bizarre. I felt totally comfortable I read really well. Yeah, I don't know what the fuck to say about it, I just...it was crazy, absolutely crazy.

THERAPIST: Congratulations!

CLIENT: Thanks. [00:01:22] What I liked is there were a lot of non-Assyrians there, mostly Assyrian but a lot of non-Assyrians. Young, old, like people were riveted. It was really a conversation. People asked a lot of questions, they were very thoughtful. Yeah, it was really awesome. Like afterwards everyone was like very very genuine and very...it felt good.

THERAPIST: The focus was your poetry?

CLIENT: Yeah, my poetry and so what we did was we...the woman who's the director of the museum got up to kind of introduce us but also introduce the series. So their idea is to not have like a talk but kind of like...you know those French shows where two people sit around a small little circular table?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Something like that. So like writers, artists, whatever. Then I got up, read from my book, then I sat down with the professor and then she kind of set up this like "Here are a couple of questions I had about his work, blah, blah, blah." Then we opened it up to questions and discussion whatever and at the end I read poems from the new manuscript. [00:02:55] Yeah it was crazy, really, really amazing.

THERAPIST: Maybe it was a big deal?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah I mean I wasn't expecting ...I thought it would go well but I mean that's ridiculous for a poetry event. That's...so yeah it felt really, really good and it did feel good that there were hometown people there, not just my relatives, they were all there but my uncle was there, my aunt, my cousins, my mom, she was like sitting in the front row. Some of her friends just like...just that it was a hometown thing. I liked that, there was, you know, that felt good and yeah I just felt really comfortable, I read really well, I was myself, I made little jokes, little asides. [00:03:59] I was also very serious and I held my ground. The director of the museum, she's a nice lady but I don't know if she's a little ditzy or what but I was like very kind of critical. I was saying like how, you know, poetry is in a weird golden age in the United States but it doesn't mean that it matters as much. It's not like the days when poets were so dangerous, they had to be imprisoned and things like that and I was saying "We kind of need to get back to that point." So it's not like, you know, some kind of...it can go back to the power that it used to have instead of just like preaching to the choir. It's great that people care about it but it's all just preaching to other people that care, there's no...I don't think Obama is scared of any poets influencing people. The director kind of tried to challenge me on that and I don't know if it's because she just wanted to emphasize that this was such a successful event. She was like "Look at these all people, obviously they do care." It felt good, I kind of like stuck my ground. That felt really good and I was fast on my feet and I was like "Listen, my job is to be provocative, not to just say this is great, this is great, that's great." That's not the job of an artist. My job is to press buttons and to get people to think even if they disagree or even...so that felt good just "What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not going to sit up here and say oh isn't this great, everybody came here." I mean it is great of course, that's a given, of course it's great but that's not the point. The point is then we all go home and so then what is the potency of art? [00:05:51] If it's become a commodity like everything else? So that felt good. I'm glad I kind of stuck my ground. But yeah everyone had very interesting questions, thoughtful, people were really fucking paying attention, nobody's phone went off. I don't know, it was great. Just went really well. So yeah I don't know, it's definitely, it's going to take me a little while to let it sink in a little bit. (pause)

THERAPIST: In a way though it's funny you are describing a feeling that mattered to them while you were sitting there.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, no question.

THERAPIST: It's a different kind of mattering?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah and no I was very grateful for that. No I couldn't believe it. But I think it almost inspired me more to be, to push them and I think they felt that, I think people welcomed that. Afterwards a lot of people were like "This is the best event I've been to at this museum." Or some people "This is the best Assyrian event I've been to in years." There were people I'd never freaking seen...Assyrians, I'd never seen in my life and I'm from here. Some woman and her daughter who are living in central square, a lot of Assyrians don't live in central square. Assyrians are the type they get the hell out of...you know? [00:07:31] Very nice, totally American, like the daughter didn't really know Assyrian but she's going to Assyria. I don't know, it was awesome, really...it was great. It kind of leaves me hungry to do more now of these kinds of things. You know the Girlier book shop?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: One of the guys that used to run it was there. Phil, this guy Phil. Was a really good guy I was kind of surprised to see him there. He works at the Public Library now by the high school and he was...and I respect his opinion, he's a poet and I respect his opinion. He was so into it and so...yeah, it was awesome. He was like "We got to get you into the Public Library and we'll do some stuff."

THERAPIST: That's fantastic.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm glad they...hopefully the video came out. I think it probably did. I'm just glad there's a document. (pause) [00:08:53]

THERAPIST: In a way you're saying the fact that it mattered enough that people were riveted and really paying attention in some ways gives you even more courage to be even more yourself which might mean going more out on a line.

CLIENT: Right, right. Well it kind of validated something that has been there. I mean every reading I've given has been good. I've never given a bad reading thank god, like it's all gone well, I've always gotten a great reaction but it's always been nothing like that. And also I've never given a reading where it's just me, usually it's a couple poets and you don't really talk you just read and whatever. This kind of validated like I can handle myself super well, people are obviously very...I'm just good at it, I don't know. I don't talk about them, I think I connect with people really well and for a poet that's ...not many poets can say that. Their work might be powerful but they're not the best...either they're too eccentric or they're too academic or they're too gruff or whatever it is but I think there's...I like the activism part of it without calling it activism.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:16]

CLIENT: So I like that, it means a lot. (pause)

THERAPIST: it's not just being a poet but being a speaker also to a subject matter, a story teller.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is really different then what you can put on paper.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That's what was riveting people, as much as your poetry, I can imagine.

CLIENT: And I think what makes me feel good about it is I wasn't thinking in the moment. I stood right up, I was like "I'm not going to sit while I'm reading, I'm going to stand." I stood, I was not just keeping my eyes on the paper or on the book and during the discussion I was very comfortable, I wasn't...That felt, just personally, other than the poetry stuff, I was like "Wow, I'm good at this shit. This is weird." In retrospect, after I was like "What the fuck just happened?" [00:11:33] (pause)

THERAPIST: Did your mom say anything?

CLIENT: Oh yeah she was very, very proud. My uncle, my aunt, my uncle I think almost got a little choked up towards way at the end. I literally couldn't talk to people because people kept coming up to me to sign books and I didn't have any wine, didn't have any snacks I was just kind of...way at the end when I finally went over to my uncle and gave him...he's like "I'm really proud of you," and I noticed he got a little...yeah. It was nice. Then my aunt, that felt really good, she was like " I thought poetry...I didn't think there would be that many people with that much interest." I was like "yeah!" It was fantastic. And that's the truth. I'm not, I'm from here there's not been an Assyrian event like that in years. That good, that organized, that professional, diverse, I mean that's...yeah. (pause) [00:13:00]

THERAPIST: Does it make you feel proud?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And it's energizing. Now I feel like "Alright, I'm...." I don't know. I'm just like adrift on a raft somewhere.

THERAPIST: It's real.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That really happened last night.

CLIENT: Yeah it really happened and you know it's nice to know my writing is as good as I think it is, it does affect people whether they're American, Assyrian, old, young, somehow it touches a chord so that's really good...it keeps you going. Even academically I felt like "You know what, I'm not an academic" but I was bringing up like [inaudible], I was making all these...afterwards I was like "What the fuck!" Alright I guess I can kind of do a little...it was the perfect dose of academic, just a little slip something in there. [00:14:27] It was really great. A lot of my friends took the bus to get there. It was really nice. This old gay guy said he wanted to marry my brain.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Oh my goodness!

CLIENT: I'm assuming he's gay, I don't know, he's always flamboyant and he's never been married as far as I know.

THERAPIST: That's a compliment.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah. Oh man.

THERAPIST: I'm not quite sure though if you're taking it all in or not.

CLIENT: No. I mean I am but I'm not. It's going to take a little while to process but the good thing will be I have people like I'll talk with the woman who's the moderator, as I talk more with people and e-mail and it will start...Right now it's just kind of the adrenaline, kind of excitement. I do wish kind of that Kelly was there.

THERAPIST: I was wondering that.

CLIENT: Yeah, she had to work, she had to give her presentation about her trip and that was at 5 so by the time...you know, to get back here by 7:30 was just...She was like "I can probably be there by 8:30," I was like "Nah, don't worry about it." That's another reason I'm glad it was videotaped if people want to see it or whatever. I'm also on some level just as a career I'm glad because you know it's good for [inaudible]. [inaudible] doesn't have events like that all the time, that's a big deal. So I'm glad I can tell them "look this is how all this shit went down." So hopefully they'll be excited about the next book. [00:16:28]

THERAPIST: Did you ever hear back from Jason?

CLIENT: No I haven't.

THERAPIST: You didn't? Hm.

CLIENT: I heard back from the guy who runs the publisher, the blog.

THERAPIST: Okay. Huh.

CLIENT: Not really taking it...I don't know. Jason I think can be like that sometimes, just kind of...I'll probably touch base with him again after this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:17:39] Yeah, I mean, it's definitely going to take a while, it's very overwhelming, you know, to have all that reaction and people coming up to me...definitely was overload in a good way.

THERAPIST: A tremendous amount of praise.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That is almost like, I mean, the groove burned inside you is criticism to there's nowhere for that praise to settle yet, to make it be yours, to grow inside you.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: What do you do with it floating all around? (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know, I'm definitely proud of it, I'm not...it's a good sign that I'm not kind of poo-pooing it, you know what I mean? I'm very proud of it. [00:18:53] There was like this guy that's a composer, this American guy, he's like a real composer. The director of the museum, he's her husband, was there and he's a very well-known violinist. When I was talking to these people I didn't feel like reverential...you know what I mean? It felt good, I wasn't even thinking, I was just talking to them. That felt good.

THERAPIST: Feeling like an adult?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Amongst peers rather than like a child?

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Looking up to?

CLIENT: Right. And I wasn't effected that my family was there or wasn't there, didn't matter at all. It really didn't.

THERAPIST: That's huge too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Even that presence could...

CLIENT: Yeah it can throw people off.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, anyone. Yeah.

CLIENT: I just didn't care. It's like when I'm in that zone it's like the work is what's...like I'm... [00:20:01] (pause) It's definitely motivating me to kind of get to focus more and...I'm realizing now maybe that's what's been missing all this time when I'm like "Oh I have ADD" maybe it's that I'm not out there doing stuff. Interacting with people. That keeps you going. Now I'm like "Oh shit, yeah, just cause I'm at Starbucks by myself I'm not...I'm working towards things that then connect with people in the real world." Maybe that's what was missing a little bit. [00:21:29] (pause)

THERAPIST: What was missing was having a sense of your own goodness, deep down. Talking with you makes it (inaudible) and the photo of Kelly, that's just one example of how what gets admired immediately is destroyed in another person and even in you. It doesn't leave room for your talents to be nourished from your childhood and to be took as something you can feel proud of and go do and be successful at.

CLIENT: Right, right. [00:22:47]

THERAPIST: They get envied then destroyed and then loved and then envied and then destroyed and then loved and envied and then destroyed.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: Your mother playing out of something in her own psyche, in her relationship with her own internal objects, her parents somehow, it's gendered, it's very derogatory towards men and women in different ways. (pause) [00:24:01]

CLIENT: I mean yeah, it's definitely, that's a good way to put it, like there's no groove for...I feel like there's just like kind of excitement and adrenaline and I don't know, different things just kind of like flying around, it's weird. Especially cause it's not just the reading, there's a record coming out, there's a record release party, there's just kind of like...So I think that's why I feel headachy or whatever it's almost like I just want to stay in bed or something, it gets...so unusual. (pause) [00:25:05]

THERAPIST: It's not...it's taking time to understand, to settle in that this is you.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: That this is you, not...

CLIENT: Exactly. That's the thing, all these years that's a long fucking time that...the person I am now was always there so now that it's out it's...(pause)

THERAPIST: But this is you when you get to remember yourself with so much criticism and so many voices telling you it's not good enough.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Well and the thing is ...the thing I'm proud of is that the reason I'm so good at it is cause I've been even alone or even with all that crap I've been working towards this. When you're 16, 15, whatever, you're sitting there trying to write serious poems, that's not just unusual but that's your apprenticeship, you're working towards this shit. [00:26:23] No matter what once I get up there it seems like "Oh yeah, this is what I'm supposed to be doing." That I definitely feel like wow, it's like against a lot of odds. And the same with music, it's like sometimes that fantasy world...as long as you're working, not just thinking, but I had the fantasy world but I was actually writing, I was composing, so in a way its preparing...that little bit of cockiness or like I'm meant to do whatever when the time comes you just kind of impersonate...what's the word?

THERAPIST: Embody?

CLIENT: You embody that. You're not faking, you're not...it's like you've been kind of training to do this. (pause) [00:27:40] It was really...I mean I'm just taken aback by the whole thing. When I think of all the people that were there, like those Assyrian friends I was telling you about were kind of like older brothers or whatever, they were all there and like people that I hadn't seen in years showed up. It was really...

THERAPIST: And friends?

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Your friends were there too?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Friends were there.

THERAPIST: So all different corners of your life.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Even that girl, there was this Assyrian girl I was so like smitten with years ago. I don't know if I ever told you about this. There were three sisters...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. So she was there with her mom, I thought that was really cool. And her mom, I didn't know her mom was such a poetry fan, she was like completely...and she knew my uncle really well years ago so she got like a little teary eyed cause I dedicated it to my uncle and...

THERAPIST: She knew your uncle, you're saying?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think she was there at his death bed or something.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: It was so crazy I didn't get a chance to concentrate but yeah she was very emotional, she's like "When he died it ripped my heart, I was like a little girl, not a little girl but.."

THERAPIST: Young?

CLIENT: A girl, yeah. [00:29:20] So yeah it was a funky combination of people. (pause)

THERAPIST: It can also bring together of not just two but many different worlds of yours in one place and finding a way of being all parts of you.

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: Not having to be this part and edit this part out a little bit and then be this part and edit this part. It sounds like you were the whole combination of who you are in front of a whole room full of these people.

CLIENT: That's right and actually that's what I felt proud of too, I was like "You know what, forget the poems..." I'm thinking this now but that's because of me, that's my network. That's my friendships and my connections to people that made that happen. Yeah it's the poems but people have to care enough about a person to fucking brave a freezing Wednesday night and that felt awesome. "This is how you do an event." It's not some fucking little tribal (laughs) bullshit amateur hour. You open it up to all kinds of people and you have a real conversation and we talked about Assyrian things and then people who weren't Assyrian said some things like "I can relate to that cause blah blah blah." That was my whole point that I'm not an Assyrian...I'm not even an American...I'm just an artist, that's all. [00:31:10] That felt really good, I'm proud of that. Hopefully it'll mean future, being asked to give little talks or whatever, that'd be great. (pause) I was really psyched, some people asked me about using art to work through emotions and all that it just felt so good to be like "I don't believe in that." (laughs) Art's not a therapy session, you know? If you're a hobbyist and it is, that's great, you should do that. People that are trying to make things that are beyond themselves, it's not about working through your issues. It felt good to not let myself get like...cause you want to appease people, it felt good to be like...I was a little bit of a not a hard ass, but I was very direct and confident in my opinions. [00:32:50] At one point when the director was saying that I was like "My job is to be provocative" and he said "I'm perfectly happy to contradict myself." That's awesome! I was like my job is not to be some kind of logical...I'm an artist so my job is to contradict myself, to be provocative and to just make art. That felt really good.

THERAPIST: Like the conversation with your mother it sounds like what feels good is holding on to your own mind even when there are other strong minds or opinions in the room.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And I said I could come back next week and say "Oh, I was thinking about it, she might be right." But that's fine with me.

THERAPIST: That for now this is what you think. You're going to share what you think and not just appease quickly.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's having more of your own self, having being solid.

CLIENT: Right, right. [00:34:03] (laughs) At one point when that composer was saying something about the Soviet Union and artists, like it really mattered, they kind of killed Mayakovski and Shostakovich, all this stuff, I made a joke "The day they the government starts assassinating Rita Dove and Maya Angelou that's the day when poetry is going to start to matter around here." I don't want them to be killed but when Obama's scared of a poet and decides to imprison them that's when something's going on.

THERAPIST: Interesting. (pause) [00:35:19]

CLIENT: It was interesting though that there were no...I'm not surprised but no one came like from the paper where I was the editor.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: No one came from there, no one came from the other Assyrian research organization, no one came from any of the universities. There was what's her name? There's like this Professor Emeritus of Art History that's Assyrian, she was there but at this point she's...It was a little I don't know. That kind of made my point for me that it's a little fucking exclusive club that god forbid someone has an amazing event that kind of puts them in their place a little bit. I thought that was really interesting. (pause)

THERAPIST: It felt like them not being there was part of...?

CLIENT: It's part of the problem. It's like it's not their event so why should I go? They're not...they haven't been asked to speak so why should they go and cheer someone else on? And I think they know me enough to know that I'm different and I do shit outside of the Assyrian world, that I'm kind of a threat to them a little bit. I mean I'm not, it's nonsense but just in those kinds of settings that I can talk, I can win people over, I can really hold people's attention. They have a monopoly on that. [00:37:04] Like I've never been asked to speak at any April 24th things. I don't know why but I know the day I do is...those are the most boring, regurgitated non-sensical events, I don't go to any of them but if I ever do go it's because I think I would do really, really well. I think people would be...but that doesn't really serve their interest because then I'm kind of getting attention and I'm kind of you know, stepping on their toes a little bit. That's what happens I think in these small little ethnic bullshit little circles. Everything's a power game, that' s their little world, they're powerful people in that little world.

THERAPIST: These are Assyrian professors you're talking about?

CLIENT: People that run these papers or like the research center or yeah some of the professors or other organization people. [00:38:15] The same fucking people year after year, they just have a foothold. I mean that research organization in Belmont has very close ties to the jackass here at the university. They never ask me to speak there, they know me super well. Even before, I'm from here, they know me. I don't think they even sell my book in their store so it's a little douchey. Not a little douchey, a lot douchey.

THERAPIST: And you think it's...that's what I'm trying to understand. Is it just overlooking?

CLIENT: It's a combination. Some of it's just underappreciating what I do and just kind of like "Well poetry, I don't know what he does, rock n roll, something." There's a lot of that I think but then I really think there's also, the ones that do know me know that I'm....how well liked I am, that I get along with...they know who the fucking deal is so they're like "No, why should we let him into our country club? This is my domain." I know who the players are, we have a little thing going here and it works cause they're all fucking boring and they all say the same shit over and over again and that works for them. [00:39:34] And also because they know I'll criticize them too, I'm not going to...you know? I have no affiliation, I don't give a shit. I operate outside of Assyrian stuff so...I have no problem saying things that need to be said. It's interesting.

THERAPIST: It's a theme and I don't, I guess listening to you I don't know how much of it is your transference to them versus how it is in the culture versus how it actually is.

CLIENT: That's a good point too. I do wonder about that sometimes. Some of it could be they're not even thinking about me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Maybe they'd love to have me, not all of them, some of them I think I'm right about but it could be that some of them are just living their lives and everyone's busy and maybe they'd love to have me do something, who knows? So you're right. I'm not trying to...they're not sitting around finding ways to keep me out of something. [00:40:49]

THERAPIST: Because your mother did Brian, and that is a piece of what you carry inside you. The stories you started to tell me about the undercutting and undermining, unconsciously, not if you asked her if she was doing it, she'd say "No of course I'm not" but competitive with you, envious of you, unable to just simply be in a place of loving what you do and being so proud of you as her son.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Maybe feeling jealous because she wishes she could start over again or something but not having that get in the way of loving and supporting you. In fact it would come out as little moments of destroying you. So I could imagine you could carry that, it actually happened with her, around and see that a lot of places and maybe it is happening some of that but maybe it's not too?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe the people who weren't there last night, not cause they didn't want to be.

CLIENT: You're totally right. I think what it probably is, is a tiny percentage I'm right about and the rest of it I'm not right about. That's how I see it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's...[00:41:58]

THERAPIST: And the tiny percentage, you've spoken about that even culturally, that that's kind of in the family even that of course you're picking up on something that's there but it may not be there in some places too.

CLIENT: It has nothing to do with me. Right.

THERAPIST: Maybe the more again you see it might not be there, the more you get braver in going and saying "Hey want me to come give a talk?"

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: "Here's my book!"

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: "Let me know if you want me to come?"

CLIENT: That's right. That doesn't become such a me versus them kind of thing. No you're absolutely right. You could even argue as much as my experience at that newspaper wasn't great and I wasn't really treated the way I should have been, the fact is they gave me the job at a very young age and that job only goes to people that are party members of that political party. I'm not. I think I'm one of the only very, very few people that have gotten the editor job and not been...so that says something.

THERAPIST: Yes it does.

CLIENT: You know, so yeah it didn't go great and they're kind of like dumbasses, whatever, but it's still a gesture, it's something. So no, you're right. [00:43:12]

THERAPIST: Tomorrow?

CLIENT: 11:30?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks Tricia.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: You too.

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