TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hey. You don't need that today.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Is it warm out now?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's been on since morning.

CLIENT: Damn it.

THERAPIST: Why damn it?

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Why damn it?

CLIENT: Damn it what?

THERAPIST: Why do you say damn it?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know. I always say damn it. It's part of the shtick, you don't know the shtick?

THERAPIST: Apparently not.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Apparently not.

CLIENT: Maybe not yeah.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: It's really nice out actually. I was thinking about something on the way here, I was thinking the other thing that might be causing me like anxiety when I'm here now is I was noticing when I'm here, I'm anxious now. I'm not anxious when I'm not here as much, it comes and goes obviously. It's because things have changed so much like sometimes I don't know what to talk about. I guess that's good in a way even though I know of course there's a shitload of stuff to....but yeah, it's just so different that I think "What should I talk about?" Not all the time of course but lately there have been some days where I'm like... [00:01:44]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: The one thing I can say is it didn't take my mom long to go back to her old self. Yesterday I stopped by to visit her, take Cecelia down and she just...I just feel bad for her now, it didn't bother me at all but she still couldn't...it's weird how she went...at the event she was genuinely proud, she wasn't faking it, she hugged me, she whispered "I love you, I'm so proud of you" in my ear but then last night she was back to herself, she was like "The event went really well..." but there was something kind of holding back a little bit and she always does this with things like my music or writing, at the end of whatever, its not really a conversation cause I don't even engage her that much but she'll just kind of give this defeatist "Well good luck son, you're working hard, you deserve it," but it's a very kind of like "hmm" so I don't know if she's just projecting her own...well she clearly is actually, it's her own I don' t know what but it's just sad. Now it's just sad. [00:03:13] And the thing is I didn't miss a beat. I was like "Well it was more than a success. That was the best Assyrian organized event here in years." There were over a hundred fucking...and they weren't all...yeah. I let her know very clearly that I deserved it, it was an amazing event, blah, blah, blah, whatever but it's just sad that...sad for her. It's too bad.

THERAPIST: You can feel how her own self defeat...

CLIENT: Yeah because really what do you need to see? Do you know what I mean? Like that's very strange, now I'm just baffled by it. It's unfortunate.

THERAPIST: And you can see it now and let it bounce off you more but as your kid or an adolescent...

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: That would have to feel defeating of your accomplishment gets really minimized in the way she says it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like it's not that big, you really haven't made it, good luck and I hope you did but I don't think you did...it's as though it didn't happen.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's strange. [00:04:36]

THERAPIST: I mean it reminds me of your saying yesterday how it's going to take a while for this to settle, it's going to take a while, it's going to take a while. She's not holding in her memory that it happened, that it was real, that it happened.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: It's as though she's still talking about "Well good luck I hope something happens."

CLIENT: When something like that happened every single day it's like a real sickness, like somehow once it's over, I don't know what, it's freaking weird. It's her and the other one's crazier, way crazier, my mom has some semblance of fucking...but they both have this thing, it's very unfortunate. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's so enduring, this self-defeat, the defeatism of your family, it's not her...

CLIENT: And it's especially in her and my aunt, I wonder, I guess maybe their ages or something oldest and second oldest? Maybe they got the brunt of my grandfather's kind of...he was so gruff and kind of a depressed case in some ways. I just don't know. [00:06:04]

THERAPIST: They're women?

CLIENT: Yeah, they're girls, he didn't pay any...the youngest daughter was maybe... she got a little more, she was always kind of the favorite, the little princess, and I think because of that she was a little more up, you know, but these two. Thank god my mom...in a weird way is more like my grandfather in that she has...my grandfather was the way he was but at the same time he was on top of his shit, he was kind of...I don't know. He didn't have any of that crazy...my other aunt, I don't know what's going on there but when my mom broke her fucking hip there was no...she was like "Yeah, I need to have a hip replacement, medicine, whatever, IV's, sure." But with the other one I don't know what's going on there.

THERAPIST: The other one that's your aunt the singer?

CLIENT: Yep. The one who like overprotects her daughter and still hasn't visited since my grandmother had her first heart attack. Can you imagine that shit? [00:07:26] It's unbelievable, it's really unbelievable. It's almost like a Howard Hughes, you know what I mean? Like just...so I'm at least, especially being an only child, I'm grateful that I don't have to worry, you know what I mean? Like my mom has her friends and she (laughs) whatever issues we have she's a normal woman out in the world, but my other aunt has no friends, she has...I don't know man, it's sad. I don't understand. It's bad for her kids, especially her daughter but yeah so I was just like "wow", we're back to...It wasn't as bad as saying "Oh, men are going to be after..." but it's still...I don't know.

THERAPIST: You can hear it?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's just sad.

THERAPIST: For you.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Sad for you. [00:08:40]

CLIENT: Yeah it is and it isn't, I mean now it's more...I have no patience for it now, I kind of shut her up with fact and with reality and then I just don't...

THERAPIST: You can do that now when you couldn't do that before?

CLIENT: Yeah of course. Even a year ago that would have really hurt me, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's what you're saying is sad?

CLIENT: Yeah, the history of it and what it did to me.

THERAPIST: How you thought about yourself for so long.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: I mean even in that is the tone of at the end of the day you're alone and what's the point in anything?

CLIENT: Right. (pause)

THERAPIST: What's it like to come here though back to where you started to come here feeling like you don't know what to say?

CLIENT: Well it just makes me anxious. That's the thing then I just feel...

THERAPIST: And you know anxious about what?

CLIENT: Almost like I'm nervous, like I just don't know what to talk about. [00:10:04] Again because I'm not the type that just lays there and you know, so I get...(pause) But I still look forward to coming in, it's not like I'm not like looking forward to it's just...

THERAPIST: What's the type that just lays there?

CLIENT: Well I think some people are more open to just being...just being. I'm sure it's also that I get anxious because I know there's plenty to talk about but either I'm not or I don't know where to start or I don't know how to, whatever it is.

THERAPIST: It's like the absence of the external update as much and you could feel like then there's nothing or there's so much it's hard to reach what...

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Your dad, your trip to Oregon, your move to Oregon, planning your trip.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: It does feel like a trip in my memory of...

CLIENT: Well if you mean like an LSD trip yeah that's what it felt like. [00:11:33]

THERAPIST: It feels so unintegrated and it's like this journey you went on...

CLIENT: It's like a black out.

THERAPIST: And you're back to reality.

CLIENT: What are those things called? Like a vision quest then you kind of don't remember what happened. I still, like I say I don't understand that whole...I mean four years is a long fucking time when you're that age and fucked up and in LA, I don't know what was going on there. I don't know what I was thinking. (pause) You know what was crazy? This is somehow related. You know who showed up at the reading was this cousin, my second cousin, did I ever tell you the story about my second cousin who when I was 17 I was kind of like in love with her...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Then they kind of humiliated me and shit. But now I'm friends with her husband who came to his senses and all that stuff. [00:12:53] She was there.

THERAPIST: Oh...

CLIENT: I've not seen her in years. My mom too was like "What the fuck was Marla doing there?" (laughs) Really crazy, none of us have seen her in a long, long time. Weird, really weird.

THERAPIST: She was 17 and you were 17?

CLIENT: We started becoming friends when I was like 16, 15 and she was like 25.

THERAPIST: This is your mom's cousin?

CLIENT: My mom's first cousin.

THERAPIST: Your mom's first cousin, okay.

CLIENT: Marla's father and my grandmother were brother and sister, so that makes Marla...That was just really strange that she was there. I kind of didn't think twice about it because I was so inundated. I quickly said "Hi", quick kind of awkward hug. She was like "Wow, that's really heavy stuff, it's not easy to write poems like that." I was like "What the fuck?" Weird. And also I'd never seen her...I mean her ex was there with his wife, I've never seen that whole configuration in one place. Amazing.

THERAPIST: It's her ex now? [00:14:11]

CLIENT: Oh yeah they got divorced a long time ago. And as soon as they did it was like the spell was broken and he was back to being a normal person. Yeah that was very strange. It's like now I'm remembering various people I said hello to but anyway...That's also part of that period between like 17 and 20 right before my dad died, right after my dad died where it was just craziness.

THERAPIST: And seeing her is like another little blast from the past?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Pulled you back? Those very fuzzy periods.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean you talk often about the stuckness around writing is part of your story and I think it gets stuck inside. It still feels like a trip.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It's not storied yet. (pause) You've told me about her and you remember her in kind of a bubble in the story but not in a context of not where you were in your life, not what exactly it meant, and what it moved in to.

CLIENT: She was like my best friend, I mean I was madly in love with her it was crazy. [00:15:47] We hung out all the time. Obviously I looked up to her, she was cool, she was one of the first people that kind of...she noticed my aesthetic before I kind of noticed it, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I was kind of dressing a certain way but she had names...I don't know what the word it, she made me aware of that and kind of helped me cultivate it and introduced me to music and whatever, she was all artsy and shit. She was beautiful, she paid attention to me, she took me seriously.

THERAPIST: And she saw you, just noticed your style.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, she encouraged me but then she also hurt me because...well she didn't mean to hurt me but because I was projecting (laughs) I secretly, just constantly pining after her. I would get jealous, I would get hurt if she...insane, insane.

THERAPIST: How much older was she?

CLIENT: At least ten years, if not 12 or 13 years.

THERAPIST: She didn't know for a long time that you even had...

CLIENT: No she didn't know and...well maybe she did but she's kind of enjoying the attention, I don't know. But then I declared it to her, like I wrote a whole letter...I was way too serious back then and so in a cultural bubble...I mean the way she was too. She was an immigrant, she came over when she was a child but her mom and dad were like fucking villagers. Lovely people but my great uncle was a complete villager. [00:17:33] He certainly did not take his daughter seriously. There was one point even where he forbade her to see me cause he thought it was strange...you know, what are we doing, where...He just didn't...So I wonder even if for her, most women that age would've been like "That's cute, he's got...clearly this kid has a crush on me but I'm not going to..." you know what I mean? In a way that's weird too, to hang out so much and I think it was because she was in some suspended...you know what I mean? Probably hadn't dated really. She was beautiful but...she had these old world kind of probably conflicting things and all this stuff.

THERAPIST: So there's something in it for her too in a way even though she might not have...

CLIENT: Yeah, attention and something innocent...Crazy.

THERAPIST: But also then confusing for you? I mean she was ten years older...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It was like why are you hanging out with me?

THERAPIST: Of course! [00:18:54]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: You wrote her a letter, your very quick to say "I was just too serious" dismissive again.

CLIENT: No I wasn't trying to be dismissive I'm just like...it was insane. I wrote her this crazy love letter.

THERAPIST: What was insane when you say that?

CLIENT: I mean at that age? It's like nothing in me was like "What am I doing?" Ten, twelve, thirteen years older than me? Second cousin? Engaged to that guy?

THERAPIST: She was engaged already?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. So it was like "What the fuck am I doing?" It's insane. It's one thing to have...if she wasn't my cousin and if she was a little bit younger maybe, like yes, but even then, even the way I did it was so innocent/serious. Other guys would have just made a move or something. But it was all so...even though we're not old or whatever but things were different kind of to some extent back then. Now people are having sex when they're like 14 or whatever but I think it wasn't that unusual maybe to be more innocent but I was really on the extreme side of it. I really had only kissed like one girl, two, didn't ask any girls out in high school. [00:20:25] The serious part was I wasn't even thinking about having sex with her per se, I was like really in love with her.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. It's this intensity of feeling without a lot of...it's kind of in a bubble, without a lot of the reality.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Who she actually was, how old she was, how old you were...

CLIENT: Exactly. Just like a lot of things back then were. Being a rock star, being whatever. Some of that stuff has served me well, I mean even maybe the thing with her has served me well. Maybe that's why I now am successful with women because I'm not really...Even when it's a girl I'm just trying to hit on, it's usually very genuine. I'm not trying to...The weird thing was she said that back then. Years later I remembered this phone conversation where she had said, I don't remember what it was but something had hurt me or I felt jealous. She was like "I'll never forget. You're going to grow up to be a heartbreaker. In a couple of years, you don't know how well you're going to do." I of course, in one ear and out the other, I didn't really think about it, but years later it's like "Whoa, that's weird." [00:21:50]

THERAPIST: What's so interesting is that you didn't hear your mom saying that about you. You're going to grow up and be a heartbreaker?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: This is someone...it's semi-peer, semi-adult figure, saying you're great. "People are going to love you. I see this about you and I feel this about you."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It must have felt good at that time.

CLIENT: It did but I was so hurt that I was being rejected and I was so...I mean you're a fucking teenager, insecure, embarrassed, I told this...

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And I wondered after this event, I was like "That's weird, should I..." I mean it is weird, we have a crazy history and we don't...I've never, we've never tried to...I don't know. Maybe (laughs) this whole compassion thing, I was like "I don't know, she got divorced, she has no children, maybe I should reach out and say hi" I don't know. Obviously now that things are normal (laughs) lucid...[00:23:23] Her father died...

THERAPIST: She was very important to you for a time.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And you to her.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's kind of sad that we weren't able to...but I'm leaving out the fact that she was kind of...I don't know if she is now but she was also very difficult and kind of manipulative. That's kind of a big thing I'm leaving out.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So that's why I kind of...the way that whole thing ended...

THERAPIST: So you wrote her this letter and then what happens from there?

CLIENT: I don't remember, obviously nothing happened but then I think basically told Jeff. She just showed him the letter.

THERAPIST: Who she's engaged to?

CLIENT: Yeah, so then they humiliated me in the house of this woman who was the moderator, her and her husband, in front of a bunch of people.

THERAPIST: Saying what?

CLIENT: It's so convoluted, we were all playing music, remember her husband's the guy that taught me music?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So Jeff would come too to those things. There were a couple of guys that he would just for free...yeah, just saying...it actually wasn't her so much. Jeff was, and I don't blame him, see this is her...She has no reason to tell him anything. All she had to do was be like "This is a kid, how sweet, let's just move on." There was no reason to tell...and him, I don't blame him. [00:24:48] He probably felt threatened, whatever it was. He was younger than her too. So at the time he was only like 22 maybe so I think he was at least six years younger than her.

THERAPIST: Oh...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's also unusual.

CLIENT: Yeah but see again it's that whole bubble, kind of...

THERAPIST: That she had gone on clearly, not just you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. He just said "You know you're a fake, you're two face..." he really laid in to me.

THERAPIST: That's a different...all you do is her?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Where is that even coming from? Fake and two face?

CLIENT: Well because she had probably told him...showed him this letter and all that and I don't know, I guess he meant that I, you know, I've been secretly trying to get his woman. I don't know. Who the fuck knows what he meant? I just...he was probably angry and laid in to me.

THERAPIST: In front of other people?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Again which is also traumatizing because I was the youngest in that group. I was like seventeen, barely eighteen so I looked up to all these people. It was kind of brutal.

THERAPIST: Did anyone say anything or did you say something back?

CLIENT: One guy I think was like "Jeff, calm down." I don't think I said anything. I mean what am I going to say? I actually don't even remember.

THERAPIST: Or did you leave?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah I did leave. I remember I was half kind of crying and just furious like on the sidewalk. [00:26:27] Craziness. So that didn't need to happen like she could've been like, you know....oh and she did say some personal stuff about the family in front of all these fucking strangers. Not strangers but not family. She was like "Your family this..." and I was like it's the same family so you're insulting your own family in front of all these people? I don't know it was just...

THERAPIST: Your family what?

CLIENT: It was something about like...her whole other thing was she had an insecurity thing because her mom was a complete fucking backwards peasant, you know, and very unattractive. I don't know how she became...I think my uncle was such a handsome guy (laughs) but my great aunt was just a very unattractive peasant woman. Nice enough lady but just very simple and gruff and ignorant. So I think she had this pent up stuff about my mom, my aunt, all of these beautiful women who are talented and have all these amazing friends. I think there was some...immigrants, working class anger which I have too but completely misplaced. [00:27:45]

THERAPIST: And that's what she was yelling at about your family?

CLIENT: Something like "You think you're better than other people" just silly nonsense.

THERAPIST: How awful for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean the funny thing is, ultimately it didn't affect me in the sense of it didn't affect my standing, all those people stayed my friends and not hers. That wasn't the reason per se but over time people just saw that she was difficult and kind of manipulative or weird or just something about her was not ...wherever she went something kind of confrontational followed her. And like I said now her ex is a sweetheart, he's a great guy. He has a great wife, they have kids, it's like he...I'm sure he was also under her spell. She was beautiful and he was younger than her, both his parents died so...easy to mold. [00:29:02]

THERAPIST: She sounds a little bit borderline personality disorder, she's kind of needy and just complicated.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So you know the reality is you didn't lose anyone in that group but still we also know you don't...in high school you know the reality is you had friends, the feeling of being alone or being unloved.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: It had to still happen even though it didn't change anything it actually...

CLIENT: No that was very humiliating. And also it's something most seventeen year olds...it was such an adult kind of humiliation.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? It wasn't like teenagers riding on each other or getting into a fight where it's your peers. These were older people I looked up to and just bizarre. It was very....hard.

THERAPIST: There are also hints of a repetition of your relationship with your mother in that it feels like another traumatic reenactment of the feeling of unrequited love. And I don't mean romantic but just affection and fondness...

CLIENT: Something unconditional.

THERAPIST: You know it's coming from you unconditionally to her and then it's not...you get it for a second and then its slammed in your face as something critical or humiliating or...you know, and we talked about that as a pattern of even who you then gravitated towards from her on upwards about falling for somebody who in a way that's sort of what's going to happen.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's the script that's going to play out, that's not what's happening as much now but this is such an extreme scenario of the ultimate confrontation, humiliation in public.

CLIENT: Right, right. [00:31:09]

THERAPIST: Even though it's clear it's actually not you, a lot of this, it's her.

CLIENT: Well that's the thing I mean, I think what hurt most was forget the romantic, my declaration, like it would've been so amazing if she had just pulled me aside at some point and just said "You know, I love you, we're cousins, I'm your big sister..." that's really all that had to happen because almost as soon as I wrote this letter, I think within a week or two, I like woke up. You're at that point where your kind of growing kind of fast or whatever, I was like "What the fuck?" And that was it, I was like "Oh, that was a huge mistake." So it wasn't like for years after that...you know what I mean? As soon as it was verbalized in a way, I was like this is...all she had to do was, I mean I was a kid, I was a fucking kid, but to make it into such an adult thing...If I was her age, you know, a grown man with a life and I'm trying to pursue this woman, that's a totally different story but I think that's what hurt. It's like "Wow man, you can't just be like a family member?" [00:32:31]

THERAPIST: Ina way there is unrequited love in childhood but it can be handled in very different ways.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can be humiliated and rejected or you can be...have a parent say "I'm in love with you too."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "I would love it if only we could get married" or something.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: But that expresses love but also a boundary that's very clear and the kid can feel like "Okay, at least she loves me still."

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah it's not a big deal at all, it's a very common...yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, she treats you as though you're her peer kind of like...

CLIENT: But just fucked up for her?

THERAPIST: Exactly. She could say "This is so sweet and the nicest letter I've ever seen."

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: "You'll find someone just like me one day."

CLIENT: Whatever, yeah exactly. [00:33:39] (pause) It's funny what you were saying earlier about the writing? It was kind of cool yesterday at practice we had these three songs where I switch guitars so different tuning and stuff and I was like "You know, maybe for the record release, now that there are enough songs, maybe just stick with my Fender and not have to..." There's something about having to stop and switch guitars, you don't want to break the momentum and it was kind of cool they were all, it was funny, they all agreed, it just kind of came out. They were like "Yeah, we love those songs, but there's something about the new songs that's...basically better." They're looser and kind of a little more interesting. It was cool, I was like "Alright that means this is all working, whatever's going on." I feel that way but it's great to hear it.

THERAPIST: People are noticing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Something changing, freeing...[00:35:32] (pause) {00:37:00] Where'd you just go?

CLIENT: I don't know, just thinking about songs and...I don't know, just like nothing specific really. The songs, the show...trying to get the money for the record. I don't really know who to ask. Or part of me is like I'll just wait for my next paycheck...use all of that for that and just figure it out for the next two weeks or something. [00:38:15] I'm like...I really got to figure out, I don't know. It's crazy when you just want to make like an extra grand a month and then like in the big picture it's so...it's really not that much money. But it is, it's unbelievable, just that little difference, you know? I think I'm really going to talk to George about the root beer business thing.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Be like "Dude I'm really serious about this." I'm going to do something. (pause) [00:39:28]

THERAPIST: I wonder if there's any chance there are obstacles inside to make you more money, somehow there are emotional ones?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Of course. I think that all the time, I mean there's something weird to me about being who I am, obviously I get along with everyone, I have skills, I'm talented, so how is it that for some reason moneys never been on my radar? Is it that I was rebelling so much against my mom like I just went the other extreme? I don't know what...and I didn't have guidance to be like "It's important to save and here's how credit cards work...student loans..." I don't know. (pause) The other big obstacle was I refused to be a grunt for other people and that I don't feel so bad about. I just feel I'd rather...cause in some ways that worked. I mean yeah I'm poor but I have gotten to do a lot of amazing things because I've stuck to certain ideas, you know? I don't want to work three jobs and I don't feel embarrassed about that. I don't have kids...but that is an obstacle because that means you have to figure out either business or you got to figure out...you know this job would have been great if I lived closer. It's not bad money but...[00:41:15]

THERAPIST: Or if you didn't have outstanding bills?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: Single people can live on that salary with no problem but you have these other things.

CLIENT: Well bills and also my career as a musician isn't funded, I'm funding it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: So yeah. (pause) But yeah I have noticed, that's the thing about the grant writing . Something even there has loosened up like now I want to make money just because I know I can and you know, I want to be able to do things and not...it's silly that I have to worry about some of this stuff, you know what I mean? Six hundred dollars? What the fuck is that? I mean if I was anyone else this record would have already been out because I would've just put it on my credit card. I've kind of had enough of that. It seems absolutely absurd. (pause) [00:42:38]

THERAPIST: I wonder if it's hard to imagine being so free that you could lie down on the couch?

CLIENT: To imagine it? Yeah, it's kind of weird. (pause)

THERAPIST: You have a smirk.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: You have a smirk. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah cause I'm like "That's her way of saying I should lie down on the couch!" (laughs)

THERAPIST: It might help. It might help with your anxiety about what to say as odd as it might feel more anxious at first but then it's just open. The field is open in a different way.

CLIENT: Maybe next week I'll try it or something.

THERAPIST: What's it like for me to say that though? It was your reading between the lines? (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah, no it's not, I mean I was assuming eventually, you've brought it up before so...and you know what you're doing, I'm sure you're right. [00:43:59] Yeah I just feel a little shy or whatever.

THERAPIST: It's never a have to and it doesn't mean it will help. It's just a tool.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No I'm sure you're right, I'm sure there's something about not making eye contact or feeling like you have to make conversation.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) [00:45:15] So Brian next week, Friday is March already, I think you...

CLIENT: Oh fuck.

THERAPIST: (laughs) My schedule changes in March for the semester so that's when we can back to 3:10 if you want to do that?

CLIENT: 3:10 on Fridays?

THERAPIST: On Fridays.

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: Is that better?

CLIENT: Hell yeah!

THERAPIST: I also have earlier times but...

CLIENT: Nope. That's awesome.

THERAPIST: Okay and that should be permanent then until at least the summer.

CLIENT: So 1:00, 12:50 and 3:10?

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Nice. That's awesome.

THERAPIST: I'll see you Wednesday.

CLIENT: Alright. Tricia I'm going to come back either today or Monday and drop off a check. I'm sorry I was rushing so...Alright so I'll see you Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Alright, have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: You too.

END TRANSCRIPT