TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Ah, it's nice in here. What's up? It's nice. Yeah. This is all good, this 3 o'clock thing? Way better. I feel a little more rounded. Woke up with a tension headache though, so I didn't sleep well last night. It took me a while to-and I had like a weird panic attack after practice yesterday? I went to my friend's bar. Just me and him having beers. I don't know, I suddenly felt really weird. I suddenly felt it was like an old school, slightly weird anxiety, I felt suddenly like hyper-aware of myself and like just felt weird and a little bit off. So weird. I got over it, but ...

THERAPIST: Something in particular you were aware of?

CLIENT: Nah, I think it's just the state I'm in right now. I still not-I (exhale) this is just unbelievable. I just-there's a way-I come down the street and I turn on, what is thator whatever right there. So, I'm going down there-that's a two-way street.

THERAPIST: It is?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is it?

CLIENT: Isn't it? I think-I'm pretty sure it's a two-way street. Yeah, because I'm pretty sure I've been down there when the snow was bad and cars were turning in and-I'm going to double check but I'm pretty sure it's a two-way street. Two cars are in front of me, I just casually get in the left lane in a two-way street and as I'm turning like, ‘what the fuck am I doing?' Like I'm just completely preoccupied with too much stuff and now like the stuff we've talked about and feeling edgy and-I had another fucking band cancel for the record release. I mean it's in two fucking weeks.

THERAPIST: That's disappointing.

CLIENT: It's unbeliev-I just posted-I know it's not a big deal, it's not like-it's just venting but on Facebook I was like, ‘you know what? Hey, people, if you've even a sliver of an inkling, like, that you might not be able to do a show, then fucking say no. I mean I know things happen or whatever, but two cancellations in the last-like come on, man, it's uncool. People are working hard to make this happen. I don't know, I'm just frustrated. I don't know. And then yesterday like I was, we were talking about the drummer again and he's just kind of, he's good but then on some songs he just doesn't get it and I don't know, I start feeling like I'm on overload for sure.

(Pause): [00:03:24 00:03:46]

THERAPIST: It sounds like there are a lot of kind of psychological balls in the air-it's hard to keep them all juggling, keep track of them all.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Internally.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's making me like a spaz. (Sniff).

(Pause): [00:03:58 00:04:20]

THERAPIST: Although "spaz' is a bit harsh.

CLIENT: Well, but it's making me like feel, you know, like I'm becoming like a nutty professor, like I can't keep things straight in my mind and I'm got all these lists and I just feel like overwhelmed, like it's just all of a sudden in the last week or two I was just.

THERAPIST: I know there's a wait to feel great, but on the other hand you also have been taking on more and more and more because of things feeling possible inside. So there is more on your plate, in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am trying to remind myself that I mean it's all good things, I mean, even if a band did cancel, if worse comes to worse there's going to be a show with three bands, but there's going to be a fucking show and people are going to come out to see us. I mean it's our record release show, so. I don't know. If worse comes to worse after us we'll throw on an iPod and have a dance party. I don't fucking know, but yeah, like I try to remind myself that I was doing this this morning and my head was just killing me. But, yeah, I just don't know. I don't know if it's that things are just going well and there's something in me trying to just draw me back to it's so, I'm not used to this, that's trying to pull me back to feeling all fucked up and you know, just shut myself in. I don't know. I mean, yeah. The drummer's not whatever, but we've played shows and they've all been great. I mean, we'll revisit it after the show and figure it out. If I need to try someone else out, I will. You know, it's kind of not, you know what I mean, no one's holding a gun-like I feel like that's my mom's kind of thinking. Do you know what I mean? It's my band. I put this band together. If I really feel like this just isn't working out I'll talk to him and explain and whatever and if it kind of can't change, then just try some other drummers out. It's not ideal, but that shit happens all the time. I think, yeah, I'm jut not used to all this stuff and with stuff comes stresses, you know. Things happen, you know, like much worse every day. I mean they're trying to do things, it doesn't work out and things get cancelled, I don't know. I think it's a combination of I'm not used to it and that old voice kind of feeds on that stuff or something.

THERAPIST: There are edges of the old voice but it actually sounds like even more so. There is, that you, because things have felt better you've been busier. You've been doing more things which means there are more things to be on top of, there are more things that are going to go minerly (ph) wrong because that's what happens to everybody. Right? It doesn't all go right. Some things go wrong every time you take on any one thing. So, there are things you have to worry about, everything's going well, there are things you have to worry about, but more of it in a way. So, it's the, your mind's not used to the ordinariness of daily stresses. [00:07:26]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I think that's what it is. Because it's used to catastrophizing (sp?) everything and turning it physical and whatever, just totally like defeatist or whatever. Now it has opportunity to do that because there's all this stuff going on. So, that side of me forgets that it's like what you said, like it's all good stuff and yeah, some stuff might kind of shit happens, you know?

THERAPIST: Of course it does. And even ...

CLIENT: But it's not ...

THERAPIST: ...if you are pursuing any adventure, things come up that are frustrating, disappointing.

CLIENT: I think the funny thing though is that I'm even handling it. Like I already put out the voice in my head like, ‘I don't give a shit' and I was like, ‘well, should I put this on?' and you know what? Fuck it. I don't like Facebook, but it's a perfect place to vent about something like that. I have like 2,000 friends on there. I don't give a fuck if they see it or not. It's just not cool, you know? So in a way that's very, it's not like I'm cowering in the, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, I'm already like, fuck it, if that's the way it's going to be I'll even pay someone 50 bucks out of my own pocket to come and you know we'll bill it as a CD release show/dance party. After we're done we can do an hour of whatever. I don't know, it's just...

THERAPIST: That's the part that doesn't feel old voicey.

CLIENT: No, no, no, that's not old.

THERAPIST: It really feels sounds more like dealing with the new.

CLIENT: Well, the old voice would have been like, ‘oh, this isn't meant to happen. This means the show's going to go totally awful, it's going to be all fucked up and bad, there aren't going to be a lot of people there.' It would just find ways to pile on instead of being just like this is just what happens. I mean, it happens, musicians are flaky.

THERAPIST: And even being able to be irritated at them for canceling rather than...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...feeling down on yourself.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And go all down on them for doing that.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

(Pause): [00:09:43 00:09:50]

THERAPIST: Although maybe you're also saying that that's all there on the surface, that that's what's driving how you respond to it, that there still may be also some voice.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. The ten-I mean, the tension, see I was feeling pretty good up until I heard about it and now I have the tension headache back a little bit, I feel a little off. So, yeah, it's like this is mostly good on the surface but I feel really jittery on the inside. But again like you said, who wouldn't in a way. I mean you're doing poetry readings, there's all this shit going on. I'm doing another reading next Friday. Like there's a lot going on, so...

(Pause): [00:10:30 00:11:09]

CLIENT: Maybe the other thing, too, is like a part of it is like, ‘damn, so even though I'm feeling so great and I'm doing all this stuff, when am I just going to feel less,' you know what I mean? Like (inaudible) (Laughs) if that's what it is. Part of me is like, ‘damn it, I'm doing so much better and I am doing all this stuff so why are, you know, shouldn't I be a little more, I don't know. Or, I'm just over thinking it and I am being (inaudible). Does that sound like I'm having a panic, you know, I had a little bit of an anxiety attack yesterday, but it was very, very mild and passing. So, I don't know if I'm just used to over thinking, like why am I this, why am I, you know what I mean? Why am I jittery? Why am I, you know-that's not good either. You can't over, I mean obviously there are a lot of deeper things that we talk about but I'm just saying it's probably not good all day with every little thing. I'm like, ‘why can't I be more calm?' I am calm. (Laughs) That's one of the things that anybody that knows me knows, like, ‘gee, you're always so calm.' [00:11:20]

THERAPIST: (Chuckles)

CLIENT: And yet, I'm constantly badgering myself wondering why...

(Pause): [00:12:18 00:12:34]

CLIENT: I mean I guess maybe that's what it is. That's what it really, it is, like my mother's, all this bullshit, it's so deep, maybe that's just hard to battle that I guess.

(Pause): [00:12:49 00:12:56]

THERAPIST: What you're talking about is being aware of the running stream of self-criticism.

CLIENT: Yeah, like instead of just chilling out and being like, ‘oh that sucks, whatever,' or being like you said just legitimately kind of annoyed or even a little bit jittery, or whatever, but not then being so aware of it and like constantly monitoring it because that becomes like hyper-vigilance or whatever. I was just like, ‘gee.'

And it's kind of annoys me because it makes you feel like, I mean that's another way of putting myself down, but I mean there's just so many people going through such difficult stressful day-not just one day, not just two days-that's just their life. So, I just, I'm not saying I should be skipping down the street but this is really the happiest I've ever been and that's a big fucking deal. So, that must be my mom's side, it's just like never, it's never enough or it's never (clears throat).

THERAPIST: Yeah, but something's kicked up about it, maybe some, it hadn't been quite feeling like this and now in the last week or so it sounds like the anxiety feels stronger.

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe, also, maybe that reading triggered something. You know, it was a big deal. It was my uncle's 50th anniversary of his death, maybe there's been stuff kind of-when I went to the church and got emotional and stuff. I don't know. The Kelly thing. I don't know.

(Pause): [00:14:35 00:14:43]

CLIENT: Maybe like things are so good that it's really putting the spotlight on this thread of, this bullshit, all this, maybe.

(Pause): [00:14:55 00:15:04]

THERAPIST: We were also, we were talking about yesterday that if things were good what are you closing the door on?

CLIENT: That's kind of what I mean.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (cross talk) [00:15:16]

CLIENT: (inaudible) exposing this thing, the thread that is not really ...

THERAPIST: (inaudible) your father is what I'm thinking of.

CLIENT: Oh, well, I guess I kind of meant all of it, like just stuff like I'm kind of severing and kind of trying to put perspective on and putting it behind me or whatever you want to call it. Maybe that's what it is, I don't know.

(Pause): [00:15:37 00:15:46]

CLIENT: I mean even with Kelly. Like last night I was talking to Stu and on my way home, you know even with that I'm getting all kind of nervousy and edgy about it but really I'm even handling that well. I mean it's going ver-I'm just taking it one day at a time and I'm also not beating myself up for feeling like, well, I mean, you know-we're not married, we're dating so you know, if I was to meet someone who was Assyrian and it's like, in other words like I think I have a much healthier, it's not that old, like she's on a pedestal, it's all about that and then suddenly it's a nightmare. This is more like we're two adults and she's, I mean she is amazing. I really care about her but I'm also slightly, I mean it think it's kind of legitimate to whether you're dating someone to think about things and think about, is this the right person? Or, I mean, they have a kid or if they're not Assyrian. They're not, you don't want to use those excuses to sabotage stuff, but I think, you know.

THERAPIST: And maybe that's the question is how much of what's going on around that is something like it's going to well, so you're going to pull back, or how much of it is just feeling like more genuine confident feeling out (cross talk) (inaudible) [00:17:15]

CLIENT: I think most of it is kind of more confident, I think.

(Pause): [00:17:19 00:17:27]

CLIENT: Or if nothing else, I feel like it's a healthy mix, at least I'm aware that it might be sabotage.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just feel like, you know, I'm not going to be, like remember I was telling you that Assyrian chick who was at the reading. Like now all of a sudden she wants to hang out. So, I thought about it and was like, ‘you know what, yeah, I do want to hang out with her.' Like, it's kind of not a big deal. We're going to go have drinks and I'm not going to think about it one way or the other really. That is something that's always kind of bothered me that I haven't kind of been able to date someone Assyrian-at least see what it's like in my more evolved life. I don't know, but.

(Pause): [00:18:26 00:18:41]

THERAPIST: Does it worry you doing that?

CLIENT: It doesn't worry me. I think this is all, again, it's all new. It's very adult. I think this is the way dating works, actually. People date and they, until they really decide to make a very serious commitment. It's not like they're looking, but I think if there's something legitimate like in this case, I think it's an unusual thing, I mean it's not, she's not any girl. She's the only Assyrian girl I've really had a thing for. And I feel like I'd regret it if I didn't just see where we are in this phase of our lives.

(Pause): [00:19:27 00:19:35]

CLIENT: But with non-Assyrian girls I'm much more aware of the sabotage element. Because with that I'd know that that's what, you know, I'm going to hook up with them and it might be nice for a week or something and they're just a girl like any other girl, or, it's just another situation. So, I'm careful about that, but ...

(Pause): [00:19:51 00:20:07]

CLIENT: You know what's funny? Some of this could also be, and I'm not deflecting the other important stuff, but I'm realizing that some of this could also be like when you have this much on your plate it's even more important to have a better sleep schedule, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

CLIENT: But yeah, of course if you don't feel like you're really awake until like noon then you kind of feel like, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: Because if you're up and feeling kind of bright eyed and bushy tailed at like 8 or 9 and you've got the whole day to kind of slowly chip away at things and then it's only 4. But if you're not getting your (laughs) minimum, you're kind of like, business hours, certain things you've got to do by 5 or whatever so you're just kind of asking to be jittery.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because you're listless. It takes longer to check off.

THERAPIST: Even staying open till 4:30 on Tuesday night, that's been on my mind. It's not particularly analytic interpretation, but ...

CLIENT: It's stupid.

THERAPIST: It's important.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it throws most people off unless you're 18 or 19, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No, I know, I know. You're right, you're right. Dave and I talk about that. We go back and forth because we both feel bad about working for the same edge, we both, but we're like (laughs) it's like we are who we are, we kind of like that about us. That we're not these fuddy-duddy, like, ‘oh, I'm fucked the whole week if I buy this glass of wine. We're not like that, but...

THERAPIST: That's another extreme, no? (Laughs)

CLIENT: Well, it is. I think (pause) I think there is something in the middle. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's what I mean.

CLIENT: Where if everything else was-let's say the rest of my sleep schedule was pretty good, I could have that one night with Dave and be like, ‘yeah, yeah,' whatever, that was really fine and I hadn't seen Dave in a long time or whatever (sniff). And then I just kind of get back on the horse. But that's just your schedule that starts kind of, you know...

(Pause): [00:22:25 00:22:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's what I mean. I'm a fuddy-duddy if I have this one glass of wine is the one extreme. Being up late every night is different.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I gotta find a way to maybe, maybe it does come down to like I just need to take something and really just, like take something like at midnight...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...so that at 1:30 I'm just knocked out. I don't want to do that but I think that that's what might have to happen and that other, that melatonin, I mean it doesn't work sometimes, so I don't know if I have to talk to my doctor or just take something over-the-counter, but you can't take that stuff every day, right? The over-the-counter stuff, you're not supposed to, I mean...

THERAPIST: You can get dependent on it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Psychologically, I mean, physically. Not psychologically.

CLIENT: I'll just talk to the pharmacist or something. Because even the Ativan sometimes like it relaxes me but it doesn't, I'm still like awake.

THERAPIST: How much coffee are you drinking?

CLIENT: This is my first cup and I'm not even half way through.

THERAPIST: So that hasn't done as much as it has been.

CLIENT: I mean yesterday-on band nights I'm not good. Like, I'll have one or two and then I'll have a medium Dunkin at practice which in my mind is better than drinking beer while we play and then going to a bar. But, and also like for example at Starbucks-I mean it's half hot water, half coffee. I mean it's, I don't know how strong that is, but and a lot of times I'll throw it away. You know, it's just, I'm very like slow. I sip, I sip, I don't care if it's hot or cold but then it gets like, but then I toss it. I would say really like a whole all day, like it's really only an actual cup, maybe a little bit more. I don't think that's...

THERAPIST: No, that's not bad at all. Any caffeine past about 4 o'clock though for some people will really keep them awake, even a quarter of a cup.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not all people. Some people can go right to bed. Some people are very sensitive to it.

CLIENT: I think when I'm otherwise not feeling like overloaded it's always been fine. I've had cups of coffee like at midnight and...

THERAPIST: So it may be nothing but it may also be when you're in a kind of anxious mood that it exacerbates it a little bit.

CLIENT: Exactly, no I thought about that yesterday, it was like, ‘I probably shouldn't get this coffee, but,' it's just habit. It's kind of cold and we practice in a warehouse and it's kind of comfy and for my throat, I don't know. But I could drink tea or whatever.

(Pause): [00:25:13 00:25:27]

CLIENT: Yeah, because it probably it's also, well not probably-it is, that I think it ends up making me feel depressed, too.

THERAPIST: Oh, for sure.

CLIENT: I mean like you know you got to think there is something biologically-you've just got to be up and about by like at least 9, 9:30, you know. On the weekends it could be later or whatever. Sundays you can sleep in. You gotta be, just even if you're just up and about in your pajamas, just doing, get on the laptop, whatever, make some breakfast, whatever it is. I think I've just been resisting, well one, I just feel overloaded so there's that quiet time at night when I just feel kind of, but also, I don't want to take anything, but, you've got to do what you've got to do.

THERAPIST: There have been times when you've slept, gone to bed earlier, those were a few sort of phases, no?

CLIENT: But those are so few and far between, it never becomes a pattern.

THERAPIST: Because you've come in here saying I'm going to bed earlier. Is it more like a week, you'll get a week doing that and then it falls off?

CLIENT: And even that week it'll be like most of the days but not every day. (Pause) Or sometimes weird things happen, like I'll sleep late but still wake up like at 9 and for whatever reason I'll feel pretty good and I'll get up. But when I'm feeling like this it's definitely, you know, when I'm asleep I'm crashed. I just feel tired and you know.

(Pause): [00:27:07 00:27:13]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're body's going to be exhausted.

(Pause): [00:27:14 00:27:20]

THERAPIST: There almost feels like there's something missing inside about just kind of about the internalization of good self-care. You know we try to weave it around finances or what was missing about guidance, you know, I don't know how much what you think of what bedtimes were or taking (inaudible) for protecting your sleep. Was it kind of like brushing your teeth almost, was that built in in taking care of you>

CLIENT: It was but I think because I was such a good kid when I hit like junior high or whatever, I kind of ...

THERAPIST: Could do what you wanted?

CLIENT: Kind of, yeah, kind of. Because I was a good kid, so what did I want. I mean I didn't want to always be out or you know. So, yeah, no there wasn't, after elementary school there wasn't a lot of ...

(Pause): [00:28:13 00:28:21]

THERAPIST: What was also interesting was that somehow it feels like it must fit together that even as a young child you talked about you and your mom or some other adult, I would guess a woman but maybe your dad, too, would need to be there often to help you fall asleep.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That the space, it's a very, it's a transitional space in all kids and even adults that you just get used to it over time that this state between awake and asleep when you're by yourself with your mind and your thoughts is its own space inside and can be very frightening for some kids, for many kids actually. And I just wonder about, when you're by yourself with whatever's in your mind, is it just too, it's not settleable (sp?) on your own a lot of the time. You could even say you have to have the company of the TV or ...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...like almost if you stay up until you don't even, yet all you do is pass from awake to asleep because you're so tired.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's just what happens. Yeah, I'm not like-although, see now, the weird thing now is like if I'm with Kelly or whatever, I could totally be in bed with her and kind of just lay there and eventually I'm asleep.

THERAPIST: You have company.

CLIENT: So, it's weird. I don't know what that-well I'm going to have Sophie, but there's something about that. I love, when I wake up, she's all snuggled next to me but I can't for some reason, yeah, that's really, I don't know what the fuck that's all about. It's very strange and people, so many people kind of look forward to think, ‘oh, it's time for bed,' and feel like lying down and it's the whole thing. I've never, ever had that. Even when I was a kid, and even then sometimes I would be scared and need someone to, you know...

(Pause): [00:30:15 00:30:20]

CLIENT: I know it runs in my family on my mom's side. My mom not so much, but my aunt, my uncle. So. My cousins, a lot of them. Yeah, I don't know if it's just you're alone with your thoughts, and it's just, it's the opposite of winding down, like it's not relaxing. Right.

THERAPIST: I mean what awaits you in that period where you're alone and your mind is just fraught, too, for example,

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: It's terrifying.

CLIENT: Right, right.

(Pause): [00:31:04 00:31:07]

THERAPIST: And somehow having company, your mother, Kelly, whoever, that kind of would quiet that side down.

(Pause): [00:31:15 00:31:18]

CLIENT: Well, sometimes, but there was that period in my 20s where that didn't. I mean I would be with a girl and whatever and I would have all out panic and it was really embarrassing and I'd have an all out panic attack.

THERAPIST: In your falling asleep you mean, in particular?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Lights out in bed. Even with a girlfriend. Oh yeah, so...

THERAPIST: It's important.

(Pause): [00:31:40 00:31:48]

CLIENT: It's been hell, man. Jesus, when I think about it. What the fuck.

(Pause): [00:31:51 00:31:57]

CLIENT: So, maybe now I'm just programmed even though (laughs) things are good like, I'm just programmed to not-like it's just hardwired to not be able to, just lay there, and go to bed.

(Pause): [00:32:09 00:32:41]

THERAPIST: Also, if you're thinking about particulars of what might be in your mind in that space. It's not just self criticism. Self criticism sort of sounds like it's like a shallow level of describing it. You're thinking about, not just processing about your mother's destructiveness when she would envy something in you (inaudible) and in terms of destruction. It's so much more than criticism. Do you know what I mean? It's not just being negative. There's something, I mean, Dracula literally comes in and sucks your blood, destroys you with sadism (ph) that that's, it's another level of something to be terrified of and can get, I can get internalized over time. Self destructiveness. [00:33:26]

CLIENT: So you mean, like not sleeping or not having better habits because it's a subconscious form of just being bad to myself?

THERAPIST: That's (inaudible) cross talk)

CLIENT: Like, that's what I deserve? To not be...

THERAPIST: Yes, that there's a kind of ideology underneath, a fantasy of, I don't know, if the kind of love you received was an envy, destructive love, that's scary, that's frightening if you're picking that up unconsciously as a kid from your own mother. That's not a kind of just holding, loving...

CLIENT: And like kind of calming...

THERAPIST: Yes

CLIENT: ...like restorative kind of love.

THERAPIST: Yes. I mean that's I think what ultimately helps kids is having that calming restorative presence inside. You know, you have mommy inside and if the mommy inside is intent to destroy you underneath the love, that sort of love that starts

CLIENT: (Laughs) What's that song? "The Devil Inside?" It's, "The Mommy Inside."

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It doesn't take a psychoanalyst ...

CLIENT: Right. I know, I think you're right. That's a very hard thing to break.

(Pause): [00:35:01 00:35:10]

CLIENT: I mean I've kind of thought about that, too, I think. I don't know how conscious, but I do remember there have been, especially lately, the last several months or whatever, that like, ‘what's going on?' Like, I know better. Do you know what I mean? I'm very knowledgeable about these kinds of things. I care about kind about kind of self-care. I say I do. I do this I do other, I mean I don't smoke or whatever. I don't, but yeah, there's some things that are definitely not helping and are hurting me, but yeah, there must be some level of like you know, that's what I get, like I'm not as good as other people or I'm not, my life can't be as stable as other people. I'm just kind of more grounded and so I need these fucked up habits or weird quirks or something, I don't know.

(Pause): [00:36:02 00:36:22]

CLIENT: That's interesting. I think that's very helpful to like articulate that. I don't know.

(Pause): [00:36:30 00:36:39]

THERAPIST: You know I even wonder this may sound a little strange but I was thinking about encouraging you onto the couch and suddenly felt like was I pushing something too quickly or just in a way that actually wasn't where you needed to be and was good for you and could that feel like you're pushy, overbearing mother with her, you know, where you're feeling like ‘I'm fine where I am," actually ...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Yeah, at this point, now that we articulated it that way, now I'm, it makes sense why like in the past I'm so sensitive, right? Like it hasn't been forever, a long time, thank god, but remember that last time at the pub with that girl, remember I was with some friends and ...

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: ...the girl I didn't really even know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, what is all that? You know, that's all in those moments. That's my mom saying, ‘you're just like no good,' you know what I mean. ‘You're just no good.' And other people are kind of always a little bit ahead of you, always a little bit better than you, always, you know, do you know what I mean? So, and that, that could be a symptom, like it's kind of like, remember, I always say things like, I don't like it when people ask like, or when people say, oh, you look tired, or you sound sad, or whatever. Those kinds of things. Why? You know, because it's like walking into my mom's apartment trying to be happy to see her and the first thing is like, you know, something negative or she just looks like all fucking negative and deflated. That's so weird. That's kind of like a big thing. I mean I think I always maybe knew that on some level but it's a big difference to articulate it so clearly, like yeah, I didn't think about it, but yeah, maybe subconsciously it's that someone's immediately trying to get me to, instead of just being happy the way things are, that's someone's always trying to make changes, or as if, like this isn't good enough, you have to make an improvement, you now.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes.

CLIENT: And I didn't think of that but it makes perfect sense of all these little things that happen sometimes that, this is totally subconscious, but other times when I've really shut down or get sensitive about something someone says, I don't get it in the moment, I know that it's absurd but now that really crystallizes like, it's a manifestation in that moment of years of you know, just like this profound, defeating kind of like, crap.

(Pause): [00:39:38 00:39:46]

THERAPIST: Right where you look tired instead of feeling like oh, someone notices me and cares could feel like somebody is just nitpicking what's wrong with you.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Nitpicking. That is just so (inaudible) and immediately sounds like criticism. And they get all like, why say it, I know I look tired. But, that's not the point. It's that someone cares about you. But, in my mind it's a criticism that means that somehow I look more tired than other people. [00:39:59]

THERAPIST: Somebody else is tired.

CLIENT: Yeah, that I'm more unattractive, like I'm from being unattractive and weird looking. You know what I mean? Like it just -immediately I don't see any concern in those statements. (Laughs) It's you know.

THERAPIST: Because you didn't feel it from her.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: You could tell it was a criticism.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:40:41 00:40:46]

CLIENT: Whew, man, that's fucked up shit. (Deep breath)

(Pause): [00:40:48 00:41:09]

THERAPIST: So, maybe even, like it could be me being pushy and evasive like her. It could even feel like a criticism.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Of the couch.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: I was thinking that a mother...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...what was coming up here that would be (inaudible) [00:41:24]

CLIENT: I'm more of like, I don't know how much may or may not be. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying, I don't know, because I really didn't think about it. But, yeah, maybe subconsciously there was something, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying you did think about it at all. I'm just-the reason it comes to my mind is that it does feel, something feels different this week than where you were even last Thursday, Friday and kind of moving into the couch and anticipating the couch and there could also be a layer of, you know, just as I said to you it's a good thing if your anxiety starts to get focused here. All of the feelings that have happened out there will eventually start to happen in here, too, in this process so that I'm just listening for where some of those feelings about your mother could be stirring here also and kick up something that then we'll get to know because it's actually alive in here. You know? So it's just something to think about.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Could there be criticism in that also, somehow, like is that the right way or not? Who knows.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean it could, it could, I think it has nothing to do with you. I think that the part that's true is that I probably felt like, why don't I get on the couch, like am I not a good patient? Or, like, what? I don't have any balls, I can't get on the couch. That's, you know. So it's not even the suggestion, it's that I can't be like, no or yes or maybe or no big deal one way or the other, I'm going to do whatever feels comfortable. But, I think probably subconsciously, it wasn't even, there are times I did think about it, but it was like, why don't I just go fucking lie down on the couch? So, maybe that, you know.

THERAPIST: And then get down on yourself about it.

CLIENT: Yeah,

THERAPIST: Rather than that being actually, I don't think that will work for me, for who I am (inaudible) [00:43:20]

CLIENT: ‘Cause that's not how my life is. My life is that, it's not about what works for me or doesn't, it's that all these outside perceived things that aren't real about other people or things or whatever, they're constantly telling me that there's something wrong with me. So I can never be just like, no I just don't feel like doing that, you know. I always, there's something I feel bad about, always.

THERAPIST: Right.

(Pause): [00:43:44 00:44:00]

THERAPIST: Like the outside others are the good patients who get on the couch and becomes some evaluation (inaudible) of you. Rather than just a, just idiocyncratic about your needs, your desires, your feelings are different, as is everyone else's. [00:44:07]

CLIENT: That's right. Yeah.

(Pause): [00:44:22 00:44:28]

CLIENT: (Big exhale x 2).

(Pause): [00:44:30 00:44:45]

THERAPIST: Even with your mother's ministrations around your taking care of you, you know, like ...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...the things you do to take care of you, if you think about as a thing to do to take care of you...

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: It could become (cross talk)

CLIENT: What's it going to do, kill you to get on the couch?

THERAPIST: Exactly, exactly.

CLIENT: Like even that, it like, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. Eat a banana or ...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was never, it was always very prescriptive and kind of like, you know, ...

THERAPIST: This is what you do regardless of whether you're actually (cross talk) (inaudible) [00:45:16]

CLIENT: You know that when something's very simple I always go back to-and I've told her this and I've told her this about her whole family right to her face. There's no real humor. Not real humor. They'll fucking laugh at something or they'll do those things like I said that annoy the shit out of you and just fucking get you and they'll be like, ‘ha, ha, come on, laugh. You've gotta laugh at life.' Then right after they just fucking pissed you off to no end, so then you feel like more of a chump because you're like, mother fucker, I laugh all the time, but then if you say that, you seem kind of angry and, you know what I mean? It's a fucking ...

THERAPIST: Trap.

CLIENT: It's a cluster fuck. It's a cluster fuck. What was I saying? Oh, humor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no lightheartedness at all. I mean, have a banana. No, oh, silly, well, all right well when you get a You know what I mean, like, you don't want a banana, well, great, more for me. You know, like, anything. You can say anything, just make it more light or to not even care. Have a banana. Okay. Just say nothing. Do you know what I mean. There's no real humor in that fucking family. None. And that's, and I think that's why my humor is what it is. I refuse to like edit myself when it comes to making people laugh or just making myself laugh or because that's, I don't know, man. That's disgusting to me. That's so perverted when people don't have a sense of genuine light-heartedness and to see how absurd things are and to be okay with that and to let individuals just be kind of subtle and just not give a shit. Tricia wants a banana. Who the fuck cares. That's unnerving, you know, it's unnerving. (Pause) It's probably what like, probably drove my fucking dad insane. When I look back on it, how did a guy like that deal with these fucking idiots?

(Pause): [00:47:33 00:47:41]

THERAPIST: So we're on for Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I believe that the third week in March I'm going to be away on vacation so the week of the 18th...

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: ...I'm out the whole week.

CLIENT: Okay, okay.

THERAPIST: But we have three weeks before then.

CLIENT: So, Wednesday at 1.

THERAPIST: Wednesday at 1.

END TRANSCRIPT