TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Wednesday at...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Well, for the first time in a long time I have a negative balance in my checking. Good times. Luckily when I got to the coffee shop I had to (inaudible) do I even have the money to buy a coffee. And I saw that I didn't and I was like the good news is I didn't immediately think I'll just put it on my credit card, but then I was like, ‘I think I have like 65 bucks left on my credit card which is pa ahhh, I'm just. I know it's fine, that these things happen, but I'm just really sick of it. Really a humiliating feeling. [00:00:21]

THERAPIST: It's tiring, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's very humiliating. I think when you're a dude it effects you differently. I would think. You don't feel very manly or, you know, just kind of an emasculating feeling. And the problem is, I have no choice, I mean there is no way I can last until next Friday with, not like, not one penny, you know, so I have to borrow a little bit from my mom, I don't want to do that. But I don't want to ask my friends. It sucks. Either way it just sucks. But, whatever, at least it hasn't happened in a long time and it's only happening because of these extenuating things I just paid for. It sucks.

THERAPIST: Extenuating things like you mean putting a record out?

CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that what you were referring to?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean if I hadn't paid that, right, I'd have 600 and something dollars right now. Yeah, that's more than enough to get to my next paycheck. So.

THERAPIST: Is your mom able to give you money?

CLIENT: She is and she isn't. I mean all I would need is like I could get by with like 150 bucks. I'll just squeeze as much as I can till next Friday. I do I really do. I just need some coffee. I won't go out really. I don't know. I'll figure it out but, yeah, she's is and she isn't. She is but I mean, no. She doesn't have like all this disposable, no, I mean, she, you know, she's very tight with her money. She doesn't have, she really doesn't have a lot. She is kind of going month to month, too. But, of course she gets the rent and she gets her social security, you know, so she's able to, it's not quite as bad as she makes it out to be. I didn't used to think that, but now the more I understand how insane she is and how overly melodramatic and all that, I'm sure it's and I think she, also like thinks I don't have an overdraft on my account and I think she has $2,000, I mean I think it's not big of a deal, but I just don't want to ask because she's not going to get it. Even though I haven't asked her for anything in quite a while, but she immediately will make me feel pretty shitty.

(Pause): [00:03:27 00:03:43]

CLIENT: But I guess it could be worse. I don't feel as bad as I used to. I feel like, ‘well, this was an unusual little few weeks and ...

(Pause): [00:03:54 00:04:15]

CLIENT: But it's hard. Like I tried to get in touch with my uncle a few times last week and this week and yesterday he was like, ‘yeah, it's been on my mind to call you.' He was like they just finished renovating the new place here for their, I didn't get it for what, they don't have enough room so they, whatever. But, it was like of like, that was one of those moments when I was like, ‘yeah, see that's what it's like to not have a brother,' see what I mean. If there was a brother I could like, ‘listen man I (laughs) need to talk to you about this, like today or tomorrow, like. But, I can't really, and also he's older, he sounds stressed and tired and I just was like, ‘oh I have a problem.' You know what I mean? Like that combined with being broke, it's like feeling of like, ‘man, like it's hard to,' that's the tiring part really, is that I got to figure this shit out, always like alone.

THERAPIST: By yourself, yeah.

CLIENT: Otherwise, you know, you could call your bro your brother, like, ‘okay, man, listen I just need like 200 bucks until I get my check, I'll pay you.' It's really not a big deal, you know, but. And I know, the thing is, you know, I'm sensitive. I could totally go to George's (sp?) right now and be like, ‘dude, like this is what's going on.' I mean he, you know, that's not a big deal. I just, for some reason my pride won't let me do it.

(Pause): [00:05:41 00:05:50]

THERAPIST: Not a judgment of his, it sounds like. Just your (inaudible) [00:05:53]

CLIENT: No, are you kidding? George would be like, ‘how much do you need?' I'm just, you know.

THERAPIST: It's interesting because with a brother you could imagine that you wouldn't feel your pride is...

CLIENT: I mean I don't, well, I don't have a brother so I guess I don't know, but I don't think I would. Just because of the way my family is. We're so tight. That wouldn't be the kind of thing where my brother and I are kind of like, have a cold relationship, you know what I mean. Like, I'm assuming he'd (laughs) be very, you know, that, yeah. Or, my dad. You know, I'd have no problem asking my dad. But,

(Pause): [00:06:30 00:06:37]

THERAPIST: He wouldn't have, be different from the way your mom...

CLIENT: Maybe not the way my mom, I mean he'd be more maybe concerned or maybe he'd maybe scold me in the way that like, you know, ‘what's going on? Why is that happening,' like, ‘you've got to manage your money better.' Something. Whereas my mom not only will like be made to feel bad, but then she'll start listing. I got the gas bill. I have no money, I got the gas bill and the water, and like she'll just go on and fucking on about all her bills and her fucking things. And it's like, ‘dude, forget it.' I mean, if it's that, if we're going to like have a pissing contest then forget it.

THERAPIST: Better to call George.

CLIENT: Yeah, but that's a different kind of because we have such a my relationship with my mom is already what it is. You know what I mean? I just feel like I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, I don't know. It's, it's, you know, I don't want to make things weird with any of my friends. But...

(Pause): [00:07:47 00:07:53]

CLIENT: Then again, who knows? I haven't asked my mom for anything in a long time, maybe it's not going to be a big deal. I don't know. Who the fuck knows, but, either way it's just very annoying and tiring like you said.

(Pause): [00:08:05 00:08:11]

THERAPIST: I imagine there are feelings about here, too, the money and running a balance...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...where you can't pay it...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...this week that means ...

CLIENT: Well, I mean like as long as I take care of my account, yeah, I (inaudible) pay it. Yeah, no. It's frustrating. [00:08:23]

THERAPIST: But that's got to wear on you with (cross talk)

CLIENT: It does, yeah,, but...

(Pause): [00:08:30 00:08:35]

CLIENT: ...you know it's a few hundred bucks a month, you know, whatever. But then I always think about, yeah, but you've totally I mean I know what I'm getting out of it and I know, like I know how generous you're being and how, you know, I know this is kind of maybe a unique thing, but you know, so it's not the annoying part isn't paying for it. It's like, ‘oh, fuck and I got to pay Tricia, too,' you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's more that I'm doling something for myself, you know. And, it sucks that it has to be once in a while, like this. You know what I mean? That's more what it is.

THERAPIST: When I was asking, I actually wasn't even thinking about the feeling of resentment of paying for it, but of just with the run kind of balancing of it all ...

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: ...with a credit card.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it is.

THERAPIST: Because I kind of tiptoe around that to try and not to make it feel worse.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know it is hard. It is hard.

THERAPIST: It's like one of those things I wonder, like your loans, there are certain things that, where like you know my fantasy that your mom would understand that actually one of the things you're doing right now is taking care of things and ...

CLIENT: She does, and that's what I'm saying, that maybe this time she might be like, if I say, ‘mom, you know I just consolidated my lo you know there's just all this stuff going on,' maybe, yeah. I don't know, I don't know. She is very happy about that. She sees that. She's not that, like, blind, you know. But, I also know her and I'll just be like,

THERAPIST: It'll be something.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. In her mind it will be like, oh, I thought everything was taken care of and now you're, it'll be a little bit of that, maybe.

(Pause): [00:10:20 00:10:38]

CLIENT: But yeah, I don't know. But, yeah, I mean yeah especially when they give me the paper thing, I'm always like, "awwww," but you know it's not, I only feel bad because I just want to write a check and be done with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean (inaudible) I imagine you'd feel better, like with your loan. [00:10:52]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Instead of (inaudible) tackling one piece at a time...

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: ...and it's a clean slate.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, you know, it is what it is.

(Pause): [00:11:05 00:11:10]

CLIENT: At least some things are getting taken care of.

(Pause): [00:11:13 00:11:28]

THERAPIST: Do you have a sense about that balance? When things settle down with the record, you'll have some extra money incoming in the next few months to pay it off?

CLIENT: I don't know if' I'll have extra money, but yeah, I mean I don't know, I hope. I mean now the thing though, now it's just 400 that has to go to the loan which is good but yeah, I don't know. Basically, I need to make more money. You know, I don't see, it's not like suddenly I'm going to be having five or a thousand dollars extra coming. I mean it is what it is.

THERAPIST: Well, in here it's only a one time payment for that. Do you know what I mean? It's not really ...

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: ..,bad.

CLIENT: Well that's what I don't know if you noticed but I was trying to like pay a little extra ...

THERAPIST: I did notice.

CLIENT: ...so, you know it would be nice if like every week I could just put in an extra 75 bucks, 100 bucks, whatever, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: And it would be lower except for the times that you haven't shown up.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: (Laugh) So that...

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: ...digs into what you're it's a few steps forward and a few steps back.

CLIENT: (Whisper) Yeah.

(Pause): [00:12:36 00:12:47]

CLIENT: (Deep breath)

THERAPIST: It's been, have been noticing that it's been decreasing slowly.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:12:51 00:12:57]

THERAPIST: I know it's hard to talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I just don't want, I don't want to not talk about it because then it becomes kind of like an elephant in the room, too, or something that's too horrible to talk about.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: I have some flexibility around (cross talk) [00:13:12]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Clearly (inaudible) show you but it's important also that it be part of the conversations (inaudible) [00:13:14]

(Pause): [00:13:20 00:13:38]

THERAPIST: And it does sound like you're saying that your getting something additional going on the side would help.

CLIENT: I mean I don't know, it's like if I try to start this business I don't, but even that the problem is in these moments it's hard, it's not as bad as it used to be because I feel like I'm, yeah but it is hard. I do have little panicky moments where I'm like what the fuck, I have no money. Like, and yeah, if I start this fucking tie business tomorrow that's these things take time, you know.

THERAPIST: And they also take investment.

CLIENT: Investment. Risk.

THERAPIST: Money (cross talk)

CLIENT: You don't know if you're going to make it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like that's just scares the I don't know, that scares the fucking living shit out of me. And then I get a little angry because it's like, ‘yeah, but I do have money.' I mean, you know, like (inaudible) and so then I get more angry at my mom that really she's, you know, she's in her fucking 70s and she's got her fucking claws on the house and it's like, ‘dude,' you know. [00:14:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, you know. I don't know. (Rhythmic thumps) You know, so that's a freaky thing because I feel bad feeling that way, but on the other way I'm like, ‘you're fucking retired,' I mean what, if you're going to retire, retire. I mean there's shit I could be doing that will help my future. You're done. I'm sorry, but this is it. You're retired and you're living your life. Fine. But, like you know.

THERAPIST: Do you wish she would give you the house at this point when you say that (inaudible) ? [00:15:18]

CLIENT: Yeah. If I was on the deed you know, obviously it's my, I'm on the will or whatever. I mean it's my, obviously it's my house, but, you know. Collecting the rent, like just control of the house. I could see, ‘cause I kind of don't know. I mean like I said, she's so melodramatic and so whatever, I don't know. You know. I think she's doing okay, you know, not great by any stretch of the imagination, but she's not having this problem, you know, so I just feel like this is just ...

(Pause): [00:15:55 00:16:00]

THERAPIST: You wonder maybe if she has more money than she thinks she does.

CLIENT: Not more, but. I'm just saying that she doesn't have this problem. You know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't think she has thousands and thousands of dollars tucked away somewhere. I'm just saying that, you know...

THERAPIST: She's making ends meet.

CLIENT: She's making ends meet and ...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...she complains like there's no tomorrow. But, she's okay.

THERAPIST: And if you had the house, like if she signed it over to you and it was in your control, what would ...

CLIENT: I'd raise the rent on the first floor. You know, I'd really try to figure out this home equity line thing.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: But, now that I do all this stuff, the minute I call any mortgage, they're like, ‘well are you doing the appli ', like no (Laughs). I can't do the application. Do you know what I mean? And she's going to do what application. She's fucking retired. So, it's like, ‘dude,' you know, I don't know. It's just that's the kind of thing where I don't know if I need to it's just the thing I don't want to get. You see, there's no brother or sister to have like a family meeting, you know. It's like a one on one war with someone I've never gotten along with. And I don't want to bring my uncle into it because what's he going to say? The guy's fucking exhausted, you know what I mean? I don't know, it's just.

(Pause): [00:17:26 00:17:35]

CLIENT: She's and also she's so defensive, so defensive. Like she just does she's not I don't know how to explain it. Like she'll fucking snap at you and get very, like suddenly you know, something, and then it's forget it. And it's just you know.

(Pause): [00:17:57 00:18:18]

THERAPIST: You have no image of her saying, ‘how can I help?' and, ‘let's help you figure out how,' help is not happening?

CLIENT: No. In her mind the help is kind of like you know, ‘let's if we just fix the if we get the mortgage fixed instead of variable and have a nice low rate then I don't need anything. So that way you don't have to worry about me. So then you'll be okay. And I can kind of see that but that's all kind of like it's still kind of based on her. Do you know what I mean? It's like, well we don't have to even, that's not that's fine, but I mean I'm worried about me. I'm not worried about helping you. (Laughs) That's yeah, I'd like to help you but I can only help you when I really, completely get my act together.

THERAPIST: That's very different from ‘how can I help you.'

CLIENT: Yeah, no, no. There's none of that because she's so angry that she's not being helped...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...that there's no, you know. And in her mind she's helping me. I live up there. I haven't paid her rent in a little while, you know. So, in her mind, you know, what are you doing for me? You're just living up there. You know. So, it's very, very contentious, know what I mean? It doesn't matter that I'm kind of paying some of her bills and all that, like to her that's the least of. Nothing's really enough. I should be buying her a new washer/dryer, like there should be bigger things that I should be doing.

(Pause): [00:20:01 00:21:25]

CLIENT: And you know what the really shitty thing about this is? It kind of it defle it drains you from like now I don't want to do anything, like the rest of the day I don't feel motivated, I don't want to go to band practice, I don't fucking care, like I just and that's sad like that just sucks. But it's impossible to be like, ‘hey, I'm going to go practice with my band. I have a negative balance in my account. It's like that, for me, I don't know, I think, I know that happens to people sometimes, or whatever, but I don't know, I'm really tired of it.

(Pause): [00:22:01 00:22:13]

THERAPIST: What's the way out? I wonder.

(Pause): [00:22:14 00:22:19]

CLIENT: (Chuckle) I don't know.

(Pause): [00:22:19 00:22:24]

CLIENT: And then I think I need to somehow find a way to make a little more money on the side. I don't know.

THERAPIST: You haven't been so tired about, like when we talk about things like tutoring and you'll say, ‘definitely not, nothing will ever be worth my doing that again.'

CLIENT: I'm still not, still not going to do that.

THERAPIST: So, that's, you're in conflict about it. You know, there's a side of you that feels like ...

CLIENT: I think ...

THERAPIST: ...you don't want to be in this place but another side that doesn't not want that so much.

CLIENT: I think my problem is there's something in my saying that it's time to do something more drastic than that. That shit's not working really. Like I know lots of people that work at Starbucks on Saturdays or some shit. That's great. I guess that pays their electric bill or some shit. But, I'm saying that there needs to be a bigger, something more drastic has to happen to generate more income, quite frankly. Like, I'm not going to bust my ass for pocket change so I can go have some beers and whatever and, which drains me in a different way. Then I have no desire to do anything creative. It's a different, you know what I mean? I would have to tutor a lot. You know, then, yeah if you're making 60 bucks an hour. (Clears throat).

THERAPIST: But if you're tutoring three people a week, that's already ...

CLIENT: There's something about it.

THERAPIST: ...not pocket change. That's only three hours a week. That's a lot and then you're paying, more than paying off the loans, you'd pay off this.

CLIENT: There's something about it. Something about the tutoring. I just don't want to. I don't know what it is. I just feel like I did it, it's time for something else. I just can't ...

THERAPIST: And I'm not saying that it's not like a ...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...should or shouldn't but it's just noticing that you're tired of the feeling of being broke, but not so tired that you're willing to do anything not to be broke. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Well, I'm tired enough to do something drastic about it. Because I never was before, thought about really starting a business or something. Because what I think what I'm seeing, I don't know, what's that phrase? Like when you're that poor? That stuff is a little bit of a joke in my opinion. Like, it is nice, yeah, but then you're just on this wheel of okay, good, now I'm able to pay this little bill and that little bill and that's great but nothing is really changing. Those bills are getting paid, yes, but you're still basically living hand to mouth, month to month. Instead of like a negative balance you have like a $50 deposit. That's what I'm sick of. Like, I'm just really tired of that kind of shit. And that doesn't appease me that doesn't really make me feel better, to feel like, ‘well, okay, it least, well you know, I still have a hundred.'

What I'm trying to say is let's say I did have a negative balance and I had 300 bucks left, a hundred bucks left, that's still making me feel the same way. I'm like, this is not ...

THERAPIST: So that it's more like that's not enough.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I just feel like, this is not the its about the you know what it is? It's like sometimes I do that trick where I'm like, ‘what kind of life do I want to live?' Forget about what's real or what's happening. You know, I think that's really useful. Like I do that a lot now. I'm like, right now, what do I want to be doing? And a lot of times like, not this. In terms, well, not in terms of the other stuff, but this is not how I want to be living. You know what I mean. Like this. And to do the things I want to do, I really need to make a bigger chunk of money. Like a chunk of money. You know. So, I'd rather devote myself to making that happen somehow, you know, instead of tiring myself and running around and like it's just, I'm tired of it. I'm just tired of it.

THERAPIST: When you do picture what you want your life to look like, what to you picture when you say that?

CLIENT: To not worry about not only not worry about money, to really not (Laughs) worry about it, like to not, you have to do a little calculat well, okay so if I have 200 bucks left, you know. I don't know. I just want to not think anymore. It doesn't even. I don't even need to be ri that's the funny thing, I don't need to be rich. I just don't want to think about it. I just want to be like, ‘all right, you know I make five grand a month, four grand a month, that's, for me that's more than enough. I'm good, it's all good, you know.

THERAPIST: So, even if you had a salary of 70,000 instead right now instead of 50,000 could that (cross talk) [00:26:56]

CLIENT: Oh, I could retire. No, I would be retired. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Laughs) (inaudible) retire. (Laughs) Go ahead.

CLIENT: You know what I mean. You know what I mean. I'd be ...

THERAPIST: But that's what I'm saying, so that's good to know concretely that somewhere in that range feels more ...

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: ...feels comfortable.

CLIENT: Abso I mean when you have a house and you don't have to pay much rent and you have one little credit card and you know, of course, I'd be all set. I'd be all set. So...

(Pause): [00:27:19 00:27:26]

CLIENT: So you know, it's I mean I thought about that, too. Maybe I should just look for another job, you know.

THERAPIST: I mean, you're so you're not that far off from where you'd feel like you'd be more comfortable, only 20 grand a year.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You could actually I know you don't want to tutor, but the way you started conceptualizing ...

CLIENT: Something else could make up that 20 grand.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: By doing a few hour, I mean something that pays an hourly rate I guess, that's a decent hourly rate. That's what's good about tutoring is you get a pretty high rate relative to working at Starbucks or something.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you may be saying no you want to sort of take everything of what you're doing at both jobs, you know, the money that tutoring would bring and what you're currently doing and put that into (cross talk)

CLIENT: I just feel that something's not working with that kind of stuff. I've tried that. I've tried like some freelance editing. There's something about that that's just not, I want to be freer than that. Do you know what I mean? And I want to make more than that. Like if I'm going to go through all that hassle, like this is the thing: more and more I'm like what am I going to do? What really makes me sad and angry is that I'm not tapping into my potential at all.

THERAPIST: Meaning? What do ...

CLIENT: Like here's a side note. The other thing that happened last night is I made the fucking mistake of showing my mom the blog, showing her the preview of how this is going to look when we put it up. The first thing she says, ‘what is that picture of you?' First thing! And I just lost it. I was like, ‘oh, why, why did I show this to you.' And I just let I don't know what I said. I was like, ‘who the fuck do you think you are?'

And I was really like, ‘you know what's it's like dude?' and she was like, ‘no, no I just mean it's an artistic photo,' and I was like, ‘I don't give a shit what you mean.' I was like, ‘you know what?' I was like, ‘look at it, don't look at it, I don't really give a shit' and then I left. Then, of course, she called me real sad and apologetic. ‘I read it, it's so good. You're so talented.' You know. I don't care. So, I got into my car and started driving around. It did motivate me to get a new app on my iPhone. You know the memo app. It doesn't go on indefinitely to record. So I got one that does. You know there's all these free recording apps, you know. I drove around for about 40 minutes just talking into this, and I think I'm going to start doing that. I was like, you know what? And I just talked, you know, kind of like what I do here and like I don't, whatever. And one of the things was that that's what I'm tired of: tutoring fucking chongchoons (ph) at finale, I'm sorry but I feel like that is not where, I just feel way better than that. I feel like there is so much more that I could be doing. That's what I'm tired of. It's not that I want to sell ties but at least that is something I'm doing. I don't have to deal with fucking idiots. I don't have to, do you know what I mean, like ... [00:30:11]

THERAPIST: You'd be a business owner.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's just me. You know. The most I'd have to deal with these people I'm buying the ties from. I don't give a fuck. So, that's one. And two I'm just I'd almost rather be piss poor. There's something about and I don't think it's pride I don't really don't. I think it's like I'm going to be who I'm going to be I don't give a shit if that means I have to go (laughs) into a negative balance.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like, I'm a serous artist. I don't give a shit if other people get that or don't get that but I've been fucked for so long because of these assholes, that, you know what? This is the way it's going to be and yeah, that's going to suck sometimes but I'm not going to do other things that are constantly taking me away from, you know what I mean? Because the thing I was saying into the recorder that I don't think I'd said out loud of all things, can you fucking im I got into an ivy league school. I published a book with a prestigious press. I moved abroad. I have a band. I've released records. I've played with big time and that was not even trying that hard. Not even trying that fucking hard. That is maddening. Like that when I said that out loud I was going to like drive off the road. I don't know whether to cry or explode or what. Like that is un fucking acceptable anymore to me. It's unacceptable. Because it'll never make up for whatever I do now. I don't give a shit if I win the Pulitzer tomorrow. That's never going to take away that inexplicable frustration and pain. So, that's why. Like, I'm not going to work at Starbucks. I'm not I don't have kids. I don't have a wife, so I don't give a fuck. It's a little bit aggressive and like in the face of conventional whatever things, but I don't know why, I just feel that's what has to happen. Because this is just is especially travelling with Kelly and these fucking douche bags, you know, 24, 25 year old douche bags in these crazy lofts making who knows what a year, doing I don't know what. I don't know what they do. Other than the ones who are actually drawing shit. I mean, these like just office y loft people, you know, or whatever. Or they do something. I don't care. But just the idea that these are people that have put there minds to something and they're doing it. It's not that I don't want that to be doing it, but it just showed me that, my God, I haven't even really tried that hard and I've done more than most people will ever do, actually.

(Pause): [00:33:15 00:33:19]

CLIENT: Does that make sense? I don't think I'm off the mark here. I did try like hard to get into Brown and I did. I didn't even try that I didn't even ask my publisher to publish my book. I thought, ‘oh, if I keep working at it a couple of years, the record, my first band, the record, this record, it's like you know what? This is all happening with some super will power stubbornness. You know, other people a long time ago would have been like, ‘you know what, dude? I'm just going to law school.' Fuck this, you know. So...

THERAPIST: Maybe one of the things you're saying is that doing something like tutoring doesn't feel like it's an act that recognizes who you are.

CLIENT: Well, it's literally not me. That dude that goes to that's not me. I'm like, I feel like I'm playing a part and like because it's so, it's not like, ‘oh, well, you know, I'm getting my master's in teaching, so like oh, fuck yeah, let me rake in this money and get the exper you know I hate, I hate that whole feel of like, ‘(inaudible) like what's going on?' and this fucking douche bag's super fucking wealthy and you know part of the tutoring is you have to talk to them, right? Well what are you talking about? You're talking about all the amazing things these rich assholes do and it's not even the jealous God bless them, I hope they do more than that. I'm just I'm not going to be that person that says, ‘how wonderful. So you've lived in Switzerland and you,' or whatever like shit that they do. It's like, you know what, man, that's not me. You're not talking to some chump like, because that's the other thing is that a lot of these students, yeah, they're friendly and all that but at the end of the day you're the little monkey American to you. That's just the way it is. And it's like, you know, dude, I don't think so. I'm not 25. I'm not, I don't give a shit if I have to sleep in my car. That will suck to no end, but... [00:34:24]

THERAPIST: You have such a history of not being recognized for who you are. Over and over and over and over.

CLIENT: Which has then made me not work to my potential, not made me achieve the things I really, I didn't even want to go to Brown, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's fucking detours and then those detours I didn't even want to fucking finish so things get left kind of half assed, like I'm done. I'm just done. I'm still a relatively young, and I think, my best artistic years are actually ahead of me, so you know.

(Pause): [00:36:18 00:36:29]

THERAPIST: It makes sense that it feels increasingly important to do what works for you and that you feel like it's you, it's not your trying to (cross talk)

CLIENT: It's also like that's my old, that's my grandfather talking, it's my Socialist, you know fucking class war like I feel like that's such a little trip for people. Like, yeah, you know, work at J Crew. Then the other day work at Starbucks and then do your day job and then go home and paint and like, that's such a fucking capitalist like, fucking keep it going, just fucking hop on that wheel and just fucking, just so you can make little crumbs here and there to eat. I don't think so, because the fact is other people are not only not doing that, they've totally learned how the sys like they get it. They either come from money or they were lucky enough to understand at a younger age that it's all, it's about choosing the things you're super passionate about and never ever, ever, ever giving up and finding other ways to make bigger chunks of money. Being smarter about it.

(Pause): [00:37:35 00:37:49]

CLIENT: I think the bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that I've always been made to feel bad that I don't, as if I'm like a dilettante, or like I'm lazy or super like unrealistic. But, you know what? I've worked my ass off like these just happen to be the things that these people don't understand and I don't give a shit about. And I'm kind of tired of that. It was like, ‘no, I don't think so.' Like, I am working like all the fucking time. That's what artists do, always working. So I'm tired of like apologizing for that or muting it, or constantly making it or suppressing it because I need to make like $250 this week you know. I have done that for many, many years. That's one, but I would continue to do that if I was 25 or maybe even 30, I don't know, but I'm just, it's as if like physically I can't even do it anymore, my mind and my like, I can't breathe. I just can't do it.

THERAPIST: Well, you've done it for just so long. I mean that's probably what you're saying. You're tired of it. And you've gone in and out of pretending you're something that would impress your mother.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Instead of yourself which apparently she wasn't impressed about. Including going to Brown.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: ...which probably wasn't, if you'd known yourself, would not...

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: ...chosen to do.

CLIENT: Exactly. I would have never fucking gone there. Never. I was in the middle of a great program at Amherst that I loved. I mean, that's, how do you not lose your fucking mind. That's maddening. I can't expl like there are no wor and this one thing I was saying into the recorder is like, ‘this is why I'm having trouble writing and literally don't have words. I don't know to say, like what is it I want to say in my book that I want to fucking bitch slap my family. You know what? I'm speechless, kind of, at what's transpired.

THERAPIST: It sounded like you could find words last night from the words.

CLIENT: Well, but not literally, not artistic words, but yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That's something.

CLIENT: Well, no. It was something.

THERAPIST: You have a lot of feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was actually kind of really cool. Just drive around and talk into this thing. Yeah. I'm going to do that like as often as I can now ‘cause I think that I'll then just have a big file of all those things and then...

THERAPIST: Come in and talk to me about them.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, that's what happened. Yeah. You know now I remember things I talked about that I could say here.

THERAPIST: It's diff when you're alone you say things that either you feel more comfortable or it's just a, you know, obviously if you're driving around aimlessly it's a little different, you know we have time parameters and you know what I mean? Things kind of pop out.

(Pause): [00:40:55 00:41:02]

THERAPIST: So I wonder what doesn't get to pop out here.

CLIENT: It's not that it doesn't. Like yeah, it's just the whole, you know, no matter what, this is a, there's a structure here, you know what I mean. It's a good structure. I'm just saying, you know, when you're just driving around aimlessly it's even rainy, it's nighttime. Just you. Also, one thing I did that right after that happened. When things are fresh. Yeah, sure.

(Pause): [00:41:34 00:41:43]

THERAPIST: It reminds me of the dreams you used to have about just screaming at your mother.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's all it would be.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know.

THERAPIST: Sometimes you didn't even know what the words were.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You just had an image of just ...

CLIENT: It was more like I just couldn't breathe and like yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And the one conclusion I did come to though which was great, that's a step, I was like, this can't be a memoir. It can't be. Because, you know, what's my point in the memoir. ‘Oh, look at how unique and difficult my life was?' Are you kidding me. There are people dying every fucking day, living in abject misery. I'm not going to be one of those douche bags, that middle class white guy like I don't want to be that guy. It's really novels, art is the thing that makes those things more real actually. Oh! Before I forget, can I ask you a related question but it's not about this, not about therapy, but do you know people at Danvers (sp?)?

THERAPIST: A few. Why?

CLIENT: I e mailed some people quite a while ago so I do have a specific plot now for the novel but it kind of evolves from Danvers (sp?) . Like is there anyone there, would there be a way for me to go talk to one of the, almost like interview a couple of the psychologist's or just, and just see like...

THERAPIST: I'm sure there's going to be some way. If you're saying this is going to be for a book and it's historical, you know, research for the background of a book, there's going to be somebody you could get on the phone who would.

CLIENT: Yeah, ‘cause I e mailed a few people and I never heard back. So, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I'd just keep trying different people on the staff.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I mean I think they're very protective of privacy of patients and ...

CLIENT: That's the only thing. I was like am I really being rude by asking this, but it was like yeah but I'm writing a book, I'm not, I don't want to see the patients and be weird.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Just keep trying. Broken wheel (ph) [00:43:41]

CLIENT: Do you think it would even be okay to call and be like, what's going on?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Is there someone I could talk to?

THERAPIST: I mean that's what a reporter (cross talk) ...

CLIENT: I mean, yeah, right?

THERAPIST: ...push, push, push until somebody say's, yeah.

CLIENT: Okay, all right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:43:50]

(Pause); [00:43:51 00:43:54]

THERAPIST: See you (inaudible) [00:43:55]

CLIENT: At 3:10.

THERAPIST: Yeah, 3:10.

CLIENT: Awesome. Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT