TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So this is for March as a running total, the balance but not this month.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You’ve given me one check this month for $60 as far as I have record of.

CLIENT: For March?

THERAPIST: For March.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: If you have otherwise,

CLIENT: Maybe because we missed –

THERAPIST: double check –

CLIENT: Oh yeah, maybe because I was away and then you were away.

THERAPIST: Yes. I was away for a week.

CLIENT: And then I was away. Okay. All right. Can we turn off the fireplace?

THERAPIST: Sure. It gets warm.

CLIENT: This is our first regular week again.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s been a while. That’s good.

CLIENT: I think so right?

THERAPIST: Scary.

CLIENT: It’s what?

THERAPIST: Scary?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: First regular week.

CLIENT: No, it’s good because it’s, yeah. That’s good to have the routine. We’re doing pretty good. I told you our tenants are moving, right?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that’s really good.

THERAPIST: You had just found that out.

CLIENT: They’re moving Tuesday or Wednesday. Yeah, things are going pretty good. So when I took Kelly out to Western Mass I had a little test that happened that I thought I handled pretty well. My mom’s been sick for like – there’s something going around, I don’t know, but she had this like awful, awful, awful cold and so I think the Friday – we went Thursday and then Friday she had left me a message and I was like checking up on her like every day. I was like taking her water or fruit or whatever the fuck stuff, you know, yogurt. And like on Friday she left a message where she was her typical like just kind of like whiny/where are you? What is this? Like, she gets like very you know and like it just, you know, it was like just really annoyed the shit out of me. Because I’m like what the fuck? Like one day, two days like that I check up on this fucking broad every fucking, cone on, you know. Like I’m trying to just take a little break with my girlfriend. You know I just – so when I called her I just let her have it. So it was one of those things again. That hadn’t happened in a while. I wasn’t a long conversation but I was very – I just laid into her. But again, it was one of those things where you know what? This has to happen. She needs to have a little smack down so it was good. It didn’t really get to me too much. Like a momentary thing and I forgot about it.

THERAPIST: Did she know – she didn’t know where you were.

CLIENT: No. Because I – because she – she’s the type – it’s not, I don’t tell her any more certain things, you know. One night being away? I might as well just be anywhere but that’s not – she was just being super needy and just fucking whiny. Fucking ridiculous. It’s a fuck – you know that’s how they get. These things become catastrophized you know? Oh, I was so sick last month I couldn’t raise my head. I was in bed and oh, oh, oh. It’s just, it’s pretty ridiculous. So I was like, what do you want? I didn’t even say, hello. I said, what? What do you want? She said, what, what? Where are you? I said, it’s none of your business where I am. I’m around. It’s none of your business. I was like, I’m not going to give you reports on every little thing that I do so just get over it. And I just hung up the phone and that was it. And then of course when I got back I kind of gave her the cold shoulder when I got back. And of course she says, what’s the matter, son? You know I don’t want to bother you. I think I bothered you. You know, whatever. I was like, just, whatever, it’s fine. Don’t worry about it. You got issues.

THERAPIST: It’s also just, maybe feels kind of intrusive and enmeshed with you. You can’t have your own space.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well that’s always been – that’s always the problem. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The difference now is I just call her on her shit and in the past what might have happened is I wouldn’t answer, but then that would only fuel her whatever the fuck’s going on in her head and then it would seem like I’m being bad just for not answering the phone for a second in case it’s an emergency, you know what I mean. So now I’m like, all right, I’m going to answer the phone, but I’m going to fucking bitch slap you and then I’m going to hang up on you. We’re going to keep doing this until you just get it. Oh, that was the other thing. Then the day before she comes in – I wanted to order pizza. I don’t – I haven’t been eating. She was so whiny, bitchy. That’s fine but I just said, mom, call Margaret’s and order a pizza. She says, but I don’t have cash. I said, give them your fucking card number. She says, oh, you can do that? Yes. You can do that. Bitchy little whatsis.

THERAPIST: What’s the feeling? What’s your feeling about it?

CLIENT: It’s like anger and like claustrophobia, you know? Because you know they’re not going to change. I’m not going to move anywhere. Just is what it is. So that’s why I have to be very strict about like, basically this is how it’s going to be. Do you know what I mean? It’s not like anything’s going to change. But now I’m okay with just kind of being harsh and kind of being very clear about boundaries and shit, you know?

(Pause): [00:06:45 00:06:54]

THERAPIST: There was a while back where you saying you were feeling a lot of the times coming in here, even in here just in your life out there claustrophobic. You would use that word. There’s something more coming alive in your relationship with her that flushes out that feeling you have with her. You know that feeling – claustrophobic. There was a day, you may not remember it, but it was the day you were here and you said you were having that feeling when the garbage men having left your garbage cans – do you remember this?

CLIENT: I remember that. Yeah, I do.

THERAPIST: It was like they were in other people in the street or across the street and the neighbors –

CLIENT: And the neighbors on our side.

THERAPIST: Yeah, the neighbors were on your side. And then you felt that way about noises. The feeling of your space being encroached upon. Because it has been.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: With her.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

THERAPIST: It’s intrusive. I mean it’s more than just whiny. She’s trying to track you down.

CLIENT: It’s totally – I mean that’s why, remember when, I think I told you I’ve had to even smack her down in front of others. It was like, you know I call him and he doesn’t answer. And I let it go and was like, why should I answer? I’m living a life here. It’s not a pager. Do you know what I mean? If it’s an emergency, leave a fucking message. I don’t know – just tell me the house is on fire, call me back. I mean it’s like I’ve really gotten very harsh with her on that – like if you don’t like it, fuck you. I really don’t care. I don’t care that my uncle answers his phone all the time. Yeah, he’s like bent in half and has diabetes and he’s a fucking mess even though he’s rich and should be enjoying his life. Oh no, that’s not me. So, yeah, it’s very tough love. It’s like I love you enough that I’m not going to cut you out of my life but I basically have to discipline, like I have to set the very strict kind of tolerance sometimes. Which she responds to. That’s what’s good about it. She responds to that. So that’s the way it’s going to have to be. You know. I don’t like that. It’s silly to have to do that to your own parent but that’s the one I think she responds to and when she gets like that, you know, it’s not all the time. It’s just – you know, other times it’s fine but when she gets in that space I just, I have no more patience and I just kind of – that kind of negativity is just beyond unhealthy.

THERAPIST: You also haven’t always done that either. That’s relatively –

CLIENT: What’s that?

THERAPIST: Recent, bitch slapping her.

CLIENT: No I haven’t.

THERAPIST: Right?

CLIENT: Well, I would but it would happen not in the right way. It would get built up, built up, built up and then she’d be like, what? And I would just look like I’m crazy. Now, I still do. I mean she still gets like, don’t get so upset. Why, you know – she thinks I was crazy tempered, that I’m being a whatever. Every little thing upsets me, you know. But now I don’t care, now I do it in the appropriate moment as it’s happening. I really don’t care what her reaction is, you know. (Laughs). That way I only feel bad a little bit, in the moment and like this is so ridiculous that this has to happen. It’s not a good feeling, you know? But the minute it’s over I’m like, all right, it’s a release. I mean it’s not pent up so that that way it happens and then Kelly and I had a nice time. We had a nice drive back. It was gone, I wasn’t dwelling on it you know?

(Pause): [00:11:01 00:11:10]

CLIENT: Like I think this is closer to a normal relationship. I think a lot of people have with this kind of issue with their parents or something like this, I think a lot of people have these little conversations, like dad, like what were you –

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I think that’s way more normal than pent up, pent up, pent up and then just a volcano, you know? The other thing is I’m trying to be more honest – like I was just honest with Kelly, like that was my fucking mom. Without getting into it, I kind of explained my relationship with my mom a little bit, but she gets it. She was like, yeah, parents. People get it. Very few people have great relationships with their parents.

THERAPIST: I think that that’s a sensitive point that what you’ve been doing relatively recently is so much healthier. It also highlights what you’ve kind of had to do, what you couldn’t do because how could you as a kid with her. Kids don’t –

CLIENT: Well I was a kid and also then even recently when I’m trying to still satisfy her – what’s the word?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, get validation or acceptance. You know.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: That’s not going to fucking work. So now that I’m just me and I’m just happy with who I am I just could give a rat’s ass. I really don’t care so, you know. And it’s with my whole family – like at Easter I could give a fuck. I don’t think I had one real conversation with my aunt. I did with my uncle but it was mostly about him. My cousin was a drunk so it wasn’t a real conversation. It was really just with, like there are a few people where there was a genuine exchange of how are you, like what’s going on? Your record – that’s awesome. Like you know. I just don’t care anymore. I just go. I eat my food. I play with my cousins. That’s way better, you know? I don’t care if they like Obama, if they don’t. Who the fuck cares? So. And you know when they do ask me, I’ve gotten very like, things are great. Like I just kind of like, yep, I just cut a record, I’m publishing a book. But I don’t get into anything – I just give them a bit of a run down, whatever. I just don’t care. It really helps me to not you know.

(Pause): [00:13:53 00:14:10]

CLIENT: It’s funny, because I was thinking about this on my way here. It’s weird but I think I’m getting this way with relationships. I think that’ healthy. I know that sounds a little crazy, but like I’ve been kind of like with Bethany, I’ve been kind of like I don’t feel guilty. I’ve been kind of flirting, and kind of like I just don’t feel guilty and I’m like you know what? I’m not getting married tomorrow and yeah, I have a girlfriend but you know what? I’m just tired of – yeah, it really is – I want to look out for me, you know? I want to do what feels right for me, you know? I’m tired of over investing or being overly cognizant of how other people feel and what they’re thinking. And I think that feels good. It feels good to be myself and you know see what happens. It’s very empowering, it’s very like liberating. Like yeah, I have a girlfriend but I don’t know if it’s the exact right thing. It feels pretty good, everything’s going great but for some reason I feel the need to just kind of be open and not shut the door on other things completely. And I don’t feel bad.

(Pause): [00:15:35 00:15:41]

CLIENT: So I guess what I’m saying is that there has been a – it’s been definitely building up to this with all this hard work but there’s a very, like I’m just very, I’m very focused on doing what’s right for me. Do you know what I mean? Whether that’s music or writing or projects or whatever the fuck it is I just – it’s finally become the priority.

THERAPIST: I think that’s what’s so paradoxical about the way you are is that what you’re describing are such positive changes to be able to stand up to your mother when she’s like that and not kind of give in to it because you’re motivated by keeping her happy with you every which way. To just be yourself is so new and so good and so different and effective even. You’re saying having that voice is actually changing her a little bit. She’s hearing you some and yet as you do that I could also imagine another side is becoming that much more aware of how long you haven’t done that, too, and how sad. I mean it’s so much more you haven’t understood about how maybe even how compliant or how much you’d supplicate yourself to her in various ways and I get that maybe it would then eventually come to a head and something would explode but before that there would be a long period of time in between of –

CLIENT: Well I mean the fact of things I didn’t do.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That’s all of being compliant, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I wanted to go to San Diego State Universiry. I wanted to go to Armherst. I didn’t go because – at the time I’d found some – and I was a kid.

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: But clearly that was all her bullshit.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Her and her extended family’s bullshit. My dad wouldn’t have been happy but he would have gone along with it. I don’t think he ever said one word about Boston College or if he did he just – yeah, he’d be like, son, wouldn’t it be nice if you were like around. No. No, no. It was very like, I don’t remember ever any issues with him on that front. Yeah, no, definitely. I’ve thought about that a lot. I’ve made – there have been many choices I’ve not made because of this bullshit.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:18:08 00:18:16]

CLIENT: And choices I did make that I didn’t want to make. Brown. You know getting engaged to an Assyrian chick. Tons of stuff. I mean tons of stuff.

(Pause): [00:18:25 00:18:36]

CLIENT: I will say though that sadness is – I mean it’s definitely there but it’s changing and the reason I know it’s changing is because now like even right now thinking about it, it’s not having the same effect and I think it’s because I’m so – I’m in such a creative period that that’s finally kind of do you know what I mean?

(Pause): [00:19:01 [00:19:10]

CLIENT: So that’s a very good thing.

THERAPIST: Well you’ve once – you said that when you’re only just feeling that sadness but not feeling something you’re moving toward, it’s unbearable.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. Now I feel like I’m reflecting.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And that’s sad just like a lot of people have. Like I don’t feel so alone like I feel like so many – I have this and other people have – yeah, I was fucking raped four times in my 20s or whatever, you know? People have other things that they look back on that have derailed them somehow, somewhat.

THERAPIST: And people are even still living lies which are complying with their –

CLIENT: That’s right, yeah, yeah, I’m ahead of the game. That I know. I know that – not even with parents, I know that, finally I get even if just as a person that I’m way ahead of the game. I mean I have a lot of friends. Whether it’s their parents, people are just aren’t doing any self-reflection and working on themselves. And there’s a part of me that’s cliché, but I mean I don’t really believe, I don’t know, things happen for a reason or whatever, but things happen so I feel like, well I wouldn’t be as creative as – and I think that’s true. I wouldn’t have – my book wouldn’t be my book if I hadn’t gone through what I did. You know what I mean? I have to also think about that. And right now being so creative it’s well, so -

THERAPIST: But this is still your story, it is a story.

CLIENT: What’s that?

THERAPIST: It’s your story.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And it’s something. It’s not something that’s only done to avoid it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s not like I’m trying to yeah. Before it was like I was trying not like – completely disconnecting myself from that and you can’t, you know, you have to – what the (unclear) did to you in the present, you know, it’s a very different thing.

(Pause): [00:21:08 00:21:17]

CLIENT: But yeah, no, it’s amazing like how much, just how better I feel. It’s really, it’s pretty awesome.

(Pause): [00:21:24 00:21:34]

CLIENT: The only thing now is I don’t feel like there are enough hours in a day. And I do feel really tired like I just – you know, yesterday I only did three things. I did a little day job stuff. I mailed out more CDs for the Kickstarter people that I’ve checked in. And it literally took me hours. You know Tumbler? You know, like I was on there for hours and hours going through music blogs and submitting, you know they have dropbox things that you just drop – that took forever. But it’s got to get done. I mean it’s like – yes, I do feel overwhelmed. It’s like and then a novel and now this anthology and they’re all things I want to do. I was talking to Kelly about it and there’s no easy way to – you can’t schedule that shit. I can’t be like, hmm, I’m going to write my novel now from 9 to 10 or whatever. I don’t work that way. I need like – so I was just telling her I was like you know I just have to accept that right now that’s the way it’s going to be. There’s just so much – it’s all good. So I just have to focus on the fact that it’s all good. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices like sleep and whatever to get some shit done that’s important to you.

(Pause): [00:22:58 00:23:34]

THERAPIST: This comes back to those feelings we ended with the last time. We think about what’s there kind of underneath the rush of new productive feeling coming about as the two sides conjoin, you know, what it means to be alone with mom from your father’s death in this way.

(Pause): [00:23:57 00:24:11]

THERAPIST: Just what you feel if it weren’t quite so fever pitch.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: What’s there.

(Pause): [00:24:13 -

CLIENT: I would have what? What? What would I feel if I wasn’t so overwhelmed with all this stuff?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Last week you were saying you were just feeling like there’s just – what is this? Like you’re pushing, pushing, pushing, working, staying up late and some of that’s great but is there any too muchness about it? And we were talking about all that you hadn’t gotten to yet about what it means to be freeing up.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, I see. Yeah, I don’t see it as a negative. Like the more I thought about it I was like I don’t –

THERAPIST: Oh, I’m not saying it was a negative.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Just that it has meaning.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s all.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, I think the meaning is that it’s finally a healthy way to put the past in perspective and move on. You know it’s like all these parts keep saying, you can. Like it’s exciting, like good things are happening that I care about and I like what I’m producing and it feels good to be like, yeah, I clearly don’t have ADHD. Obviously. I have PTSD but don’t have fucking ADHD. You know, like I’m very focused and I’m so – there is a little bit of that, you know, rushing, passive, you know, whatever but the more I think about that, I mean that’s a very common thing and a lot of creative people, academics, a lot of people just take on a lot of projects and they, until certain things get done, everything is give and take. You have to pay the price for getting things done that most people don’t do. I mean it’s hard to do these things. So.

(Pause): [00:26:18 00:26:24]

CLIENT: I think that the bad thing would be if it’s so consuming that it’s somehow alienated me from people or it, I don’t know, yeah.

THERAPIST: Sometimes it feels that way though.

CLIENT: No, not at all.

THERAPIST: With your mom.

(Pause): [00:26:42 00:26:50]

CLIENT: In a way it’s the opposite. In the times that you spend with friends or whatever are really nice because I don’t feel like I’m – in the past I’d feel like I was kind of fronting a little bit. I mean like I’d be with my friends and having a good time, but I’d be feeling bad, guilty that really I’m just being lazy or I’m not you know, whatever. But, yeah, I don’t feel that way now.

THERAPIST: Even in relationships you feel more present.

CLIENT: With relationship – with Kelly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: With Kelly you mean?

THERAPIST: Or with friends or –

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally. Totally.

THERAPIST: And with your work.

CLIENT: Totally, yeah. Like yesterday I went to see her in Providence and we had a nice – we just hung out. We have a bar that we love to go to because it’s nice and quiet and we just talked and yeah, like yeah I don’t feel – there’s no – we just had fun. You know, we just talked and I don’t know. And I think that’s what it is. If I’m with my friends or if I’m with Bethany or like, I think that’s the good feeling. So I kind of don’t understand this moment and I don’t feel bad. It feels good to just be alive and not be who I was or not feel the way I used to feel.

(Pause): [00:28:11 00:28:43]

CLIENT: I got some fan mail.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Off the record. Yeah. My friend’s son, he’s a senior in high school followed me on Facebook and was like I really loved the record. It’s awesome.

THERAPIST: Is he a friend of yours?

CLIENT: It’s actually a chick I used to like to kind of hook up with. She’s older than me a little bit but we kind of – it’s very, very friendly. She got married. She already has a son or something – this is her son from her first marriage or something. So then I guess she played my music or something and he was like really into it so when I sent the CD so that was really cool.

THERAPIST: How nice.

CLIENT: Yeah, that was really cool. Yeah, there’s been a couple of things like that. Like people being very genuine in their responses, you know.

(Pause): [00:29:35 00:30:06]

CLIENT: And that makes me feel good because there is still that part of me, it’s a very tiny part but I think all artists are like you know, what am I doing, I’m all day on Tumbler and I’m like I might be pathetic. Am I being, like am I being I just want attention, but maybe I’m really not that good. You know what I mean? Like very fleeting, but it’s there. And I know that’s not the case but it’s important to get a little bit of feedback, you know, sometimes when it’s –

(Pause): [00:30:42 00:30:52]

THERAPIST: Especially when you had so little from the people – I mean that’s just what feels so apparent. How little recognition there was of your talent.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or even of your passion.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems like you’re just teaching yourself piano the other day and writing songs and doing it without anyone helping you do that or anyone bolstering you. There’s a little kid, and then middle child and how obvious it was, this was a total passion and still not – it wasn’t held in awe. Not just supported, but like –

CLIENT: Like nothing.

THERAPIST: Amazed by your child. Nothing.

CLIENT: There still kind of isn’t, you know? I mean there is but there isn’t. It’s a weird combo.

THERAPIST: It’s not amazement.

CLIENT: No, it’s – yeah, it’s not amazement. It’s almost like – what’s the word? It’s almost like begrudging respect.

THERAPIST: (Laughs) Right.

CLIENT: Oh, that’s awesome. Remember that. It’s begrudging respect. Like it didn’t matter that there were 100 people to see me at (unclear). It’s just like kind of proud – that’s my son, you know, whatever. But there’s no like wow, what the fuck? Nothing. Nothing. And here’s what I’m saying. Like even though my uncle and aunt were there, there’s not been one word after that.

THERAPIST: Oh, goodness.

CLIENT: You know, it’s just like, wow, dude, really? Why should I – like that’s why I just show up, okay I’ll eat the food, make small talk, but I’m not – you people are just ridiculous. You’re ridiculous.

(Pause): [00:32:34 [00:32:41]

CLIENT: But it’s such a – you can’t say anything because that’s sounds ridiculous to say something, like giving me attention, like what are you going to say? If you’re going to maintain a relationship with your family you’ve just got to find some other way to just distance and not you know, not let it get to you, but it’s insanity. It’s just insanity. I mean it’s a bizarre thing to have complete strangers constantly supporting you. You know what I mean? Like it’s pathetic. It’s fucking pathetic. But, and that does make me angry. When I think about it it makes me really angry.

THERAPIST: It’s insanity to want them to have attended to you and have known you and admired the things that were there to admire. You’re not asking to be, you know, have them blow sunshine up your ass for things that aren’t real.

CLIENT: That’s right.

THERAPIST: Right? It’s taken you this long to discover they’re real because no one ever even saw what was really there.

CLIENT: That’s right.

THERAPIST: But of course you can’t bring it up with them because they wouldn’t get it.

CLIENT: There would be a complete disconnect. We’ve always loved you. We loved when you used to play piano. Yeah. They would sound completely asinine.

THERAPIST: They’d have no idea what you were talking about.

CLIENT: And they’d get angry. We’ve come to your shows. We were at your poetry reading to support you. You know. It would sound completely – I would sound like out of my mind you know, so there’s no way. I think again, it makes me feel good that I’m not alone in this kind of thing. You know children have to somehow find through this kind of stuff or some other way to work on the – you know there is no –

THERAPIST: Right. Imagine you’re a child and your parents say, but I support you. I love you. Don’t you know? It’s crazy making for the child. You’re having these feeling of nobody quite gets me or it and yet they’re telling you they do so there are no words for your experience. No one is seeing what’s –f

CLIENT: It’s not clear-cut. I can’t go like yeah, but you used to beat me all the time. Like there’s no – it’s like taking it to court and I have no real evidence. Like I just have my word against their word kind of and the judge is going to be like well but they fed you and clothed you and loved you and had your best interests at heart and blah, blah, blah. Like it’s a very tricky thing.

(Pause): [00:35:16 00:35:32]

THERAPIST: And a child’s word isn’t much against an adult’s.

CLIENT: Of course. Yep. But again, so what’s feeling good though about all this is like I’m so driven now about the stuff I’m doing that now unlike any other time it feels like enough. Do you know what I mean? I’m happy. Like I’m doing real things in the real world that I don’t give a shit whether they understand or they don’t because what’s going to happen is they’re just going to keep – they’re going to come to another reading of mine and now there’s 300 people or whatever. Like I’m just going to keep doing things and they’re going to not get it or get it, I don’t give a fuck. But that’s what’s different now. Whereas in the past I was stuck in this weird – if I go to Harvard that makes me kind of like acceptable like – just all this bullshit.

(Pause): [00:36:28 00:36:33]

CLIENT: Which is why now when they ask me how I’m doing I just fucking list it off and look at them like they’re idiots. They’re morons. Yeah, my publisher is publishing this, I’m working on my novel. My record just came out. How’s your little business going? Just you know, there is no other way around it.

(Pause): [00:36:49 00:37:27]

CLIENT: And it’s also helped to feel compassion. You know I’m able now to just take a breath and step back and be like it doesn’t – they’re not evil people. They weren’t sitting around saying how can we mess up Brian’s life? That helps a little bit. It’s like they’ve got their problems. They’ve got their issues. They emote. It doesn’t make it any better but it helps, you know it helps to see them as people and not as a fucking cabal out to get me, you know? Because in a way they’re all doing this to each other as well.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well also that’s not just a justification, Brian, that’s another layer being yourself more in reality. They what they did to get you is its own kind of paranoia that isn’t true either.

CLIENT: Well not only that, when I feel that way I’m being like them.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That’s how they are.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: And whatever they’ve done to me they’ve done to each other.

THERAPIST: That was done to them.

CLIENT: Right. My uncle is the way he is because he’s the boy and they came from fucking poverty and he’s just driven by being materially successful.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I would be too I guess if I came from that kind of background and I’m the only son and things were hard and you know, all this stuff. And I would have this kind of Darwinian – music is for dilatants or you know. I’m proud of you but you know. So they all, you know.

(Pause): [00:38:57 00:41:13]

CLIENT: And it’s fairly, I mean it’s tough. Like it’s like a very hard thing to see how giving and supportive and selfless exchanges can be, or friends can be and like yeah, that’s a tough pill to swallow.

(Pause): [00:41:32 00:42:02]

CLIENT: When there is no motive, there is no –

(Pause): [00:42:04 00:42:17]

THERAPIST: Maybe that’s a good example of the teenage son of somebody that just seems so purely an expression of –

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Of not wanting anything else but just wanting to (unclear).

CLIENT: That’s right.

(Pause): [00:42:24 00:42:54]

THERAPIST: Here’s this teenager seeing something in you. I think you’re going to (unclear) admire.

(Pause): [00:43:00 00:43:12]

THERAPIST: Your mother was your mirror.

CLIENT: I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: Your mother was your mirror.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean she was miserable. She was – she’s super, super talented. My mom’s the real deal. She’s a literary intellectual. All for naught. You know what I mean? So that’s hard. Her, my aunt. You know, there not like hobbies. They’re the real deal. That’s got to be, I can’t even imagine. I mean I’m in this much pain with what – I mean, they literally, nothing happened for them. Not one thing. It’s no excuse for anything but it does explain things.

(Pause): [00:44:03 00:44:37]

THERAPIST: You know because it is hard to imagine now with you own son or daughter, you’re not sending you a sign to go see them.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: If you had a child in other words and could set yourself –

CLIENT: Oh my God, it’s a world of difference.

THERAPIST: And be just feel to be proud of them.

CLIENT: Oh are you kidding? That’s without a fucking question.

THERAPIST: Even if they were exceeding, succeeding at something that you never got to succeed in.

CLIENT: I wouldn’t give a rat’s ass.

THERAPIST: So see how easy that was for you to say, not a question in my mind would I be able to do that? And yet that wasn’t done for you.

CLIENT: Right. Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: So if it’s – you know, I think that’s some of the pain if it’s that easy to give – why couldn’t they do that?

CLIENT: Because they’re not my dad. You know, that’s all my dad’s side. That feeling I had, that was all my dad’s side. Their side is much more complicated and just fucked up. They’re just fucked up.

(Pause): [00:45:40 00:45:55]

CLIENT: I mean that’s how I am – I mean I know how I am with little kids. That’s how I am with my little cousin and I never think for once like, Jesus Christ, my little cousins are going to graduate from college. Like, I didn’t finish my PhD or oh it’s so easy for them. Their parents just pay their fucking tuition. I don’t think any of that. Why would I – good for them? Fucking lucky. That’s awesome. I would never, like I don’t – I mean, but that’s a general type of person. That’s like people that are resentful of their friends. They say good for you but really they want you to not do well. You know, there are a lot of people like that. I don’t have that. I want everyone to do well. Like it’s important to put out good energy and good you know, karma.

(Pause): [00:46:41 00:46:45]

THERAPIST: And when you have your problem it can also exist alongside having – I mean it would be normal to have some jealous feelings. We got into this before –

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Like of course you could feel jealous that their parents paid for their education and still want the best for them.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s right.

THERAPIST: Those can coincide.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: The answer isn’t that a parent doesn’t have those feelings towards a child, but they can help kind of (unclear) (cross talk) [00:47:08]

CLIENT: It’s the Chris Rock joke when he’s like guys, come look at their friend’s girlfriend or wife but man that’s awesome, like one day I want to have a girlfriend like that. That’s kind of like jealousy but it’s a good friend. I mean, that’s awesome. Maybe one day I’d like that too. But it’s like, women look at her friend’s husband or boyfriend and say, I want him.

(Both laugh)

CLIENT: That’s extreme, but that’s kind of what you’re saying. It’s like you wind up, of course, I can be like, it would be nice to buy a house on that Street, but I’m happy that my uncle as much as this stuff bothers me, I also get who my uncle is. Like and I told – that’s who I am. I told him at Easter, like you know as an uncle I’m really proud of you. Like to me that’s almost a roundabout way of bitch slapping them. Like I feel good. It’s like I’m so above you. I’m so, I’m showing you so much fucking compassion right now. Because I know that that’s what it is for him. You know, he came from nothing and it’s been hard and now he owns a house on that Street. That’s the pinnacle of whatever it is in his mind and so that’s great. I don’t, like I don’t – yeah, you’re right, it goes without saying.

(Pause): [00:48:32 00:48:41]

THERAPIST: Tomorrow.

CLIENT: 12:50? Right.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Thanks, Claire.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

END TRANSCRIPT