TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So how (ph) doing?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: So, yeah, I'm doing pretty good.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I had a good practice last night. Wow, it's going really well.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I was just sitting (ph) through some of the recordings. I just recorded some stuff on my iPhone and it sounds fucking great.

THERAPIST: Hmm. While you were practicing, um-hmm?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm really psyched.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It's going well. So you know...

(Short pause 0:00:35 to 0:00:38, then sigh)

(Pause 0:00:42 to 0:00:48)

CLIENT: You know, like it's funny. I was thinking like it's kind of like I'm circling the wagons in a good way.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I was thinking about this yesterday. Relationships-wise, this-wise, that. Like I'm just kind of just really taking care of myself, I think.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: It feels good.

THERAPIST: Say more about circling the wagons.

CLIENT: Well, I just mean like I'm not like, yeah, I'm going to... Like I'm not overthinking or dwelling or... And I think most importantly, I'm not putting other people's either perceptions or wants or whatevers, expectations, ahead of mine.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: So yeah. I think I spent a lot of years like just feeling guilty and shameful or whatever. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Even in relationships, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And I just don't now. It's just like eh... I just don't feel bad. Like tomorrow I was supposed to maybe drive down, and I just I kind of don't feel like it. [0:02:02]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know, I feel like I saw her... I drove down there Tuesday.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know, I just feel tired kind of like.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: We're going to see each other Saturday anyway.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I don't feel bad. I'm like yeah, yeah. That's not a big deal. It's not... And not to mention we're seeing... She's done that a couple times. You know, she... Which I totally understand, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, she's [going to be] (ph) "I'm really tired" or "I don't think I can today, I'm sorry," or whatever. Yeah, no problem, you know. So it's like in the past I'd not think of that. You know, I'd be like "Oh, my God, I'll cancel," and trying to think something...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't give a fuck. Like I don't feel like it, you know.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: And it's the same with family. I just kind of feel like yeah, just fine (ph). Like I thought yesterday was very symbolic. I was going to practice. [0:03:02]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And just as I was about to leave the house, my mom called me, again, like the fourth time in the same day, and said "Oh, your uncle and aunt and grandmother are coming over, so come to ..." I didn't even answer the phone. She just left a message.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: So as I was leaving, they were coming in.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: And I thought like I came around, because my entrance is in the back of the house.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: So as I came around, I saw them and, you know, said hi to them and stuff, but I thought it was so symbolic in a way. [Did it mean] (ph) like "They're all getting together." I'm like "See ya," you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And that felt good, you know. It felt good to be just like "Ah, no, I'm not even going to stop in and say hi. You know, like say hi, but "I've got to go now." So...

(Pause 0:03:44 to 0:03:52)

THERAPIST: You're stopping in.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:03:54).

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause 0:03:55 to 0:04:06)

THERAPIST: And then something just develops sometime in the (inaudible at 0:04:08). It's like a...

CLIENT: Well, yeah.

THERAPIST: Honing in on getting closer and closer to yourself or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I just yeah. It's just like I feel like I'm protecting myself now, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Which I think what everyone needs. Even if you have lots of love in your life and a perfect family...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, People need to be able to be protective of themselves and kind of nurture themselves, kind of be good to themselves, you know. So I finally kind of feel like I'm kind of getting there.

THERAPIST: Umm.

(Pause 0:04:41 to 0:04:45)

CLIENT: Like it was interesting. Yesterday, after practice, Stu the guitar player, he saw some and he's kind of like protective. He's got a very thin radar for like "You know, what did you mean by that? Are you trying to be a dick or..." You know what I mean? Like he's very, you know... Not in a bad way. I think it's actually very sweet. [0:05:03]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: It's kind of like protective of people, you know. So after practice, Grey had to leave right after practice, but we went to get a beer, me, him and the bass player, and Stu's like "You know, Grey's been kind of a bitch to you lately," to me.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And it was kind of cool, because Philip and I, we're like, he's 27, you know, and he's I wouldn't know if he was really -

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: trying to be a yeah. He's a little prickly.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And snarky.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And he's 27. He's covering up all his insecurities and all his little... He's got this hipster front that he has and does (ph) like trust I was like it's kind of cool that you're that we're all kind of protective of each other," you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: But I was like "Dude, honestly, like I'd smack him down in a second if I thought he was really being some dick." He has like he's kind of awkward, and socially awkward, and his tact isn't very good, and his humor is a little bit like in-your-face kind of humor. And like and like some of the stuff, I don't mind it. You know, if he says "Yeah, I really like that part," it's very blunt, but I'm like I'm so confident I don't I know when I have a good song, and I just humor him and... And I said "Sometimes you might be right about certain parts." [0:06:20]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I was like "No, man, it doesn't, you know..." I just wish it was better -

THERAPIST: It's not getting under your skin.

CLIENT: No, not at all, not at all. And especially because I know when we play, he's fucking into it. It's not like he's like hating being there, you know, like -

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk) yeah.

CLIENT: So it wouldn't make sense for someone to be in a band and be an asshole. I mean that does happen, I guess, but... At a point where no one's making any money or anything, why would you put time into something that you're not...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I was just just a lot of things. I just wish he was a better drummer.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That's what matters to me. I just don't think he's... You know, I think we do need to try out we need to see what this would sound like with one really solid, tight drummer, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. [0:07:06]

CLIENT: Because we're all playing so well.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I think it could really elevate things. You know, and I like to look and at shows, people respond to him a lot because he's a very unusually energetic drummer, he moves around a lot.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: So that's great, but it has nothing to do with playing the way I want to hear it played and that, so... And I guess my point is even that. Like that's kind of like sort of going you know, not like it's all good.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, it's...

(Pause 0:07:34 to 0:07:40).

CLIENT: It felt good to have the bass player agree with that, so that I was like "All right, so I definitely am right about this," you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Because Philip was like "Yeah." He's like "I don't get that," so, you know, I... And Philip is like 45. You know, So like I think we had a little different...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Stu is like 33, you know.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: I think he's a little he just doesn't like shit like that, he doesn't like it, and I don't blame them if it's real, you know. [0:08:03]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: But sometimes you've got to cut people slack when you know they're just being either immature or... Or then they don't even real like they're just being themselves, and they're just trying... You know, it's not a big deal.

THERAPIST: Hmm. What's the difference in not taking these minor things to look as feeling exactly like your family?

CLIENT: Not at all; that's the funny thing.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: Especially something so personal. It's my music.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: You know? Not at all. Like yesterday I played a new song. And he was like "Yeah, I still I don't know (inaudible at 0:08:40)." He was very blunt, you know? I was like "Yeah, whatever." It's like I just don't care.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm, um-hmm.

CLIENT: It's like he might partly be right.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Or I might come back to that song, like "No, you know what? I really do like this song." It's how much doesn't bother me at all, you know. And that's different than saying, "Yeah, ." I mean Grey could be a little more tactful. [0:09:03]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And socially less awkward, but that's nothing to do with me or Stu or Philip or... That's just Grey, you know. He's a kid.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

(Pause 0:09:12 to 0:09:50)

(Yawning sound)

CLIENT: Excuse me.

(Pause 0:09:51 to 0:10:13)

CLIENT: I think, like, the only I'm going back to what you said I think yesterday. But he's all like, you know the only thing that still does get me is when I stop to think about like what you're saying, like about, you know, all those years of like just kind of being invisible.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm..

CLIENT: That you know, that's -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. It doesn't make me angry.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: No. But, like, luckily, all this creativity and the way I'm feeling is counter-balancing that, because I don't feel stuck any more.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: So then I can just look back. And again, it really makes me angry but doing all this stuff now and I feel, you know... Whereas, before, I felt angry about it and still in it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? I felt like it wasn't over yet, you know, but yeah. So... The hard thing though is that this whole kind of it's permanently changed the way I'll interact.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I'm like (ph) eh, you know... And if you're not going to make a complete like stop talking to people, then... Yeah, it's tricky, you know, because then you've got to be with people who you can't... It's an interesting balancing act. But I was thinking about that, too; it's like that's what people do though.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Right? That's what people do. They'll go to Tricia's (sp?) house for dinner, but they won't stay that long.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Or they [just won't] (ph) talk about certain things. Really that's in a way, it's like what I was saying yesterday; now it's normal. [0:12:11]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: That's what families... They don't go over at each other's fucking and sit there for like seven hours, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-umm.

CLIENT: They go there, have dinner, they chitchat, they keep things light, and they leave, you know. They really don't they learn how to dose things. Like they learn what dosages they can handle with their aunt or their grandmother or their (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And that's all this is, you know. But now it's coming from such an extreme, [or if everybody up] (ph) each other's [by it] (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, and it's...

(Pause 0:12:40 to 0:12:47)

THERAPIST: You know, or the other thing that I guess is sad about what you're saying, and not it's not a horrible crushing sadness, because it kind of [worked toward] (ph) (inaudible at 0:13:01) is part of what's allowing creativity to come forward but is that people learn to dose, or they actually like the feeling.

CLIENT: Oh, well, yeah. [0:13:18]

THERAPIST: And that I think that's a piece of it, too, is just the loneliness.

CLIENT: Yeah, that part is sad, yeah, yeah. But some people I think it's the vast minority, but it's there. You know, there are a lot of people that love spending time with their families there.

THERAPIST: And love, because (ph) that may be too black and white, but that there's enough -

CLIENT: I can well, we can call it love; that they like their families, because to me, that's different.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm, right.

CLIENT: I love my family.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I really go out of my way for them.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: But that's different than liking them as people I just want to have coffee with. That's very different, you know. Like my dad's side, I love them and I like them. I want to hang out with them.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I'm going to joke around with them. I want, you know... My mom's side is more just obliga not obligatory, but I mean it's blood. I just love these people. And they have shown me love; it's not like they were beating me or something.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: So it's like it's complicated. [0:14:06]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: They just weren't giving me the kind of nurturing and attention and validation I needed. But there's lots that they wouldn't have done anything for me, and they have done a lot of things for me. So, umm...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So but yeah, I know what you mean, I know what you mean. There are a lot of families who they all seem kind of like they're friends and they yeah.

THERAPIST: Or at least, where even if it's not something you would exactly fond of, where there's not a possibility of communication going somewhere.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I think that's also what you have been seeing in person and other times have tried.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: If only so far as you can get it.

CLIENT: Yeah. That that makes me not feel as bad, because that's a family problem.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And none of them communicate.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes.

CLIENT: So that, that never felt like it's just me.

THERAPIST: Oh, I'm not saying anything is just you.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess what I'm saying was that part doesn't make me as sad as just not being seen and respected more and validated, you know. The communication part, there's a language problem. There's a, you know.... Because then maybe it's just I from an earlier age, I just for some reason, I kind of got that, you know what? I think even great families have this problem. 0:15:27

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: The new generation.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, it's hard to express certain... First of all, it's just it's an immigrant mindset.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: There is no, like, talking about sex or, you know...

THERAPIST: Umm. Um-hmm.

CLIENT: There's no... There's no, like, let's have a talk.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: There is nothing like that.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And that's even in my friends, Assyrian friends, who have better relationship with their families.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: It's not because they sit around and have, like, talks. It's just because they get along.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: They just get along better, you know. But most of the Assyrian or other American families I know are more like my family than mine, the majority of them are.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. [0:16:09]

CLIENT: I'm actually way better. The guys that we use when we do this and their mom lives one of them even lives I've told you he lives with his mom.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: They never, ever... They just don't have a family these guys have always just not kind of cared. They take care of their mom, but it's a real old-school kind of... I mean I do talk to my mom, more or less. I mean I treat her with some respect, you know.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: These guys are getting they don't take their mom seriously in any way, you know?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And a lot of immigrant sons are like that. They're not they'll buy their mom a house or something, but, you know...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Kind of like my uncle with his mom.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, he just he loves his mom, but it's very he really doesn't take her he never has taken her; I believe that seriously.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Umm...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: You know, like my poor grandmother; she got her license back in '85. I remember, because and she called and I (ph) was all excited. And yeah, you know, my uncle was a young guy back then; he wouldn't get her a car. He sided with my grandfather, so really weird. "Oh, there might be an accident. You won't know. She'll get lost." And so all of these years this woman could have been, you know... So like it's just it's a family problem; like they just don't...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: There's like a lot of invisibility, a lot of like -

THERAPIST: In theory, that's just yeah.

CLIENT: Instead of saying "Wow, Mom, you came from this other... You don't know a fucking lick of English and you're just so energy (ph). Why you did it?" She said "I want to get a license."

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: "Let's get you a fucking car, like, just so you can drive..." Where's she going to go? To my aunt, to her other daughter, to be... I mean to the grocery store, to be able to do certain basic things like just... You know?

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: Just wow, very strange family.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. If you feel (ph) how she almost doesn't absorb (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. And she speaks soft.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, you know, even now, in this state, if it comes up, she'll be like "My husband, he you know, all I wanted to do was drive a car and he wouldn't let me."

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, like she's, you know yeah, she's a very... I mean now, you know, now my uncle will do like, you know, "Oh, if, you know imagine if she was born here; you know, she'd be some amazing woman." I said, "Well, she is a fucking amazing woman. You know what does that mean, if she was born... If you were born here, maybe you'd be a senator. What the fuck does that mean?" [0:19:07]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Like she isn't amazing? All she wanted was a car and to be she wanted to start businesses all the time, so I mean... It's just like...

THERAPIST: It's very sad.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's very sad, you know? And I love my grandfather, but between him and my uncle, they just had a weird I don't know what the fuck that was all about.

(Pause 0:19:32 to 0:19:42)

THERAPIST: Something that didn't (inaudible at 0:19:43)?

CLIENT: Yeah. Definitely (inaudible at 0:19:46) from my grandfather's perspective, definitely, yeah, yeah; I (ph) used to take one. But it is weird. I mean it's so not manly.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Don't you go get your license? You moved here in, like, ‘68.

THERAPIST: Your grandfather never did.

CLIENT: No, never got a license.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:20:06]

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying. So that's why it was so amazing that my grandmother did.

THERAPIST: Huh (ph).

CLIENT: She could drive him around, that they could shop, and, you know, all his life he just walked to the store. They always happened to live near a grocery store, you know. Like that's some weird shit, you know?

(Pause 0:20:22 to 0:20:29)

CLIENT: I don't know.

(Pause 0:20:29 to 0:20:35)

THERAPIST: It sounded like he'd be (inaudible at 0:20:37) with someone driving him around.

CLIENT: I've told my mom that, too, yeah; that when they've brought this up, I've told them. I was like "Yeah, he probably couldn't handle that: "What the fuck? I'm not going to drive if she is." That's, you know... He was old school. So there's probably some yeah. "She's going to n be my driver and have that power, you know." Yeah. But see, I don't know where my uncle stands, you know. He should have been like "We don't have... Dad, come on. I mean, you know, we live in the United States; we've got to drive, you know. [0:21:06]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: It's weird.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(Pause 0:21:09 to 0:21:26)

THERAPIST: It's like anyone using their head thinks they're peasants (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That the people at (inaudible at 0:21:32) mixed messages.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not all that much support.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You need to get a license (inaudible at 0:21:42) and be in the country, riding around.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I was really thinking about this. It came up at Easter, because I was talking to my cousin's husband.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Like even, you know, my mom working.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Like, see, everything counts from somewhere, right?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't think of my mom as ever validated, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Like I don't think that people have "Wow," like "Sis, good job," that "We're so proud of you." She never got them to show that (inaudible at 0:22:09). So it's all around. You know, it's all it's like a hot potato they keep passing around, you know? [0:22:19]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean nothing ever gets acknowledged.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For what it really is.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know, but that in a weird way, I've got to say I mean as much as I have issues with my mom, she's better at that.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Maybe it's maybe he (ph) gets more in her later years, she's gotten better. But you know, she's much more like she does say things to her sister like "You have such a beautiful voice. You should be on (inaudible at 0:22:45). It's a little late, but, you know, she's...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: And I guess my aunt, too (ph). Sometimes my aunt asked me, "Are you doing these? What's going on?" Yeah, so I guess it's really my uncle who completely is there's just nothing [worth in there] (ph).

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:23:05]

CLIENT: And my aunt who died, she was always she was always very she was more or less she would say things like "I'm proud of you" and stuff like that.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm, huh.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, she would.

(Pause 0:23:21 to 0:23:27)

THERAPIST: Do you want (ph) to put them older?

CLIENT: My mom.

THERAPIST: Your mom is the oldest?

CLIENT: Yep, my mom, the opera singer.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The one who passed away, and mom.

THERAPIST: Your aunt was a baby.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Had an aunt with two brothers who died when they were babies.

THERAPIST: Really.

CLIENT: Yeah. From malnutrition; kind of just died, yeah, so there were six.

THERAPIST: Both of them?

CLIENT: They both died.

THERAPIST: Were they twins?

CLIENT: No, they were twins, but they both died, I think as babies.

THERAPIST: Oh, I thought you said when they were six.

CLIENT: Oh, no, no. I'm saying that there were six kids. [0:24:01]

THERAPIST: They weren't malicious. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was my mom, then the opera singer, then the two boys.

THERAPIST: Huh. One, then the other.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think my aunts, and definitely my uncle. But my other aunt I think didn't know them, I think, but my mom kind of remembers them. And I think that my the opera singer I think remembers them maybe a little bit, I think.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Okay (ph). Yeah.

THERAPIST: Twins (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, it's amazing, right? And my grandfather was the only one of like nine to survive. He was an only child, but yet he had other siblings who all died.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: It's fucking crazy.

(Pause 0:24:43 to 0:24:50)

CLIENT: But yeah, that all was she was more something. I don't know, I can't put my finger on it, but she was...

THERAPIST: But you said also she was the favorite one. [0:25:03]

CLIENT: Yes, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Pretty dramatic with stuff (inaudible at 0:25:08).

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: The way (crosstalk) is split, what happened in time.

CLIENT: Yes, yeah. She went through periods where her and the opera singer aunt wouldn't talk, because they had things with their daughters.

THERAPIST: Sure (ph).

CLIENT: You know. They both and fucking notes. And there was my mom. Yeah, her husband was a bit I think I told you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He was kind of like cold and kind of weird, and my grandparents would take their side and... It was stupid, all stupid things but...

THERAPIST: Well, also sharing (ph) a birth order and getting (inaudible at 0:25:39), there's also this there's also this there's a girl, and then a girl, and then the two boys.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Who died.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then the sister. I mean the savior and sister.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

THERAPIST: Who comes sort of as a replacement.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And then the son.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then just seeing that genders -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And it was so much unconscious subtexts about female and male and -

CLIENT: Right, right, right, right. [0:26:04]

THERAPIST: And now, you know, when it's stirring in your mom's parents about these (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Right, right. That's why my uncle could do no wrong and they all just -

THERAPIST: Exactly. Yes.

CLIENT: kowtowed around him, yeah. On the one end, they'll be upset, or like they'll kind of gossip about certain things, but he just can't do anything wrong.

THERAPIST: Hmm. And likewise, that sister, and you only takes the place of the golden cow.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: A place that just, you know -

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: What was missing for a while. 0:26:32

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. No, she was cool. She was a cool aunt. Yeah, she had her issues, too, but, you know, her life was hard or, you know, her husband well, actually both of them. My mom was very lucky, you know. I had the most normal, in terms of parents, situation. Like her husband was just cold and kind of way older than her.

THERAPIST: Hmm, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think they're all kind of resentful. I mean they've gotten over it now a little bit, but I think it really hurt them; that their, like, beautiful sister... For so long, it was like this kind of cold, older, gruff not gruff, just cold kind of dude. And like now, he's fucking healthy as a fucking ox, and now his business is doing great and, you know, like I think they feel a lot of stuff for a long time. [0:27:33]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: But I think because they also see how much pain keeps in.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: That it's, you know...

THERAPIST: He's paying for... (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: Oh, I mean he immediately gets teary-eyed if...

THERAPIST: Thinking about...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Like if she comes up, he'll immediately kind of like start crying.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, they saw that, okay, he's human and... Like things happen, unfortunately, so many times. It's only once someone's gone that someone opens up and...

THERAPIST: Appreciates?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's too late, but at least it's like okay, you know...

THERAPIST: Yeah. 0:28:14

CLIENT: Now, with my other aunt, too; you know, he was kind of an alcoholic. And functioning; I mean he made a lot of money, a functioning alcoholic, but an alcoholic.

THERAPIST: Hmm. What did he do?

CLIENT: Retailer.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: A shop owner, you know. So, you know... Didn't treat his kids that great. He had a bit of a temper. Stopped his wife from singing, you know.

THERAPIST: Hmm, oh, he did. So it was his...

CLIENT: Yeah. He was very possessive and wouldn't let her yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh. Huh.

CLIENT: Which is un you know, it's like "Dude, you have all this money. You could like you could just support her," you know what I mean? You could just give her money to make CDs, and you know what I mean? Like just stupid, stupid.

(Pause 0:29:04 to 0:29:09)

CLIENT: Whereas my dad never even gave a rat's ass. She wrote, she was on the radio, she was...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: She was totally cool.

(Pause 0:29:16 to 0:29:35)

THERAPIST: Innocent possessiveness in the culture -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think is what you're also describing and saying "See you later, I'm going out."

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I think you know, I think this is something you find in a lot of traumatized cultures.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's that, you know, if you're out of my sight, anything can happen.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: You know? And you know, that's why my grandmother is very you know, before she was sick, she's very she'd be like "Well, Grandma, I've got to go to..." "Oh, well, where are you going? Come back soon." You know, it's like this thing, you know. I mean part of that is just sweet, just love, you know. But part of it is -

THERAPIST: It's known as anxiety. It's so terrible, anxiety. 0:30:20

CLIENT: Yeah. A lot of anxiety, yeah. A lot of anxiety, yeah. Again, that's why my dad's side is so unusual. I don't know how they it's weird. I don't know how they don't have that, but very, very different.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: They're different. Because most Assyrian families do have more of that, more of my mom's side. They're just very up-in-each-other's business and...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(Pause 0:30:49 to 0:31:03)

CLIENT: It's funny though, and now that I'm thinking about it, it's my aunt who passed away.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. [0:31:11]

CLIENT: Her both her daughters, especially her older daughter, my godson's mom... You know, I think I've told you.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: It's funny, because they're the most of everybody, they're the most I don't want to say normal, but like they would really ask how I'm doing. They'll really inquire. They really want to hear. They really they're really supportive, you know? So it's funny how it's her, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean her husband has nothing to do with that, but he just happens to be that kind of guy, which is very genuine and asking and wanting to know and, you know, like...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

(Pause 0:31:56 to 0:32:05)

THERAPIST: Well, she must have sound like she was got a different kind of modern (ph) appreciation herself. [0:32:12]

CLIENT: Our cousin?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: My aunt?

THERAPIST: Your aunt.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Who passed away. As the favored one.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, there's something qualitatively different coming towards the (crosstalk).

CLIENT: She yeah, yeah. She didn't yeah, I see what you're saying, yeah.

THERAPIST: In other words, it has its own drawbacks, too, being favored, but that it's...

CLIENT: She probably felt better about herself on some level, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. And so even her mothering, then, for her own daughters -

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: could give off something a little bit -

CLIENT: A little more confident and grounded and yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Although one of her daughters isn't that. I mean she's awesome, but she's got a lot of issues. But I think that's just because she was young and her mom died, you know, so I think she's kind of fucked up from that.

THERAPIST: Umm.

(Pause 0:33:00 to 0:33:06)

CLIENT: Umm, yeah.

(Pause 0:33:06 to 0:33:28)

CLIENT: It's actually that's a whole other saga. Like so those two odds have two kids each.

THERAPIST: Yeah, two kids in a million.

CLIENT: The opera singer and the one who passed away.

THERAPIST: Right, yeah.

CLIENT: They both have two kids.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: The older non-equi-listings (ph) were supportive of... Then there's Patterson, but then they have two daughters who are like exactly the same age.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And both of them are kind of like fucked up.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:34:02]

CLIENT: Like the one here, has weird social anxieties; doesn't have hardly any friends. He's a weird insomniac.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Has been with the same, like, high school loser forever.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Like a real kind of loser guy. Has weird anxieties; like he won't eat certain things, won't drink out of a glass cup or something. I don't know, just kind of weird things. Then the other one, she won't drive on the highway. She's got certain... It's interesting that those two I don't know if it's because they both lost their parents when they were like still girls, like, you know, somewhere between 12 and 15, I don't know or if the mother is... I don't know what it is, but the rest of us all have our and obviously, there's me. But we all have our things, but not like they don't manifest the way they do with those two, you know? [0:35:12]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: Like was she was like "I just like do. I didn't give up." She's like "I can't. Like I've tried so many days with her and I've still got an eyeball (ph) for to pay for her therapy." I've offered to..." And she's like "I just can't." I just can't deal any more with, like, negativity, you know?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know? I can't deal with it. I've got two little kids. You know, I'm trying my best and I can't, you know...

(Pause 0:35:39 to 0:35:49)

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: It is sad.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of like layers of...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

(Pause 0:35:54 to 0:36:01)

CLIENT: At least with Ethel, my other cousin who's that age, her boyfriend is really nice. He's a physical trainer and he's like he's got a good head on his shoulders, you know. From what my aunt tells me, he really cares about not just Ethel, but just he has this kind of like he has concern for everyone, you know, so he's too -

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:36:24) person.

CLIENT: Yeah. He seems like a good person. I met him he was at Easter; he was a very nice guy. But with Shauna it's just she seems to be like stuck, you know? It's weird. [0:36:35]

(Pause 0:36:35 to 0:36:41)

CLIENT: Like stuck. And, you know, there are like 35 now; not children, you know?

(Pause 0:36:43 to 0:36:51)

THERAPIST: Maybe you can ask them if they identify with what that would sound (ph) like.

CLIENT: Absolutely, yeah. But what's hard is that I've always tried, like, "Well, you know, I went through it. Maybe I can help her," because I... But she's just some... You can't force someone to... You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: Like I've called, and like, "Dude, literally you can walk here in five minutes, literally. Just come over," you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:37:18]

CLIENT: You know, she just won't do it, won't do it. And when she sees me, it's, you know I can tell, like it's there, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: But, you know, it must be just so bad that she can't even reach out and... And I know I've seen the way she's she doesn't want to talk about anything. She'll snap at her sister. She'll, you know... So it's it's tough. And that's I think for women, that's harder, you know what I mean? She's 30.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: Ten more years, for me, it's like whatever, you know? But five years, ten more years, then slowly she's like "Fuck."

THERAPIST: Um-hmm. [0:38:01]

CLIENT: "I wanted to have a kid. I wanted..." You know? I mean I think it's different for women, you know, so...

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: She takes like a lot of not a lot well, I don't know, but she's been taking Adderall a long time.

THERAPIST: Umm.

CLIENT: So you know what I mean? So now that I've been doing that (ph), it's like I don't think she has ADHD. I think she's just super-fuckin' depressed and...

THERAPIST: She sounds terribly depressed and terribly anxious to and all the other symptoms.

CLIENT: Yeah. Big times. Yeah, big times.

THERAPIST: Huge (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Like her face still kind of breaks out. She's always really thin.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(Pause 0:38:40 to 0:39:09)

THERAPIST: You've tried this hard (ph) and not a lot of people tried to talk to you.

CLIENT: I've done with all of them, I have, because all their parents they all lost one parent. So I've always been clear with them, that they can always, like, come to me or they can always talk to me or they can always, you know... Yeah.

THERAPIST: And (inaudible at 0:39:32) (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. Yeah, that part is sad; I mean it just is what it is. That's a hard one.

(Pause 0:39:37 to 0:39:55)

CLIENT: I do find that it is kind of healing or something to do that, you know. It's sad, but I do find strength in that, you know, like. Because even back then, I was still fucked up. Like when my aunt was just -

THERAPIST: You lived in (inaudible at 0:40:22).

CLIENT: Yeah. And I remember even then it was like, wow, man, I'm fucking tough.

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: I was the only person that my uncle, the one in the cold kind of at the hospital, I was the only one he completely broke down with.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: We were just walking down the hallway. I don't know what I did. I think I just put an arm on him like this or something. He just fucking... I've never seen that. I never talked about him. I didn't tell anybody about it, you know. I mean, you know... but even then, I remember thinking like, man. I mean it's not cool, but I just felt, wow, I'm strong, you know?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: There's something healing about that. You know, going from my aunt, you know, helping her clean the fucking blood off her kitchen floor, you know; that's a character builder, you know? It just shows you who you are, you know, so... [0:41:20]

THERAPIST: Character revealer.

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: Character revealer.

CLIENT: Yeah, in a way. Yeah, yeah. In a way, I got to know myself. I was like wow, I'm doing this now? Like, you know...

THERAPIST: Well, wasn't it just shows another part of you that was not noticed, like you as someone with tremendous empathy for other people's experience.

CLIENT: Umm, yup.

THERAPIST: Who was there for your uncle.

CLIENT: Yup.

THERAPIST: And somehow you feel safe enough.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or seen enough by that he can...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, and that's all my dad. When I thought about it more, I was like "You know what? You probably did that with me," because I'm the thread to my dad, you know? And they all miss my dad so much. Because, you know, they don't talk about my dad, and that's always how you know that's a sore spot, you know? Or when they do, it's very kind of quick and you can tell there's something there, you know? So maybe that was... You know what I mean? Because that's who my dad was. He was really, really tough, but so gentle and sympathetic and, you know... Yeah. And it's funny, my mom sees that now.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Every so often, she'll be like "You lost everybody." He has such a good attitude. He sees the best in everybody. You know, she kind of...

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

(Pause 0:42:53 to 0:43:04)

THERAPIST: She catches a glimpse like that. [0:43:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. She finally I think sees that, you know, it's... Yeah, yeah. And she says it. She's like "He's like his dad. You know, he's very..." Or she'll say "He's a typical piece (ph).

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, he just...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Or she'll say things like, "You know, he you know, he's all about fairness and "

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: You know, things being right, you know?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: Which she is, too. They all are. [0:43:41]

THERAPIST: Um-hmm.

CLIENT: But because they're so fucked up, they haven't been allowed to let that... Because they thought if they're like that, somehow that's weak or that's... Do you know what I mean? Like they're supposed to just be paranoid and just stick together and... You know what I mean? It's us versus them and you hear all this weird shit.

THERAPIST: So tomorrow. Three ten?

CLIENT: Three ten, okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:44:16).

END TRANSCRIPT