TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(background noise until 00:00:24)

CLIENT: So yesterday's appointment was like (pause)...at the end of the appointment, we started talking about that. (sigh) Yeah, that stuff is always hard. (pause) It also...the other thing that (pause) it brings up for me is that I often want to call on my friends at that time. (pause) Sometimes I just want to call on my friends (inaudible) Like I don't know, wanting to connect or something, and my friend Jamie is (pause) the only person I know from that time that (pause) ever said or brought up that it was a (inaudible) situation. [00:01:38]

(pause) At the time she (inaudible) a variety of reasons...didn't really speak very healthy (ph). She was very, very soft spoken because her mom was really abusive.

THERAPIST: Is she the one who lived with you for a little while?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean she could speak loudly because she does sing opera. (laughter) When she sings when she sang in high school she has a loud, low voice. But at the time she would always sing so high you could never hear her and when she finally kind of stopped doing that it was really weird for her because suddenly...she was used to sort of saying things quietly and no one really hearing. And then she's like, "Shit, everyone can hear what I'm saying and I need to be a little more..." It was like she had been sort of talking under her breath for most of her life and [suddenly we can] (ph) hear it, which is awkward for her. [00:03:03]

I ended up not though, calling her. (pause) Also like (pause) a lot of that also ties into...tied into (pause) when people, well... (inaudible) obviously. (inaudible) couldn't. (pause) When people talk about...if someone's like, "I could have gone to Harvard but someone stole my spot," or, "Well I could have gone to school but..." Someone I know bitches about how she could have gone to an Ivy League except that her dad had misappropriated some inheritance that was intended for her college. So she brings it up a lot. She ended up going to one of the state colleges. [00:04:21]

And [then there] (ph) was (pause) that weird sense of entitlement. I don't know, like whenever someone says that what I think of is, "No you couldn't." Maybe I should think of it as like Emma saying that I had stolen her spot. Because one of the things is she failed the year before, which everyone knew. We all knew she failed the year before and we all knew she was failing that year and she never graduated from our high school. She ended up (pause)...I don't know...I'm assuming she got her GED. She did eventually go to some college. (pause) So yeah, I don't know. I've just been thinking about the crazy sense of entitlement of how people are like, "That should have been mine," or, "I should get somehow credit for (pause) that year that I could have gone to (inaudible) school but didn't." [00:05:48]

(pause) And also, I don't know. A lot of, a fair number, from a portion of people at the university...I feel a little weird sometimes saying, "Yeah, I went there."

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: It can kind of be a like a hot button little thing.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I don't think it's the best school in the entire universe. I know! I know! Striking. Yeah, I mean I actually did want to go there for a long time. (pause) But I wasn't like well...I kind of like talked to you about it and then finished. [00:06:42]

(pause) I don't know. I feel like the amount of crap I dealt with to get in, to stay in, and graduate (pause) I kind of don't want to hear about people like immature (ph) (inaudible). (pause) Which, you know, they do sometimes. (pause) So they don't [bring in a] (ph) top grad referral (ph) thrilled to discuss their great-ness.

(pause) Yeah, I don't know. (pause) Kris and I [had a good talk] (ph) a lot our freshman year of college (pause) and sophomore a fair amount and then, I don't know. It was just kind of (pause)...I don't know, interesting something because she went to [inaudible] (ph) which is where I've been wanting to go for several years. [00:08:15]

THERAPIST: Right. I didn't realize she went there. I forgot.

CLIENT: Yeah she went to [inaudible] (ph) and I had been planning to go there since my brother visited. (pause) And what made me (inaudible) against it is when I did my own weekend visit or whatever thing and they had a little meeting for (pause) prospective students who were people of color and all these different people were like, "Oh my God, it's so white here. My school is like..." I think everyone except for me and one other person had way more diverse high schools. My high school was actually less diverse than [inaudible] (ph). And I sort of had this moment of looking around and being like, "I don't...I really don't want to be..." I've had a long time of being that one black person on campus that everyone knows. I was just kind of done with that...very done with that, and thus school. (pause) In the end (inaudible) it, especially my freshman year. I loved it.

(silence from 00:09:42 to 00:10:07)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) ...to be anonymous like that.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. (pause) It was (pause)...it was really like...it was so... (pause) yeah, it was just amazing to me too. So many people have that (inaudible) with why it's so white, so much (pause) you know, it's so whatever. And my reaction was like, "Oh my God, look at all these people who aren't white." And the only real culture shock I or like whatever, there's always culture shock but to me the weirdest thing was in my high school all the honors classes were about a quarter Jewish if not more and the university isn't. So that weirded me out and then I remember talking to people who had never met Jews. I was just like, "What?" [00:11:28]

THERAPIST: You mean at school?

CLIENT: Yeah. My roommate had never met anyone who was Jewish. I think it came up around Hanukkah probably but it was just like, "How did you do that? You were in honors classes." (laughter) Like it was really natural in my head that that's just how it worked. (pause) So yeah, that was weird. I could go places and no one knew who I was. Like no one knew my brother, no one knew my parents.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I imagine (inaudible). I'm not saying (inaudible) but my impression is that's another way you sort of stood out sometimes.

CLIENT: It was really nice to not (pause) have different expectations. It was not to compare me to my brother's grades and yeah I totally wasn't this prissy (ph). In some ways I was like, "Wow, I'm maybe in like the middle!" Or in some classes, "Shoot, I'm here like (pause)..." Yeah, not doing well in the class was really (pause)...it wasn't good. It was just very novel. (pause) But yeah, it was nice to be like, "Oh, a lot of people here read a ton of books," and all of that. (pause) And also I discovered other sci-fi fans which (pause) I hadn't really in high school. (pause) And reading comics...I don't know. (pause) Just a lot of ways that I couldn't dress weirder than the pet rats (ph) even if I wanted to. I was like, "Nope, I'm just normal (ph)." When it came to sexuality I'm like, "Oh, there's a lot of that happening." [00:14:39]

THERAPIST: Sexuality?

CLIENT: The beginning of freshman year [they put] (ph) freshman in a little...it's kind of like a combination of safer sex, "Be careful," "Don't get roofied," "You might be gay," kind of like a conglomeration of information thrown at you. (pause) And so what was, to me, very refreshing and exciting kind of was how nonjudgmental people were. Previously to that my high school health classes were very judgmental and very heteronormative.

THERAPIST: Surprised by (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Yeah. It was (inaudible). I don't know. I saw some early relatively early teaching teens about JV, which (pause) didn't go well. But my parents were very nonjudgmental and open and I felt like no one else was so it was really inspiring to see how our RA would be like, "Yep, here are some things. Here are some condoms. P.S. you can get an abortion at the clinic. Run free." [00:16:27]

They also had the expectation...there's like this kind of, not expectation but implicit permission to go pry...like, "Go date someone or not or get drunk at a party and make out." I don't know. Not that I did but (pause) it was nice to have the option there and also the option to probably not see the person and probably not have that spread around the entire campus like it would in high school.

(pause) For me I like (pause) I don't spend a lot of time (pause) figuring out my sexual orientation and like that is kinky and (inaudible) and etcetera. And everybody would like nudie stuff and sort of like doing all of that (pause) but the one thing that I didn't do was I didn't join the Black Students Association or Black Women and (inaudible) and those groups. I didn't join the groups. I didn't go to their parties. (pause) When people were picking roommates and houses at the end of freshman year there was this kind of weird moment I remember I was talking to someone about my new dorm and he was pretending like, "So yeah, me and a bunch of other people, basically that I know from...who are (ph) students, are all going to the quad." I'm like, "Hmmm. I'm not doing that." I hadn't really thought about it but it was (pause) a little unusual. [00:19:05]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) going to the quad, [you know just] (ph) the fact that they are rooming together (inaudible).

CLIENT: Oh no, so at the time (pause) you could rank where you wanted to live. You could pick out your roommates and you could rank where you wanted to live in the houses.

THERAPIST: And nobody wanted to live in the quad right?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Ah ha!

CLIENT: The people who wanted to live in the quad were some of the athletes because it was close to some of their stuff.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And the Black Student...most of the active black students were in the quad. So like all the black student groups get to room in the quad. And then (ph) house was the Asian-American students and (inaudible) like (pause)...there were a lot of sort of racialized (pause) house identities that the university then sought to destroy. [00:20:12]

THERAPIST: Didn't they randomize (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Yeah, and they actually very successfully (pause) decimated a lot of (pause), I don't know, power that [the ethnic] (ph) groups had. Like the (inaudible) groups had because you weren't all there anymore. (pause) The truth hurt (ph). But yeah that was (inaudible). So at the time there was just...I didn't do that. Which I guess at the time I was like, "Whatever." (pause) It wasn't that I was rejecting the black student organization, it's that I didn't feel like I particularly knew...I didn't have a sense of black community that I was missing because I didn't have one. (pause) And at least my freshman year the people I knew who were talking about it a lot or encouraging like, "Oh you should go. It's so awesome," or whatever, they were people who grew up in black areas or had a lot of black people go to their school and they really missed that. And so I was kind of like oh, I don't really miss that. [00:21:45]

It's just weird now in that...so my brother and his wife are in Chicago and they will probably e-mail and text me like a couple dozen times like, "Oh do you know this person? This person?" And I'm always like, "I'm sorry. I wasn't black in college." And so it's really...it is awkward as an adult to now be like (pause) "Didn't know them. (pause) Didn't know them. (pause) Yeah, didn't know them." Like I maybe should of (pause)...actually I don't know. There is a way in which sometimes when (pause) I guess parts of it (inaudible) African-American networking groups, there's a lot of "Karen (ph) must have known this person because she..." (pause)

THERAPIST: Right, because you were black and at the university at that time. [00:22:54]

CLIENT: Right. (pause) Yeah, I don't know, I just...

THERAPIST: And then you also just want to help them.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm like, "Oh that person sounds interesting." Also just like it's a conversation killer because all I can say is no. And then like once or twice (pause) that Ashby's been like, "Oh, I met this person. Well you know [more about them] (ph)," or whatever and I'm just like, "Nothing." (chuckle) I can tell you whatever is on their personal website or whatever and that's it. [00:23:47]

(pause) So I do feel weird. I think it's a totally valid assumption to make that I might have known them. Seth (ph) and (inaudible) are both in their colleges, I think graduate schools, the Black Students Association, and my dad helped them to (inaudible). Yes, my dad helped [found it's Black Students Association] (ph). (pause) Yep.

THERAPIST: That's cool!

CLIENT: It is. I dug up old newspaper online. It had digi-typing everything online so I was digging around for information on my dad the other day and (pause) yeah, it was kind of weird because he was like, "Yeah, I did that. (inaudible) and then we did meetings in my apartment." (chuckle) And I was like, "Oh, you're so creepy." (pause)

(inaudible) and suddenly he's like, "Oh hey! Went to classes and graduated and did all that!" It was like I just needed to be on a search (ph) committee to have an African-American that could remember the sciences and all this awesome stuff. And I'm like, "That's really great!" It's a lot also. (pause) And when we were kids he talked about it and more stuff and there were photos in the album of my brother and my dad at a black student poster meeting but he never brought it up. (pause) My parents, they are...they relate a lot of their theory of dealing with race (inaudible) not talk about it, (pause) which was not ideal. [00:26:22]

THERAPIST: No I guess that's where I thought...[it's kind of a physical thing in itself] (ph) sort of nice hearing about the stuff your dad did in college because he's kind of out there more in a way that I don't generally get the impression of him being with you or he was representing himself that way with you.

CLIENT: Yeah, no like...I just didn't (pause) realize that he had a time of recreationalized politics because (pause)...I mean I could just read his articles and I'm just like, "That's not...my dad doesn't talk about that ever." (chuckle) You know? [00:27:16]

THERAPIST: (pause) It makes you wonder about your degree of aloneness with all this stuff, (inaudible)

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. (pause) I don't know. Like, I wonder what made him...

THERAPIST: He helped you I think.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I don't know what made him change as far as I know. (pause) I don't know if it was...wonder if it was working. Just saying the words (inaudible) which is, you know, kind of looking for demand as it were or like reading, teaching (inaudible). But yeah, it would have been (pause)...or even as a kid I noticed and knew that (pause) there weren't many black dolls for me to play with. Like I had some that my parents had bought me and then my friends did so that was annoying sometimes. And I know I kind of talked to them about it in the context of wanting another black doll or things like that but they never (pause) explained or sort of talked about like, "Oh, we can't find that doll here." But then I was like, "Ask one of my aunts in the midwest to send us something." Or if we were going to go down there for Thanksgiving which we did a couple times then I think they probably bought something when they were there. [00:29:42]

(pause) But yeah it would have been (pause)...it was also really nice to (pause)...like in terms of tips from my parents, I think my parents told me about college. I think I would have really (pause)...I think I would have really wanted to know that my dad was involved in Black Students and that he thought it was valid, valuable, and important thing.

THERAPIST: Do you wish you had been (inaudible)?

CLIENT: I don't know actually. I really don't know. I wished (pause)...I wish I had at least gone to a couple of meetings. (pause) But I don't know. (pause) I feel like in college I ended up developing and experiencing...I sort of, I basically didn't really think about my racial identity very much and I think that it could have been (pause) nice to (pause)...it would have been a good time to (pause) I don't know...experience growth, talk to other people at a time where there were a lot of other black people that I could talk to who were in a similar...I don't even necessarily want to say it would have been nice to be like oh, let's all talk about...whatever. [00:31:45]

THERAPIST: Are you saying...I guess part of my understanding is that (pause) you have such devastating experiences in high school that you would have been relieved to be somewhere where you didn't have to think about it as much.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that has something to do with your not...I guess there are a couple things. The other thing you mentioned was not feeling the lack of a kind of community (ph) because you hadn't had one growing up before that. But I guess [you are having] (ph) both of those things? [00:32:39]

CLIENT: Yeah and the other thing was is that I think one of the things I was doing in part...so my brother did join a black student group at school and so when he came back from school he would talk about it among other things. (pause) So I ended...so in college I think a lot of, when I thought about race, I thought about I don't want anyone...I want people to ignore that I have a race, is kind of where I was at. I don't want it to be...it's not that I don't want the issue; I don't want you to even know. Almost like I want people to forget that and (pause) it took me a while to sort of get past I want to erase my racial identity as opposed to I don't want it to matter in a negative way. I want people to acknowledge that I have a racial identity and they not be assholes about it. [00:34:03]

THERAPIST: Which is different from sort of not acknowledging it at all.

CLIENT: So the thing that would have been really helpful to have realized or understood earlier than I did was that I think the desire to be like, "I don't want you to think of me as a black person. I want you to whatever, whatever," is that that basically ends up being, "I want you to think of me as normal and white." It just kind of comes down to, "I want you to forget that I'm not white. I want you to treat me like..."

THERAPIST: I see. (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah, it really is. (pause) And I had worry...figure that out about gender and about a lot of other things.

THERAPIST: Figure that out...?

CLIENT: Like in regards to gender I was like, "I am a woman and I want you to..." and not like (inaudible). But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter in a negative way.

THERAPIST: Right, (inaudible) asshole about it.

CLIENT: Right but it's also important to me that you don't treat me like...they're like, "Oh you're just like a guy!" and I'm like, "No, I'm a woman who is also a human and blah blah." [00:35:42]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I got it. So you were kind of there with gender?

CLIENT: Yeah and I [was pretty confused] (ph) with sexual orientation and a bunch of other things and it took (pause) a while to slowly get there about race and I just wish I'd done...had sort of dealt with a lot of that in college or started to deal with it or just...

THERAPIST: I see. It would have been a good place.

CLIENT: Yeah it would have been really convenient. (pause) And I don't even think I wasn't even really...(pause) I don't think I even really...(pause) I just didn't...(pause) there were always things that I didn't know was going on that probably anybody else would have been like, "Oh hey!" Like this problem, it's like when I talk to (pause) teenage queer people I'm like, "Yep, I can tell you what that problem is, it's this, and these are some things that would help." (inaudible) I'm like, "I know to you this seems like you are the only person who's ever had this traumatic, difficult, experience. Actually, you're not." And I surely would have appreciated that. [00:37:30]

(pause)

THERAPIST: Or (ph) what?

(pause)

CLIENT: One thing I know that I was worried about was when my brother was at college one thing he talked about a couple times is that (pause) some people had said to him that you can't identify with your Finnish (ph) background. You have to reject that. And he was uncomfortable with it and I was super uncomfortable with it. And so I think a little bit in me thought well if I join the black student groups, will (ph) that happen? That would really suck. [00:38:26]

I was kind of invested in a multi-racial identity, in other words. But it would have been nice if someone was just like, "Hey, it's cool. It's okay. We're not going to do that." Or some (inaudible) were not assholes and I had an opportunity to react to that. (pause) Also I really wish that I had... (pause) I felt very... (pause) I didn't realize that the...I wish I would have known at the time that the experience of having of being black and having a close white friend do something really racist is really, really common at all until well after college. Yeah, that would have been really... [00:39:36]

THERAPIST: That's good to know I bet.

CLIENT: Yeah, to talk about and to...

THERAPIST: I thought about it. It must be pretty common.

CLIENT: Yeah, (pause) especially if you grow up in a predominately white area, (pause) that and dating. (pause) I just, I didn't know. I had thought that when I left high school a lot that the sort of white people being like, "Oh I can't date you because you're black," I had thought a lot of that was their parents wouldn't approve or some kind of...in my head I succeeded it with [super parent preventional] (ph), whatever, attitudes. So I thought that when I got to college in a city with all these people that that wouldn't happen anymore. And it totally did. And (pause) I just didn't have any...I didn't totally get what was going on or it would take me a while to be like, "Oh, right. It's that thing again." [00:41:17]

So that would have been awesome to talk to somebody about, or commiserate or just anything. (pause) I think what I miss the most is I guess just realizing or finding out that a ton of people are like that. A lot of times that I had were super common, other people would had them, so just knowing that would have been helpful and then also being able to talk about it because I had no one to talk about it with in high school. And then in college, (pause) it was kind of the same way. I really had nobody to talk to about it and (pause) yeah, it just...I don't know.

(silence from 00:42:32 to 00:42:51)

In some ways what I wanted in college was anonymity but (pause) I also think I really wanted to... (sigh) part of it being a really big school, although not a huge school, part of the size was I wanted there to be...I was like, "Well, if it's this big then there's got to be a lot of people who I could relate to or..." I don't know. I just kind of hoped there were a lot of people. (pause) I don't know, I just...part of it is also looking at one of my roommates, Katiya her name is Katiya (sp), she's Korean American and she became heavily involved in Asian American activism in college, I think after our sophomore year so I knew she was doing that because we would talk about it and somehow I never really connected it to (pause) the concept of...I never thought like, "Oh, I could go do that." She talked about how she thought it was awesome and all these things and I (pause) didn't think like, "Oh, you really like that. Maybe I could go to the Black Student group and get that same thing that you are enjoying." [00:44:38]

THERAPIST: Is there a way...yeah, it's like you...it does [remind me of] (ph) a bunch of things that almost lead you to imagine you were not likely to find support or similar experiences.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which considering you pretty much hadn't before (pause) makes sense. I mean, considering you anticipated that (pause) finding it cramped would be very hurtful again, I would think. It makes sense.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean one other thing that happened this was freshman year I was shy. I felt alone like so many freshman and I remember talking to Zoe about it on the phone and she (pause) was saying how [inaudible] (ph) is like sci-fi group. She's like, "It seems like if you join that group at [inaudible] (ph) you have instant 50 friends. So why don't you go do that at school?" I was like, "Oh, that's a good idea!" And that group was really white and also very invested in the idea a lot of sci-fi fans have that (pause) they are smarter and better than other people and therefore are too smart also and evolved for racism or sexism or anything to touch them. So (pause) that was a thing. I think there may be, maybe, six other people of color in the group, maybe. (chuckle) I can really only think of four, maybe five. [00:46:53]

THERAPIST: Alright, that didn't help.

CLIENT: Yeah, throwing my eggs into that social basket really didn't help.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now. We're on for Sunday and Wednesday next week? I got your text, I think, also.

CLIENT: About the 11th?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:47:17]

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