TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Oh, man. That smells good.

THERAPIST: What does it smell like?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: What does it smell like?

CLIENT: Smells a little [inaudible at 00:00:11], a little too Asiatic (ph). Oh man. So something kind of good happened at some point yesterday, where I don't know when it happened, but I just kind of stopped, said wait a minute, what? I think we got to be more hyper-vigilant in here when I'm getting the way I'm getting because I'm just being too sensitive. That's a big part of it I think. I said what am I, what's the problem here? Kelly's, I see this girl once or twice a week and she's great. So all I'm I'm just being hypersensitive to everything. I'm just kind of over-thinking or reading into my own things.

I mean there's a lot of stuff that's real, of course, that we're talking about, but I just mean that in terms of just the day today, well what's I don't know. It felt good to take a step back and say what's going on here? I'm hanging out with a really pretty girl who's really cool and she's not all up in my business, she's not bothering me, she's not yes there's some stuff I've got to sort out but no one's pressuring me or no one's holding a gun to my head or no one's I don't know for some reason that made me feel a lot better. I know it's a little thing but it kind of isn't in a way.

THERAPIST: Yes. When you say I'm just being too sensitive [00:02:01]

CLIENT: I'm over-thinking their motives, my motives, how do they feel, how do I -

THERAPIST: So how with her you mean?

CLIENT: Who? Kelly?

THERAPIST: With Kelly?

CLIENT: Well just, I'm just kind of I'm over-thinking something that doesn't need any she's not doing anything that's making me say oh this chick wants to see me all the time or I can't get away or she's being weird or I don't know. I clearly have some issues I'm working on. But I guess what I'm saying is I'm being sensitive about how much that's going to impact that, do you know what I mean kind of, because I don't know if that makes sense. It's also good because it reminded me that this shouldn't get more serious than it is right now. That's another big I think I shouldn't let it escalate. This should stay like this until it's very, very sure, you know what I mean, because if it escalates then we're talking about a kid and her brother and I mean that's a little more it's still not the end of the world but I would just prefer not to I don't know.

THERAPIST: You know, in a way it sounds like you suddenly, I guess this is going to be a kind of strange and [inaudible at 00:03:28] way to put it but it felt like but she's not my mother. She's not pressuring me for more.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. And she's not my wife, she's not my, yes, yes -

THERAPIST: It isn't (ph) the same thing to be possible for her to be that. It's not you don't owe something.

CLIENT: Yes, it was almost like a moment like wait I'm still in charge of my -

THERAPIST: Of yourself.

CLIENT: of myself and my decisions and what I want and what I don't there's no so if she's going to come over this whole thing about yes, I kind of don't feel like seeing her. It's no, I kind of don't feel like something that's not happened yet, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Which is? [00:04:04]

CLIENT: Well it's that idea of smothering, whereas I'm forgetting that no, really pretty girl is going to come over and we're going to have fun. That's very different than some future feeling of smothering that I'm projecting, you know what I'm saying? So I think that's, I think, I realize that that's a very feminine side I have. It's good for a lot of things, for art and things like that but in this kind of stuff it's never served me well. Friendships, where I just, every little thing I could get sensitive about and over-think. I mean I'm not trying to say women are like that but it's definitely more of a feminine you know.

Guys would say what the fuck? Guys would say you're making out with one chick, you've got this hot chick coming to see you. Guys would, a lot of guys would not even in a bad way, they would just kind of go with it. There wouldn't be such sensitivity about every little thing. Part of that is what makes me me and that's, I'm happy about that but sometimes I do need to just kind of say wait a second, I'm getting too, too fucking tizzy here. I have times, yes that's something I do need to be very vigilant about, just reminding myself that am I being too sensitive in this moment, like too yes, it's important.

The other thing I'm kind of proud of is I have been focusing a little more on the physical. I feel like my hair is thinning out and I feel kind of fat and shit. And I don't know, I'm kind of going with it. I'm not letting it get to me. It's bumming me out a little bit but. Yes, so that's good. It's not derailing me. [00:06:10]

THERAPIST: I mean that's something else you've been really, really, really sensitive to. Almost so sensitive that it could be something that isn't really there, that you can see in a microscope in a way.

CLIENT: The problem with that too is it's a fucking bastard because over time of course those are things I am going to see. I am seeing, I mean that's the thing. I literally think yes, my hair's thinned out a little more than usual, I don't know, and I can't pretend that it's not but I'm getting better at just, just being better about it as [inaudible at 00:06:55].

THERAPIST: I think what's so cool with what you're identifying is that there's, you're getting underneath the statement I think I just need some space to say that you're, one of the things that's driving that is feeling smothered. You've recognized you're not actually being smothered. In fact quite to the contrary. You're both are spending relatively little time with each other and she's not banging down saying let's spend a lot more. It's an anticipation of that that makes you freeze up inside and want to get away and get by yourself for a little while. The flip side is I think you can also feel hurt if she's not wanting a little bit more at one point, sort of [00:08:13]

CLIENT: Sure. Well I guess, but I guess the thing is I'm realizing I'm not sure I want in the way it works out for now. It is odd, I mean that is a red flag a little bit to be well I've trouble being like yesterday, it's important. Yesterday I sent a text to her. She said how are you feeling, are you feeling better or whatever. And I kind of, in the text I kind of just spelled it out a little bit. I said yes, I said something like, you know, sometimes I sit down and kind of either say out loud or I write down all the things I'm doing right now. And I said it's kind of insane, it's just and I said work and day job, you know, whatever. And she wrote I understand. And it didn't because it's her, she's not a Samantha, she's not a Michelle, it didn't bother me but that's, that's her. She'll just say yes, yes, and she's being genuine. But there's no, aw, you'll be okay or I don't know, what can I do to help. She's very just kind of tempered that way. So that's I don't know if it's a red flag but it is something, I do feel like it's -

THERAPIST: Yes, it sounds like you cannot take that as her it's not a rejection, but it's also kind of just how she is and -

CLIENT: Yes, yes, oh yes, I mean it went on to just like we always are. We were texting about things and flirting and all this stuff.

THERAPIST: You totally know that, and yet it's also a limited response to that and does that work for you or not.

CLIENT: Right. Especially, well, I wouldn't have cared as much but when she kind of came out and said remember I was saying the fact that she even told me that was kind of being emotive. But the fact that she would feel that she has to say yes, I don't know if this I think in the future this might be an issue. I just don't that's wow, it's really, she's really kind of , you know, she's just saying look this is how I am and I'm not going to change. I don't know. [00:10:30]

But see again when I start thinking about that, I think the key is to just remember okay, but that's all there but in the meantime, there's not, those are two different things. Hanging out with her on the weekend or whatever is very different than the long run of what happens and I think that's an important distinction.

THERAPIST: Unless you reach a point where you know you wouldn't want to be with her in the long run and then in which case you might not want to do that [inaudible at 00:11:07] weekend. You might, but you might not.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yes. Yes. (Pause) I don't know. I think all this stuff is still about, I think it means I'm still not completely comfortable with myself or my sense of self. It's a bazillion times better but I think if it was really even more, which it will be, but for now I think that still makes me kind of think, latch on too much to other people and me, you know what I mean, my relations, interpersonal shit, instead of being like I just don't care, I don't [00:13:30]

THERAPIST: I guess as you're talking it feels like there's something else that's going to be possible in the middle of latching onto other people's what they think and feel and every second being important and I just don't care.

CLIENT: Well, when I say I don't care it just means to be like this is what I want and then, so I don't mean I don't care. I just mean that once I know what I want, then it's not that I don't care this is what I want so I don't want to do this or that or whatever or I want this instead of that. So and I'm kind of there, I'm tasting that a little bit, but I'm not quite there. I'm still kind of -

THERAPIST: Well that's the feel it's had in the last maybe month and a half with Kelly that something started to happen where I can't tell what you want any more. How much of what is it she wants something that you don't like or you want something that she doesn't like? Sort of losing sight of your desire, sort of your boundary around what you want that could happen when let's say you want something that she doesn't. You can get hurt, you can say I don't want it, she's smothering me, all this kind of layers of defenses can build on top of that. Or say she wants something that you don't want. It could feel smothering then, you want to get away from her. It's just unclear whose feelings are whose a little bit right now. I think that's what you're when you say I don't care, you're saying trying to get back to what, what do I want from this, what's working for me, what's not? The hard part about knowing what you want is that sometimes you get disappointed. [00:15:47]

CLIENT: Right, sure, sure. Or what you want can change, too. So that's scary too. But it's like anything else, right? Like everyone says it's better to know what you don't want. What you want can be fluid; it can change. But you pretty much know what you don't want. It's pretty clear. If you don't like carrots, you don't like carrots. But so I think it's more about that, actually. It's more about do I want, what does that mean? Would she, is she ever going to want to have another kid? She's got a very settled life. Or as good as I am with kids do I want just an instant family, like a 12-year-old kid? That means something very specific; that's her priority. She can't I don't know.

But yes, then like you said of course that if she wasn't in the picture then of course then you don't know. It could be someone who doesn't have a kid, who's younger, there's something else. There's some other of course, there's no but again, but I think that's what I'm saying. Once when you feel more grounded in yourself you can handle that. You can be like no I don't want this and this is sad because I don't know what the future holds and I'm giving up this thing but that's okay, you know what I which I've never been able to do. [00:17:43]

THERAPIST: I think there are still over (ph) layers. It's still fresh to understand about what it feels to get really close to someone. But there may also be at the same time new parts of you getting to know yourself and getting to know what you want and what you don't want, too. So there may be really healthy reasons that you're saying this may not be for me that aren't to do with being just being claustrophobic. (Pause.) You want to have kids [inaudible at 00:18:59]?

CLIENT: I mean I want to have the option. And I'm really good with kids. If you see me with Cecelia it's ridiculous. I'm very loving and very just so I want to be able to with the person I'm with. If we don't it should be because we've both, so you know what I mean? It shouldn't be because I ended up with someone that refuses or can't or feels like she's beyond whatever, you know. I don't like that.

THERAPIST: Have you ever talked about them with her, casually?

CLIENT: No, I'm mean no. I mean I get the sense that she can't even talk, you know what I mean? I get the sense of because how do you talk, I mean, talk about something like that casually? She's going to get the sub-text of what's going on.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Well yes. But I guess just because of the other stuff I feel like oh fuck it. Like that's why even talk about it if she can't even say the L word? I mean -

THERAPIST: Yes, you can say do you foresee yourself having more kids? That's not specific to you.

CLIENT: Yes, I guess I could, yes. Or getting married again or whatever, yes, yes.

THERAPIST: And if she said definitely not, I'm not getting, you know, then you might, you might want to know that. [00:20:51]

CLIENT: No I agree, though. If she was smart she would say well I'm not sure, maybe. I mean she does say that she loves she's such a good mom that I think there is something about her that likes that so. But still, that would have to happen kind of -

THERAPIST: Very quickly.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? I mean yes, people have kids into their 40s but -

THERAPIST: It does get harder. A little more risks.

CLIENT: But again I'm, more and more I'm realizing that's all secondary to if someone really loves themselves themself, themselves then this other stuff doesn't become such a dwelling, like you don't dwell on it quite as much because when you're truly okay with yourself either way you're going to be, you're going to be able to move on if you have to, you're going to be, you know. But I'm realizing now that wow if you're constantly looking for love and validation and this and that, then you're always kind of making wrong choices by default. You're making choices against your better interests. [00:22:52]

I mean look at my cousin Bobby. I don't like his wife, whatever, family. But the one thing I will say is one day he decided I want to be with an Assyrian, and that's what he's done. She's a fucking train wreck, but you know what I mean, that's someone who is not over-thinking and is just like who's comfortable enough with there's no, he's not overly self-aware or, what's the word again, self-conscious or whatever of every little thing. He decided he wanted to be with an Assyrian girl that's it. Seven or eight years now. It's insane but he followed through on something. That's the sign of someone who's much more sure of themselves.

Whereas for me I've never been able to do that. It's always been like who's the most beautiful girl here and how can I get validation and love from her so that I can feel better that's really all it is. So what are those relationships? They're not they were real from the other perspective. I mean from the girl, they were with dating this guy or whatever. But it's not, it wasn't an equal footing in that way because they were pretty sure, I mean they had issues too but they were more self-assured in some ways than I was. So [00:24:46]

THERAPIST: You can't unleash (ph) the places thinking about what you actually want for yourself in your life if you're still in the place of feeling the deficits in yourself -

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: if you're totally different.

CLIENT: Yes, yes, yes, because I'm almost suspect of choices I make, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: And it's almost driven then by who can you get to love you.

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: As opposed to who do you love? Do you love that person?

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. But then also it's superficial because it always has to be the prettiest girl that loves me, not just someone I you know what I mean? So yes, that's the problem. I feel like I have to be suspicious of my own motives and choices kind of. I don't fucking know. Like with Kelly there's no denying it. I feel the initial euphoria. I mean it's still pretty cool is that she came back to me. She sought me out after 2-1/2 years. What? That's insane. So on some level that's not even superficial. That's the real part. Wow she thought enough that that means I was right. We did have a nice connection. But it is also, like from her perspective that's awesome and from my perspective it's awesome too. But there's a part of me that's still not part of this. It's like yes but it's also awesome because she's fulfilling that need. This hot chick sought me out and is validating, you know what I mean? [00:26:30]

Or even when we're out, when I introduce her it feels good to have people say man, she's really pretty, you know? Those things matter to me; they make me feel good. Now at some level, no shit, that would make anyone what guy doesn't want that? That's not really about hating yourself or whatever. But in my case I feel like I have to be suspect; I have to fucking be critical about it, a little bit. Of course it's a great feeling. You want to be with someone attractive who other people all say is attractive, you know what I mean? Who doesn't want that? Woman want that too, right? Oh, man, he's a handsome guy or whatever the fuck but because of my story, you know what I mean, I feel like it's more -

THERAPIST: Yes, but that's become very important. You don't feel exactly [inaudible at 00:27:29] -

CLIENT: Yes, yes, so I feel like it's my form of revenge. All the shit feelings I've had and my family and this and that, and that's I just have to be wary of that, leery and wary of that.

THERAPIST: In other words it's a choice of a person that is still based on old ties to family members.

CLIENT: Yes. I mean yes and no, that's the thing. I mean I also know what I like. I mean I'm attracted to whatever [inaudible at 00:27:59], I can't change that. But yes, I'm saying I'm a little bit on the one hand it is a really great feeling. I mean I think of it the way my dad used to feel. Some of it's positive. That's why my dad liked to go out with my mom and he liked to watch her put on her lipstick. It's romantic, it's like yes this is the girl on my arm. I mean it's fucking awesome. But then yes, there's this other side where I feel like I also have to be careful that I, because I do have a track record Meredith, Michelle, some of these real stunning, fucking beautiful girls so and part of that was just because they were beautiful, suppose that. So, I don't feel that with Kelly [00:28:46]

THERAPIST: Stunning but also somewhat crazy, each one of them.

CLIENT: Ah yes, they had lots of issues, yes.

THERAPIST: I mean that's the point is if beauty is such the overriding motivation because it proves something from the past, shows up your mother, makes yourself someone you never thought you could be in her eyes in some way then it's not actually picking the whole person you love.

CLIENT: And that's the one good thing about Kelly is I do it is a whole person.

THERAPIST: It seems different somehow.

CLIENT: She's not super thin, she's not I just really like her.

THERAPIST: I think her as a choice it's always, at least to me it's been something new and different [inaudible at 00:29:32].

CLIENT: It's different, yes. And even when we got back together initially it was like oh this is awesome, I'm going to vanquish this girl that has come back to me. But then when we hung out it was so natural, we just had a great fucking time. I just like her as a person. So, yes, it's definitely different. I think that's why I'm saying the sensitive I have to watch the sensitivity. Just go with it for now and don't go over, don't be so sensitive about the long run is the long run. You'll figure it out as you go along. I mean just and no one's holding a gun to your head. I mean, yes, if I met some amazing Assyrian chick that has all the I'd have to seriously think about that, but, yes. Yes, there's a lot to be said to really just there's a lot to be said of course I mean to like someone just to like them. [00:30:31]

I mean I'll tell you, that's one thing I really remember Lily that girl I was seeing? I really miss her; I miss her friendship. She was hot and all that stuff. Maybe didn't dress quite my way or whatever but I really do miss just hanging out with her. So I mean there's been a good trend of, you know what I mean, so and same with Bethany. She's a nut job but I like her as a person. I don't think that there's she's a little nuttier than but even her, she's different. She knows she's nutty; she talks about it. She, you know what I mean, she apologizes. She says I apologize. I think I'm being very ADHD today or she's very sweet.

THERAPIST: There's more self-awareness.

CLIENT: Very, very, very. And very sweet and thoughtful and so that means I'm definitely doing a better job of attraction and just liking who a person is.

THERAPIST: Also you're describing being with people who are more self-aware in general than in the beginning, when you're, people, Samantha would be acting one way and have no understanding of your condition or something. [00:32:05]

CLIENT: Oh yes, yes. Those people, Michelle, her, Meredith, those three were very there was something schizo about their behavior and then what they'd say and then what day to day it was very -

THERAPIST: Without any ownership of it. It's one thing, everyone has some craziness -

CLIENT: Yes, they'd get defensive and -

THERAPIST: but even then the [inaudible at 00:32:23] masses say I don't believe I was like this yesterday. I'm so sorry I was in a mood or -

CLIENT: Right, right. I mean when I think back to that day with Meredith where I woke up and I didn't have my shoes, remember that? She took my phone and my shoes, this was the only pair not this pair but a pair like this it wasn't this pair was it, no it wasn't, okay, that's impossible, no it wasn't but she took my shoe and that didn't make sense. The more I thought about that it doesn't that's a sign of truly passionately loving someone where you kind of fucking, you know? But day to day there was none of that you know what I mean? Well but dude what you don't want to have sex, you don't, we don't really even make out much. We hold hands and we're kind of touchy-feely but you know what I mean?

So that and I felt so shitty about that and it, and it wasn't, okay yes, it wasn't great that I was texting somebody. Hadn't done anything, hadn't met that chick that I was texting, I was so even back then I couldn't take ownership kind of, of me. I just fucking buckled. It was all about her. It was all about her and how sorry I was. Yes, sorry but then to what? Then we went back to the same routine of being with this kind of cold person who that doesn't work for me you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: And she took your shoes and your phone in anger? Is that right?

CLIENT: She went and met the girl.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's right.

CLIENT: She texted the girl back on my phone and went to meet her.

THERAPIST: It's crazy behavior.

CLIENT: Yes, sorry, that's nuts. I would understand it actually a little bit more if we had a very passionate relationship, were it lots of sex, just more warm-blooded you know what I mean? Well it's consistent. But I was like what the f**k? In the mornings you don't really want to, sometimes you don't want to talk that much because you're I said it doesn't make sense then to do that. That's so. But yes, but what I'm saying is but instead of her being self-aware that that's nuts, I had to be the one that [00:34:46]

THERAPIST: Well also the time wasn't so great.

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying. So it was all about me feeling shittier and shittier and shittier and apologizing.

THERAPIST: Like your relationship with your mother, sort of folding yourself into what she wanted and needed and then saying it's reality, not yet having what I think you probably have now is a more capacity to have your own mind and say actually the way you're acting is really disproportionate to what I did. It's not that I'm perfect; I apologized for that when I talked to you about it. It probably means there's something going on in our relationship if I [am doing that] (ph) -

CLIENT: No, the bets with all three of those chicks I would've broken up with them in a much more direct and maybe we could've even still been friends or something you know what I mean? But instead things just got acted out subconsciously without me knowing what, you know what I mean? Or we wouldn't have been friends whatever, but I would have been yes, this doesn't work. You're not going to make me feel bad, you're not going to, I'm being really awesome to you. So I'm not perfect but, you know. So I think that's why now I don't, I'm being yes, you know, maybe I shouldn't be flirting with Bethany or whatever but I'm not doing that again, you know what I mean, until I'm absolutely sure about something I'm not going to feel like I'm kind of not cow-towing but you know what I mean? [00:36:14]

You know, Kelly's going through her day. She's not sitting around doing this. She's doing, and, and I'll tell you she'll probably pretty fine if I broke up I mean she'd be heartbroken but I know she's a strong girl. She'd say that really fucking sucks and she'd be hurt and whatever but she has a sense of self at her core. So I'm a little tired of, yes. I mean it sounds awful but I do feel like I get some special rules or, you know what I mean? I'm in a very weird situation that's hard to explain to people, do you know what I mean? So if that means I've got to flirt with someone or if that means I might explore something with someone even if there's no sex whatever, then you know what, that's what's got to happen. And I have to be okay with that instead of over-thinking because it's different for me. I'm all this shit, the shit that should've happened 20 or 15 years ago whatever, is happening now and I can't, you know. Does that make sense?

THERAPIST: Yes. Having a thought, I don't know if this is a reasonable thought, there's a way as you just described what you might say now to Meredith which is you know what? This is fucking unacceptable, this can't happen, you're crazy, I'm out of here. What feels missing yet in relationships is the space to know that you're worth seeing if you could get more of what you want from the person.

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: In other words -

CLIENT: Instead one or the other. [00:38:20]

THERAPIST: either I'm out of here because of your behavior or I kowtow, placate to your behavior and needs. Not the space to say, I was saying this the other day when you were describing a while ago when you were away with Kelly and your mother called and how you used the word bitch-slapped her a lot. And it was very violently harsh and sort of slamming the door on you can't do this to me, which I think your mother is so much like, it's like ground-hog day and you have had to be that harsh for her to get it. But, so because of that experience I don't know that you have inside you that you what would happen if you said I don't like the way you're acting, it's really a problem for me, but in the relationship?

CLIENT: But I guess -

THERAPIST: Not to her, not to her. In other words to Kelly or to Meredith or -

CLIENT: The thing is I did do that. I might have said all three of those chicks, Samantha, I talked to them. That's the thing I was really, I mean I was buying Meredith books on eating disorders. I was all three of them I'd say yes you can talk to me about anything. I was. I was way more than most dudes -

THERAPIST: Helping them.

CLIENT: Well, but also [inaudible at 00:39:36] but saying that this is I mean I tried to break up with Samantha three times. But I think, yes I kind of know what you're saying, but I think the difference is that I didn't, I wasn't you're right, I didn't use those words, like this isn't working for me. I was more trying to help them. But that's different than coming from a place of power and confidence and being like look. Yes. [00:40:06]

THERAPIST: Yes, helping them is more, it's still a little bit like folding into the help they need instead of your equal, mature adult partner saying I really think I might need somebody who can say be more forthcoming with their feelings and -

CLIENT: Yes, and that's one thing I was saying with Kelly. I feel like I can't talk, I mean that's such a different place. Not about what I want but -

THERAPIST: It's so different.

CLIENT: but I could just put things on the table. Look, this is what's going on with me, so.

THERAPIST: Your conversations with her sound so, so different than they've ever been.

CLIENT: They are, big time.

THERAPIST: And yet, I think that's what it feels to me like there's even more room for you to know what you could have, what you're worth. Like when I say you could ask her if she wants to have kids.

CLIENT: Yes, yes, not it's true and she's, yes, she's very mature about that stuff. (Pause.) You know what's crazy? I think the big part of this that I feel so good about is I think this all goes back to on a gut level what I've been trying to do since my dad died kind of which is I'm getting much, much, much better, not all the time whatever, it's up and down. But at being able to be like you know what, in this moment I'm pretty great. Everything's fine and that's really helpful. That's really helpful. That's a very grounding thing and it reminds, it also reminds me what's really important. [00:42:59]

The fact is my work is what's important so I'm always like how, that's what's important. All this other stuff is important but. So that's, that's been a good feeling. [00:43:16]

THERAPIST: So Tuesday?

CLIENT: Same time? Nice. Thanks. Have a good one.

THERAPIST: You too. [00:44:04]

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