TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What's going on? (laughs) I had a weird dream last night, a very strange dream. I was with people on my dad's side and my mom's side, but the people on my dad's side I didn't recognize. I mean, I saw faces kind of, but in the dream I acted like I totally knew them, kind of. We were in some weird resort or something. At one point I was going back and forth. Wow, that's weird, I just remembered a different dream that I had. That's weird. [00:01:03] I was going back and forth to the mainland or something to get drinks and shit and bring them clothing for me or I don't know what the fuck and then one of my cousins or whatever was like, "Why are you doing that? You don't get to do that. They have everything on the island," or something. It was weird. Yeah. And then I had this weird dream where I mean I had a weird part of the dream where I saw a bird's-eye view of whatever island that was but I was like a giant kind of, so I was kind of like [ ] (inaudible at 00:01:33). It was really fucking weird. And then one of the people on my dad's side had rented a car and it was this crazy-looking, futuristic you know my dad used to like big American cars. He loved six-cylinder cars and shit like that, so it was kind of like a retro-looking, baby blue; but futuristic at the same time. It was weird. It was beautiful whatever it was. [00:02:10]

Then on my mom's side my cousin, Bobby, was there and we didn't have a lot of exchange, but his mom . . . somehow we were talking about money or something like that and I was like, "I don't know what I'm going to do. I just don't know. I'm trying to make more money and I don't know. Maybe this grant-writing thing . . . I just can't figure out the best way to go about making some more money." She went through this whole thing about, "Well, it's good that you're finally seeing that your work is really not important," like it's not, you know. She rattled off these big names (chuckles) and I kept saying . . .

THERAPIST: This is all in the dream? [00:02:51]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was like, "Well, yeah." In the dream I wasn't trying to be like a Michael Jackson. I was like, "I'm realistic." I kept trying to let her know that no, it's not just a hobby. I'm still going to be doing that seriously and, yeah, she wasn't getting it. It was interesting. It was a weird fucking dream.

THERAPIST: Those were last night?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was the same dream, kind of, like intermingled.

THERAPIST: Morphed into one? Yeah.

CLIENT: Morphed. Yeah. (pause) My dad's side thing made sense because I've been thinking a lot about that and then maybe going out there or whatever. I mean it all makes sense, I guess, that all this stuff my aunt is telling me is stuff I've heard forever. And she's a failed singer, so that kind of . . . [00:04:07]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (pause) I'm sorry. What were you going to say?

THERAPIST: I was just seeing the two sides of yourself, too the idea of finding the part of you that's like your father and, in some ways, it feels comforting having that inside you; and yet going back to the mainland of your mother and someone telling you that you don't have to go back there anymore. You have everything you need here.

CLIENT: Oh, no. I didn't think about that. Yeah, because the island was awesome, whatever it was. It was beautiful or at least that bird's-eye view of it was beautiful. I seemed happy. When I woke up I didn't recognize who those people were, but in my dream I just assumed they were my aunts or uncles or I don't know what I thought. [00:05:02] But the weird thing was even with my aunt's thing it wasn't awful. It was much more . . . like in the past I would have been losing my temper, but I was just very calmly telling her over and over and just explaining, you know? And, maybe more importantly, she wasn't being mean. She was kind of being loving about it. She wasn't being like, "See. We told you." She was like, "Well, you know. See, the music is not as important. You need to do what you need to do to make money and . . ." Although she did say something like, "So you didn't make it," or something like that. She would say something like that. I don't know. But yeah, somehow I didn't take it to be as mean or vicious as I don't know . . . at least in the dream I didn't. [00:06:11]

THERAPIST: It seems like it didn't feel like it was only intended to be mean.

CLIENT: Exactly. It was somehow almost as if she's saying, "You've got to look out for yourself and you can't live in a fantasy," or something like that. Which is still not great, but it's better than . .

THERAPIST: It's different if you're feeling in the dream like there's some intention to help you instead of only to knock you down and destroy you, which it doesn't sound like it felt like that.

CLIENT: No. I didn't get that sense. Maybe that's why it was almost as if she was saying, "I know what it's like. I didn't make it. You didn't make it." Yeah. (pause) [00:07:19]

THERAPIST: What about being a giant looking down?

CLIENT: It was like this split-second moment, but I don't know. I didn't know what to make of it. It was like whoa, what's going on here? It was weird. But I tried to kind of tiptoe. I was trying not to step on things. It was weird.

THERAPIST: You were trying not to step on people, too?

CLIENT: I didn't see any people. It was more like this pretty, bright kind of light blue water, a lot of sand and shit, trees. [00:08:00]

THERAPIST: So it was beautiful?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. It was a beautiful shot, but I didn't see any people or cars. It was more just geography. [00:08:12] (pause)

THERAPIST: It also makes me think a little bit about what we were talking about yesterday about relationships. Are you going back and forth having different people on the outside while you're doing this process. It is also that going back and forth between the mainland and an island. Should you be locating yourself in one place for a while or not?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Like today, part of me really wants to not see Kelly. Part of me wants to either just stay in or I was maybe going to go to a show to support some people I know without it being a date, you know? [00:09:17] Just go and have a couple of drinks and then just leave. But then I was like, "Yeah, but maybe that's exactly the opposite of what maybe I should go against that instinct of mine and be like no, I'm just going to hang out with this girl and be nice." It's too easy to want to just cancel. I'll say I'm very confused now, not just about Kelly, but what I want in a relationship. I'm totally at a loss, totally confused. On the one hand that feels really great. In a way it's like a good kind of wow, I could think of anything that I want and then just go after it. But it's also, in the meantime, I'm not sure what to do. [00:10:22] (pause)

THERAPIST: Again, some of your dream is going back and forth. picking things from here and bringing them there, not settling in one place. Someone tells you to and there's a split second where you see it and it's beautiful, but it's from way up high. Like what happens when you get closer?

CLIENT: Right. What do people normally do when they're in the psychoanalysis? Obviously people in marriages go to psychoanalysis, but it seems difficult. (pause) [00:11:26] I think I will, if I see her tonight, I think I am definitely going to be like, "Look, this is kind of what's going on." I'm not even sure . . . I think I'm just going to say it without even an endpoint because I don't know what the endpoint is. I'm just going through crazy, crazy changes and it's heavy. Just to let her know that it's making me feel sometimes reclusive or, if nothing else, just tired sometimes. (pause) [00:12:38]

This may sound arrogant. It's not an issue, but because of my fucking background it's become an issue. It's almost too easy. It's very easy for me to kind of meet somebody. It always seems to happen. I just meet somebody and they're kind of into me or something or I'm kind of into them. It's not that I wish it wasn't the case . . . Because of where I am, instead of just enjoying those things you know what I mean? Because for so long I've just been blown about by the wind so when I meet those people I can't just be like, "Okay, no. This is a person I just want to have sex with," right off the bat. [00:13:32] Or this is a person I kind of want to be friends with and we can flirt or whatever. It's just willy-nilly, fucking it's a bummer because it's some squandered opportunities or even things where I was like, "No. This person thought maybe it will be a one-night stand, but I'm not doing that." So that's why I feel like right now it feels good now to know that nope, when opportunities arise I'm handling them very differently. [00:14:16]

THERAPIST: Do you know what the worry then is? There's something making you anxious about being in this place. What's the fear?

CLIENT: Well right now the issue is Kelly. I'm in a relationship. That's the issue.

THERAPIST: So what's bothering you about how you're feeling there?

CLIENT: I feel kind of guilty. I feel guilty for feeling kind of liberated. I feel like I'm not being fair to her maybe because I'm like, "Well, if something else comes up then I'll . . . " I'm also scared that if I break it off I'm going to regret it. It's just all these things.

THERAPIST: There's some feeling then you feel bad that in a way could feel like kind of keeping her around until you figure out what you want. [00:15:16]

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But then not trusting myself. This isn't just right now, but if things end with her and then I come back full circle and am like, "No. She was amazing." It's like fear, anxiety, confusion, guilt; but also feeling good. I can't control that right now I feel pretty . . .

THERAPIST: Actually there's a way you're very hard on yourself for what you're describing is happening with her. I actually think it's foreign territory for you. It's never happened for you that you would be in a relationship that your experience of it would be like, "I don't know where this is going to go. I don't know if this is the person." It's been kind of like 0 to 100 and then full out, madly in love or the peak experience of pursuit and wanting and then cut off. So then to be kind of in but not certain whether you want to get married to this person or whether someone else might be a better fit you end up feeling guilty about that instead of that being a part of having a normal way . . . [00:16:46]

CLIENT: But that [ ] (inaudible at 00:16:49) Shouldn't you feel guilty? I don't know. Because wouldn't I feel bad if she was doing that right now?

THERAPIST: Probably.

CLIENT: Right, this is what I'm saying about being too sensitive. That's why yesterday I was saying I've got to stop myself and just be like, "Wait a minute. This is what happens in relationships and we're not fucking dating. We're not . . ." you know? But I can't help it. You're saying it's all good?

THERAPIST: I'm not saying it's all good.

CLIENT: You're saying this is all very normal and I'm just beating myself up because that's what I'm used to?

THERAPIST: I'm just saying it's new for you to be in the relationship and uncertain about it, rather than madly, head-over-heels it's as though it's all good or it's all bad. To be in a place of kind of taking the wholeness of her and the wholeness of you and where you are in your life and there's uncertainty. That's really new, rather than certainly wanting somebody out or certainly wanting somebody in. It doesn't mean okay, it's fine if you hook up with Bethany. That's something and that's something that you should have feelings about and that's something you might apologize for if she knew. That's something that you'd have feelings about. That's true, but it's just the general feeling of giving yourself some space to think and feel what being with this person is actually like for you is so new. [00:18:26]

CLIENT: That's true, yeah. It's almost like I'm going back to "catastrophizing" things a little bit, like taking them to extremes. That's why I was quick to say that I also feel good. I don't feel bad that I made out with Bethany, but I feel bad for not feeling bad because I'm hard on myself like you said. I feel bad for kind of not feeling bad and that's just me. I tend to be hard about stuff like that. That's a good point, though. This is definitely the first. This is totally unusual.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm saying I think it's more specific than oh, here you go catastrophizing again. The specific of it is that to be in a relationship where it's uncertain. [00:19:21]

CLIENT: Where it's okay but it's not 0 to 60 or that it's awful.

THERAPIST: Right. Or that one time you don't like this or you don't like this. You're trying to figure out what works, what doesn't.

CLIENT: You were making your point. That's why I was like, "No, I should see her tonight," because what is the big deal, really? She's not moving in with me. I'm going to see her tonight and she's going to go home. That felt good to catch myself and go against my own . . . that's so hard-wired in me to be kind of like, "Nope. I'll just cancel," instead of just being like, "No. I'll just see it through and whatever." Because, yeah, it is being hard like, "What if I'm not in top . . . what if the sex isn't that great because I'm tired and I have a cold?" [00:20:12] It is a lot of beating myself up. "What if I seem tired or what if I bring up this shit and it's kind of weird?" But that's nonsense. That's who I am. That's what's happening right now. I'm not going to apologize for that. (pause) And again, I go back to when she's canceled. It's not even just a thought. She just texts, "I'm really sorry. Can we . . ." It's not like she gives me tons of notice. She cancels a few hours or the day of. Whatever. And it's fine. I've been fine with it. [00:21:03]

In general, I think that's part of the whole sensitive thing. This is my whole fucking thing. Girlfriends have told me this. Friends have told me. It's just something that people definitely see, that I'm really fucking hard on myself. No quarter.

THERAPIST: Even about stuff like, "What if the sex isn't good because I have a cold?" It's like there's no room to just be a person and that you can be in different places and different energies.

CLIENT: Yeah. Who the fuck cares? It's crazy. It's like really putting myself in a vise. (pause) I think that's why this is heavier now, because now I see it. I'll be like, "No, I'll see her tonight." I catch myself. But that's still a lot of processing and a lot of work, do you know what I mean? [00:22:05] It's a lot of thought. I have to be kind of vigilant about . . . That's the other thing I thought. I was like, "Whatever. If she comes over and I'm not quite . . . who the fuck cares?" That's how I feel right now. I don't give a fuck. So it's definitely good, but I have to constantly monitoring and catching those things because otherwise it's too easy, for now, to slide back into, "Well, I'll just cancel it," or "I'll just avoid this or avoid that." I don't want to be that way. Like in the past I've canceled shows. I didn't have to cancel those shows. I was just scared or I was being so hard on myself. I was nervous, scared, and hard on myself. Nonsense. [00:22:54]

THERAPIST: And "who the fuck cares" can get like a defensive retreat at its extreme, like "cancel the show", "just don't see her tonight". It could feel like, "I just don't care. I'm cool with this." But there's fear in it, too. It's different than being with her and saying, "I'll be okay with who I am here."

CLIENT: It is coming from a genuine place, like when I didn't take the job at the school. That was genuine. But yeah, once there's some kind of pattern, like you said, where it's just a reactionary, then you've got to be careful with that.

THERAPIST: In a way, it's like there's a new phase of your process here, I think, ushering in that in some ways is echoing in the relationship with Kelly. There's this initial rush of good, healthy, new stuff happening, but now what? It's sort of like, "Okay, so now what happens?" You've gone through a honeymoon of being in the new, good stuff. Now who are you as a person when you're not in the mood to have sex or when you don't even feel like kissing that much or when you want to tell her about your analysis or something? [00:24:23]

CLIENT: Or you don't feel like seeing someone for a little while. That was the other thing I thought. I was like, "What if I want to date her but I just don't want to see her for a while?" It's weird. I don't want to break up, but I just want to be left alone kind of or something sometimes. So, yeah, it is all these . . . I don't know what to make of it. It's like the overall feeling is good; it's very liberating, all of these things, but in the day-to-day enactments how do I utilize that good feeling going forward in my decisions because it's all so strange, otherwise it's just an abstract good feeling. I feel kind of liberated. I feel very lucid. [00:25:21] Yesterday I went out with Mike and I just feel good now. I just feel good. It's not a front anymore. In the past I would still be acting that way, but it's much more knowing. It's much more from my gut. It's just relaxed. I'm not thinking. I love all that. But also when there are decisions to be made yeah. More unusual things I haven't experienced before like a relationship that's kind of good. Those kinds of things. (long pause) [00:27:43]

It's the hardest thing, right? It's hard. You can't just stop yourself from being highly sensitive. It's one of the hardest things to not be hard on yourself. It takes work, you know?

THERAPIST: I think it's really hard to get into it and understand what it's all about. You so often immediately say, "I'm trying to not do that," or "I'm trying to be different," focusing on the change before it's entirely clear what "it" is and why it's there that you're so hard on yourself. [00:28:37]

CLIENT: I guess I just assume that it's a no-brainer if you're raised the way I was raised. It's a family of people that fucking beat themselves up all day long.

THERAPIST: And beat you up.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right. Exactly. (pause) [00:29:41] It's like being let out of prison. You're let out of prison and the light is kind of blinding you and you're like, "Shit. I can walk that way, that way." You know what I mean? Whoa, this is genius it's not genius and then that feeling of, "Prison is kind of comfortable. I'm used to that." You have a routine. You get your three square meals a day. You know what's what. You're told what to do, what not to do. This just feels like "whoa". In a way I'm my own warden. I'm just fucking cracking down all of the time. [00:30:48]

THERAPIST: It's a great analogy that you get let out and you start out running and it's like, "Which way?"

CLIENT: Yeah. You're so excited.

THERAPIST: But then you start getting tired and you get sick. You've been staying up until four in the morning doing things, but you get tired and you have to slow down and then you realize that you're out and now what do you with this life if it's yours?

CLIENT: What's it all about. Yeah. Wasn't that in Shawshank Redemption? The guy gets out and then he just hangs himself after a while the old dude, the librarian guy. That's uplifting. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: That's not what everyone did when they got out.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. But now it's like I've gone from it's not even euphoric it just feels good. So now it's like I could really structure my days the way I want and I can see who I want, I can cut out people if I want. It's crazy. [00:32:11] (pause)

THERAPIST: And yet, you're also alluding to there being other fears there of can you really do what you want? If you want to be with Kelly tonight and were in a bad space, would it be okay?

CLIENT: That's why the other thing is then the fear that I think a lot of people have is that every choice you make you're giving up some other choice, right? So yeah, it feels good to make the choice initially, but then if you're a kind of sensitive person or you're hard on yourself it's like, "Shit. What if then I regret that?" Then you might be unable to do anything so you never really commit one way or the other because you're constantly worried that that's the wrong way you're going. [00:33:20]

THERAPIST: So another thing that's tremendously new in contrast to being in the prison is the warden telling you what to do. It's just very, very clear. There's no choice. You just do it every day. You are struggling with the freedom of choice, which feels good; but it can also be really sad because as soon as you make a choice you're letting go of other choices. And you are also the one who made that choice. If someone just makes you do it you can be angry at them, but you don't have to feel your own conflict about your own choice.

CLIENT: Right. Yep.

THERAPIST: It's your dream again going back to the mainland and someone is telling you, "No. Stay here." But then you want to go to the mainland. Is it going to be okay if you stay in one place? What will you regret? [00:34:29]

CLIENT: Right. That's interesting, now that I'm thinking about it, trying to take all of this stuff. (chuckling) You don't need to bring anything. (long pause) [00:35:33]

THERAPIST: Although your fears might tell you that you need to bring things with you. For example, if you could take this from Bethany and this from Kelly and this from her and sort of put an amalgam together, could there be some perfect fit as a fantasy? Like if you could bring what you needed from the mainland to this island, which of course is a fantasy. It doesn't work that way. Any one person is going to be disappointing sometimes. (pause) [00:36:29] I think what's hard about that is it includes her, whoever she is, but it also includes you. Like what if someone is disappointed in you? What if you see Kelly and you have a night where she's just "Ugh. What kind of mood is he in?"

CLIENT: Right. That's almost worse, actually. That's way worse for me. Then I take that and . . .

THERAPIST: Of course it is. You don't have an experience in you of that being an ordinary part of a loving relationship, that people get angry and disappoint each other. That is so much of what you had the onslaught of criticism and attack and disappointment that I think one of the things that developed was the fantasy that there was a place where that never happens. And that's not real. [00:37:33] (pause)

CLIENT: In a weird way, when it does happen, I overreact like my family. Just like they get super defensive if someone makes some kind of criticism. They can criticize everything, but they get very defensive. I've caught myself like that, too, when someone genuinely seems a little bit off or just says that they're upset I get very . . . Normally I just feel like I'm five. It just goes back to being like a sad little kid. [00:38:31]

THERAPIST: Of course. How could you not go back to that when for so long that's what you had? That was it. It's not how much we love Brian and everything about him and then sometimes you make an error or a goof or a mistake and you get helped with that or they're disappointed in your behavior one day or something. But that all happens on a bedrock of knowing how much you are loved. It just wasn't there so I think it feels to you like if Kelly would be disappointed in whatever it is, some little thing, it's like poking a hole in the balloon and all of the feelings about you disappear instead of, no, what you have together doesn't get erased if she's mad one day or doesn't win in one day. [00:39:29] (pause) That's what we were saying a little about Meredith yesterday and thinking about either you're a man in love or over, not the space of ordinary relationships where you end the relationship and things happen. You get bothered by each other and you work on it and then it gets better, hopefully, and then it gets worse again.

CLIENT: I've said this may times, I think, but that's one where I do feel regret with that because with Meredith I do feel like that could have been great, I think. I think. I'm not sure, but like you said it was worth going with it. That's what happens instead of just completely . . . because as crazy as what she did was with the phone and all of that, she's 24 and she came all the way from Australia to be with me. I regret that. I just didn't handle that the right way. [00:40:44] Maybe it wasn't going to last anyway, but that was totally a mishandling of that. Unlike Michelle and Samantha, she really was . . . she kind of was everything I . . . no kids, young and beautiful and kind of classy. I had so not sorted out things yet. I just cut and run. (long pause) [00:43:05]

I was thinking about what I said that one time when you were shocked, "Am I breathing too loud?" That's crazy. When I said that I was like, "What the fuck am I saying?" (chuckles) You were like, "What?" (pause)

THERAPIST: That's the level of what you had to be scaring yourself about, down to breathing; how unrelaxed just being literally just being a breathing person was. It's filled with anxiety about getting around, every little last thing when you're surrounded by cranks. (pause) [00:44:37] I keep thinking of the perfect car when you dreamed, too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All of these different images of perfection versus reality. Next time.

CLIENT: Next time. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: You, too. Bye.

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