TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: You look nice.

THERAPIST: Thanks.

CLIENT: Oh man, sorry about yesterday. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: You said it was a crazy night.

CLIENT: Yeah I actually ended up hooking up with Lily. Remember Lily?

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. And it's weird because I kind of don't feel bad about it. But yeah the bad part about it was I didn't really sleep well and then I was up at 5:30 to take her home and then I didn't realize she was moving that morning.

THERAPIST: Oh!

CLIENT: And she was being kind of, not weird, but she was like, "I'm really sorry." She's with a dude. She's moving there for a dude or something. I don't know what the fuck. She's dating some politician or something. I don't fucking know. And then I had some apartment showings that morning and then I just wanted to take a nap and it was just...that was it. I woke up at 2 or whatever it was. [00:01:12]

(pause)

THERAPIST: You said the weird thing is you don't feel bad. What do you feel?

CLIENT: I mean I feel confused, you know? I think that that's funny because that article I was telling you about, that article? It's funny because I shared it with Kelly (sp) today but I miscalculated...I just assumed because she knows how awesome of a mother that I think she is and I ask about her son all the time and I love kids, I didn't think she would focus on that part. I think the title of the article is like "Why I Don't Want Babies" or something like that. "Why I'm Scared of Babies" or something like that.

But what I was saying was there were a couple of interesting sentences, I was like, "For people like you and me who have, you know...I think it speaks to what we talk about." She's the one who tells me she can't talk to...the L word and being...so I was like that's...but I totally didn't...so she wrote back to me and she was like, "Are you sure you wanted to send me this? My son is...I have a child and my son is totally my life so I'm a little confused." So I wrote back and was like, "No! (chuckle) Of course, I love kids. It's not about that it was just things about the L word," and I was like, "Whatever, it's no big deal. I didn't mean to confuse you." [00:02:35]

But that article, I don't know, it's just something about that, just even those couple of sentences. I mean, it really is true. Like how can you truly, truly love someone in the right ways if you have never known how to really love yourself? You know? So then you could kind of cheat on somebody and not feel...I don't know what I feel because I really don't feel that bad. Suddenly I'm really...I don't know if it's a [Don Draper] (ph) kind of thing or if I'm just like kind of a little bit of an asshole or if it's just that I don't have the...I mean...I just feel like eh, if people don't know then whatever. [00:03:20]

(pause)

Or I don't know if I'm figuring out that well maybe I'm a much more European...because I was like well would I like it if Kelly (sp) was doing this? And I was like well I guess if I didn't know (pause) I don't know if I would care, kind of. (chuckle) I don't know, it's weird. I just feel like well maybe those are the things that keep...I don't know. I have no idea. Part of me is like well, I do really care about her and I do like having sex with her but I also really like sex and maybe to keep liking her and for it to not go stale or weird or for me to kind of freak out or whatever, if I can get a little bit here or there, somewhere else, then my relationship with her is...I mean I really care about her. I don't know. It's always very mixed things. [00:04:18]

But that's the big thing. I'm really...I think that's a really legitimate question. If you've never ever, ever had the ability to truly be comfortable with yourself how can you...how do you...do you know what I mean? How do you go that extra mile that it takes to really commit to someone? (pause) Especially when I look at my track record. I'm surprised I've never quite asked myself that before or it's never come up here in those exact words. But I've had plenty of opportunity right? Even with people that yeah, maybe it wouldn't have lasted but it could have lasted longer. [00:05:05]

(pause)

THERAPIST: What are you waiting for?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You look like you're looking to me to judge you or (pause) give some verdict.

CLIENT: No. Well no, I'm assuming you have something to say. (chuckle) But no, no. No that's the funny thing. It's weird, I just don't feel bad. I feel more bad that it was just kind of a messy hook up. I feel more bad that she feels kind of bad. She was drunk and...you know. Whatever, it was fun and it was pretty hot so whatever. (chuckle) I don't know.

THERAPIST: No regrets.

CLIENT: I know, I really don't! It's weird. I don't feel any regrets. (pause) I don't know if it's a telltale sign in a way that it's... (chuckle) that I really am serious now when I say that my only two priorities are my music (chuckle) and my writing and everything else is like whatever. I hope that stuff works out but I'm just living day to day. I don't know. [00:06:27]

THERAPIST: So what's the problem?

CLIENT: Well that's not really a problem. The problem is that I'm just exhausted and I definitely still feel down kind of. (pause) I don't know.

(silence from 00:06:45 to 00:07:17)

I definitely feel...I don't know I just keep having this feeling of just like feeling tired and kind of almost like kind of sick in the pit of my stomach. I don't know. (pause) And to the point where I don't even feel like...I'm like, "Well I'll go have some beers," and I don't...I don't even want to...today I might go to Donnie's house for a little bit but I'm going to be very like, "I don't want to just drink and smoke pot." I'm just not...I don't know. So that's bothering...I mean, it's not bothering me. Like I said last time, I don't want to keep judging myself because I feel that way but it is just a shitty feeling.

THERAPIST: Well it's hard to know what it is.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I don't know. Like am I depressed? Am I...is it just that I feel really confused, but about what specifically I'm not sure?

THERAPIST: One way you're putting it today, the predicament in relationships, is that maybe you're just not capable of loving because you've never loved yourself. (pause) Some mood spaces you can get into it feels like, "That's fine! No skin off anyone's back. Who's getting hurt here really if no one knows?" But it's different than the way you were putting it it's very similar but it's slightly different on Wednesday is what if you can't love someone because you've been hurt and there's always this fear of being hurt again? [00:09:06]

CLIENT: To me though they're the same thing, I feel like.

THERAPIST: They are.

CLIENT: That's what I'm trying to say, if I haven't been able to love myself because of being hurt or ignored or whatever discouraged, put down, you fucking name it then (pause)... yeah.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm just picking up on the one...the way you're talking about it today. The spin on it is so, "C'est la vie!"

CLIENT: No, no I don't mean to say it...I don't mean it that way. I guess in a weird way it does feel like a relief to just acknowledge that that might be the case. I've never done that. I had a very interesting chat with Julia (ph). I was like, "So are you seeing any guys or whatever?" And she was like, "I just broke up with somebody." And she was like, "What about you?" And I was like, "Yeah I'm seeing somebody." I was like, "You know, it's good but I don't know, I feel confused. I don't know what's going on, you know?" And then she's so fucking dramatic with that shit. I was like, "Why did you break up?" And she was like, "Same old thing. I couldn't open up really. I couldn't give what was necessary." And then she was like, "You know, I think from now on I'm...(pause) it's not necessarily a good thing but I'm just not going to fight it anymore. I'm just not capable right now of...it's just not me. I'm not capable. Maybe I'm living in my own fantasy world. I come to my little apartment. I have my little world. But you know what? Maybe that's what it is right now. I don't want to keep feeling bad that I can't 100 percent..." [00:10:47]

And I never...I kind of fought her on it a little bit. I was like, "Well but next week there's going to be some dude who's going to pull you out of that or whatever, whatever." But then I was like well (pause) she's kind of making a valid point. She's not saying that she doesn't want to love anybody or that she's not like "Fuck this!" or whatever. She's just saying, "This is who I am apparently, at least for the foreseeable future." And then that really made me think I broke up with her, I broke up with...I just didn't try to work on anything. And yes, some of that is fear, of course. But it's all the same...people are able to deal with that kind of fear better I mean everyone's scared of that shit but people are able to deal with that a little bit better if they have a better sense of self and loving themselves. [00:11:46]

I'm walking around like every thin girl I see I'm like, "Fuck! If that girl threw herself at me I don't think I'd care. I'd just go for it." (pause) On some level maybe that's a European way of thinking (chuckle). I have guy friends who are like that. They're like, "You know, look, my wife or my...I love them. That's very different than just a physical act of sex." And they're like, "Once in a while I need that release and she can't give me that all of the time," or whatever, whatever. I don't know if that's how I think about it but there is something going on where I'm just starting to feel kind of like, "You know what?" (pause) Or maybe it's a reaction to in the past I've said about being so nice and overly caring about every little detail about how people feel. Maybe now I just feel like, you know what, I'm just going to...I kind of want to do what I want to do a little bit and just take care of myself. If that's a need that I have sometimes, then you know what? That's a need that I have. I don't know what to tell you." (chuckle) I don't know it's a very new feeling but it's genuine. [00:12:59]

THERAPIST: It just...it seems so complicated. It feels like there are some new things that are happening that are good and then there's also all this old stuff that's old and familiar that's happening at the same time. It all sort of gets mixed into one.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I mean I was thinking about it. I was like, "Am I being disrespectful to women or something?" But it's not that old feeling of "Fuck women" or...

THERAPIST: No it doesn't sound like that.

CLIENT: Yeah it's not that because again I took it the other way. I was like, "Well what if Kelly's (sp) doing this and I don't know about it?" I don't know. (pause) As long as she's being safe or whatever, for some reason I kind of don't care that much. I don't want it flaunted in my face. I don't want to find out about it or whatever but...I don't know. Something's going on. I just feel like you know what? I'm tired. Life is so fucking short (chuckle) and I just want to accomplish a couple more things (chuckle) before I'm old or whatever and I'm just like...I don't know. [00:14:10]

THERAPIST: There's something new and good that feels like you relinquishing caring about something so much in a way that feels freeing.

CLIENT: Yeah I think it's that feeling of "Why won't this girl love me?" You know what I mean? "Why won't this girl be all about me?" Because you know what? It's not all about me. Sometimes she wants to get laid or whatever or she sees some other dude that she wants to...I don't want to think about that stuff but I'm also tired of that ego, that childish part in me. It's like "Why can't Samantha love me?" And then the minute she loves me I can't handle it. I'm tired of all that. We're all adults...I don't know. It is very complicated. It's not a very black and white thing at all, at all. [00:15:04]

THERAPIST: Some of the not caring sounds like it feels freeing and different and some of the not caring sounds like it's like a relief to go back to not caring so much as opposed to actually having to grapple with what it means to be in a relationship you're working on. It gets more intimate and harrier and messier and has feelings, a lot of complicated feelings. You're in this relationship with someone right now who herself struggles with the same thing. You were in a relationship with Julia (sp), someone who struggled with the same thing. So that makes for (pause)...it's quite a situation if you're both wanting to be close but terrified of it. You're both going to get hurt by that other person and maybe that just gets too exhausting. So there's some part of you that's just going back to just, "Forget it." Just care less, have sex when you want to have sex, be free. It probably feels like a relief from the exhaustion of trying to figure out where you are and where she is and where you are and where she is. [00:16:16]

CLIENT: Well also but it is a little bit about too that she's got a very set life. She's made her priorities clear. She wants to stay at (inaudible). She wants to do well there in her career. Her son is her life. So even though she says things, like the other night she was like, "It would be cool if we had a studio where you could do your work and I could do my work." And I get all that. I would like that. That's all great but something seems...you know what I mean? I feel like at the end of the day though (pause) she has her life. She's making time for me but (pause) I can't explain it. I can't quite put my finger on it.

THERAPIST: Like she's not starting to move at all, like compromise in changing her life a little bit to include you more? [00:17:06]

CLIENT: I feel like the things she says does sound like that a little bit but I guess because...(pause) I don't know. I can't explain it. Maybe it's just where we are in our lives. Obviously it feels different. I feel like no matter what happens I'm the one who has to kind of accommodate. She has a child. And she's...who knows if she wants to get married again or even have another kid, all that stuff. So no matter what I feel like I have to (pause)...

THERAPIST: Do it more on her terms.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

(pause)

THERAPIST: That can't feel that great.

CLIENT: Yeah! You know...so I don't know. That's why I'm saying maybe at the end of the day it will work out in the sense that we'll just have a talk and be like, "Look, (pause) maybe this is so great let's not fuck with it but let's also be honest about the fact that we are also kind of living separate lives to some extent and (pause) if stuff kind of happens in those separate lives that's not (pause) anything against what we have." (pause) I don't know. [00:18:24]

THERAPIST: This is going to sound like a strange question but why stay together then?

CLIENT: Well because I'm also happy that I haven't done what I've done in the past which is just drift apart from her, stop contacting her, you know what I mean? I used to do shit like that. It's great! I mean I do really, really enjoy spending time with her.

THERAPIST: You do?

CLIENT: Yeah! I really care about her. (pause) I think because of her own caution, I mean in a way she's helped me because of her own cautiousness it's made me realize, "Oh wait a minute. Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't just be throwing around the "love" word. Yeah, my life's changing too and I've got a lot going on. So maybe we'll just hang out twice a week or whatever it is and it'll be great and we'll text all the time," but other than that I don't know where it's going. [00:19:25]

(pause)

THERAPIST: Even for you you're saying, you don't know where your feelings will end up about her.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know.

(pause)

So yeah she was kind of like (pause)...so I was like (chuckle), "You can't be upset about an article that I sent you (pause) especially when you're the one who's made it quite clear that you have trouble communicating with your feelings. You have trouble with the L word. You have trouble...forget the babies part. That's not the point. It's clear that you're a great mom and I love kids." But I feel like that chick articulated something very clearly and very honestly that I think is rare to read in an article. I have this issue with myself. I can't love myself and I've been over this ground over and over and over and over and well I'm scared to love anything that much. I think that's a very honest assessment. Forget about loving your baby. That's totally different. She might have that issue but that's her issue but that one part of what she wrote I think is very...speaks for a lot of people I think. [00:20:50]

THERAPIST: Maybe you were trying to tell her something about you and she (inaudible) took it that you were trying to tell her something about her.

CLIENT: Well I was trying to tell her something about both of us that you know, all these talks that we have? Yeah. (chuckle) It just caught me off guard because I just assumed that she would skip over the baby part. I mean that's been very clear that that's never an issue but now I can see how for a mom, suddenly she's like, "What? Don't want babies, scared of babies?"

(pause)

THERAPIST: Or that she couldn't hear herself maybe also.

CLIENT: That's right, that's right. Because yeah it's like, "Of course your son is your life but that's kind of the point is that that's great and that's the way it should be but these other parts of your life are very...it's your son and your work, which is great." (pause) I mean, what, it's almost May? So since the end of October, (pause) it's only now that she's opening up a little bit more. That's great but...[00:22:03]

THERAPIST: You know, it's funny what's implicit I don't know if she ever speaks to this, Margaret Show (ph) but what's implicit in "I don't ever want to have a baby because I don't want to love something that much" you assume she's talking about the baby but to get the baby you have to love someone else enough to want to do that.

CLIENT: Well she does even say it in adopting. She's like, "There's just something because once I have a child that's a totally different relationship that at that point I would have to do anything for that child." And I think she's just saying that she would...that would so freak her out or just seems like such a foreign concept to her that that's what she's trying to say.

But yeah, in a way that's how I took it. Forget the babies and that's, in a way, a very simplistic "I'm scared of babies" or whatever. I think it's more the yeah, the human connection, that deep of a human connection. In a way I'm the opposite. I can totally love babies because babies are pure. There's so...[00:23:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think that's what I was picturing is I don't picture you having a problem if you actually happen to have a child.

CLIENT: Not at all.

THERAPIST: I don't think it would feel as conflictual as actually saying, "I want to marry this person and have a baby with her."

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. I could almost have a baby with a girlfriend and then just be all about the baby. Yeah, no, absolutely. That's something you made.

THERAPIST: And it's part of you.

CLIENT: It's part of you, yeah.

(silence from 00:23:41 to 00:24:43)

Yeah, I don't know. It's all very complicated. The only thing I can say is I do feel like I think about it. I'm like, "Okay, what if I did break up with Kelly (sp) or what if Kelly (sp) broke up with me?" It's not black and white. I'd feel very sad but I don't know. There's this strength that I've never felt before and I feel like, "You know what? I would be totally fine." I've never been able to say that before. I'd be sad. I might even get really depressed or whatever. I might even regret something but I would totally move on and I would totally feel like, "Alright, whatever. I can easily date someone else. I can find someone else." I'm just tired of all that, of investing so much in one person to feel something that I really wish I'd had years ago, not now. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Years ago as a kid? [00:25:38]

CLIENT: Yeah. You play the cards you're dealt so I feel like at this point the best way I can play the cards I'm dealt is well, I'm fucking 40. It is what it is. I enjoy being alone (pause) for the most part. I love being at home. (pause) Things are pretty good overall. (pause) You know? I just need a hot chick to date sometimes. I don't know. I'm kind of not...if it's someone that blows my mind and I suddenly have to marry her, fine. I'm not against it. But I just...I just kind of...it's not the foremost thing on my mind anymore. [00:26:26]

(pause)

So I think it's kind of an acceptance. Imagine if you're 50 and you're divorced. Everyone deals with...they're like, "Well I'll fall in love again and get married!" They deal with the cards they're dealt. "Well I have kids..." But whatever. So I just feel like you know what? Before I used to feel like that was pathetic. Remember? Like, "I'm going to be that guy that's alone," and I don't feel that way and I feel like, "What am I talking about? Other people want to be me." (chuckle) I've got a cozy, wonderful house that I live in. (pause) Yeah, I do need companionship and whatever but that's...(pause) In the past that was more of a desperate...I just wanted girls to be attracted to me and someone to be...always need someone to kind of be in love with me or something. (pause) Just not...[00:27:28]

It's just the first time I'm finally like, "Well that's never going to be a problem." Not because I'm so amazing but just because I'm a dude, I'm okay. Whether it's this girl or that girl or some other girl I'm going to be okay out there when it comes to dating or whatever. So you know I think I'm finally letting that go a little bit of, "Well why won't that particular girl...?" You know what I mean?

(pause)

THERAPIST: Which in a way is like actually taking in more of who you are and your history rather than it being like Groundhog's Day.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The slate is clean. You have to prove it again. Like that doesn't feel as strongly to you.

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: No?

CLIENT: Or that if I do meet someone who I do really like, like Kelly (sp), I have to go 100 miles an hour and like that's it. "I love you. Do you love me?" So like I said, I think she's the smarter one in this case to be like, "I totally want to hang out. I do care about you deeply but I'm not saying the L word. I'm not getting all sappy. I don't need to see you every single day. I don't need to talk on the phone (chuckle)." Even though she's like, "You can call me anytime. Maybe we should talk on the phone more." Like she says all the right things. It's not like she's being cold or anything. She's very warm, but I think she's right. [00:29:06]

THERAPIST: At least what it's doing, it sounds like, is it's slowing things down enough that you have some time to really think and feel more about what you want. And I think there's a way of talking about it today as if though, "Okay, it's wrapped up in a nice, neat little box. This is me and that's who I am so I might as well just accept it."

CLIENT: No I don't mean it that way. I just mean that...no it's very complicated but that's the opposite. I'm saying I'm accepting the fact that it's not in a pretty box at all, that it's a clusterfuck. But I'm just accepting that it is what it is. (pause) My life's complicated. I'm sometimes moody. Sometimes I just want to be alone. It doesn't matter who the girl is that I'm with. Sometimes I just want to have sex with some other girl and for whatever reason often times I'm not able to say no to that. (pause) There's a part of me that feels like if you're a really serious artist (pause) you need to really be independent, even from (pause)...you know what I mean? So it's very complicated. I think I'm just coming to grips with a lot of different things that I believe. I don't know. [00:30:35]

THERAPIST: I think we're saying the same thing. The only thing that I may be responding to is in other words you're saying there's something that's just coming to terms with who you are today, what's actually happened, what hasn't happened, how old you are, what the circumstances are, and the complexity of it. But the way you're talking about it right now it's as though that's the end. That's it. It's a done deal. This is who I am.

CLIENT: Oh, no I don't mean it that way. That's what I'm saying, who knows? I might want to marry someone and have 5 kids a year from now. That's what I'm saying. That's what the relief part is. I'm open to all of that. I just know that right now (pause) and in the foreseeable future, I'm barely coming to grips with the way my life is right now. This is all so new that I just...I mean when you know that nothing sometimes makes you feel better...like last night, I got in the car. I was going to go out. It was a nice night. I got in the car. (pause) I hadn't taken my Celexa so I wanted to pick it up from CVS and I realized that I had no more money. My card was declined, okay? Normally that would make me feel shitty but it didn't because I was like, "You know what? I got all the way to the last night before I'm paid and that paycheck went a long way." I did stuff, I paid my taxes, I (pause) helped my mom, I don't know. I paid the credit card, I did all this stuff. [00:32:15]

So I didn't feel bad because I was like, "Alright, well I can't go have a beer." But I had six bucks on me. Do you know how good it felt...I took a drive to the store market. I just bought tuna fish. I went home, I made a delicious tuna fish thing, had some chips, watched The Office...like when that makes you feel so good, I'm like (pause) I don't know. Do I want to come home right now to a girlfriend? No, I kind of don't. I just want to come home to my cat and my peace and quiet.

THERAPIST: Or to yourself?

CLIENT: And to myself, yeah. For once in my life I feel like, "Wow, I feel great! Nothing's bothering me right now. I'm not bothered by the apartment. I'm not bothered by...so...[00:33:07]

My friends love when I joke like that that I'm like, you know...well I don't know. When we're talking about dating or this or that, a lot of times I'll be like...I'll tell them things like when I'm out I'll just stop and be like, "Okay, would I rather be at home right now eating a sandwich and watching Netflix?" And usually the answer is yes! (chuckle) But it's really true! I mean I'm joking but that's the truth. That's one of the best feelings in the world to me right now. (pause) So sometimes I need sex. (chuckle)

(pause)

THERAPIST: Another way of putting it is maybe not needing to be surrounded by mirrors as much. People who sort of hopefully reveal back something you need to see about yourself and just to say, "I don't need that. I've got myself and my apartment, and a cat who loves me unconditionally." It feels great. That's something! Maybe adding a person into that is maybe too much almost, right now. [00:34:18]

CLIENT: Yeah and also just savoring getting things done. It feels so good to pay a credit card. It feels so good to help pay the mortgage. Or even renting the apartment, we really need to fucking rent it. We've got to pay the mortgage and stuff but you know, it feels good just to show it to people and just to be (pause) getting things done. Do you know what I mean?

(silence from 00:34:42 to 00:35:08)

And I think it's about solitude. All the great artists that I admire or that anybody admires I can guarantee you most of them were really into solitude. They might have had wives. They might have had mistresses. They might have had whatever the fuck they did but (pause) I don't know, more and more I just believe it's impossible to create lasting works if you don't have that (pause)...I'm not going to write my novel at Starbucks. It's just not going to happen. I might edit it I guess at Starbucks or do little things but where did I write my book? I wrote my book late at night, sitting in my apartment, listening to certain songs over and over and over and over and over again for hours. So I just, you know, I think finally I can accept that whereas in the past that just scared me because I felt alone and lonely (pause) or I was like, "Why am I not getting it done? I have ADHD." No, now I realize it will get done one way or the other but I need to just be honest with myself about what's making me feel the healthiest or the best mentally and kind of emotionally or whatever.

(silence from 00:36:30 to 00:36:43)

THERAPIST: [Let's make] (ph) being here kind of complicated.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: What do you do with this?

CLIENT: This is awesome! What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, you're not alone here.

CLIENT: Yeah but you have such a different (inaudible). This is...(pause) this is like almost something outside of the time-space continuum. (chuckle) It's just totally different, just totally different.

THERAPIST: It is and it isn't. It's still someone...you can still feel vulnerable or not so vulnerable. Or be here or not be here.

CLIENT: I know but it doesn't...I don't know. It's just very different to me. (pause) I think maybe because it's helped me so much that I could never totally (pause) negate it or criticize it. You know what I mean? Yeah, it has its ups and downs or it's complex obviously its complexities. And also I think some of it's just you. I think just the way I feel about you or our chemistry goes beyond (pause)...you're really the only person I'm this way with and for some reason it just feels very, very natural and secondhand now. And that's very important. [00:38:12]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I could still imagine there being days though where it could feel easy to be this way and other days where it could feel not as easy.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, no diggity no doubt. Of course! Yeah there are days when...I think I was telling you this, right? Did I say this last time? There are days lately when I feel like the session's lasting a long time. Did I say that?

THERAPIST: No, you didn't.

CLIENT: Yeah, not today because I didn't see you yesterday and there's a lot to talk...but there have been days recently as I've felt better and better and better I've been feeling like sometimes the sessions last a long time (pause) and the only thing I can say about that is I feel better so there's less speaking through my mind and also yeah, I do feel more vulnerable. You know what I mean? The more layers you peel back I feel like...(chuckle) [00:39:20]

THERAPIST: Well the more you address...you will sometimes address the things that are less scary to address first and then when those are sort of good, "This parts good. Now this parts good. Now what?"

CLIENT: Yeah, so that makes time seem slower. So in that way, yeah, in those moments I feel more vulnerable or I'm like, "God! Shit, I don't know what to say." But I also know that's obviously part of what we're doing here so I'm like, "Well it probably is good that it feels like it's a long time. That means it's very, very different than the way it used to be."

(pause)

THERAPIST: It means that there might be more space to know different kind of things.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) Plus again, I think it would really bother me if I didn't like or something. Like in the past, other people I had seen in the past, I kind of looked down...not looked down on them but I felt like they were kind of idiots or Birkenstock-wearing morons. They were just like, "Well you're clearly depressed because you lost your dad." Like they were trying to box...I just had no time for that. Then I'd want to get the fuck out of here. (chuckle) But you know, I like being here. I like you so it doesn't...it's just very comfortable.

THERAPIST: It feels good to be here.

CLIENT: Yeah! Of course.

(silence from 00:40:48 to 00:41:07)

THERAPIST: You can feel good and comfortable and uncomfortable sometimes.

CLIENT: Exactly! Absolutely. (pause) I mean, it'd be weird if it didn't, just fucking (chuckle) psychoanalysis. The few people that know about this are always like, "What? Three times a week on top of everything else you're doing?"

(silence from 00:41:31 to 00:41:54

And again, you know what else...remember I told you about my friend Donnie and his wife? He was like texting her, "I want to break up with you," and all of that, the week of the bombing.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Remember?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So now everything's fine again. But even my reaction to that was healthy. I was kind of like, "Yeah, I'll go see them too," but I'm kind of done with Donnie's...this behavior. I can't invest anymore in that and then suddenly everything's fine and there's no discussion about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, "Dude, you texted your wife that you were moving out and it was over!" And then a few days later everything's fine. He wanted me to come over and catch up and it's like, "Dude, you know, I will, that's fine but don't..." And even that feels healthy. "No, I don't think so. That's really weird and your marriage is going to end someday because clearly it's not normal." [00:42:49]

But it's also kind of none of my business. I enjoy hanging out with these people and I know they love me but I can't get over-invested in these things anymore so I have to a little bit be, not cold, but just...

(pause)

THERAPIST: Almost like protect your own feelings some.

CLIENT: Yeah! Like, "Wait, why am I getting all worked up if two days later they're going to be back together?" And not address...at least address it. Like, "This is what happened man. This is what I was feeling." It's like...

(pause)

THERAPIST: Right, not address it with you you're saying? [00:43:37]

CLIENT: Yeah because your friends know about this but then we're all pretending like just a week ago you weren't at your mom's telling this woman that it was all...and here we are, having a joint? That's fucking weird man, that's like schizo.

THERAPIST: Well it's also not like your mother in a way. (inaudible) holding your mind that you were really concerned about him and then it's just poof gone and you actually invested some emotional energy in that.

CLIENT: Yeah it's like my mom totally bringing me down and then being like, "Oh, let's laugh! It's good to laugh! Don't be down. Why are you so down?" (chuckle) "All I do is laugh with other people. You're a fucking black hole and then you're telling me to cheer up?" It's like, are you kidding me? (pause) That was rude, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. But that's what it feels like. It's just like...(chuckle) [00:44:44]

THERAPIST: It's not...I mean I didn't think "rude." I was interested in it, where that...what's the feeling?

CLIENT: Well it's just like (pause)...it's like...(pause) I don't know how to explain it. It's like, "Are you kidding me?" At least that's what I think of that gesture. It's nonsense! Absolute nonsense! You totally wreck my day and then you're like, "You're so upset all the time. It's not good for you. Let's laugh. Ha ha!" And then just laugh. It's almost maniacal or something. It's really weird. It's like, "No when I'm not here I'm actually very consistent." (chuckle) Yeah I might be melancholy but I laugh even then and I'm actually relatively optimistic, more or less, give or take. (chuckle) (pause) So yeah, it's kind of similar. It's like you can't...your friends can't keep going up and down like a yo-yo with your weird behaviors. [00:45:59]

(pause)

THERAPIST: You've used an expression like, "I keep getting batted around by the wind," when you talk about relationships. There's something about this with your mother that sounds like you've just sort of had to follow where her mind goes and it goes in opposite directions and you're supposed to just keep up with it. There's nothing consistent. Almost like you're getting bitch-slapped and thinking about you saying, "Time for me to bitch-slap you."

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Especially when you're a kid. That's exactly what it is. It's like the cat just playing with the mouse.

(pause)

THERAPIST: It's really aggressive, the, "Why aren't you smiling?" It's really aggressive in that moment. [00:46:49]

CLIENT: Right, right! Yeah! Absolutely. Absolutely.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Like, "I'm going to make you feel like shit and then say, 'Look what's wrong with you!'" That's horrible!

CLIENT: Right, right.

(pause)

THERAPIST: That may be a piece of what's coming up with Kelly (sp) or in another relationship, whatever other relationships. Like, are you there or not there? She's here and she's saying all of these intimate things but then you're seeing each other twice a week. It can feel like her being pushed and pulled a little bit. I'm not saying it is but I can see how it could feel like that and part of you is done.

CLIENT: Oh definitely! Definitely. I mean I know that...yeah, yeah. It's a very self-protective mode.

(silence from 00:47:46 to 00:48:01)

THERAPIST: Like my (ph) not calling right away after the marathon and then calling on Friday. I'm not saying it is that but I could imagine like the feeling of how much do you care or not care and okay, I'm tired of trying to look for it.

CLIENT: Yeah, if this was the past, for example I would have been very angry and hurt that my uncle never called me during that whole week, that [water tunnel] (ph). I think he was in contact with my mom or whatever but he never called me. (pause) But now I'm in a place where one, I know it's not because he doesn't care. He's got three kids and a wife and a business that is like fucking breaking his back and I know that he was not sleeping and driving around doing shit all those night with their patients...I don't know what the fuck he was doing. So I know enough to know that it's not person. But also yeah, I just kind of don't give a shit kind of. I do and I don't, (chuckle) you know what I mean? I'll think about it, be like, "Yeah that's kind of lame," but then (snap) it doesn't sit there and kind of gnaw at me. I'm like, "You know what? These people are just..." I see them for what they are now more and more. I see people like...even a girlfriend or whatever, people are living their lives. They've got their shit. No one's trying to hurt anybody or whatever. It's not...but (pause) it feels good to be like, "I don't need to invest in your not calling me," or whatever. [00:49:41]

(pause)

The guys, they didn't call me. But I was like, "Yeah, but I didn't really call them." I texted them I think once or twice to be like, "Are you okay?" But it's like clearly they're not...no one's trying to hurt me. They're not like, "Fuck AP (sp). We're not...don't call him." (chuckle) You know what I mean? So it feels good to just let some of these over-investments go, whether it's with a girl or with anything.

THERAPIST: That they're never going to be your mother.

CLIENT: Exactly! My uncle's not my dad. These guys are not my dad. Kelly's (sp) not going to give me the love or whatever I needed. None of that. And it's not fine but it feels good to just...you know.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Next week?

CLIENT: Yeah, I have a question to ask you by the way, a technical question: is there a particular time of the month that you cash checks and stuff? Not really? [00:50:55]

THERAPIST: Not really. Just kind of random. You want me to...?

CLIENT: Just because I've noticed that there have been like...it's somewhat regular that it happens that you cash (chuckle) my checks right that Wednesday or Thursday before I'm paid.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So when I have a little bit of money left suddenly I don't because there are these checks cashed.

THERAPIST: Yeah sometimes it will take me a couple weeks, [not necessarily] (ph) the next day.

CLIENT: That's okay! That's fine, that's totally okay. I was just wondering if there's a way we can (pause)...

THERAPIST: Yeah I mean, would you rather...you're paid every two weeks? How are you paid?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm paid every two weeks so I just got paid today.

THERAPIST: I mean, let me know if you ever give me a check if you want me to wait a few days.

That's probably the easiest way. Like if you know, "I'm running low but cash this in four or five days," just say that to me.

CLIENT: Okay, I will. Thank you, I appreciate that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, no problem.

CLIENT: And I'll drop off a check for you on Monday.

THERAPIST: Okay, I know you didn't pay last week.

CLIENT: Yes, so I owe you for twice.

THERAPIST: Because you missed Friday so twice for then...

CLIENT: This past week.

THERAPIST: Twice this week and then this session. (chuckle)

CLIENT: Right, I know. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: If you call and cancel I can count it towards the vacation days.

CLIENT: No I totally understand. Of course, I totally understand. Okay, thanks honey (ph). Have a good weekend!

THERAPIST: Yeah, you too. [00:52:11]

END TRANSCRIPT