TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: [unclear], I guess.

CLIENT: Yeah, so. This was a nice walk. I was like, fuck it, I'm just going to park far away, I can't find a spot. I forgot, what did you say the lot-

THERAPIST: Garage?

CLIENT: -is that you validate?

THERAPIST: The garage, so the large tall building right diagonally across the street right here has a garage down-

CLIENT: The one where if you take a right at the light?

THERAPIST: Yes. And then you go to the end and take a right.

CLIENT: Then you go to the end and yeah, there's hotel parking-

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: -and another parking on the right.

THERAPIST: Yes, you go to the right. Not the hotel.

CLIENT: How much is that?

THERAPIST: I think it's four dollars if you're here under an hour.

CLIENT: Really. Okay, that's good.

THERAPIST: It's usually thirteen, but you could-

CLIENT: That's all right. If I'm desperate I'll have to remember that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's the four bucks though, I know it's not-

CLIENT: Yeah. On a day like this it doesn't matter, but if it's like a shitty day and you can't find a spot.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: So yesterday I went home, and I have this app on my phone that helps you with your credit. Well, it doesn't necessarily help you with it, right, it just monitors and gives you updates and some tools and I don't know what the fuck. So I saw that my credit had gone up actually a little bit. It's still below average, it's not great, but it's getting to almost average, or whatever. So I was kind of psyched, whatever. So I went to the websiteOh, but it said you have two delinquent accounts. I says, "What?" I was thinking, "Are you kidding me? I just consolidated these fucking loans." So I went to check and I was like I don't-so what are they? It doesn't really tell you specifically what the fuck they are. So then I just went on this tear. I checked all my-I pulled all my credit reports, I highlighted shit, and I like-what's the word?-I disputed a bunch of stuff. Which I didn't know was so easy now, you can just do it online. Yeah, there was stuff on there that either-like I don't know why those are on there, they should all be part of this-there's like four or five things that are still loans that are saying, oh, these are 60 days past due or whatever. It doesn't make sense, because why aren't those the consolidated sort of [round?]. But anyway, so it felt good to do all that, that was cool. [2:30]

THERAPIST: I wonder why [the bill here?] isn't all that in your mind. It's mostly something you mostly try not to think about or-

CLIENT: Yeah, it's annoying. Yeah. [pause] But, you know. [pause] I mean, I know it's going to get done. Like now I don't feel so overwhelmed.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And also like now I think I have a slightly-after the last few days talking to my uncle and stuff, at least now my mentality is a little more-like I might not have the cash in my pocket but I know I have the cash. And I think before I wasn't letting that-I was kind of doing what my mom does, which is acting like-we're like renters in our own house. And so now I feel a different [confidence? 3:29]. I feel like, "Wait a minute. What? Wait a second." Like okay, yeah, it's a little bit whatever it is right now, but I mean, really? Once your mindset changes a little bit then things actually change, you know, concrete things start to change.

THERAPIST: It feels very different if you're down and out with nothing versus sitting on [unclear 3:52] home.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah. When you think about it it's something-a switch went off finally. I said like, "This is absurdity." Of course it is a bummer to not have the actual cash in your pocket, but that's-it would be very different if you don't have the actual cash in your pocket and you just don't have cash in general. like that's it, that is what it is, you know. But yeah, when you're sitting on like a whatever thousand dollar home those two things don't quite make sense. There's a way to utilize what you have to not feel that way. Or at least if nothing else to not portray yourself like you're living in a hovel. I mean, you know, that you have no options and you're all fucking desperate and broke. So. [pause] [5:00]

There's some crazy dreams. I saw someSo I think that shit that happened in Cheshire definitely has gotten into my dreams. Because I had a dream last night that like people were shooting at me and my friends and stuff and that was scary.

THERAPIST: What do you remember to tell about it?

CLIENT: I do, and I think I was with my friend Bernard, who also lives in Cheshire. That guy who did the album art for-

THERAPIST: Oh, uh huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. And we were sitting in a bar or something, but it was open air or something like that, and just people just showed up. Like a gang of people just showed up with like machine guns shooting and shit like that. We weren't shot or anything, but it was really scary. And then even worse than that, I was suddenly in like this nuclear apocalypse landscape, which I had never seen that before, it was really weird. Like the sky looked weird, the landscape was weird. There were people, but like I couldn't tell what was happening, like if they were running away or if they were-I couldn't tell what wasYeah, it was weird, it was weird. [pause] [6:30]

THERAPIST: What are your thoughts around the heels of yesterday?

CLIENT: On the what?

THERAPIST: On the heels of yesterday. You're dreaming the-

CLIENT: What happened yesterday?

THERAPIST: Oh, just things that came up here, and talking about your mother, money.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, I think it's-I don't know. I mean, I think some of it's just what happened in Cheshire, it scared-you know, people I think are pretty traumatized that who are right around there. But yeah, I think it's also just, you knowI have no idea. Maybe it's also just a feeling of like uncertainty of what's going on, of what the future holds, and feeling kind of vulnerable because of that, you know. And then the nuclear one, I don't know what that was. I mean, IThe weird thing was I don't think I was really horrified. That was the funny thing, I don't remember being like super scared. I was just kind of maybe like disturbed by what I was seeing, but I wasn't really-I was like walking around and stuff. Maybe that's more like, you know, what's being left behind in a way. I think I'm emerging from that in a way. [7:55]

I was watching a documentary about Jung before I went to sleep. I wonder if like some shit that was being said in that doc-it was about the collective unconscious. I wonder if like shitAnd I was kind of not paying attention, but it was justI do that sometimes. But then my attention will wander, and I'll go to e-mail, but it's still playing. So I wonder if like stuff that was being said that I don't remember now was, you know, [unclear].

THERAPIST: Well, it only stays and replays if it resonates too. Somehow it's got to be-it doesn't just stay if there's no home inside to land on, just sort of TV. You know what I mean?

CLIENT: Even subconsciously, yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's gotta mean something.

CLIENT: Yeah, just like when I fall asleep listening to iPod, a podcast. I'm not listening, but obviously if something is triggered in my subconscious then suddenly it's in my dream.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I don't know if that's what it was, but maybe a combination of all those things. [9:00]

THERAPIST: It certainly does often sound like we're talking about a collective unconscious in your mom's side of the family. And the history and the genocide.

CLIENT: Yeah. So what does-I don't-that means basically that there's a-I mean, what it says, but basically that a group of people can have a shared something?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, that there's-it can be used in ways that are more way out there about thinking about how that can happen, but the basic gist is of there being a kind of shared experience unconsciously that can get transmitted intergenerationally.

CLIENT: Right, right. I mean, yeah, that makes perfect sense.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, that was part of why I've always been interested in this, because of the genocide and you know, there's-

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Who's that guy that wrote I think "Collective Memory" or something? Simmel?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: Georg Simmel I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [10:00]

CLIENT: But yeah, I like-that idea I think is very true, that there's some kind of mass thing that gets passed on and that is a much more active mechanism than we think it is.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Then a chick might come over tonight. I'm like, I don't know. She's like, "Yeah, I can come over. I want to see you." I don't know. I don't know. I definitely feel-you know, I'm not reallyOops, sorry. Remember how months ago, I don't know when ago, but you were saying like it's like a rollercoaster that I'm on. Now it feels like a different ride. It's still like that feeling, but now it feels different. Now I'm almost kind of-not enjoying it, but now that I really get that I'm in this process right now it's almost like, "Oh, all right." Like I'm almost just more open to things because I don't-because it feels good to not be the way I used to be. I just feel like, "You know what, I feel like doing this right now." And for once in my life I'm just gonna let things happen and play out. I don't know if that's good or bad, but it feels right somehow.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [pause] It's so frightening at some level to have everything get opened up so that there's so much uncertainty.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it's as if like every part-every facet now is uncertain.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: In a good way. But it's like, you know, the music, it could take off, it could, you know-well, I could go to the East Coast. Like suddenly there are all these options, you know. Go to Assyria and go to teach in Assyria. Like yesterday I was talking to my friend who's a composer, I went to their show after I rushed from practice afterwards to see them, and then we had turns for the bunch of us. He's Assyrian, you know. And they were all like-they didn't really-they were like, "Wow, we didn't really know you've never been to-we just all assumed that of course [Artis?], I mean, of course he's been to Assyria," you know. So they were like, "Dude, you gotta go to Assyria. You gotta at least visit. Like, that's insane." So then but the composer guy Seth was saying-I said, "Well, I got in touch with a university," blah blah blah. He's like, "Well, dude, you know-I mean, I know you don't want to do the ESL thing, but if they said that's all there is." He's like, "You know, it's a way to go to Assyria." You know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He's like, there's no harm in it.

THERAPIST: You could pay for it.

CLIENT: Yeah. He's like, "I get what you're saying, because if you do that then that's the guy that you are in their eyes." Because that's what I don't want to do. I feel like in the future there could be something there for me. Like I envision like going every summer and having like a workshop. You know what I mean? [13:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I just envision things. And I feel like once you get pegged as somethingYou know, it happens anywhere, right. If you're pegged as an adjunct, you're not going to be teaching some graduate seminar in-yeah. So I just don't want that. But I got his point though, that he was like, "You know." I think he was just trying to say there are ways, you don't have to just shoot for one particular-you know, there are probably ways between all the people you know and stuff there's probably something that you couldBut anyway, but yeah, that all these things are uncer-you know, the house. You know, there's all these like possibilities now opening up. [pause]

My friend-I have another friend named Seth who's a painter whose stuff is kind of finally taking off now. I think he's old, he's got to be like 50, 55. And yesterday he was like, "Dude, yeah, on your way to Assyria come to Cairo, you stay in my studio as long as you want. I have a beautiful studio." Because it's always likeAnd see, that's where the house, see, that's where that key is, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Instead of feeling like a dope who can't just buy a fucking plane ticket. It's likeYou know what I mean? Like it's such an absurd disparity. Do you know I mean? Like that feeling of, I can't buy a plane ticket? To get [to] San Francisco I can't buy a plane ticket to San Francisco, forget about Assyria. A $400, $300 plane ticket. That's-it's unacceptable now, that's nowWhat am I supposed to do, wait till I'm 65 to be able to do these basic things that a lot of middle class people do? When I'm not even middle class, I'm kind of upper middle class in a weird way. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [14:55]

CLIENT: It's like this is not-it's just not acceptable anymore. And one thing my uncle said that my mom hasn't been getting, but he said it so clearly that I think she finally fucking got it. My uncle was like, "Look it really-your paycheck in this country doesn't matter." He's like, "You could be making 150 grand. We live in an expensive city. The more money a paycheck brings chances are the more you spend or-" You know. He's like, "That's-the key is if you have a-what's key in this country is capital, big chunks. That's when you can start to make things happen." I mean, yeah, I guess once you're making $150,000 and your banking it all or something likeBut like his point is that most people-yeah, a lot of people are making decent money week to week, but that money is just coming and going, it's not-that's why Americans have no savings, you know. And my mom I think, because she has that such a negative, like, "Oh, you only make $40,000." Like, you know, her idea, "Well, if you made $150,000 a year would be golden." You know, like it's all-it's like, but that's not the point. First of all, it's not all on my shoulders, but second of all, you have all this money. This idea of like, "Well, other people have-", you know. "If you were a lawyer. Other people make-engineers make 200-" You know. That's neither here nor there, you know. So I think she finally kind of-because my uncle said it, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Hm.

CLIENT: And it's like, you know, how do you tell your friends that, "Well, I haven't gone because I literally can't just charge a plane ticket on my card and go. I just can't afford it." Because they're not stupid, they all know me, they know my-that doesn't jive in their minds. "What?" They all probably have less than I do, a lot of these guys. [pause] [17:00]

THERAPIST: Your hope concretely would be to sell?

CLIENT: Sell the first floor, my floor.

THERAPIST: And where would you live?

CLIENT: I'd figure it out. I don't know.

THERAPIST: You'd buy another-a condo or-

CLIENT: I mean, I might-for me, I don't know. I'd crash somewhere for a while, I'd sublet something shitty. I don't even care. I'm not the important part in that. The important part would be sell the first floor, sell the second floor, the mortgage is paid off. While my mom is still in the house get her a condo.

THERAPIST: So buy her a condo you mean, or rent for her?

CLIENT: Buy her a condo, be done with that. Then sell her floor. Like she moves, then that sells for another, I don't know, 350, 380, whatever it is. That goes immediately into another property. So if I find, for example, a decent two bedroom-I mean, I'm sorry. Basically a house like ours. I'm going to buy the same thing, you know. Find it for like $550,000, $600,000, I'm putting down like $400,000, right. And then just keep it going, you know. And that way, what my mom doesn't get is then we have two properties. She said, "Well, then what? We're just buying one-we're giving up one house and buying-" No, we're not. We have a condo that's all paid for and another property. You know? So basically that condo is pure equity, it's paid. So that's cash, you know. You take out a credit line on that and then buy another fucking house. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm, mm hm. [18:45]

CLIENT: So yeah, that'sI mean, one thing I'm thinking now is maybe-I mean, I guess I could even-if she's stubborn then I would sell the first and the third and she could fucking stay there. Pay off the mortgage. I mean, I wouldn't have that-then I'd only have maybe like $200,000 on hand. But that's still better than what this is. I'd take that $200,000 and, I don't know.

THERAPIST: And buy another place? In other words, would that give you-

CLIENT: This is all capital to basically start like a business in a way. You know, I mean the goal is-if I could have like two or three houses like the one I have I'm kinda done. I don'tIf I'm making just a little bit on each house and they're building equity that's a domino effect. In a place like Darien that's, you know. If we were in some other city that would be different, you know, but-

THERAPIST: I think I was putting that together, the idea of selling off in order to have more cash right now. So if the cash starts going to airline tickets you diminish what you have to buy another home. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [20:00]

THERAPIST: Because you're talking about that alongside you wanted to buy another house.

CLIENT: Well, there would be someI mean, yeah. But I mean if all three are sold and you have-

THERAPIST: There would be some extra you're saying?

CLIENT: Yeah, I meanWait a minute. Let's say the first four went for like 370-350 let's say, 350. Take out like two-the mortgage, right. So that the first floor would leave maybe like $150,000, right.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So then $150,000. Another 350, that's $500,000, and another $250,000 for the third floor or whatever. So, you know, you're taking like seven, or, you know. My uncle thinks it could be more than that, but I'm downplaying it. So let's say altogether after the house is gone there's $700,000. Well, you know, to get my mom a cozy nice little one bedroom that's good for her or whatever, you know, let's say 250 to 300. That's $400,000 you have left to put down on a $500,000-you know, it's a lot, it's a lot to play with. Or even to let's say, "Okay, I can't afford some amazing two family." Screw it, I buy a nice condo. Or whatever. I mean, in other words, it gets invested somehow that-you know. Or like my uncle was saying-I mean, I was saying too, I've told my mom this all the long-do nothing for a while. Just-that's cap-put is somewhere. Take your little dividends, whatever the fuck you're going to take, and just wait patiently for the right thing to come up, and then you fucking buy it. It's not a desperate-it's not desperation, you know. And I have a full-time job, right. So then suddenly this money, then that does go to savings, right. Because now it's like Abby's all paid for, this is paid for, that's paid. This is just cake now. I'm making-now I'm really making after taxes whatever it is. Then I could really start putting aside some money, and you know. Credit cards are paid off, everything. [22:00]

THERAPIST: Almost like using some to get the slate clean.

CLIENT: Exactly. So then that credit card, it's like, "Yeah, I'll buy a ticket to Assyria." Why? Because now I have a job where that moneyBam! I'll just pay that shit now. I'll pay $500 next month to that credit card because I can. Because now it's not-we're not scrambling. Like, "How am I going to pay the electric bill? I've got all these things, checks I'm writing." You know, that's stuff that unfortunately other people have to really go through because they don't have options, you know. But it does if she's just fucking like self-flagellating herself, you know. So.

THERAPIST: Makes me wonder more about your apocalyptic dream, just as you're talking about the nuts and bolts of actually how to get rid of your home. The fact of just being in a place where that's what you're talking about it is like a bomb going off in your own life.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it is hard. I mean, like I just am too, my mom like. The one thing-two things I do understand is the fear of things being squandered. Because she did squander it. Kind of, kind of, you know. And also her background, just losing things. You know, I understand that, they've had a hard life. But also I understand that she's old. She lost her husband very young. I mean, the house, I don't want to lose the house. I mean, it has value for us, it's my dad, you know. But you also have to look to the future. I mean, you can'tI think that's what my dad would want us to do. He wouldn't want me to be in this position. And he wouldn't want my mom to be in that position. So, you know, he didn't leave life insurance, he left the fucking house. That's life insur-around here that's your life insurance. So, you know, at this point it doesn't make any sense. Now, if there was a way to keep the house and buy another house, fantastic. Although then the only problem is that that really isn't cash. Then the cash isn't really-that's a little moreYou know what I mean? Then you are-it's great that you bought another house, but there still isn't a big chunk of just liquid cash. But still that would be fantastic. So I don't know. [24:30]

THERAPIST: It's a big deal, in other words, kind of letting go of the past and it's really new.

CLIENT: Sure. Yeah, and that-

THERAPIST: It's in your mind.

CLIENT: I understand that from her per-I mean, if it's hard for me-

THERAPIST: I know you understand, I'm just saying for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm saying, yeah.

THERAPIST: That's a big deal to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's hard, it's hard. Because we are comfortable. Mom's comfortable. She loves her house, she loves her unit. I love my apartment. Like, it's all good. But this isn't-it's not good for the future. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If she's so concerned about, "You know, I want Stephen to be happy, to have this home," well, this is the way it's gotta happen. And whatever I job I get is not going to change things that drastically. You know. And I think that's what she's going to understand. Like if she's so-she so wants grandchildren. Well, it's hard for me to even think about that stuff if this is-if constantly I'm-you know, that'sYeah, there are plenty of women who are cool about that, but I'm not cool with it. I how are you supposed to feel stable and, you know. [pause] I don't know. So, I mean, I think that stuff she does-she gets it. I mean, I've even told her, like, "Mom, you want me to find an Assyrian chick," this, that. It's like, "I know all the ones in Darien. How do you plan for me to just hop on a plane and go to San Francisco and meet some chick?" Like, yeah, I could do that, I have family out there to go stay for two months. Yeah, there are two and a half million Assyrians out there, of course I'm sure there's some pretty or interesting, or I don't know. But how do you intend for-you need money to do these things. So on the one hand you want me to do certain things, on the other hand you're stopping me from doing them, even if I wanted to do them. So it's like it's-it doesn't work both ways. [pause]

THERAPIST: She's an albatross. [26:50]

CLIENT: Yeah, big time. But it also makes me think on some deep level that she doesn't really want-like she just wants me to-you know what I mean? I hate to be like that but-it's like she wants it but she doesn't want it. She wants me to just be around her, like, you know, make sure that some girl isn't gonna play with my mind, or whatever the fuck.

THERAPIST: Yeah, hers.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like-but I don't know, it's not[pause] I've even told her though, like, "We'll do the paperwork however you want. Whatever this paranoia of yours is, like you'll be on all the paperwork so that no one can take-" You know, whatever, I don't know. It's like what-you know. "Whatever I buy, I'll buy with you, I'll just put your name on it. I don't give a fuck, you're my mom." You know, it's like[pause] But I think what it is, I think my uncle, I don't know if he sees a switch went off, that I was like, "You know what, this is nonsense. What am I, battling a 72-year-old woman?" I just gotta talk to my uncle, like come up with a plan. Once the ball is rolling, you know. [pause] As I say, I appreciate that from my uncle. And even he said, he's like, "I don't want to happen to you guys what happened to my cousins in Portsmouth." They had a shit load of money. Gone. Gone. Why? No proper investments. Selling shit they shouldn't have sold, not investing properly. Spending on bullshit luxuries that me and my mom would never do anyway. You know, just-he's like, "That's-once you lose that chunk it's very hard to get it back. You could work all you want, but that initial chunk," you know. It's like, "And you guys have it. So look at all the things you can do." You know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [29:00]

CLIENT: [pause] I don't know. And I think-I wonder if like all this stuff is another-like it's hard to think of like a really intimate commitment when I constantly feel-like all my life I feel kinda not anchored. Because of finance-it affects you. You know what I mean? Like it's like, how am I supposed to like 110% commit to somebody? Like, I can't buy myself a bed. You know what I mean? Something feels disproportionately weird about that to me. And I can't just be like-I'm trying to think of the simpleI can't go to the store one day and just be like, "Yeah, you know what, I'd like a vacuum. I think I'd like to buy a vacuum." Something that's not even a fucking luxury. Do you know what I mean? I can't do that, every little thing is calculated, you know. So I feel like that's weird.

I can't be that way but then also just be totally open to somebody in this. Because I automatically feel weak. And I can't tell my girlfriend that. I mean, we all-you know, "I'm broke," or whatever, you know. But the fact is I know that when most people are saying they're broke they're not really-some of them are. But a lot of them, they're broke but, you know. Like [with Jaime? 30:36], like, "Oh, I'm broke." But, you know, we've talked, I know that she's got like a couple of grand nestled away, and you know. That's what people do. And that's a woman who doesn't even-you know, her house is her husband's. So, you know, it puts you in this position you don't want to be in. I'm not gonna tell people that I have almost a million dollar home and I have like a hundred dollars in the bank. This is just ludicrous, you know. It makes you feel like a chump, you know. And rightfully so. If I was with a girl and she was constantly admitting this stuff to me I would-I'd be like, okay, well, what's the future here? I mean, we're not 20. Like, is she going to have her financial shit together, or, you know. You don't know somebody, you know, like[pause] Just something about it-I mean, there are obviously other issues too, but I think that's a big one, I really do. It just makes you feel powerless and not very-unable to focus properly, and you know.

THERAPIST: [inaudible] a practical side of that and is part of life, a central part of life. But I think there's ways you're talking about this now, like your mom having you on a short leash in a way? [32:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And sort of discovering the ways that money may be another area of kind of a mistreatment of you.

CLIENT: Yes, yeah.

THERAPIST: That has been totally unconscious.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: But really where you didn't-

CLIENT: It keeps me down.

THERAPIST: -[like want?] to be more independent when you were 20.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Sort of like letting that flourish instead of keeping you dependent.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. That's why when I had that major blowup last September-right, when I just went off on her in English-that was a lot of what I was saying. I was like-because that's immediately what she'll do. Like, "We've given you everything. All the loans I helped you get for school." And I just let her have it. I was like, "That doesn't mean shit. I don't want your five grand." Or like when I need something you getI need to be-there needs to be a much bigger change than that. You know. And also I don't give a shit that you-what, you weren't even gonna do that? I mean, what are you trying to say? That you shouldn't have done it? I don't know what to tell you, I'm your kid. You could help me. You know. SoBut-

THERAPIST: Or does it-it doesn't even really boil down to did she give you this chunk of change or did she give you this loan. There's something going on where it becomes a way perhaps to keep you close.

CLIENT: But that's what I'm trying to say. Instead of her saying, "Well, wait a minute, son. Your father's not around," blah blah blah, "this house is yours and mine, what should we do?" You know, "This is your inheritance. Do you want us to just sell it, do you want to take your half?" That's what people do. So my auntie with her son. Now, there's went completely awry, because he's a dope. But I didn't even have that option. You know. She never said, "Look, this is the house, this is-there's no life insurance or whatever, this is what we have. This is what I would like to do, what would you like to do? Do you want to sell it and then we'll just put the money somewhere?" You know. That would have been very different. You know, it would have been very different. And as fucked up as I was back then, I would have not squandered that money. I know for a fact I wouldn't have. Some of it of course, whatever. But I'm not an idiot. I would have immediately talked to my uncle, I would have immediately gone to, I don't know, a broker. I mean, I'm not a fucking moron. So that's-you're right, you're absolutely right. Everything was just like these piecemeal, "Okay, I'll cosign this loan." Or, you know-I don't know.

THERAPIST: There's no active support of your individuating separately.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, everything's almost like an allowance or something.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: Yeah. And kind of like a begrudging-you know, everything's begrudging, you know. "I have all these bills this month, I don't know how I'm going to pay them. But that's okay, so no, you take this." You know. So it's like this-you know, it's an awful dynamic, awful. [35:00]

THERAPIST: And there's so many strings attached.

CLIENT: Strings. And then that would make me feel shitty. So I'm like, "Well, am I being too stubborn?? You know what I mean, it starts making you doubt yourself, and why am I not just being a man and going and working at the supermarket and making money like my dad used to do. But then I'm like, no, but that's the point. They worked that hard so I would be able to do whatever-like wherever my talents are to pursue-you know, like it's just a fucked up humiliating dynamic. Then I started picking up on-when I got back from London. That's why initially there was a major[pause]

THERAPIST: Yeah. [long pause] [unclear]

CLIENT: 3:10? Okay, thank you.

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