TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I feel very annoyed, super annoyed. So there's some background to what I'm going to get to. Last Saturday we went out, and we had a nice, whatever, and we ended up getting pretty drunk. I don't know if I talked about this or not. We ended up getting pretty drunk. But when we were at the bar-we were getting pretty tipsy, we were at the bar-I don't know how the hell it came up, I don't know if we were flirting or what, but blowjobs came up. And I think I teased her or something. She's given me two blowjobs. This is awkward to talk about, but I'm sorry, I feel like I have to-it's necessary information. She's given me two blowjobs since October. I teased her about it, whatever. And she was like, "No, no, [unclear]." I don't know what happened. Now, I let it go because I don't want to be that dude that's something about something like that, okay. But it did start rattling. Oh, but that's what it was. Because at one point once or twice at least she was like, "I love giving blowjobs." I was like, "Well, apparently-" And I told her, I was like, "Well, apparently not to me." She's like, "No, I've given you-" Yeah, two. But they were-to be honest, they weren't even great, whatever. So I don't know, that was already-I was like, I could have lived with it, but there's something about saying I love giving blowjobs and then just giving me two. And then I don't even know what her excuse was. It was like, "No, we just kind of end up doing other things." Yeah, I don't know what the fuck she was talking about. I go down on her all the fucking time. So that made me feel weird. I don't know what that was allBut I was willing to-whatever. [2:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm, mm hm.

CLIENT: Yesterday I went to say hi or whatever, and all day like I didn't hear from her. I sent her like a picture, and I was like saying, hi, whatever. And then I just got like a "hey." And I was like, "Are you doing okay?" And then after a while I got a "oh yeah." And I was like, "I don't know what any of this means." Then I was like, "All right, well, I was just thinking about you." And then way later I got a text that said something like-it just said, "Sorry, I'm just really busy." Something like that. And I was like, I'm not gonna respond. I'm not gonna respond. Today around noon she's like, "Hey, happy Friday!"

THERAPIST: A text?

CLIENT: Yeah. She's like, "I'm really sorry about yesterday, it's been a really hard week," or something like that, "but I hope you're having a good day," you know, whatever. And I didn't respond. Then after that she said, "Do you have plans tonight?" And I didn't respond. Then she tried to call me and I didn't answer. I sent her a text sayingOh no, then she texted me again saying, "Babe, are you upset with me?" So I just texted her and said, you know, "I'm going to the doc." You know, I said, "Hey, sorry you've had a tough week, I hope today's-" No, I said, "Hey, sorry you've had a tough week." I said, "No, I don't think I'm upset." I said, "But your texts were completely cryptic and curt." And I was like, "I don't know." I'm not upset I guess, but I just said I don't know. And then I said, "Tonight I've made plans because I didn't know what's going on." You know. And then I said, "I hope today's better." Then she said, "Sorry." Then right before I was getting there she texted me, she said, "Can you talk to me, I really feel like I need to talk to you." I'm like, well, I've got like five minutes, whatever. So she calls me, and it's like she apologized. So like, "I feel like I owe you-" Which is so weird to me. I feel like when people say, "I feel like I owe you an apology," is that really apologizing? You know what I mean? [4:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So that's one. Two, it was like I still don't know what was so tough about this week. She was like, "It's been a tough." I was like-I kept saying, "Well, what's going on?" She's like, "It's been a tough week." Okay. I was like, "Well-" I was like, I don't know, I just feel kinda whacky. And I said I made plans, whatever. So this is the part I'm really annoyed about. So like, well-she said, "Can we-I really want to see you, I feel like I really need to see you. Can we talk today," whatever. I was like, "Well, I didn't know what was going on. I made these plans and I kind of feel bad canceling all these plans now." This is like with my friend Jurgen and whatever. So then she's likeI was like, "I mean, it's not personal, it's just I-" You know. And she's like, "Well-" She said, "Well, you know, people make the choices they make." You know, whatever. I was like, "Look-" I was like, "Well, you tell me, what would you like to do?" She's like, "I'd really like to see you." I'm like, "All right." Oh, and she wasNo, I said, "Do you understand what I'm saying?" She goes, "No." She's like, you know, it's like your girlfriend's telling you that she really needs to talk to you and you're basically saying no. I'm like, "All right." I was like, "Well, I don't mean to make you feel that way." Like, "All right, do you want to come down, whatever." And she's like, "Can you come here?" And I just stopped, I didn't say anything. She's like, "Okay, all right, I'll come there." I was like, "Look, can we talk about this later. I've got to go to my appointment and-"

I'm just annoyed all around. You know, I just feel annoyed. And I think I was really mature. I was like, you know, I just feelI said, "I also feel like-I feel confused. I feel whacky now." I was like, "I don't know if I want to talk tonight," in this headspace and say weird shit, or stuff that I haven't gathered my thoughts. You know? But really I felt like saying-I think I am going to tell her-you know what? Now you're making me feel bad? Because now I'm supposed to just cancel with my friend? I don't know, man. Like I justIs that wrong? Is that[6:00]

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: You know. And maybe the blowjobSee, that's the thing, I don't want to bring up the blowjob thing because I know that could backfire, because it's going to sound so petty, you know. But is it? Do you know what I mean? I don't know if it's petty. It could be, but it could not be. If she hadn't said, "I love giving blowjobs," I would have let it go. But there's something about saying, "I love giving blow-" Maybe-yeah, and I know we were drunk, but that almost makes people more honest, you know. Because now I feel-I don't want to be that guy, but now I'm gonna feel when she tries-any time she tries to give me a blowjob now, I'm so sensitive about that shit that's what I'm going to be thinking of.

THERAPIST: That what? What were your thoughts?

CLIENT: That like what was it all about? All these months she didn't have the initiative to give me a blowjob. Like, if she loves it like she couldn't-

THERAPIST: Maybe she doesn't love it.

CLIENT: I guess, all right. But why say that? Because that's-if she had said, "You know, baby, I'm sorry, I'm kinda not big on that." I would be like, I would just teased her and moved on. But when you're like, "I love giving blow-" I mean, I don'tAnd you say it like twice, two or three times. I don't understand whatI don't know.

THERAPIST: You just feel her saying like it's something that's personal to you. Like you wouldn't with somebody else?

CLIENT: Yeah, I just don't know what that means. Like, if you love it so muchLike, now I feel like blowjobs are ruined for me now with her. I'm sensitive about that shit, now I feel weird. You know. How would she feel if I never went down on her. I went down like twice. And then I was like, "Oh, are you kidding, I love going down on people. Or whatever I said. She'd be like, "Excuse me?" No?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [8:00]

CLIENT: I'd be on a fucking chopping block if I said something like that. Honestly, I just want to be left alone. You know what I mean? Like, I just want to be with my friend tonight and I just want to be left alone. I don't really care how she takes it. Some things-it's like a switch has just gone off in me. I was already confused. And also, guess what. You know what? I've had a tough week too. I'm fucking in a weird with my-my mom's like circled the wagons now. She's been a little weird since that day with my uncle. Just I can tell, she's kind of circling the wagons. Her and my grandfather used to be like-my grandfather used to be like that too. She can suddenly kind of be kinda rough and a little bit cold, or a little bit likeSo it's like I'm just-I just really want to be left alone, you know. [pause] Oh, and also on the phone she's like, "You know, I just feel like we haven't seen each other much. And I don't know, I'm just trying to be part of your life." I feel like saying, "What-"

THERAPIST: Where were you yesterday?

CLIENT: Yeah. Where were you yesterday. What about all these conversations about you don't like to talk on the phone, you don't like to-but yet I can call you anytime I want, you know. You're very hesitant about everything, you know, whatever. Okay, ILike, I'm not going to feel bad now, you know.

THERAPIST: Maybe it feels kind of like your mother in a way.

CLIENT: A little bit.

THERAPIST: It's like pushing away-

CLIENT: I don't know what's going on.

THERAPIST: -and then pulling you the second you're getting resigned to pull away.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And what's wrong with you, why are you pulling away?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, that's what we were talking about at the end yesterday.

CLIENT: I mean, am I being weird here.

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Don't just take my side because you know me or whatever. I mean, do I-

THERAPIST: What matters most is what you're thinking and feeling about it. It sounds like you feel-you know what this feels like.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just it's not cool. Like something's-I don't want to say askew, but something just feels off. You know, it's like[pause] [10:00]

THERAPIST: As you were saying actually like about the coffee as an example with your mother.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, have a sip, but then it gives you agita in the car, and then, oh, I wish I had a coffee. There's a way-there's some of that you're describing with Kelly. Where she's acting-she's not holding in mind that she's in a relationship with you in which a few words of, "I would love to talk but I can't talk for the rest of today I'm so busy, I promise you I'll call you tomorrow," or something like that that just puts you mind at ease-

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: -doesn't happen.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But then you get accused of the very things she's doing to you Thursday.

CLIENT: Right, right. And also I can't buy the-and also, what is there to talk about? What's she going to tell me tonight. "I have trouble expressing-" The same old-yeah. It's texting. I mean, I don't know what to tell you, it takes a second to be like, "I'm having a really shitty week, I'm really sorry." Because-and I tellI mean, I'm really proud of myself, that's the one thing that's changed about me totally. I'm very articulate now about things that are bothering me, you know. I was like, "You know, it made me-it sounded like you were just kind of being aloof, and kind of like just whatever kind of." I said, "Also, it kind of sounded like you were annoyed." I mean, those kinds of texts just sound-like no punctuation. Like, I'm like, "What?" I'm just not-I just really want to be left alone, I really do. I don't have time for her shit, I really don't.

THERAPIST: This is how you were treated as a kid.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I want to be with my friend. And you know what? If that's hurtful to her I really don't care. I want to be with my friend who's like a brother to me. And I haven't told her. I was like, "You know what-" And also I said, "My friend Jurgen, he's going through a divorce. Like, he's going through a hard time. I don't want to cancel on him." That might be a half truth. I also just don't want to cancel because I'm just annoyed, I don't want to see her right now. But I tried to tell her that. I was like, "I want to be in a better headspace. I want to think a little bit and think about what I'm going to say," or whatever, you know. So it's likeAnd now, whatever happens now, I'm going to be the bad guy definitely. There's no question. Whatever my response now I'm going to be the bad guy. And then she's going to find a way-that'll probably give her an excuse to like go back to being kind of more hesitant and cold, and this and that, or whatever. But I don't really care, because that's-I'm not a plan-I'm not gonnaYou want me to drive to fucking PortsLike, it's not like we live-you know. "Hey, let's meet for an hour for coffee and talk about this." And thenI'm not going to fucking drive to Portsmouth. Like, are you kidding me?

THERAPIST: And you can't talk on the phone either? That's not an option? When she says, "I want to talk."

CLIENT: Yeah, she's like, "I want to see you." You know. [13:00]

THERAPIST: This is a familiar trap with your mom. So that you get-become the one to blame for everything that she's doing.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" [pause] I mean, is it-should I mention-I feel weird if I mention-should I not say anything about the blowjob thing?

THERAPIST: What do you think.

CLIENT: I don't know, you're a woman, I don't know. I mean, I feel like guys lose when theyIf I go back she's like, "What the fuck, this guy was thinking about that the whole week." So like insecure. You know, it's going to sound insecure.

THERAPIST: Does it?

CLIENT: Does it? I don't know, does it? To me it's not about insecurity, to me it's like I've been with enough girls where the ones who really love to give blowjobs-and even once you're going. I mean, it's just-it's kind of courtesy kind of, I don't know. Like, since October?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: When I go down on her all-I mean, I like it, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So I just don't know what to make of that. It seems weird to me, something about that doesn't add up, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You hear it in yourself then, is sounding insecure, instead of sounding kind of confident inquiry about what's happening in the relationship.

CLIENT: I don't think it's insecure, I think it's just because of my past I don't want to feel like a chump who's being insecYou know what I mean? I don't want to feel like with Samantha or whatever. You know, thatAnd yeah, I don't think it's an insecure thing, I feel like, "Wait a minute."

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because it doesn't actually sound-if that's all that gets brought up it could sound like you're focusing in on blowjobs. [15:00]

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: Right? But that's not what I hear you saying.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You're picking up on a greater theme that's in the relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That happens around conversational stuff, that happens around who's going where, it happens in the bedroom.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: Like, that's often what happens, the sexual stuff plays out what's also happening in the relationship in other ways.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like almost like blowjobs are-I know kids give it to each other now like fucking-like they're shaking hands. But I think for our generation I think it's still a very intimate thing. So thatYou know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So I feel like, is there-like, she doesn't want to do that because that's so intimate? You know what I mean? Like somehow just the sexual act is fine, but that's-

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know. All I know is I'm just done. Like I'm just so-I've reallyIt's a beautiful day, overall I feel pretty good. I'm just done. Like, I just don't give a fuck kind of. And it kind of feels good, to be honest. This is the first time where I'm not being held captive. "Oh, Jurgen, I have to cancel with you, but I'm gonna drive to fucking Portsmouth." Fuck that, man. Fuck that. And the same with my mom. You know what I did yesterday when I left here? I went straight to the fucking realtor. An old family friend, this old lady-not-well, she is pretty old. But very savvy, highly successful real estate. Sat right down and said, "Hilary, this is what's going on. One, I need to rent that first floor. But two, this is the bigger plan." You know. It's like, I'm done, I'm done. And my mom can circle the wagons, and I don't give a fuck what she does. I'm just like done. I'm done. I'm circling the wagons now. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. It's like attack or be attacked. [17:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's I don't give a shit what yourAnd I bet you-well, like what's she going to tell me, her mother died? God forbid. Like, you know what I mean. Like, what is it that you can't-

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: But also you moved to, "I'm just done now." Like, we've talked about either you're in the relationship and it's all good, everything's going well, or you're out of there, you know, cut your losses.

CLIENT: In this case it feels a little bit like-I don't know. Something in me-you know when I have those switches.

THERAPIST: Yes I do.

CLIENT: Yeah, but in this case it doesn't feel rash kind of. Because I've already been saying here for the last whatever times that I do feel like I want to get more focused on me.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. But what would happen if you told her what you're telling me, like, "I was really mad." [18:00]

CLIENT: I am going to tell her what I'm really telling you-what I'm telling you. Yeah, no, I'm going toI won't see her tonight. I'm going to tell her. You know, either text, call, I don't give a fuck. And I'm just going to be like, "I just-I feel confused and really aggravated."

THERAPIST: Or I feel specifically like you did to me this thing that felt like not holding me in the [unclear]. And then you're telling me I'm not holding you, and actually that's not what happened.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right, right.

THERAPIST: That's rewriting history.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You can't make me feel bad now-like now you want me to drop everything and see you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like, you can't do that.

THERAPIST: Of course I would have done that, I care about you immensely.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: I wanted to-it's not that I didn't want to see you, but when I don't hear from you I make other plans.

CLIENT: Right. But no matter what she's going to put-she'll be like, "Right, but you're making a choice." Like you can-you know, when your girlfriend-

THERAPIST: But you made a choice yesterday.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: Right? And that's actually what got things started, so-

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly.

THERAPIST: I mean, she's going to have that. But this is where you're up against your mother's mind. Like, can you hold on to your-what you think and feel about this?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right, she's going to have a way of coming at it to try to turn the tables.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Can you still feel the validity of what you're saying about it, and not have it be, "Oh, this is making me look weak," I mean, "I look bad."

CLIENT: Yeah, and the things-when I say like, "I want to go out to-" I'm not going to text her and be like, "I want to break up with you."

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But I am going to be like, "Look, this is the deal. And I feel kind of confused and out of it right now. And I'm concerned about a couple of things. And I just-maybe I just want a little space." You know. You know, obviously I'm a pet person now I guess. But when her fucking dog died, right, she was very clear with me, like, "I kinda just need to be left alone." Right? That was about a dog. So, you know, now I need to be left alone.

THERAPIST: You don't have though inside you when there's a disruption in the relationship that is frustrating or makes you angry, makes you do something at a person, that you talk about it and clear the air and see what happens. [20:05]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like even-so even that idea, "I just need to be left alone for a while," it's not one of, "Let me tell my mother, this hurts my feelings when you do it this way," with a sense that that actually would move things. Like, could you get mad at me for example about something and trust that it would be safe enough to do that-

CLIENT: Yeah. No, but that-

THERAPIST: -and actually might deepen the relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I have kind of been doing that with my mom more and more, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And I just did that with Kelly. I'm not saying-I'm not going to tell her I need to be left alone. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I am drawing a line. Like, I'll be like, "I'm not breaking my plans tonight. And do I want to see you tomorrow? Yeah, I guess I do. But just know that this is what's going on, I feel a little topsy turvy, you know. And I feel kind of aggravated and whatever. And yeah, I want to see you. And I'm not driving to Portsmouth." So, you know, I don't know. Or I'll drive there during the day and come back. You know, we'll have coffee and I'll comeI don't know, I just-I'm not feeling it. And see, it's a probI mean, the guy part about it that I hate is that that blowjob thing, you know, guys are sensitive to that shit. And now I kind of don't feel turned on. Do you know what I mean? Like it's fucking with me. It's, you know, you're like, she loves giving blowjobs but not to you? Or like what-you know. On top of all this other shit that's annoying me. I don't know, I just-I don't even feel sexual now. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I'm kinda not sexually into it. You know, that night when we got home we were really drunk. She was definitely-she wanted to. And we were kissing and she was kinda trying to-and I just couldn't-like IAnd we were really drunk. But I just[22:00]

THERAPIST: Because you couldn't trust that she actually wanted to.

CLIENT: Yeah, I just felt weird. I was like, ah, I just want to go to bed. I didn't say that but I just, you know. I don't know. All relationships have problems, nothing's perfect, you know. [pause] Just more and more and more I feel like, "Yeah, but you know what? I'm doing pretty well." It's not that I'm trying to cut her out, like be rash, butI don't know. I've never been this content, so I don't want this extra, you knowOr, I just have to be like, "You know what, so let's rewind, and let's just date kind of casually. You know, see other people if you want, whatever. Like, I don't know. Like, let's totally rewind it and not feel any pressure whatsoever."

THERAPIST: What if every relationship once it hits this point is going to have this kind of turbulence?

CLIENT: I mean, then my answer is I think that in the cases where you're really, really in love with someone you'll work it through. I feel like in this case it's so-I feel like we're just very like, "Yes, it's gone well. Let's just go with this for now, it's gone very well. This is nice, we're having a good time." Like, something about it, it's not, I don't know, [passion that it is? 23:50] in a weird way. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I just feel like it's good timing and we're-I don't know, I can't explain it. Something has started to feel-the more I've woken up and thought about it, I'm like, wait, what's going on here exactly? It's been since October. And it just feels kinda-

THERAPIST: Passive? [24:15]

CLIENT: Something. Yeah, something feels whacky about it. I can't put my finger on it. And I'll be honest with you, also to me these are-with Samantha too, right, the sex was weird. It's not as if [unclear 24:38], but that was weird, that particular thing was weird. And to me that's always a bad sign. Meredith, the sex was weird, Samantha, it was weird. What she said, weird. But to me [inaudible].

[recording is distorted and largely untranscribable from 24:50 to 26:25]

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: Well, what I'm saying is that should come later, when people are [inaudible] with their relationship [inaudible]. But for [inaudible] months? That should be like, "Are you kidding me?" [inaudible] we began to talk about it. So I don't know. I've been with enough people where that's not how it goes. [inaudible] awesome, you know. So that was [inaudible]. Again, not everything was, it was just that. Yeah, okay, I'm [inaudible] everything else was awesome except this one clear thing, we should talk about it, whatever. But, you know, everything [inaudible] need this? [inaudible] Don't know if she wants kids again. And even if she did [inaudible]. No. She's going to abort it by the time we [inaudible]. [inaudible] So I don't have time for this shit. Doesn't want to say that [inaudible], wants to have like a studio together where we-which on the one hand is very mature, on the other hand-

THERAPIST: It's kind of odd.

CLIENT: -also kind of like isn't that just a way to not be together kind of? Like just-I mean, I don't know. I'm a writer and I mean I don't need to work with you in a studio. I get my shit done without that. I don't know, man. Like I said, everything else is going relatively well.

THERAPIST: What's everything else then?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: In the relationship I mean. Were you referring to the rest of your life?

CLIENT: The rest of my life.

THERAPIST: Okay. [27:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. [unclear] No, not the relationship, in my life. It felt really good yesterday. I went and spoke to Hilary. It didn't feel like some kind of weird pipe dream or something. Concrete shit. Like this is what I have, this is the house, this is crunching the numbers. You know, like this stuff is real. I don't give a shit if my mom wants it, doesn't want it, I'm tired of that. I looked at like loans, like different kinds of loans, like maybe to not sell the house. I even know there are things called hard loans. Did you know about this?

THERAPIST: I've heard of it, I don't know what it is.

CLIENT: I had no fucking idea. A hard loan is just Claire's a gazillionaire, right. It's a private fucking loan. We talk, you're in the area, there's no credit schmedit check. You see my house, you know what my house is worth. I need 300 grand, 400 grand. You know that there's at least 700 grand equity in my house. You give me 400-and I tell you this because I'm going to buy this other house. It's almost like working with that person. Like, I'm going to buy this house, here's the equity. Obviously-and it's all collateral for you if anything goes wrong, right. The interest rate's a little higher and the terms are shorter, but you know what I mean? [28:15]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I'm not saying I'm going to do that, but these are real things that could very easily be done. So I just feel like this other shit about some chick-I do care, I care a lot, but I feel like she also doesn't get what I'm really dealing with here. You know, she's had a tough week. I've had a tough year-yeah. I mean, I feel bad thinking about a tough week, but you act weird over text, then you make me feel bad. And you know what, I've had a tough week. But I've been pretty cool with you, I haven't, you know. So-

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it's feeling like enough for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not.

THERAPIST: Like it's not working for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, it's not.

THERAPIST: You need more something.

CLIENT: Some-yeah. I don't know if it's just the distance maybe that feels like it's just not working. Like, we have to plan-everything has to be so planned, it feels too heavy kind of. Instead of just like, "Hey, it's nice out. Do you have time for a coffee?" Boom, you go out for a walk, you know, and then everybody goes their separate way. It doesn't matter if I have plans or, you know. You're just-you're in each other's lives more. But we're having trouble doing that. On top of all the other things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's also really complicated to be in a relationship and to be thinking of it as just staying kind of the same. If it's not progressing what's it doing then.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: What are you really doing if you're just kind of[30:00]

CLIENT: Right, right. And also-I mean, yeah, she says, you know, "I've told my son about you," whatever. But even that, what is that-so what is-

THERAPIST: And so what does that change?

CLIENT: Yeah, what does that mean in a relationship.

THERAPIST: [overtalk] action.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because we don't want to live together. I doubt that you want to get married. I don't want to get married right now. And so what, I'm confused? Because if it's just that we enjoy kinda spending time together then maybe we shouldn't be so serious. You know? It doesn't mean just okay, go see other people, but there shouldn't be all this investment in-you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. The expectations should get lower.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And if that means that she's going to react like, "Well, fine, forget it then," hey, it's fine. But I just-I don't have time for this anymore. Because it would be a shame if after all the stuff I've learned and all the progress I've made this kinda shit is gonna toy with me again. This is what always happens, right. I'm suddenly sidetracked by some girl shit, you know. And again, that's different if just complete-completely in love, completely progress and, I don't know, stuff, you know. But-

THERAPIST: If there's movement.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, there's a way it's sounding like it's been-it's starting to feel like it's just stagnated.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Actually I was just thinking of Shawshank Redemption, you had mentioned getting out of prison.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You had mentioned that movie-

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: -with a character who hangs himself.

CLIENT: Yeah, the old dude.

THERAPIST: There's one quote in there, and I think it's the main character says, "You gotta get busy living or get busy dying." But there's something that sounds like that in this. Like, is this moving forward or is it not?

CLIENT: Right, right. [32:00]

THERAPIST: You don't feel like being dragged down by dead weight.

CLIENT: Right, right. Well, and the answer is almost already-I mean, in a way we've both agreed that it's kinda not.

THERAPIST: It's not.

CLIENT: I mean, so what-you know.

THERAPIST: And you've been going back and forth about whether that works for you or not.

CLIENT: Right. Right, right.

THERAPIST: Like, sometimes it's felt like that's fine.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: But maybe it's not.

CLIENT: And you know, and I think it would be fine if it was just totally casual dating. I think it would be fine. Because I hate to say it, then she'd just be on my roster of chicks that I can have a good time.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And maybe that's what would work for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's what works for me with Bethany. She's seeing other dudes and I don't care. You know, I really don't give a shit. Because that feels good to me in the sense that, good, then I don't need to-no drama. Like, I don't need any of that shit. We're just gonna have a good time, we like each other, and we like to have a beer and flirt, whatever the fuck we do. But then I just wanna be focused on this life that I'm working on.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And the only thing that makes me feel bad is I don't think she's going to take any of this the right way. She's a strong willed person, you know. And I think what's gonna happen is I'm the first dude she's been this-according to her-this serious about since her divorce, so I can see how that might-do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: She might be like, "Well, forget it." You know, like immediately retreat or whatever. Because she doesn't really seem like a-like, "I totally understand what you're saying, this is my fault." She doesn't seem like that type, she seems pretty, you know. Like, "Yeah, I'm sorry, but-" But, you know. [34:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [pause] In a way less psychologically-minded than you've become.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you're not sure she could bear to hold open what's happened.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And where you both are-

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: -and her contribution to it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. No, and see the thing, when I say again like I want to be left alone, I think that this is just validating that. I just need to be focused on this stuff. And whatever peripheral girlfriends come and go, that's almost like a fun release. That's how I need to feel it, I think. Do you know what I mean? Because that is what it is, I do enjoy that shit. But not this. You know, it's not working for me.

THERAPIST: I guess my only fear to that piece-which may not be what you're saying-but the piece that we are watching for is like would she use this as data that that's it, I can't trust a man ever again. Like will it fall into her-

CLIENT: No, no, that's not-I don't mean like-this is not a thing about women. No, no, no, what I'm saying is-[unclear] I mean, like Bethany's just going to be some sex toy or some shit like that. all I'm saying is this is my priority now. My priority is this. Like, you know, this, the house, having more than two fucking nickels to rub together. And ultimately the real thing. For example, you know what I was thinking, like, you know what, I think I need to suck it up and admit two things to myself. One, if I'm ever going to get really, really, really serious with someone she needs to be under 35. It has to be. If she's 36, 37, by the time we even get anywhere, how is this chick gonna want to have kids? Or even if she does, maybe one. You know what I mean? Like how are we going to do this? So one, she has to be I guess much younger than me. Two, I think she needs to be skinny. I mean, if I'm going to totally focus-

THERAPIST: [laughs] [36:15]

CLIENT: I know that sounds lame. I'm not trying to sound like-what I'm trying to say though is that-what I am trying to say though is I do find-I do end up kind of just in something, right. With Kelly it could have just kept going, but I was the one that raised that, right? I didn't want to see other people. Why did I do that? Because at the time I wasn't this guy yet. I was getting better and better and better and better, but I was so thrilled that this chick who I thought completely blew me off two years ago sought me out, is all into me. You know, I kinda got caught up in it, you know. And I've done that before. I really-it was different, I really do think she's amazing, and I do-you know. But there was still that element a little bit of she's filling a need. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like, you know what, long-term the three chicks I've been truly kind of in love with, I mean, what did they have in common? They've all been under 34 or 33, and they've all been thin. Those aren't the only two reasons I love them, but it does mean something to me. You know, I'm a thin dude and I'm not huge.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was wondering why. Do you know a sense about why thin-

CLIENT: I think it's a proportionate thing. I'm a classicist that way. I think couples look nice together, like they-there's something about-I mean, I'm a slender dude, I'm not 6'5", you know, and esthetically it's just-it goes together better. You know what I mean? You know, that's one. Two, I'm sorry, but kids change women. And if you're already overweight you're not going to slim down after you have a kid, it's just gonna get probably a little bit worse. So then I don't want to be the dude that became an asshole and gave into his weakness and cheated on his wife and kid. You know, like I don't want to be that dude. [pause] [38:30]

I think that's just a realistic thing. That's just a real thing, you know. Just like if a woman really likes 6'5" muscle dudes and ends up with me. If she's not completely, completely has let go of that image, that's gonna be a problem. That'll bite you in the ass, you know. Because we're human beings, man, we're driven by certain-what's the word?-certain cravings or certain-you know, and there's only so much of that you can tamp down. You have to either completely let it go or it's not gonna work. And I never completely let it go when I'm with someone who's overweight. Maybe it's completely unhealthy, but that's the one unhealthy thing I think I can't do anything about, I don't think.

THERAPIST: I don't really think it mean don't do that, or it's unhealthy or healthy, not a judgment, just understanding why descriptively, that became important. Like your mom's thin, right, she's petite?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Is it that kind of body type?

CLIENT: What-I mean, my mom's old, what do you mean?

THERAPIST: Just like what her body's been like for you. You know, because that's often a part of what feels familiar. What love felt like as a kid.

CLIENT: I mean, no one in my family is overweight really. I have one cousin who's-she's kinda overweight. But yeah, we're all slender.

THERAPIST: So that's part of it all, just that's what you're accustomed to.

CLIENT: Yeah, my dad was a slender dude, my mom's slender, my aunts are slender. My grandfather was a tall thin dude. My grandmother was a little more voluptuous, but not really overweight, you know. And yeah, of course it's I guess just kind of more voluptuous. But a lot of times it's just walking a fine line. As soon as there are more kids involved, as people get older, that doesn't get better, it just gets more[pause] [40:30]

THERAPIST: So it feels like just accepting what you're drawn to.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. I was just gonna say, it's just what I'm-you know. I mean, it's like saying I don't think I could be with a woman who dresses really conservatively. I don't give a shit if she's skinny or not, you know. Or like a hippy or something. I don't give aAnd she could be a supermodel, it's probably not gonna work. So. [pause]

THERAPIST: So part of it's also just getting to know yourself.

CLIENT: That's exactly what it is, yeah.

THERAPIST: Just letting that be.

CLIENT: And just being okay with that, instead of like, "Well, this girl digs me. And she's pretty, you know, so I have to just fucking-" You know.

THERAPIST: Right, so what.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What do you dig?

CLIENT: Right, right. [pause] Oh, god.

THERAPIST: I think it goes back to how long you hated so many parts of yourself.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah, exactly. And how determined I am. I mean, I'm relatively young. You know what I mean? Like, I've gotten a little bit better lately. I've been, "Wow, no wait, I've got a bunch a years till I'm 50." And that's still not particularly old, you know, middle aged. And I'm like a youthful type of dude. I got a lot-what am II mean, yeah, I do want to get a lot done, I do feel a little bit like I'm catching up a lot. But while I feel this way, since things are so much better, I want to stop just getting caught up in shit that I don't have any intention of being caught up in, just because it's filling some well, you know. [pause] [42:30]

THERAPIST: So maybe we can address that while I'm here [unclear].

CLIENT: Yeah. Also-no, this goes back to the artwork thing too, right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, she was all weird about that. Like, I'm just kinda done. I'm not crossing a line through her name, I just-

THERAPIST: No, but it's also about having confidence in your judgments.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like actually saying, "If I felt something was weird maybe there was something weird." Like, rather than, "Is that me being weird?" I mean, you often will bring in those kinds of examples and ask me, "Am I being weird?" Like you don't quite know-

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: -that you can trust your judgment.

CLIENT: Well, also because I want to be a bit coy about it. I do want someone to call me out if I am. Sometimes it is hard to know.

THERAPIST: You do want that. But as much you don't know-

CLIENT: Yeah, sometimes.

THERAPIST: -even when you're having like a legitimate reaction, like that you don't know if it's legitimate.

CLIENT: Yeah, like I feel bad about it or something, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: If it's okay for you to go with that reaction-

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: -and have it be valid in a relationship. [44:00]

CLIENT: Right. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. [pause] Yeah. [long pause] I think a very simple test going forward would be, now that I'm where I am now, a chick who like she's being proactive. Do you know what I mean? I'm not the one as so much trying to conquer this beautiful-you know what I mean? That there's some kind of-she's kinda chasing me too. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like, there needs to-I don't feel-I'm tired of not feeling enough care from a chick. I just don't, I don't feel that. I feel like I have to-like fucking pulling teeth. And like I have to tell them my whole-like, "You know, this is my life, this is-" It's almost like a sob-not a sob story, butDo you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like, I don't need to know your story to-that's just the kind of person I am, I just give that empathy and care. And I just kinda sometimes don't feel that from chicks. And it's my fault. It's not their fault, it's my fault, because I like certain kinds of women, I've come to find out. SoLike the little things. Like, you know, she doesn't really offer a lot of times to pay for things. Sometimes she does. Or she'll make a big-like for my birthday she booked something in Maine. Okay, that's very nice. But it's like day to day, dates, whatever, she's not that-you know, I pay for a lot of shit. It's a little thing, but again, all these things add up to be-

THERAPIST: Mm hm, mm hm. On that question, do you or do you not know that you're worth being taken care of? [46:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, you just said it. Like, there's the rub, that you've fallen for women who don't do that so much.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's your mother, right?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, that's what you know of as where you felt first the life and the warmth with someone who was there and then not being there.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's like wishy-washy, imperceptible weird neurosis bullshit, yeah.

THERAPIST: And right when you were five and just wanting to be loved [unclear], and that's what you're getting and that's what's inside you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're talking about what love feels like.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That's what you're used to.

CLIENT: Right. [pause]

THERAPIST: Have a nice day.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks, Tricia. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: You too.

CLIENT: All right, thank you. See ya.

END TRANSCRIPT