TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Yep, that's everything. (pause) I feel like sometimes my — the iPhone calendar has saved my ability to do things (chuckles) because I can't remember.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And everyone is like "Oh, you can do this and that" and I'm like "no." I just can't. (pause) So I had a really nice time this Thanksgiving.

THERAPIST: Oh good. That's great.

[00:00:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, it was great and kind of sad in a little way because (pause) I don't always think sort of collectively how — I mean, I do, I don't know. I didn't quite realize the full extent of how frustrating and annoying and not fun Thanksgiving has become for me when I went to my parents' until I was like "Oh, I'm just, you know, hanging out with people I like and we're having dinner and it's really nice. I could take a nap if I want, and no one will wake me up." (inaudible at 00:01:51) even have a second full glass of wine because I could get one and then get a short pour but beyond that, it's just "no."

[00:02:04]

And people were looking at me (chuckles) and I'm like "Yes, that's how my mom does it." You know, or the option of like splitting a large bottle of beer with my dad, that's it. So I think (inaudible at 00:02:18) has affected my ability to have more than like a drink or two because I've noticed now, like I had two glasses of hard cider and then I was like "Hmmm, I don't -" because I think if I drank any more, I'd be sick.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: You know, it's just like "Oh, that did not settle" —

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: — which is weird because — not that I drink a lot, but two glasses is kind of nothing.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That somewhat annoys me in that [it isn't exactly] to have fun cocktails.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But yeah, you know, like it was just very pleasant and I wasn't stressed at all.

[00:03:02]

And I saw these friends of mine. The only thing that was, you know — I didn't go see anyone, any of my friends who go back to (inaudible at 00:03:22) for Thanksgiving, like where my parents are.

THERAPIST: Oh, right.

CLIENT: So normally at the very least I'll see Jamie, I'll see Zoe (sp?), and kind of find out who else is around. Occasionally I'll see other friends who are more distant. (pause) So I didn't miss seeing Zoe (sp?) as much as I thought. (pause)

[00:04:03]

Usually that's one of the definite — like when I'm home for Thanksgiving, I always try to see her. I know her family schedule, like how they — like the Friday after Thanksgiving, they always go and cut down a Christmas tree, so Friday is always out. Then we usually do Saturday afternoon, sometimes dinner, but it's not always okay. [I get that at this point, some people don't always know] what they're doing. So I had sent her an e-mail like a week ago, saying "Hey, I'm not going to be around for Thanksgiving, we should try to hook up on the phone" and she didn't reply.

[00:04:58]

So then I sent her a text, saying like "Hey, you should give me a call or let's try to find a time." No response. So I was — I don't know — like a combination of like — I mean, I felt kind of hurt and I'm like "Why won't you return my phone call or e-mail?" And we both talk about how we're bad at doing things like that, so there's like a no-guilt callback clause, like "don't feel bad about it."

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: But still, it's kind of like, come on, and part of me felt in a way that's not like it couldn't happen. But I was kind of thinking, I've been talking and thinking about this really horrible thing that happened in our friendship and in a way, I'm like that's somehow affecting her not calling me.

[00:06:14]

THERAPIST: Like you brought that up again and she pulled away again or something.

CLIENT: Right, even though like —

THERAPIST: [I understand it's psychological].

CLIENT: Yeah, totally. I'm just like — because at one point, I think it was like Friday late night or early morning, and I was super freaking out about it. Not really freaking out, just kind of like being more frustrated, like "Did I really text her? Yes, I did." Ashby pointed out that Zoe (sp?) works in the DOD and they've been a little busy lately, which is true, but she doesn't work in the areas where everyone has been going crazy, so I'm kind of like "hmmm."

[00:07:06]

So I finally heard from Zoe (sp?) and she's like "Oh yeah, I was -" She e-mailed me and she was like "I was phone-free all weekend." Which is like what, really? That seems impossible, but okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And she's like "Yeah, we should talk sometime." So, I don't know. It really wasn't very satisfying as like a thing to say.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, you know, the other thing I was thinking about is kind of like, is it also that our friendship is just, naturally as friends we're drifting apart? You know, time passes, how many kids do you know from high school?

[00:08:07]

And, you know, her terrible boyfriend is always a problem because he lives with her, and he comes to her house for basically all holidays and always wants to come along if we go out and do something.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That's really awkward and it puts Zoe (sp?) in a difficult position, like there's no way for her to say "No, you can't come." You know, she knows I don't like him and so I think it just makes it difficult if I want to do something with her and he says "Can I come along?"

[00:09:06]

THERAPIST: You know, I would say like in general, "no."

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: One can ask a partner, especially if you've been with him for a while, you live with him or whatever, "No, you're not coming, forget it."

CLIENT: So that's how I feel.

THERAPIST: I understand it may not work that way in their relationship but in general, people say stuff like that all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's one of those things where like your partner is not attached to your hip, and an invitation is not implicitly the other person. But then I also feel like there are a lot of other people who are like "No, it always implicitly includes my partner." Or it doesn't implicitly exclude.

THERAPIST: Well, even if it does implicitly include them, they could know you'd rather — I mean, for whatever reason, they could want to be, or they know that you could want to be, just the two of you, [and tell the friend not to come].

[00:10:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's also a relationship aspect that I'm always like — (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Right. I understand.

CLIENT: Like, in general.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah, you know, for whatever reason, it's difficult for her to do that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In ways where I'm always like — like I've invited her several times to go to the Fat Girl Show, a fat shopping event. I'm like "Let's hang out and shop or whatever" and I think almost every time, she's been like "Yeah, so, you know, Abrahm is going to come along too" and I'm like "Why? We're going clothes shopping. He doesn't care."

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:10:58]

CLIENT: And unless you're sharing driving down, which you don't even need to because — like, whatever, I'm just kind of like, this makes no sense.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Why would he do that? And why would you think that is like okay?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because a couple of times when I tried to invite her, it was very much like "girls' weekend," you know, just to set the no-boyfriend stage. (laughter)

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Right.

CLIENT: It didn't work. So all that included aside, once she e-mailed and was kind of like "Meh, I'll call you sometime," I was also thinking like I don't know if I want to talk to her. Like if I actually want to talk to her or like if I would like to be talking to her, if that makes sense.

[00:12:11]

Like am I holding onto the friendship out of "we've known each forever" or remembering when we used to be super close. (pause) Like Jamie and I became closer post-high school, in part because I used to go down to the city and visit her like every couple of months. You know, and also at the beginning when she was in college — she didn't really tell me until later — she was super lonely and really liked me calling her — like when she was first in college and then when she first moved to the city — me calling her was like "Someone is going to call me and talk to me and know me." And I was like "Oh my God, if I had known that, I would've called you more frequently."

[00:13:04]

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: But I hate talking on the phone but, you know.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: We could've made it work.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (pause) So yeah, I do feel like — I don't know. Like it's not that I have really boring "how's the weather?" conversations with Zoe (sp?). (pause) But I don't think recently we've had a lot of like really great "yeah, that was amazing" conversations. (pause) So, I mean, that was very weird to — (pause)

[00:14:00]

Like I do value having long friendships, and while she's certainly not the only person I've known for a very long time, she is the person — I'm pretty sure — she's the person that I've known the longest like as a friend or pretty much anything. (pause) It just feels very weird to kind of let that go or even think about letting that go. Like I don't know that I want to stop being friends, but I also don't know how much is like pure stubbornness or that we've known each other so long. (pause)

[00:15:03]

Yeah. (pause) I mean, when she was burned in the fire, I was so devastated.

THERAPIST: I remember.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was just so awful. (pause) And kind of one of the things I thought about a lot during that was that I missed her, and I didn't want to regret not having seen her or talked to her or whatever.

THERAPIST: I remember you wanted to go down, and it was a question of how soon you could go down and see her, by then you were —

CLIENT: Yeah, I wasn't doing well either.

THERAPIST: Sorry, I was thinking like, if I remember right, trying to think what was best for her and not wanting (inaudible at 00:16:01) and wanting to see her, and you were —

[00:16:04]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: — really motivated to be there for her.

CLIENT: Yeah, you know, and one thing I thought about was I know it sucks when there's too many people at the hospital and, you know, staying in a hotel would be kind of crazy. Staying with her boyfriend would make me want to punch him, like everything. And I haven't visited since then. Like they have a new place, whatever. And I was thinking well maybe for the next inauguration, I could go down and visit her and be one of many people wanting to stay at her apartment.

[00:16:59]

Aside from whether or not I want to go to the inauguration, which I probably don't actually, I don't know. Like I'm not right now really feeling like I want to like visit. You know, theoretically, a trip like that would be like — you know, the inauguration is the excuse for me to get off my butt and come down, blah blah blah blah, and right now I'm just sort of like "Hmmm, I can't get a hotel room," et cetera, et cetera. And like I think about all the [exams] and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, not necessarily her. (pause) Yeah, I don't know. It's just — man.

[00:18:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like it's more like you're sort of discovering that you don't feel as interested or as motivated to see her.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And, you know — (pause) Yeah, and that's a very — it's just a very — like it feels really weird. (pause)

[00:19:06]

I don't know. Like when they have, you know, contests where you can win a luxury vacation for you and three of your closest friends, like I used to think that would be so awesome, and I would always think well, of course, Zoe (sp?) is plus one and then who are the other people?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: At various times I would be like oh, it would be these and this and whatever. And so now, I'm like hmmm, maybe not. Or I was thinking about how RuPaul's Drag Race is doing a drag cruise which, you know, is for me. I'm like that is the most magical, wonderful thing in the world. I would go on a cruise for that, and I decided not to for money reasons, but I was still like that sounds so amazing. And I was talking to various people —

[00:20:04]

THERAPIST: So what is it -

CLIENT: It's like a three or four day cruise with a lot of members, like cast members from RuPaul's Drag Race, and you can pick your favorite drag queen to kind of get special events with them. Like a cocktail party where they might be talking or you could get a photo, and there's lots of drag shows and sunlight and drag queens. But mostly there would be drag queens on a cruise. Like what could be better? (laughter)

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Uh huh.

CLIENT: That's pretty much it.

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: But also when I think about cruises, I'm always like there's going to be so many really normal people. Everyone is going to be straight and weird and white and "meh."

THERAPIST: I see. Not so much on this one.

[00:21:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm like that will be a (inaudible at 00:21:05) cruise.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: A couple [tran] friends of mine —

THERAPIST: That's too bad it didn't work out.

CLIENT: Yeah, the other thing is I really wanted it to be in February and it's in mid-December. So it's like I really want a cruise that's in the middle of the winter. (chuckles) Because I don't want that part.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm really bummed about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's too bad.

CLIENT: But yeah, Zoe (sp?) [actually doesn't even have an] interest in drag queens because, you know, certainly not everyone has to love drag queens. But I was kind of thinking like hmmm, what if — like there are gay-themed cruises which I know several people — couples who do that.

[00:22:02]

And I'm like hmmm, I don't know if she'd feel totally comfortable with that. Also, her boyfriend would probably want to come, and it would be really weird because like I worry. I've been with him in gay places and he's kind of rude about it.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: It also makes me feel like, so if I can't invite you to — not that she has to share all my interests — but if I can't invite you to hang out with parts of my community, like where are we going with this?

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: And there are some things I don't talk to her about, just because like I haven't talked to her about being kinky, just because it would be too much information.

[00:23:08]

Like I think I probably vaguely mentioned, but say I was having dinner with a ton of my friends, someone would probably make a lewd joke about kink at some point. (pause) Like I discussed polyamory with her a while ago, and she didn't react super well. We were also in our early 20s, so — (pause) But like I have a level of nervousness about her hanging out with friends of mine who are transgender or poly, or all these other things that I don't have with most of my other friends.

[00:24:04]

Like there are people who I probably wouldn't invite to the Transgender Day of Remembrance because it would be super awkward. But I would trust them to mostly behave.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: I'm like "only if you're really interested so you wouldn't be weird," and I don't totally trust her on that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) It's like the way that you're talking about all of this is sort of like realizing that you don't feel as close to her, I guess.

[00:25:14]

And then kind of explaining all these reasons [which I don't sense]. I guess sort of what I'm struck by is that kind of in a way, you don't sound more annoyed. Like you're talking about this long list of ways that she hasn't been there for you or taken an interest in what you care about or things you care about, and it's sort of like "I'm realizing I don't feel so much like hanging out with her or making such an effort with her."

[00:26:10]

And well, I guess, yeah, because she's done all these things, look. Or like "I couldn't bring her here and I couldn't bring her there. She isn't interested in this and she wouldn't behave there and she wanted to bring her boyfriend" or some other thing. And then a lot of times, sort of like "I'm angry or annoyed or this person is frustrating me" because it goes from the feeling to the event — "because this person did this, and so I really don't feel like being as close." But it's like the other way around.

CLIENT: Yeah, I just like — I think basically I haven't wanted — a lot of these things are like individual events —

THERAPIST: Sure, absolutely.

CLIENT: So I don't really think about oh, there's like these 10 things.

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:27:08]

CLIENT: It's always like well, no, there's just that one time.

THERAPIST: Right. Like you don't want it to be true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that would make sense, sure.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't want it to be true and also — then I'm like okay, well, like I have made not just one compromise but like a bunch.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And her compromise is, you know, basically around her boyfriend. I mean, there may be others, I have no idea. But as far as I know, that's like —

THERAPIST: But like what compromise is she —

CLIENT: In terms of like are there things she really likes that I'm not very interested in, that she's like "Okay, well, invite Karen to the economic policy discussion" because I don't care about economic policy.

[00:28:14]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Except that I can't really think of anything like that. (pause) You know, with regards to her job, I find it really interesting and we're of the same political leanings, and the stuff she does is totally interesting to me. And the social things she does, I'm like yeah, I would totally do that. Not that everything she does is something I would want to do.

[00:29:02]

But I can't really — I'm not really aware of times where she's been kind of like "uhhh" (ph). Like I've never really gotten the sense that she's ever been like "I don't know if I want to invite Karen to this thing." Or she really wants to go to X, and I'm like "ehhh" (ph).

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: So there's that, but there's also like when I visit her in Philly — I don't know. I haven't gone to — I haven't met a lot of her Philly friends which I'm like, well, I don't go there that often for reasons and when friends of mine visit me, I usually don't — I don't always introduce them to all my local friends either because I want to hang out with them.

[00:30:07]

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: Not the people I see every week.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess I feel in many ways like, with the exception of her relationship with her boyfriend, I just feel like her life is more of an open book to me than I am to her.

THERAPIST: [I get the impression, but I'm not sure, that you show more interest.]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, like part of what I was thinking about this weekend is am I the one who always calls her? I don't know. (pause)

[00:31:14]

Because I'm not a great initiator of doing things, making social plans. But I'm also thinking like you know — like her brother lived here for, I don't know, five or six years. He came here after college and then went to the Business School. And so weirdly either she wasn't coming from Philly to visit him a lot here or whenever she did, she didn't call me. I mean, a couple times she was like "I'm here visiting my brother. We should do whatever."

[00:32:12]

But like I think when I visit — I don't know. I guess when I visit family members, I also either try to be like "Hey, [while I'm here], what's up?" Or sometimes I'll be like "I'm sorry, I can't see you because family," you know.

THERAPIST: Yep. I'm sorry, what did you say? "Hey — "

CLIENT: Oh, sometimes when I'm in Chicago, I feel like I know 50 people here, and I'm just like "I'm sorry — "

THERAPIST: Oh, "while I'm here." Is that what you said?

CLIENT: Yeah, "while I'm here, there's just too much family stuff."

THERAPIST: Right, yeah.

CLIENT: We leave the house or whatever. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:33:07]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, and also like she doesn't really express interest beyond some of the things that I just sort of give you the basics of. Like the last time we hung out together in Chicago, a bunch of us were going. We shared a room — Zoe (sp?) and I shared a room with two of my friends, and they were going to a BDSM party and we weren't.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think I remember this.

CLIENT: And so I sort of briefly sketched out, like "They're going to this -" I think I may have said a [pizza] party, I don't really remember. I said something like "kink stuff" or whatever "and they're going to that and we're not."

[00:34:09]

I also like — she's used to me constantly getting hotel rooms or like (inaudible at 00:34:14) so I'm like "Oh, by the way, there's going to be a lot of kinking, and they're probably going to be wearing sexy outfits when they leave." And like it just sort of stopped there, not that she had to like ask me 40 questions about it, but that was kind of it. I think she asked something vaguely like "That sounds so titillating and wacky. People really do that?" kind of question which I totally expect from someone I don't know very well. But I'm just like "Ummm, you've known me for a long time. These are friends of mine, and it's not really the most respectful way to talk about what my friends are doing."

[00:35:09]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like I get that it is, in fact, a wacky, titillating topic.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: But that said, I don't know. (pause) Yeah, it's just — I guess also a part of that weekend was that I had gone with the expectation that we're going to meet up with some of my other (inaudible at 00:35:49) friends in Chicago and various things that didn't totally come together. (pause)

[00:36:08]

I don't know. Like it didn't feel like I was — I don't know. I just didn't feel like — We were doing things together, like totally physically we were doing things together. We're having dinner with a bunch of my friends and you're hanging and talking with them, which is fine. But I don't know. It's not — it's not impersonal, but it doesn't feel like super close or intimate or connecting or 40 zillion other things. (long pause)

[00:37:09]

THERAPIST: I could imagine that you feel pretty sad about all of this.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean — yeah, it's hard to think about. It's sad and depressing. (pause) I mean, it also makes me feel like sad and nostalgic for when we were closer.

THERAPIST: Sure. (pause)

CLIENT: I think that's also part of when I see her at Thanksgiving and Christmas, you know, where we grew up and we both live in the same houses that we grew up in. (pause)

[00:38:08]

So, you know, we always talk about something [current], like about things when we were younger and going to a restaurant for the 40 bazillionth time. (pause) So I feel like I have this long history of, you know, like seeing her certain times and going places and really looking forward to it and having her calling me and being like "Oh, we should go do whatever." (pause) And I feel like that's kind of, like it's no longer really as current. (pause)

[00:39:04]

You know, part of me is — like at Christmas if I don't, like will I see her at all if I don't call her?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't really want to do that, like the "Well, I'm not going to call until she calls" test because it's ridiculous. But I'm also thinking so, but no, really.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like would she? (pause)

THERAPIST: [So I kind of wonder about, like what about your other friends?]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It's just really — it's so hard to think about.

[00:40:09]

Because I've always felt — I mean, I've known her all my life and when I think about it, I will continue to know her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I don't know. (pause) And it's also like I think like well, let's say in the last five years, was there a thing that happened or was there like — because I'm trying to think when did this start happening and when — when I think about it, I think like, oh it's not just like right now, it's kind of further back.

[00:41:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: You know, the other thing that strikes me is that there definitely are a lot of people who are like "Oh, I never talk to anyone from when I grew up, like in high school or whatever." And I'm like yeah, I don't talk to 90 percent of the people that I knew when I was whatever age, but even people I really like I have tried to keep up with and some people I don't like, who I liked then didn't like them or whatever — (pause)

[00:42:05]

So I don't know. Like with Zoe (sp?) I feel like I've liked her and cared for her for so long it's just — I don't know. It's like I really don't want to let go of that, but I don't know that I necessarily, you know, like if she doesn't want to follow up then — you know, like to meet me if not halfway, then at some point. I don't know. (long pause)

[00:43:25]

THERAPIST: [I think that part of this is being unhappy where she's not, but also not being quite sure where she is.]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Not only not knowing where she is, but am I going to — like if I figure that out, is that going to feel like okay or kind of crappy?

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Oh Wednesday, right.

END TRANSCRIPT