TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (sigh) What's up?

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: So (clears throat, exhales, sounds like he's drumming on a table) So, I think I'm, well not I think, I'm going to go to Maine.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So here's what happened. I wrote an e-mail.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I didn't send it.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I just, I don't know. As much as I tried to be clear and articulate, it was like just something about sending an e-mail. And, like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But of course, it's last minute. So I just texted her. Or had she texted me? I don't know. But I just said I'm really like not And I wasn't doing well at all. Like I've been just, the whole week has just been Today's the first day I'm not feeling so bad. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Just sick to my stomach. Wound up really tight. Like just feeling like shit.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I just finally said, "You know what? This is what's going on. I feel really stressed. Buh buh buh." And I was, you know. I don't know what I said. I was like, you know, "You sure you want me to go with you and all." Whatever, whatever, whatever. [00:01:15]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She called me. I didn't answer. I was dealing with tenant stuff. Whatever. I took an Ativan. (laughs) I had a beer, I took an Ativan. Then I called her.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So we talked for quite a while. Um. (sigh, pause) The only thing I didn't do was break up with her.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I felt like I was very clear. I was very proud of myself. I was like, you know, I said, "I've been thinking about what we talked about, and I just feel really stressed and confused. And, buh buh buh." In the beginning she got pretty, kind of like terse. She was like, "I'm kind of blown away. I don't know why this is such an issue now. Buh buh buh buh buh."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And she's like, you know. She's like, "I think maybe you're using it to just break up with me. You're using the excuse of some baby to break up with me." [00:02:17]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: But then, the thing I didn't like. She's like, "I don't know. I think you have problems."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So that I kind of didn't like. And I think she was just lashing out. But I was proud of myself because even that, I came back to it. And I was like, "You know, I don't know what you're What problems?" I was like, "I have less problems than most people have." I was like, "I think most adult conversation "

She, for some reason, doesn't understand or doesn't buy or doesn't get or is against this idea that, "It's so soon in the relationship. Why is any of this even important right now?"

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: She's like, "In my mind, we're just dating and we're just getting to know each other." And I was like, "Well." I was like, "Kelly (ph), but for people our age " I was like, "I think it's inevitable. I think six months is six months. And especially when it's serious." I said, "If we were dating casually, no shit. Of course this wouldn't come up." But I was like, you know, "We're dating pretty seriously and you have a son."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So I was like, "It's inevitable that it would just kind of pop up in people's minds. 'But, wow, it's going really well. Six months. Gee I wonder kind of maybe where this is headed, or where it could head.'" [00:03:26]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I was like, " That's totally normal." And I said, "Again, this is not about some I'm not saying like tomorrow I want a baby, or in September I want a baby." I said, "I'm just telling you that it freaks me out that " I said, "If you didn't have a kid it would be very different because then we would decide together we want a kid."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "And then there's an equal " I said, "But this isn't really an equal playing field. You've already been married." So I was like, "You're like, 'I don't want to get married.'" And I was like, "Fine. I can kind of compromise on getting married or not married."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I said, "Although even that. I mean it's kind of my prerogative if I feel like I want to experience marriage."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You've already experienced it. I get it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to just be like, 'Whatever. Marriage, it sucks. or it doesn't work.'" Yeah, that's all true. But, still, maybe I want to experience it. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then I said, "And then you already have a kid." So I said, "One, you have no reason to want another kid. I totally understand not wanting another kid. This is not about like right and wrong and blaming or anything." I said, "Two, you've got to understand that I'm scared shitless. So what you're saying is we're going to keep going." [00:04:30]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And she was like, "You know, you've really made no effort to meet Jett." And I was like, "What?" I said, "Wait a minute. You're the one who has been so hesitant." I was like, "I ask about him all the time." She was like, "I think you ask more than you think you do." Really.

THERAPIST: You don't ask as much?

CLIENT: Yeah. "I think you think you ask more." It's not true. I always. I have no problem. I bring him up. I ask about his baseball games. I ask about I make jokes like, "Hey, does Jett have any girlfriends."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's nonsense.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So, I was like, you know, "I'm scared shitless. You want me basically to meet your son now. You want me to get all " I was like, "So we're going to get more entangled."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I said, "Why would anything be different a year from now?"

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "A year from now suddenly you're going to want to have a child?" I said, "You're life is very settled and you're on a very clear path." Why would you suddenly want to have a child a year from now?" [00:05:33]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean, "You say you love me now anyway. So it's not like it's going to be, 'Well now I love you more,' a year from now."

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: "And now I really want " So, you know? So we kept having this back and forth where, I think really what it is is, amazingly enough, I'm being more clear eyed about this than she is.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? She, I think And I kept telling her, and she's like, "I just can't believe this. You know? It's like everything's so good. And like just because of this one thing, it's just really sad. You know?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I was like, "That's exactly the point." (laughs) I was like, "That's what I'm trying to say."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That is what's so sad. I was like, "I don't know." I was like, "You tell me. How do you?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that's really all she had to say. It was like, "Well, we just kind of just " She was like, "People don't think of " It was like, "You know, people don't think about these things. You know? Like things organically happen. You can't predict some phantom baby in the future."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I was like, "No, you can't." But I was like, "At the same time, it's not about a phantom baby." I said, "You can predict that you want to be a professor right? And that's something you're working towards." [00:06:34]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I was like, "So I have things I'm working towards that I want to be real options. Not just that you might decide that you want to." You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right now you definitely do not want a baby." (sound of banging on something) "And what, when you're thirty eight, thirty nine, forty, then you're going to want to have a baby?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. Like it's just (sigh)

THERAPIST: Mm hm. And even if she does then, right now you're going on not knowing whether she'll want to.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: So that's a lot of investment.

CLIENT: Yeah. Both the marriage and the not knowing that she'll want a kid. It's a lot of investment.

THERAPIST: In one person.

CLIENT: And she seems to think that, like she kept saying, "No. I understand." But then she kind of doesn't.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Hm.

CLIENT: Then she gave me some thing about, "You know, this is the second time. There's one other time since the divorce. I tried to date this guy who was in his forties, and it was kind of long distance so it wasn't as good as this, obviously. Buh buh buh. But then it came down to that."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I said, "Well, listen. I'm not any guy, this guy, that guy." I was like, "I don't know what to tell you." I was like, "Yeah, I feel kind of like a chump too. It bothers me that this was never really on my mind all these years." I was like, "The fact is, lots has changed. Lots of things have changed." [00:07:45]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I said, "I'm not going to do what I used to do in the past, which is just willy nilly. Things just go on and on and there's " I was like, "I'm in a place now where I'm thinking very clearly about what things I want and what I don't want."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I couldn't have been more articulate, I don't think, without being hurtful or whatever. But then this trip. She's like, "So you don't want to go Maine with me?" I somehow couldn't say, "No."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That I couldn't do. And I'm annoyed about that a little bit. But I guess I just feel like, "You know what?" I just, yeah, maybe that part of me is still being too sensitive to her feelings.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I was like, (sigh). Maybe I can just go. Let's just have a good time and then I'll revisit this.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And then I won't feel bad sending an e-mail. Because I even said, "Maybe we should take a break." Maybe that's what people do. I was like, "Well I don't know. What do people do? I've never been in this situation." And she was like, "I don't know. I don't know what people do." She's like, "I've never been in this situation (inaudible at 00:08:50)." So I think when we get back -

THERAPIST: Mm. She has been in this situation though.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: She was saying with this other man.

CLIENT: Long distance. But it was very different. I think that was very different.

THERAPIST: But, in other words, she's pathologizing a little bit your response.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or his.

CLIENT: Yeah. And she kept saying things like, "You don't know. You don't know what it's like have a kid. Buh buh buh buh buh." It's a little, I don't know. I think I'm going to tell her, I think she, which I did tell her again. I was like, "Maybe we just need some time." I said, "Because I think you need to think about this."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Just like I need to think about it. It was like, "I think you need to think about this." You know? Because then she was joking, she was like, you know, "If we have a baby you're changing the diapers. I'm not doing that." I'm like, well. I don't know, something about all that stresses me out. I feel weird.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I feel like we're not on equal footing. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm. Hm.

CLIENT: She was like, "You know, this whole like in the summer you'd come hang out with me on my porch and we'd hang out." And I'm like, "That sounds great, Kelly (ph). But again, what you're missing is that I'm going to come there " And I was like, "We're talking about a child. I'm going to get close to your son." [00:10:04]

I get along with kids really well. And then what? Then it's going to get messy and sad. And then you're going to fucking hate me and be angry at me, or whatever." You know? And it was like, I said, "I'm not saying that's what's going to happen."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I'm saying that all the evidence.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, we're both in good places, but different good places.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I tried to explain it in every single way. And then she would say things like, "Well, I don't know. I can't." Yeah, she was just all over the place. You know, said like, "I mean I can't give you that. If that's the one I don't want to deprive you if that's something you really want."

Oh, and then she got angry. She was like, "What? So you want to go on tour and you want to have a baby." She threw all this shit. I was like, "What are you talking about?" I was like, "That stuff people work out."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "What you think everyone that has a baby just stays at home?'

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was like, "You're the one who was saying, 'You know, we're artists. We'll find ways even if we don't live together." So what's the difference? People have babies and they tour and they do all kinds of shit. Either they do it together, or they'd find a way to make it. [00:11:12]

THERAPIST: She doesn't like that you want to have a baby.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She really wishes you didn't.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So what I've decided is, and I can't believe I'm going to take this kind of a stance. I said I'm going to go. It's just a fucking night and a half. Whatever. I'm going to try to just have fun and just try to go with it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And then I'm going to do two things. One, unfortunately I'm going to be kind of old school. I'll be like, "Alright. Well if I meet some other girl that I want to " Like I'm going to treat it like a casual relationship.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because she can't seem to, you know. And two, I'm going to write to her and be like, "Look. This is the deal. I'm just not I feel scared and nervous and buh buh buh." All the things I said. "And I'm not trying to break up with you because, yeah, things are really great."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "I just, right, now maybe we just need a break. Like, we need to think about this."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? And I think that's how (inaudible at 00:12:15). I think I'm going to say that. I'm going to be like, "You know, I think you just, you would kind of prefer if I didn't want to have a child." (laughs) "Which I understand. But that I doubt that that's going to happen. Especially because you already have a child."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I'm going to be like, "I feel like that's a little unfair that I'm suddenly going to be, like there's going to be a premade family." Which is fine for me. But then not having the option at all to have my own. I don't know. It's just. I think she's very sensitive about all this stuff. And I understand.

THERAPIST: Well she's sad. I mean it sounds like she -

CLIENT: Yeah. She's very sad.

THERAPIST: She really does want this to work when it comes down to it.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: She hears that you want it to too, but she hears that you want something that she is not, either can't or is not wanting to have.

CLIENT: Oh, that was the other thing. She was like, "What if I can't have a baby." I was like, "Well what if I can't have a baby?"

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I was like, "That's all secondary to just very clearly saying, 'Yeah, I want more kids.'" [00:13:14]

THERAPIST: One thing is a starting point. (laughs)

CLIENT: Exactly. But all these other things are just ways of saying, "I would just rather not."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Yeah and, you know, the whole, "I love you." She's like, "You know, I said 'I loved you.' And, you know, to me that was a really, really big deal."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was like, "It is a big deal." And I was like, "And I love you too." I was like, "That's why I'm reaching out to you right now. Because this is so hard." Oh, and then she was like, "I can't believe this. So you're right, it just seems too coincidental to me, the six months."

I had stupidly said, when we talked about past relationships, that generally mine don't last that much more than six months. So she threw that in my face.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I was like, "You can think what you want. It just happens to be." I said, "Six months generally is a marker in relationships. In this case, that's all that this is."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I said, It's not " And I said, "Actually it couldn't be more opposite." I said, "This is the first time in my f " I told her, "This is the first time in my fucking my life I'm thinking through this shit clearly." [00:14:22]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "And thinking about what I want, what you want, what's right, what's not." I said, "I'm just trying to do the right thing here. And trying to be as adult as possible without things getting dragged out and messier and sadder down the road. Then angry or weird." Or, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, I don't know. (pause) And I kept trying to, I was like, "Kelly (ph), this is what relationships are at this age." And then she did, at one point she said, "Well maybe I just don't know." She was like, "I married a guy ten years older than me when I was like twenty or twenty one. And I went through hell."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "And it's only in the last few years that finally things are settled and I've dated maybe one or two people." And I was like, "Yeah. This is what it is at our age. We're not twenty." I said, "Again, unless it was just completely casual." And she said, "Well what would that be like? What? So you'd want to see other people?" And I was like, "It's not so much about seeing the other people part. It's about the investment and expectations part." [00:15:30]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I said, "I'm just throwing that out there. I don't think that would, I don't know. I don't think that would work anymore with us because I think it's hard to rewind that."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "And suddenly just be casual. That's just like saying we're basically breaking up but we don't want to let go, or something."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That's why I think maybe the best thing is just taking time off. And then either some amazing thing will change in my mind or her mind.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or that way it's an easy landing, I think, into a break up.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Hm.

CLIENT: (pause) Oh. She was, "Well, like for example, from my, the one thing I've been thinking is, you know, you're a city boy and you love the city." You know, she's like, "I don't." She's like, "I want to live in the country. I like nature." So in my mind it's like, "Okay, well, so there are a couple of things that are an issue." [00:16:42]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Like I don't know what we're talking about here.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) It's funny it's hard for her to see that you just want different things in a fundamental way. And that that actually is very important. That's not just a, you know, an aside in the relationship that you don't have to talk about (inaudible at 00:17:16).

CLIENT: Yeah. She gets it, then she doesn't get.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? Um. She keeps lashing, she's very, "Well to me six months is nothing. Like we're just " And I said, "Well, it would be nothing if you didn't have a "

THERAPIST: If you were twenty.

CLIENT: Either that, or at least if you didn't have a child.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, because that would be like, I'd feel like "Sure, we could drag it out. And then what? I get hurt, you get hurt."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I was like, "The child." And I was like, "You know, you went from being completely cautious, and now you're kind of upset that I'm not meeting your kid, and you want me to meet Jett. And great, but this is a big deal." You know?

THERAPIST: Even without the child at this age.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. But I'm saying I don't think it would come to a head this way.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: For me, I'm trying to do so the right thing and look out for myself that I don't want to do that again. Some kid, and I don't meet the kid. It's just like, "What are we doing?" You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If it was just her then, yeah, we just keep dating and whatever. And I'd find a way to just fizzle it out. I'd be like, "Okay, fine. It's just her and me." [00:18:24]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I don't want to do that. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause, tapping sounds) I don't know. And I'm worried. I'm worried on this trip I'm going to try to just have fun, but I'm worried that I'm going to have trouble having sex or something. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I can't help it. I feel -

THERAPIST: It's hard to imagine you're having sex given the emotional tenor. You know?

CLIENT: (laughs) Right? Yeah. I don't know.

THERAPIST: It's funny you assume that you should just be doing that anyway.

CLIENT: Well I don't know what we're supposed to be doing. Like I don't know what. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It just seems odd to me. You know? I mean I understand like it would suck I guess if it was like, "I'm just no going."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Then she was going to go by herself. I'm just like ugh. It's just bad timing. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I couldn't bring myself to just be like, "I'm just not going. Sorry." That I just, I don't know, for some reason I couldn't do that. Also, maybe because even that our conversation was so mature. Yeah there were these minor little snippy things. [00:19:34]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But really it was very mature and very healthy. And then she said, she's like "You know, to me it's a good sign that we're even having this conversation like this."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I guess that's good. But a sign of what? (laughs) Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: There are still some fundamental things that, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (long pause) So yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: What are you feeling?

CLIENT: Right now I'm kind of like in a fog.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Sort of like, "What is happening?" I'm going to go to Maine. Like, "What?" [00:20:50]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I think I decided. Well I do feel better, first of all. I think talking to her. Like I kind of cried.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think I had some kind of crying. That pent up thing.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? And then just talking to her for a long time. So I kind of feel better.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I slept better. Um. And I kind of feel relieved in a way. Because now I feel like I don't know how much clearer I could of been.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So now I feel like if I e-mail her that isn't out of the blue now. You know? Now I can be like, "Look. Again, I'm not e-mailing you because now I don't want to talk to you. I'm e-mailing you because I just want to be clear."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I want to articulate clearly. And also, "This is what I want." (sounds like hands clapping) Like last night I let it go without making a definitive, "Look, I don't want to go to Maine." Or instead of saying, "Do you think we should take a break?" I could've done, "Look, I think we need to." You know. I'm going to let this week, and then next week I'm going to be like, "Look." (sounds like hands clapping) [00:21:56]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "Neither of us want to break up, but there's a reality here."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "It has nothing to do with how awesome you are." Or there's obviously not much else wrong. You know? But I kind of, I'm not, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: We need to take a break and let's just see what happens. It's just like kind of think and ponder and see what happens.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I'm sure she'll kind of say a lot of the same things.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She'll probably be like, "Well this is out of nowhere. We had a great weekend and now you're telling me." You know. I think she definitely has pride and think she also, yeah, she doesn't want to break up. And she's sad and she's kind of, I think part of her feels kind of stupid for getting involved and then this being an issue or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was like, "You know, there's no way for me. What? As if we were going to have this conversation the first month?" Like, "Hey, do you want more children?" You know. It's like these things kind of develop. That's the whole point. [00:22:59]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: They develop, six months is usually around that time.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I was like also, "Don't focus on " I mean, it could be seven months, eight months, nine months. It's not about the months. It's about we're at a point now where things like that are going to be in the back of our minds.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't want to get involved with a kid and have a whole thing and then. And more importantly, I don't want to have to feel forced somehow to kind of not want a kid or rationalize that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or for you to like, "You know what? Okay, I'll have another." You know. And then we have a kid and then you're fucking pissed because, yeah, it's a shitload of work. And you've already done that once before. And things are on hold now for you. Like, "What are we doing? Come on."

THERAPIST: Mm hm. It's hard that you're happy right now but that five years from now, whether you've had a baby or didn't have a baby, you might be very unhappy. One or the other.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right.

THERAPIST: That's what you're trying to look towards and help (inaudible at (00:24:04).

CLIENT: And her whole thing is like, "Well there's no way you can predict this. There's no way you can predict that." It's like, "No. But you kind of can."

THERAPIST: Yeah. There are likelihoods of things.

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If things are so good for you, why the hell And I said that. I was like, "But why would you a year from now? Why would you suddenly want to have a baby?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It would probably be just to please me, I guess. You know what I mean? And that's not cool.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or if I said, "Okay. Yeah, that's fine. Let's not get married." Well then I'm kind of pleasing you.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: To me it kind of is important. I think I would like to be married. Once. Just like everybody else, I'd like to give it a go one time.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, yeah, I just feel like, I think this is in my mind, at least, maybe I'm wrong. But I was like, "You know what? We both seem to be very mature adults about this kind of thing even when we go back and forth. Let's just try to have a good time." [00:25:06]

THERAPIST: Mm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: She also has a way of when we have these talks, then she goes back to normal. She doesn't get -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I even said something kind of serious and she started laughing. I thought she was laughing at me. She's like, "You know what? No matter what, it's like you just make me laugh." It was just like, "I'm sorry. It's just the way you said that it was just a funny way of saying." Like she has a, and I like that about her. We both have a It wasn't like angry, accusatory.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, she had some moments. But I think because of the way I didn't raise my voice.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I didn't, you know. I was just very clear. You know? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or another way for me would be to be like, "Look, I think we should try to casually date."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know if that's possible. But I don't want to feel any pressure. I don't want to feel all entangled in something.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I even said, "Then I'm going to feel like I've invested hard core into something. A child, your kid." And then it's like, "I'm still not ready. I don't think I " Well then what? You know, then I'm screwed. You know? [00:26:22]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: We're all screwed. And it's like no one's going to win. And this poor kid is going to be like, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause, tapping sounds)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (sigh) So yeah. So in a weird way I feel much better. And like just talking it out. You know? That was the first conversation like that I've ever had. You know? I didn't do anything rash. I didn't.

THERAPIST: Mm. You heard her and you held on to yourself. And [holding onto yourself] (ph) didn't require even yelling or getting angry.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: It just sounds like a hard, very hard, but mature conversation.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It's not an easy conversation for anyone at six months.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: It's really been a lot of feelings (inaudible at 00:27:28).

CLIENT: She was like, "Well what does your therapist say?" I was like, "What is she going to say?" (laughs) I was like, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She kind of says what I'm saying to you.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, six months is around, this is what adults do.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Of course, we don't know what's going to happen. But it is important for people to start at some point. And around six months is that time.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: If things are serious, which they have been. People start thinking at this age, "Hm. I wonder. So do our goals match up, do our values match up."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "Can I envision myself with [her] (ph)." So, of course you don't know what the fuck is going to happen.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But that doesn't mean you just willy nilly keep going.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know. So, I didn't want to say that that's what all my other friends say too.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I think she gets it. You know? And I think that I have to be careful because she seems to be like, "Well, you know, it's not that I totally don't want a " You know what I mean? It's like she throws these things out. I think I need to tell her that, "Look, you kind of seem to go back and forth a little bit."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's like, "Well, maybe. Because they're all things like, "I'm just getting to know you. How can I know if I would want to marry you right now?" You know? It's like, "Well, it's not about that. It's about the fact that you've been clear, not about me, in general." [00:28:51]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? Not about a baby with me. Not about marriage with me. Just about those ideas.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "You're not into it." And I kept saying, "And that's totally fine." (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: "I'm not blaming you. I wouldn't be into it either."

THERAPIST: You might not be either in her shoes. Yeah.

CLIENT: "No shit. You've gone through hell."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "And your life is in a really good place right now. You're on a trajectory." You know? "Why would you want to have a kid?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I get all that. You know?

THERAPIST: I was thinking that actually, I just had a fantasy, what if she turns to you this weekend and says, "Okay. I'll get married and have a kid."

CLIENT: That's like saying. "I haven't given you a blow job, but I'll give you one now."

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah. But see that's the other issue is that it's hard now to -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She's been so clear.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That that would be, that's what I'm trying to say. That a year from now if she was like, "Yeah, you know I think I feel ready to have " I'd be worried that, mm, I don't no. Like really? Because that can be bad. [00:30:03]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But then you like fucking had a kid. And now it's all the same shit again. Diapers. I put my career on hold. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like maybe in her mind that's her argument. It's that, "You've got to invest something. And then, you know, yeah, I might want to have a kid. I don't know. Down the road I might want to have a kid."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's like, "Well, but that's different than people who already know, in general, that they want children." (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I'm right about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's just a different thing. Two people are dating. Even if we don't have kids together, we share that goal.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. You both know that that's something you might want in the future. It's a different place.

CLIENT: And not might want, "Yeah, who knows." Like, you know. She's very, "No. Like yeah, I'm pretty sure I want to have kids." That that's different. For me that sounds like more like I'm somehow going to win her over. [00:31:04]

THERAPIST: Yeah, into not wanting something that she -

CLIENT: Yeah, like if I last long enough then maybe.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's like, it doesn't work like that. You know?

THERAPIST: The only thing that I don't hear as a possibility in the way you're thinking it through. I totally get what you're saying. But what if she says in her mind, this is all hypothetical at this point, "Okay, I don't want to lose you. I would be willing to do something." I mean, maybe a kid is too much of a thing to just be willing to do. Right?

CLIENT: That's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: But sometimes that also happens when people say, "It isn't what I want, but I want you to be in my life even more."

CLIENT: Yeah, but having a kid is -

THERAPIST: I'm just asking.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I don't think I'd be down for that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because that sounds like we negotiated something? Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's a kid.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Nah. That's different than like, "You know, I'm not a city girl." But I don't know, "I love your house, and I love this area." That's different. [00:32:13]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But a fucking child. No, no.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because there's nothing. You know, the background. Look a lot of people come from I cannot deal with fucking resentments and pent up shit and then a child.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I'm not doing that. She's a very serious artist. Like she's not, you know, I think she needs to think about that too.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That she's serious about what she's doing. So how would a kid work? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Without her being resentful. Because that's the whole point. "I put things on hold. I was at the whim of this fucking guy ten years older than me. We had to travel all the time."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like, you know? So, I get it. I totally understand. "I went back to school late." You know, I just get all that. I totally understand that. So then, why? What's going to different in a year or two? It's going to be worse. A year or two from now she'll be doing better at her job.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Better at her art. So why? (laughs) You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. You sound very clear.

CLIENT: It just seems clear to me. You know? Because they are not little things to compromise on. [00:33:27]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And again, and she has a kid.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That scares the shit out of me. You know? And I don't think I'm using this as an excuse to not meet the kid.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think, you know, I've been there before with Michelle (ph). You know? That was different. She definitely would have wanted to have another kid. But that feeling of just getting entangled with the everyday life of a mother and a kid.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then like, "See ya!" It's not worth it. I don't know. Like that scares the shit of me because of these other elements. Marriage. Pretty sure she doesn't want to get married, doesn't want to live in the city. Pretty sure doesn't want to have a kid. So what do we? I'm not moving to Providence. So I think there are just Unfortunately, none of those things have to do with our every day getting along with each other.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That's what sucks. Yeah, that does suck. But isn't it better to salvage like a really good friendship or something, if we can. Maybe not immediately. But, you know. [00:34:37]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) It's sad.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I feel better that I released that and she could hear.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Almost like when I called her, five seconds into it I broke down.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was so like pent up. You know? (pause)

THERAPIST: How did that feel to cry with her?

CLIENT: It was weird. I was trying to hold it. I think I caught her off guard.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But, yeah, I mean it felt good to just get everything out. And then I was proud. At first I was like, "Whoa, I'm crying." I was trying to reign myself in.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And then I was proud that I was like, "Alright. I'm being really articulate and clear." And, you know, I don't think you could handle it better.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm asking her like, "Well what do you think?" Like, "That's why I'm calling you or I'm reaching out to you. What do you think we should do?"

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean, "This is what's going on. What we should just keep going the way ? You know. (sigh) So (pause, sounds like clapping, sigh) I guess in my mind I'm already distancing. [00:35:55]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I'm thinking of her as a pretty girl who is in my life who I'm going to go to Maine with and try to have a good time. And then just kind of (pause, sighs, sniffing sounds, sounds like tapping on a table) I don't know. I see this all as a part of a much bigger change.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Much bigger. I don't know how it's going to unfold. But you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: With the house.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, thinking about, yeah, maybe I'd want to go to Assyria to be like a visiting professor. You know, like making things happen differently.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (sniffling sound) I wrote to a couple of bigger poets in the area. [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm a fucker. But I was like, "Look, this is who I am. I've published. I'm back in my home town but I feel disconnected. (ph) I don't have a network of like minded "

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, I don't really, so I'm like, "You know, I thought I'd say 'hi' and maybe [you might want to]." You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I think I need to start some different avenues and some different -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (long pause, sounds like tapping on a table, sniffing) You know, I think what it is from her point of view, and I understand, but you know it's like she wants her cake and to eat it to. [00:38:24]

THERAPIST: Mm. You've said that before.

CLIENT: Did I? Okay.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. A couple of weeks ago.

CLIENT: And I never would quite say that to her. But, you know, she just feels like, "Oh, it's just good, it's great. Why mess with it? Like let's just " Which for someone so mature and stable it's like she has a blind side. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's like she's not getting that one kind of important thing. Which is, yeah, keep going but then I'm going to get all involved in your son's life.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And invested in this thing where there are two pretty important, well three pretty important things that you kind of don't want to -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That maybe, I guess, you might think about down the road, (laughs) but that definitely right now is not an option. So, what?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, you want to keep doing what we're doing but just forget that these things are there looming.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, it's like that doesn't work.

THERAPIST: In her first marriage it sounds like that may have happened. Some kind of getting into it and not thinking about who the whole person is.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I think she's even told me that. She's like, you know, "That took way too long to end." You know? Like it just went And I guess this guy was like totally cheating on her. [00:39:41]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like pretty openly. Just, I don't know what.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But she found herself just going with it. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But that's why it's all the more understandable. Like that's why I get it. It's like, "Well, yeah, now why would you?" You know what I mean? Because she almost makes it like it's some kind of debate, when it really isn't? (laughs) It's like I totally understand what you're saying.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There's not a right and wrong.

CLIENT: There's not a right and wrong.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm just saying that I've never been married and maybe I'd like to be. I've never had a kid and I'm pretty, very sure that at some point I'm going to want one.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I do want to keep living in the city.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, I'm not wrong, you're not wrong.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "But we can't keep dragging it out. Like somehow I don't know what's supposed to change in the future. Other than me suddenly having this relationship with your son, and then feeling more enmeshed and then it's more difficult." [00:40:50]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (pause) Meanwhile, on a whole other fucking note, my uncle has to take insulin shots now, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: For his diabetes. That's how bad his diabetes has gotten.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Totally slender attractive guy.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Crazy, man. And then my grandmother refuses to bathe and the other day scratched my Mom's hand when my Mom was trying to -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's just like, you know? Those aren't excuses. But, you know, meanwhile there's like other real things happening. I've been very good about [extracting] (ph), like they're not weighing on me at all.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But these are things, you know? I do get, when I see my grandmother now, a lot of times I feel she's so excited to see me.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She gets much more somehow lucid. Like she totally knows me.

THERAPIST: Mm. Hm.

CLIENT: She asks me the same [questions]. (ph) "Are you in school?" Whatever. She asks all that. But she totally knows me. She's very pleasant with me. She's never weird with me. You know? So it's a whole other thing. You know? [00:42:13]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's kind of been on the back burner. But it's like, you know, slowly saying "Goodbye" to my Grandma.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Who has really been like a mother, not a grandmother. (laughs) Like a mother.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, yesterday I got there, there was, you know, my uncle's like this. You know? It's like, "Alright Mom. Come on let me take you home." And she's like all disheveled. She doesn't know. "Take me home where? Take me with you. Where are we going?" You know. "Where's my purse? I don't have my purse? What do you mean I don't have my purse."

THERAPIST: This is your mother or your grandmother?

CLIENT: No, no, my grandmother.

THERAPIST: Okay. You said, "Alright, Mom." Your uncle said that to her?

CLIENT: My uncle, yeah. And then I didn't even know it's gotten to the point where she doesn't have a key anymore to her apartment.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I guess they go and they pick it up from the office or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, you know? And it was just so, you know. She's just so [adorable]. (ph) Just this (inaudible at 00:43:09) (laughs). She's just so adorable. She's got like little green eyes.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Not little, but just green eyes and you know. Very pale. And her hair is just like this short little -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She uses that, they still use that Henna stuff?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (laughs)

CLIENT: To color their hair. It's like old school. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. hm.

CLIENT: So their hair is always like this kind of auburn reddish blondish kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Oh yeah. So she just turned around, I gave her a kiss, and she just kind of whimpered.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She looked at me and I could just tell. And I couldn't, I just kissed her and hugged her and walked. I just said, "I'll see you soon. I'll see you tomorrow, Grandma." Or something like that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it was just so, like she knows. And she's confused. It's something like, "What's happening?" You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause) And then I feel bad for my Mom and my uncle. Like they're having this conversation about bathing her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? She won't bathe. And then she's like, you know, the women kind of wipe her down, but that's all she'll let them do. It's like, (whispers) "What the fuck?" [00:44:11]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But they're still kind of denial. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: My uncle's like, "I was just telling your Mom there has been some new research in the UK about " It was so quick, something about immunizing or something about Alzheimer's where they are able to stop it before it goes beyond a -

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I don't know if you read about that, or whatever.

THERAPIST: I haven't.

CLIENT: So I'm like, "Great." I'm like, "Well, that would be good for all of us, I guess." Or my kids, or something. I don't know. I mean, trials usually don't mean much for us right now. You know? Or even if it was something that was on the market tomorrow, so what are they? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Unless they can absolutely -

THERAPIST: She's still old.

CLIENT: Yeah. And she's like eighty nine on top of everything else. Yeah. So, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: They're coming to terms slowly, but it's rough.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause, sniffing)

THERAPIST: You're coming to terms with loss or separation. [00:45:30]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Even a break up is a loss.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Deciding (ph) and sitting with all the feelings of separating from someone.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When there are loving feelings too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's much easier if its a, you know, a frenzy of rage.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: You almost don't have to feel.

CLIENT: Or if was so wrong to begin with and you finally come to your senses again.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause, deep breath)

THERAPIST: I kind of sense, actually, the sadness of just you're at different points in your life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know? Had she been maybe a little bit earlier on and hadn't gotten married.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think maybe from her point that's secretly what's going on too.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She probably is like pissed that, "I can't believe this." Like, "Just because of my age and because of all the shit I've been through, I can't stop this guy from wanting to have a child." You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like that's, yeah. That's got to be hard.

THERAPIST: Or even, "I can't believe this is someone who I would have wanted to marry actually, had I not " You know?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Maybe (inaudible at 00:46:45)

CLIENT: Right. Oh no, I think that is what's going on. Absolutely.

THERAPIST: If she could do over the past twelve years.

CLIENT: That's kind of why she's like trying to, on the one hand let me know that, "Well, you never know." You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it's not like she was married for three years. She was for a big chunk of her life.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (long pause)

THERAPIST: (whispers) [We have to stop.] (ph)

CLIENT: Okay. See you Wednesday. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Have a good week. Oh, happy Mothers Day.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT