TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What's up.

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Oh, you look nice.

THERAPIST: Thanks.

CLIENT: (sigh) Oh man. So, things are weird. (sounds like drumming with hands on a table)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Hm. (pause) Um. (sigh)

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: What's up?

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Oh. I don't even know. (laughs) Um. I don't know. I went to Maine.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So it was good but it was also, I don't know. Like it was just (laughs), I've never had an experience like that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: The big issue I'm having is that I'm just, I'm not being able to have sex with her.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I'm even getting kind of repelled when she tries to kiss me and shit.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I just have this visceral, you know. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: The whole thing is just fucked up. I don't know what's going on. And so, of course, it makes it physically, like (laughs) [00:01:16]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Up here it's just solid rock. I'm in so much fucking Not right now, but like it's all kind of sore over here and my neck's been sore. And just, I got a rash behind my thigh.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean it's not like awful but it's like really itchy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, I don't know, something is just I feel tired. Yesterday I could not get I got out of bed, then I came home, and like in the afternoon I just ended up feeling completely lethargic. Like I could not get out of bed. I felt really kind of like shitty.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's just not good. So, I don't know. I don't really know what's So yeah, it's been kind of just hard. You know? And I've been doing nothing. I've been completely unproductive. [00:02:19]

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) Besides the sex part, how was it being [with her over the weekend.] (ph)?

CLIENT: I mean, we get along great. You know what I mean? So that was good. So, I don't know. It's just really weird. I can't put my finger on, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) Did you talk more about -

CLIENT: Nope. Didn't come up once.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Because I feel like I don't know what I mean, I've talked about it. I feel like I've been very articulate. You know? So I don't even know what we're, what I'mYou know, like I just, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to do. (pause) (sigh) And then like, it was kind of a weird birthday too. [00:3:43]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, Mothers Day was my birthday. And I was just like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Got back. I felt pretty tired. You know? I had like one drink with Bethany (ph) during the day. And then at night I had like two beers with two of my Assyrian friends. I don't know. It was just kind of like a blah.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm not a birthday person but, I don't know. It was in keeping, I think, with the way I've been feeling anyway. It was just kind of like, uhhhh.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) It wasn't that celebratory.

CLIENT: Mm. (pause)

THERAPIST: And it was on Mothers Day. [00:04:43]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (sigh) (pause) I just feel frustrated and like (long pause)

THERAPIST: You don't quite know what it is you're feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I don't. I just know that I'm like tired and kind like just out of it. You know? (pause) Yeah. I have no idea what I'm feeling. I don't even know any more.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was like, "Well, am I depressed because I can't get out of bed or something?"

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I was like, well But I don't know if I really am depressed. I think I'm just, I don't know. I don't know. I mean I started freaking. I was like, "Is there something like physically wrong with me?" [00:05:59]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? I was like, I mean I could not, I can't explain it. Like I could not I mean I made it to practice, but it was torture.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like rousing myself and, I mean, that's a really awful feeling. You know? And I was like, "What?" And it's not in keeping with any of this crap. I mean that's been happening to me for quite a while now. You know?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And relatively often.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Maybe like at least once every other week or whatever. I just have these like, I just, something happens. Especially in the afternoon. And I mean I just cannot, it's like I can't move a muscle. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (sigh, pause) So I mean who knows. It's probably, maybe it's like a low grade depression plus anxiety. I don't know. Who the fuck knows. I just It's frustrating. (pause)

THERAPIST: I wonder if all the feelings stirring about the (inaudible at 00:07:19) and possibly breaking up with Kelly (ph), that really happening in a concrete way, it gets you sort of stopped in your tracks because it's terrifying.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: But if you break up with her [you could get hurt again]. (ph)

CLIENT: Mm. Yeah, I think it's that and also that I think I've been Naturally, it's making me think about past relationships.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And so I think I do feel kind of And it was my birthday.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I think it's hitting me that, it's like, "Wow, you know what? Like I'm older." And like somehow I got a girl like Meredith (ph). But I was in my like mid to slightly older thirties. Which is not that long ago. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But, you know, once you hit forty, forty one, then, you know. And now I'm starting to feel weird. Like if I'm attracted to like a twenty five year old. Because in my mind I just don't see myself as that age. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: The age that I am.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But, you know, a twenty five year old very well could if they know how old I am. Or if I, whatever, if I seem that old. Or who knows? [00:08:28]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I think that's depressing me. Just everything. (pause) (loud background noise, sounds like traffic)

THERAPIST: That time has passed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I wondered how your birthday would actually feel for you.

CLIENT: And then little things. Like there's this band who I had just heard of, whatever. I asked them to play a show with us. And they seem like, yeah, they're a good band, but they seem kind of like, I don't know, no big deal or whatever. They're suddenly like on NPR, they're getting all these it's like little things like that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was like, "What? Are you kidding me? You just I can't (laughs) It's like, on the one hand I don't want to see stuff like that, but you can't avoid it. I don't know. It's all these different things at the same time. [00:09:33]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm already feeling like overwhelmed, and so I'm just like, "Ugh. You know what? I can't even " (pause) Like it does make me feel deflated.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? I feel like I'm older. I'm working my ass off trying to get my songs out there. And these other bands just kind of show up. They formed a year ago or some shit. And I don't know. I don't know how it happens. I don't know what happens. But it's just, I don't know what it is.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. That really bums me out. But, I mean, I don't know. (pause) I think the frustration that is that I feel like I'm so tired of not getting something just at least really close to what I want.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think that's making me have a headache and tense up. You know what I'm saying? [00:10:36]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like is it so much to ask for a girl to be kind of thin and not have a kid? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (laughs) You know what I mean? Like these are the [little things.] (ph) These are basic things to me that don't seem like I'm asking for a lot. But it just never happens. You know? And that's a bummer.

THERAPIST: Well, is that all you're asking for? Bethany? (ph)

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Like Bethany? Isn't she thin and doesn't have a kid?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm just saying it sounds like that's not just what you're asking for.

CLIENT: Oh. Well, but it's a start. You know, that would be a nice start. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or, you know, I don't know. I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just very frustrated. (long pause)

THERAPIST: You want something to work out.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: You want something to work out.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Something that's not about like, well at least this girl, like I got this girl. You know what I mean? [00:12:02]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Getting what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah. Being where, no, it's not just that I got some girl. I got something that I've always envisioned that's what I've wanted.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? Instead of just kind of getting caught up in something.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Just because some girl is attracted to me or something.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or it's the same with, you know, with the music. I don't know what I'm supposed to do to I don't know. I don't know if these other bands are paying people a lot of money for like really good PR or what. I don't understand. I really don't.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's really, really frustrating. And the problem is this shit like makes you, obviously, it makes you so tired that you almost kind of give up in a way. It makes you just deflated. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And that's even worse. I hate that feeling. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) This is the you saying, "I just want to hibernate."

CLIENT: Yeah. Kind of. Or, I mean, the healthier says it's the me saying, "I want to change all these things." [00:13:35]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I feel stuck. I want to do something about these things. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I need some, like something's got to kind of Like I need a little -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (clears throat, pause) And then a part of me is like, "Woo, well I'm doing it to myself." I'm taking things too seriously.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like nothing is really wrong. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? Like how lucky that I can even get away without being productive. (ph) You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I don't want to be like whining. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's difficult. Like [I'm the one here] (ph) trying to You can't ignore the way you feel.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I also don't want to be ignoring the fact that things are overall okay. [00:14:44]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And maybe that's why I'm not really depressed.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean I'm doing things, I'm taking care of things, I'm doing my errands.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, I get out of the house. I go to practice. I have a show tonight. You know, whatever. But it's like two things are happening at the same time. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I'm just Something else, like one or two other things have to kind of be shaken up or something.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Something has to give a little bit. I don't know what that is exactly. And I'm trying. You know I wrote to the university.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I reached out to this woman who I talked to before the record came out who is a really good PR. And, you know, I was like, "Look, you know, at the time I couldn't afford it. I still can't afford it, but maybe there is something we can work out." Or, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I'm trying, but it's just -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (pause) And then I'm going through this other period again where these things always coincide. (laughs) I feel like I'm not hearing from certain friends. [00:16:01]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like they're not calling me, they're not texting me, they're not, you know? So it's like a bad timing kind of.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So that makes me sensitive and get kind of like So it makes you feel like more like fucking Sisyphus. You know? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, it's just like rolling up the stupid boulder.

THERAPIST: Yeah, there was something last week you were describing where it does sound like some old place is getting triggered lately. And it isn't actually about what's actually happening.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Not that much has changed about what's actually happening.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But something is starting to feel again, like when you were talking about the organizing that (inaudible at 00:16:48) club and this band had pulled out. This feeling of sort of, [I remember] (ph) something about feeling rejected or all the work it takes to kind of. The feeling of that to get people to stay and love you.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And to make something work out. Or there's something I feel like in the mix about it feels like it's just too much work.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: To have people kind of want to hang around and be interested.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like even the condo, renting your apartment. In a way that was sort of folded in. You know, renting the apartment is hard. Even that sort of falls into, "Nobody wants "

CLIENT: See that's why I try to like stop myself. So I'm like, "Oh that sounds so much like my Mom, or my Mom's side."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Yeah, everything is so fucking difficult. And it's really not.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: These are things people do every day. And people go through, I mean, if this is stress, I don't know. I mean people go through so much.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it is. I think it is just an old thing about just even liking yourself. [00:17:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And just feeling like somehow I'm still not quite in the club. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like, "Yeah, people like my record. But deep down they really like these other records better."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, they like these other cooler records.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I'm just not And I think that a lot of it is that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? A lot of it is that. Or that my friends, if there is a spell where I don't hear from people, it's like they've all decided that, "You know, fuck him." Like, you know? Luckily I'm in a place now where I know -

THERAPIST: You know that's not true?

CLIENT: Yeah. It crosses my mind then I let it go and I'm like, "I can go to Leo's right now and everything is going to be like totally like nothing has happened." (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because they're not like that. They're not sensitive like me about that shit. And that's fine.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But, yeah, all these things get rolled up into that old, old feeling. It's just like it's kind of like this shy kid who hates himself but has so much talent and things to offer.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But just, you know, no help and no attention and all that old stuff. [00:19:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: And unfortunately now with the added feeling of now it's like an older dude looking back.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know it's like all these little weird nuances. You know? And in a way even worse, I don't even feel my age. And that's great. I think that in the long run that serves you well.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But it is weird. Like I do, even when I catch myself, I kind of don't believe it. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I think that's a good thing. I mean that's good. You know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But it's sad too. You know what I mean? It's this weird, what's it called, cognitive dissonance or whatever. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I was out when I had drinks with Bethany (ph), it's not that I felt old, but I did feel, because there are some really cute girls, I mean really, really pretty girls that work there. And so now I kind of know them or whatever. [00:20:21]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So part of it was definitely me being sensitive. Like would I want them to throw themselves at me? Like, you know what I mean? What are they supposed to do?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But then a part of me was like, well, they probably get a sense that you're kind of older and, yeah, you're not like a twenty five year old uber hipster in that circle.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? So they're reacting accordingly kind of. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it's just like, uhhhh. (laughs) It's just -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean? Like I'm in this weird no man's land.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't and I can't be with people that are like thirty seven, thirty eight because I still think of myself as really young.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I might want to have a kid or two or whatever. And yet I can't go for like twenty. I mean I can, but that's not always going to work out the way it used to.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Some of them are going to be like, "Whoa, you're way too old for me." Some of them aren't. Whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I'm just like in this weird, blah. (laughs) And it's not really something to complain about, in a way. I mean, I guess I'm pretty lucky when it comes to all that stuff. [00:21:42]

THERAPIST: Yeah, but I understand what you're saying.

CLIENT: But there's a really Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not about the sex anymore, or about like conquering this or that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's just a fucking normal, I still don't have a normal. Kelly's (ph) close, you know. But it's still not normal, kind of. Like, "Hey, meet me for a walk."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Come over and let's watch some Netflix and make dinner and then go back home. Like it's not, I've never had that. Never, ever have I had that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean that's kind of driving me crazy now. (laughs) You know what I mean? Like now it's like, it's kind of maddening.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's just like I know I'm not fucking Brad Pitt or whatever, but I also know that I've done pretty well. And yet how is that I'm not (laughs) And then I think it's because I'm letting myself kind of You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Oh someone beautiful like Michelle wants to be with me, or Meredith? Now I'm just fucking caught up in this weird -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know what I'm saying? So it's like, "Well, no, no, no wait minute." [00:22:53]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Does she have a stable life?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or at least stable enough where this is going to be -

THERAPIST: What you want?

CLIENT: Yeah, relatively grounded.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? Not living far away or not with a kid or not twenty four and a kid. (laughs) You know? I haven't had that one time. I've had opportunities. And those people I didn't want to date for other reasons. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So it's just, I don't know. I do not know.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: Maybe it's going to all feel better when the Kelly (ph) thing is resolved more. I don't know. (pause) On a kind of related note. The guitar player's company is looking for a new person to do some kind of like technical support something or other. [00:24:02]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And he's going to pass along my resume. It pays like sixty grand a year.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It's a twenty grand bump for me. You know? So in that way, see that's not a depressed person or an insecure person.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I was like, "Dude, I'll do that. I can do that." (laughs) You know what I mean? He's like, "A lot of these guys just have high school diplomas." And I was like, "Well, would you mind if we like worked." And he's like, "No, it would be great to have a friend who works there." You know. He's like, "It's right here, it's good money. You know."

THERAPIST: Mm hm. What is it doing?

CLIENT: I'm not sure. But some kind of technical support something. Something more technical? But not -

THERAPIST: You will not be recording?

CLIENT: No, no, no. He works for some kind of either environmental or acoustics company or some shit.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I don't fucking know. But he was like, "You know, a lot of these guys only have high school diplomas that were doing that job."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He's like, "It's good money. It's technical but it's not rocket science."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: He said, "You know, it's kind of nine to five-ish. It's not really stressful."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Yeah, that means not working at home. But, you know what? Twenty extra grand a year. I'll be fucking retired. I mean that would change a lot of things for me. [00:25:20]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I don't even know if I'm really, you know, if I'll get the job.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But fuck it, that's a great opportunity. That would be a huge If it was just like five grand more or something, you know, I have a really good set up right now.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But twenty grand more a year is (deep breath), you know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean, to me that's life changing.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, that's paying debt off really quickly.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Actually saving some money. Being able to just go travel if I want. You know, like being able to You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Just buy a fucking plane ticket if you want a plane ticket. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Music-wise it would change everything. You know? Being able to pay people to help you. You know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So in that way I know that I'm not cowering in the corner. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I have a show tonight and I'm not even fucking nervous. I don't fucking care. And that's a good feeling. [00:26:26]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? But I think it is that I'm just, because this was such a loaded weekend.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And it's been kind of weird the last few weeks. I think I'm just fucking tired and overly tense. Just with all these things that I feel like I'm constantly making so much effort.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or so wanting certain things to work out that just don't quite work out the way I want them to.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's exhausting. It would be different, I think, if I just kind of didn't care.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think there are so many people that just, if they were in my position, they'd be like frolicking.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: They'd be like, "I work at home but I don't even have a lot of work to do."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like, "I live in this nice little apartment." You know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And they would just kind of just, you know, that would kind of be it. They'd watch their TV and they'd make some plan for the weekend, or go to Target or whatever the fuck. You know? But I think when you're someone who is very driven and wants a certain kind of life and certain things, it's just hard to not be that way. [00:27:40]

THERAPIST: Mm. Well it's in a wave. (ph) You've called this process kind of waking up. And as you wake up to being in your forties and now sensing in some ways for the first time in a very long time at least what you actually start to realize you want.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It's getting married. Getting married to a particular kind of person.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Who doesn't have children. Or what you want in a job and an income and stability and property.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Or in music or in writing. And it sort of feels like there's all of the time now passed that feels like (inaudible at 00:28:29). So you're really not happy with where things are right now.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You want more of a variety of different kinds of things. And it feels really good to know that. It's clear what you want. But then it's also clear that you don't have that.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: In certain arenas. And I think some of that peaks this old feeling of because you're unworthy or something.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: It's always the kind of core bad feelings that start come up. Instead of just well that it's a coincidence, it's the emergence of even knowing for the first time what you want. You couldn't have had it five years ago or ten years ago. You know what you want.

You were chasing after everybody. Getting everybody. But that's different than actually figuring out what you want, what you want for your life. So it's both freeing, but it's very sad too to be awake for the first time. [00:29:26]

CLIENT: Mm hm. (long pause, sigh) Well and then there's also then all of those various things, each one of them takes effort to manifest.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? So that's also just even thinking about that is draining.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it's a lot.

THERAPIST: Another thing you've been working on psychologically is separating from you mother. I think you've been working really, really hard on that. Pulling away from the enmeshment in her claws. Keeping you close. And I think that's been exhausting.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean all of the things you wish you'd been through when you were twenty, when your Dad was still alive. What he might have been. The role he might have played. And allowing some more distance between the two of you. [00:30:55]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And allowing you to individuate more and just be more of yourself. And keep so much more from him than from her.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And now going through this process of separation from Kelly (ph). I mean I think that there are undertones of the relationship with your mother too.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: What it means to be separating. Is this really something you want to chose to do? What do you lose when you do that? Because a lot has been at stake with your Mom. To be yourself. To separate into yourself. You've never been sure she would love that person.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (sighs, deep breaths) [00:31:49]

(very long pause) [00:33:06]

THERAPIST: You were talking on Thursday about what is it when you can walk into a bar and get her to kiss you or show you her tits or go home and sleep with you so easily. And that conversation that [you had with], was it the night before? Happened right on the heels of deciding, and sounding so clear, that you wanted to break up with Kelly. In a really kind of, you just sounded clear.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And like coming into an awake realization about that. And yet then you go back to this familiar, and I think safer place of getting that.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Going back to getting no separation.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: There is a [behavior] (ph) or something about that. How that dance happens.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: A seductiveness, or whatever you want to call it, that is like getting her to be fused with you again. And the relief of that that she's yours. It's sort of almost a guaranteed thing in the way you were describing it. That you don't have to deal with being separate and being rejected. [00:34:19]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Rejecting her. All these painful feelings that come up with your mother about separateness.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: How separateness hurts your mother and hurts you.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause)

THERAPIST: You were feeling so guilty about saying, "I don't want to go away for the weekend to Maine because I'm not sure I really want to be in this relationship anymore." You were so, so worried about her.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And you've probably always been picking up on something that your mother would have been projecting (ph) by complying with her.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And kind of being it and taking it and pushing it under the rug. "Sure, Mom. Yes, Mom." Until you lose it one day.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Which is not what you're doing yet. But that she gets hurt too when you try to be yourself.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: So you have done a lot to protect, placate and cow tow. Keep her ego, basically. [00:35:20]

CLIENT: (pause, sigh)

THERAPIST: It's a mouthful.

CLIENT: I know. Clusterfuck. (long pause, deep breathing sounds) Yeah. Then maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's why I'm not really depressed, but I feel exhausted. I think that's probably what it is. It's the process of all these separations and all this individuating, or whatever you call it. That I know it's happening and it's going to happen. [00:36:36]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So in a way that's a good feeling. But I think, yeah, I think it's exhausting and confusing and kind of sad too. But I guess that's what's going on.

THERAPIST: Well there can be moments, like Wednesday when you were here, where it feels like, "Of course, I need to do this."

CLIENT: Right, right. Much clearer. Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's just as [good for me]. (ph) And it can feel like a Right. And this is me being myself for the first time in my life. And not being so worried about another person. But then I could imagine that other things start to descend about that in relation to your mother and what you've done to protect her that feel like, "Wait, I can't do that. That would hurt her."

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: "What if I lose out?" You know, you needed your mother as a child. So you had to protect her to keep her around and loving you.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: All those feelings of, "Do you need this person for survival?" descend. And they make you not so sure you want to get out yet.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Or, "What if there is not going to be someone else?" Like I know you, rationally, you know there's going to be another renter in your apartment. But that can trigger that kind of feeling. "Ahh, there's not going to be another person." [00:37:52]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I should take what I could get. A person in the band packing up.

(very long pause) [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: I also wondered if you had thoughts and feelings that come up, as you were saying, this technical job, nine to five. What that would mean for you here.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's the only thing. I did think about that. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You did.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Yeah. Definitely. Even as I was telling Stu, as I was kind of like, "Oh wow, that would be " Then I was like, "Oh no." (laughs) My whole schedule would be, I don't know what would happen there.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause) But I guess, I mean, I didn't really think about too much.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I was probably like, "Well, I'm sure we'll figure something." I mean, people's jobs change and whatever. You know? But, yeah, it would definitely take away the kind of more leisurely -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: The thing I thought more than just like, "What will our schedule " Not even the schedule, but I think it crossed my mind that it is really nice that [00:40:08]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I think the reason this has been progressing so quickly is that I'm not coming here during my lunch break.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or rushing here after work or before work and then it's a whole -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I'm really able to It marinates.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And sometimes that sucks because it's drama (ph). But I think that's the process. You know? So I'm able to leave here and just go home if I want and just kind of, just be. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or just go for a drive, or just go sit in a coffee shop or whatever. I think that's very helpful. You know? That's a luxury, I think.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: So in that way it feels more like So, yeah, so that's the thing I was more You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. So you didn't assume it would mean separation.

CLIENT: Separation?

THERAPIST: Separating.

CLIENT: No, no, no, no.

THERAPIST: Hm.

(pause)

CLIENT: In a way it would be a separation from this job. [00:41:21]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's just so safe.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That it would be like, what if I went there, what if I got the job and then it kind of didn't work out?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: What if I don't pick up all the technical stuff quite the way they want me to? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Then I'd be fucked.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then I'd be fucked. You know? And that's probably connected to that one time I got laid off.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: From a high tech start up.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It's the only time I ever lost a job like that. So maybe that's, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: I was just wondering, where did that come from that you'd be fucked?

CLIENT: Because it happens. I mean it happens. You know? Especially if it's kind of technical or something.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And, I don't know, shit happens. Or just with the company, or I don't know. Shit happens.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: This is so just like clockwork.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know that, you know. (laughs) A part of me though is even like, if I was an asshole, I wouldn't even have to tell them. [00:42:27]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: If I was really a douche, I wouldn't have to tell them. I barely ever see them.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (laughs) You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I could even do both for a while until I see what the deal is.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean, and then you're talking suddenly (laughs) one hundred grand a year. (sound of clapping)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: No, I mean I wouldn't do that. But part of me was like, "Yeah, fuck it. Yeah."

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:42:53) protect here.

CLIENT: Yeah, I would overlap it and just -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because the fact is anything I do for them I can do in a few hours at night or over the weekend.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's really not, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm. Would they ever give you a raise?

CLIENT: They might. But, I mean, not twenty grand.

THERAPIST: It's not (inaudible at 00:43:20)

CLIENT: No. I've thought about that too. I've thought, "You know, am I really making, for someone of my education that "

THERAPIST: Or just even years at the company.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think what it is, is I don't want to, this is so ridiculous, the situation, I don't want to draw any attention to it. To be honest. I mean forty two grand a year to do what? What am I doing exactly?

THERAPIST: Yeah, making that much. Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm not really doing anything. So with benefits and all that I feel like you can't mess with that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Especially because they were going to pay me twenty eight. And I don't remember what happened but then she e-mailed me and she was like, "You know, I talked and we can actually pay you forty." So I was like, that was already nice. So I was like, "You know what? I can't mess with this." You know?

And plus whatever raise. What are they going to give me? Like three grand more a year or whatever? I mean that's nice, but I don't think it's worth I don't want them to think about the situation. (laughs) [00:44:25]

THERAPIST: (laughs) Mm hm. (pause) So tomorrow?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Just to remind you that this Friday we're going to meet at eleven thirty.

CLIENT: Yup. Yup. (sounds of pages turning)

THERAPIST: I don't know if that was on that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Does that still work?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. No it totally does. No, I'm trying to remember where I put that piece of paper. But it's at home.

THERAPIST: I can write it down again. Tomorrow is at twelve thirty (ph) as usual.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: This Friday eleven thirty.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Next week we just have Wednesday, Thursday. I'm out Friday.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks Abby.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See you tomorrow.

END TRANSCRIPT