TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Well, I feel a lot better; mostly because Kelly didn't come to the show last night. Suddenly that changed everything. So, I didn't have to fake it or feel pressure, or-it was an amazing show! People said it was like, I don't know, like they're getting better and better. It was awesome! It was a really fun time. I felt good. All the new songs; I remembered all the lyrics. I felt comfortable. I couldn't even hear myself singing, but somehow I guess it sounded great. The energy was all good. [00:01:16]

THERAPIST: And it was a relief she wasn't there?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, 'cause it's just all these things are just ways of dragging things out, I feel like. I think, maybe-I think she would have come. I think she gets that sense that this isn't working out. I've also been-I haven't been really texting. We're not really texting much and stuff. I think now I won't feel so bad if I just e-mail her because I've already explained everything, so I feel that it's just naturally kind of ending, kind of? Although I'm sure that she's going to be sore and upset with me. I'm sure. She probably already is. It must be the right thing to do because I feel a lot better-at least, for right now. [00:02:21]

THERAPIST: You said, specifically, that you felt relieved about not having to "fake it".

CLIENT: Just, yeah. It sucks to not be able to have sex. That doesn't really like happen to me, really. Well, especially in this kind of way, where I'm almost like repulsed or something. I don't want to feel that way. She's a beautiful girl. It's not fair to her and it feels weird to me. I don't want to go through all that; especially, because we haven't talked about it like the whole weekend. And I mean, like what are we doing? We're getting together and we're not discussing something kind of important, you know? Mostly because I think there's nothing to say. She's going to say the same things, right? She's going to say, "Well, yeah, I mean, I'm not saying never, but..." You know what I mean? Then, what am I going to say? "Well, yeah, right now you don't want a kid. I don't see why that would change a year from now when you're 38, 39." You know. So, yeah it was a relief. [00:03:31]

(10 second pause)

I got an e-mail back from the school in Assyria! I told you, right, that one good friend of mine, and a good acquaintance-they're both Deans there? So, my friend Seth (sp?) he's a good friend of mine. We've known each other since we were like 15 or something. He's pretty scientifically minded, like genius-like; did his Ph.D. in robotics and stuff, so he's the Dean of the Engineering school in Assyria. So, he's like, "Yeah, send me more detail about what exactly you want to do, like duration..." and this and that, "and I'll definitely pass it along and talk to them." So, we'll see. [00:04:33]

(11 second pause)

THERAPIST: Pedro (sp?), is that also, you have this show that goes really well, and you hear back.

CLIENT: I think what it is, is it's what I was saying, right; that one thing. This is where I want to be. Unless I'm so madly in love and we're on the same page and we-you know what I mean? That's different, but other than that, I'd rather just hang out with Bethany (sp?) or people. Just meet chicks, or whatever, or not meet them. I don't fucking care. But this, I like this. You know what I mean? I suddenly feel-alright, I'm just living my life. Everything else is okay, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I feel very light. Much lighter. [00:05:30]

[To tell you] (ph), the stupid thing I did, was I had McDonald's after the show, because I was hungry and I was kind of like celebrating. (whisper "It's okay.") (client exhales deeply/yawns and pauses for 9 seconds)

THERAPIST: You say that as though you're convincing...

CLIENT: Well, I always kind of hated the late night Mickey D's run. I know better than that, but I was hungry and I was like, "Eh, fuck it." It was a great show, and I was sweaty and hungry and so (ph) it was great. It tasted great. [00:06:11])

(16 second pause)

I don't want to get too one end to the other. I'm sure that next week, or the week after or something it's going to suck, but-The thing about Kelly is she's awesome! But I guess why I feel lighter is I like that it's dying down without further confrontation or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, maybe she's kind of thought about it or-I mean she feels it (ph) I'm sure. I mean you take her boyfriend away for his birthday, and he's unable to have sex with you. It's, I'm sure... (8 second pause) But I guess I just feel maybe she won't-I don't know. Maybe we can salvage some kind of something, you know? I don't know. [00:07:40]

Then, I'm like, well, I'm still going to feel kind of douchey (sp) if I just e-mail her. You know what I mean? I almost feel like we had "the talk" already. We had "the talk" without me just being clear, in the end, about what-So I feel like, I just. I'm just going to be like, "If you want to call me, of course, we can talk or whatever." It's hard enough as it is and I just you know.

(15 second pause, long exhalation & yawn) So, yeah...

(23 second pause) [00:08:43]

THERAPIST: I wonder if some of your relief is like getting space from your mother. [There's just some-] (ph 00:8:52)

CLIENT: Yeah, I was thinking about what you said, because I was like why was I sober (ph)? Like I was literally disgusted when she was trying to kiss me and shit. It gives me the shivers to connect the two. I think there was something. Like I felt, like I was being molested or something. You know what I mean? It was weird. It was really weird. I guess because, yes, it's just timing wise. They're so conflated, I guess. And maybe because she is a mom. You know what I mean? Like, she's very-there's something. I don't know what it was, but that really did not feel good at all. It was really disturbing to me. [00:09:40]

THERAPIST: Well, even, just-it didn't used to feel that way with her, right?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Even just you've reached a point inside yourself where you didn't really want to be having sex with her.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And still were feeling like you had to.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's an awful place to be. (crosstalk with therapist. Therapist inaudible at [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Some boundaries. Again, not that she's making you do it, but there's something you're feeling yourself pressured into.

CLIENT: It's just so intimate. She's like sticking her tongue in my mouth and I was like, literally, I was like-Yeah, it was bad. That was bad. Yeah, no, I don't ever want to experience that again. And the weird thing is I've never experienced that. That was weird. [00:10:22]

I was even trying to objectify her. Like, I was like, "Dude, just fuck her." You know what I mean? Like, other-We don't have that dynamic. It's not that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, (inaudible at [00:10:33]) it's relationship.

CLIENT: I was like, it's not working at all.

THERAPIST: I mean it is reminiscent, rather than just coincident, there's something that is like your mothering smothering with this (ph). The too-muchness of in your business, or meddling with your health, or...

CLIENT: Or, I'm just finding myself in this situation and now it's just kind of-

THERAPIST: Sort of having to comply with it.

CLIENT: And getting caught in a current on the beach or something, you know.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes. And not wanting it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

At first I was like, oh, it's just 'cause for some reason now I'm really focused on the fact that she's slightly more voluptuous, but I've had sex with voluptuous...you know. That level of repulsion has nothing to do with that. She's a very pretty girl. Very pretty. [00:11:37]

I think-I'm grateful in a way that she didn't come yesterday. You know. It would just-having her stay over. It wasn't going to be good.

THERAPIST: No! Sounds (ph) like it would be awful to you. And the relief of feeling, "Okay, I don't have to do something I don't want to do."

CLIENT: Yeah, I just want to come home, have a snack and fucking be with Cecelia. And just savor a great show. And then hang out with Bethany (sp) this morning. And that was totally fun. She had her iced coffee and flirted and talked and... And I she even sensed it today. I was so comfortable around her. I'd feel wound up before, because it's like Kelly's in the back of my mind and I'm like holding this girl's hand and we kind of like hug, or we-It's like, what's up? What are we in high school? So, it felt very comfortable today. It's really good. [00:12:55]

Other than the window thing. But even that, it's like whatever. It's not really bothering me.

(13 second pause client is clearing throat and drumming hands on something) [00:13:04]

Yeah, the show was really good. The drummer sounded better. We've got to work on the bass player. That's minor. That's only people that are so musically inclined they can pick up on certain rhythmical fucking things. But, I'm psyched. I'm just so psyched.

(11 second pause) [00:13:38]

It felt good to-It's so different now than my first band. I'm just very free when we perform. You know, sweaty and shit. I emote. I kind of dance. I gesticulate and stuff, but in a very natural way; not I'm not trying to be-It's just...

THERAPIST: Freer.

CLIENT: Yeah. Organically, it just happens. I'm not trying to, you know, it's not a poser kind of thing. It's awesome. It feels great. It's really great. [00:14:23]

(17 second pause)

THERAPIST: You were saying, last week, sort of in this state of feeling more, depressed is too strong of a word, (inaudible at 00:14:50) not depressed but kind of wanting to hibernate, wanting to withdraw.

CLIENT: Just really tense, anxious. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You would say words like, "I just want to be left alone." You even said, "Maybe I won't do the show. Everybody will leave me alone." There's a way, I wonder if what was getting put out with Kelly that is like something with your mother, sort of generalized to everything and that's the source of that feeling of wanting to withdraw from everything. [00:15:15]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think we were saying that yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. Because once I went to practice Wednesday, it was great. I think-that's what I don't want to do anymore. That's stuff just like terror (ph). It's distracting-big time distracting-and it's exhausting. Like, mentally, I just can't. I know myself now. Better and better, you know what I mean? It's either the real deal, so I don't care if I see her everyday because it's what I want, or it's just a good time and there's none of this, "Well, I'm just suddenly in it and I've deloathed (ph) she's not as thin as I want, so I have to ignore that." She has a kid, I have to ignore that. She doesn't want a kid, I have to-No. Just someone more or less who's closer to what I want and then just take it from there. No more getting caught up in things that are just-

And you really realize that more when everything else is good. In the past, things would get overlapped. Is this that I hate Brown and everything's fucked up? Or is it Samantha (ph)? Or, whatever, something. Money, or something? But, now it's like everything else I'm very content. It's just that I keep getting exhausted by these, you know. [00:16:50]

THERAPIST: And when you get into something where you're feeling trapped again like trauma (ph)...

CLIENT: Trapped or projecting or moving too quickly. I think Kelly was the last of the Mohicans, hopefully, in that way hopefully. It was the healthiest thing I've had, but it was still initially-I was the one that got too serious in retrospect. Just after a month or whatever it was. I didn't tell her I loved her, but didn't want to see other people and this. And I could have just not done any of that and kept it, you know. So, that's the final kind of, now I know. [00:17:39]

THERAPIST: And also, [are tacks] (ph) new for you. There's a lining (ph) I heard you say as clearly as you had in the past two weeks, that you'd want to get married and have children. Maybe not definitively, but that you might want to have that be a possibility.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Again, it's not that you haven't alluded to that. There's something where you've just, you sounded clearer about the past (ph). [00:18:00]

CLIENT: And it feels concrete. It's not some fantasy or something.

THERAPIST: Right. You're actually picturing what that would look like and what that takes. And so it suddenly is even when you started dating Kelly, I don't think that was as concretely obvious to you about yourself.

CLIENT: Not at all. Not at all.

THERAPIST: So you wouldn't have known that.

CLIENT: And I tried to tell her. Explain that to her, too. I'm working out so much shit here and it's happening so fast. That's a big factor in what's going on. It's a bit of a bummer, but it's also not. It's better to...

THERAPIST: It's better to know what you want than...

CLIENT: Nip it in the bud. That way we don't hate each other or, you know. And it is different. I guess that's a better way of saying it. So, what I'm saying now is like it's either going to be someone that I can envision possibly that life marriage, etc., and if it's not; I mean, you kind of know that shit relatively soon. Relatively. If it's not, then I don't care. But none of this... [00:19:14]

THERAPIST: But it'll get in a different category, when you're relating (ph).

CLIENT: Exactly. There's not that gray middle category that just sucks. It's either just casual fun or it is something that I'm going to invest in, but it's kind of what I want instead of just someone I'm suddenly caught up with.

(21 second pause client clears throat, drums on surface of something)

Yeah, this was a big lesson. Especially these last...because I mean. You can tell, right? I mean, I feel totally different today. You know. [It's like I don't want to have two, you know...] (ph) [00:19:57] My neck (ph) doesn't feel so shitty. I slept pretty well. I felt good when I woke up, you know.

THERAPIST: I think what's still [inaudible phrase at 00:20:14] so bad is you're saying if she were there last night you would have gone back to be together somehow.

CLIENT: Well, it just would have been [inaudible phrase 00:20:24] and then it would have been like, "Okay, now I've got to wait another week to let this play..." You know what I mean? We just keep...tentatively I was supposed to go there Saturday to kind of... We're not doing that. I'm just going to be like, "Look. This is really hard. If nothing else we've got to take a break. Everything else is-Yeah, it is great. We get along so well. Everything's awesome, but something is not... Not something, but these things we've talked about, there's something kind of not clicking."

THERAPIST: Or maybe, how you feel about her. If you can say that.

CLIENT: And now I won't feel so bad because I think now she totally sees it coming. We've talked about it in a good but romantically weird weekend. We haven't been texting that much. She didn't come to the show.

THERAPIST: It's not surprising.

CLIENT: Yeah, she hasn't asked me today how the show went. So it's definitely-there's a drifting, there's a pulling away.

(39 second pause. Deep inhalation & exhalation.) [00:20:41]

It feels good to be laser focused more. Like last night at the show, I could tell people-luckily this has always been the case when I've played music; with my first band. People really stop and focus; like they fucking listen. You know what I mean? Whatever it is about it, like, just they-That's a great feeling. That's an excellent feeling. But, I think part of that is because I just feel-I mean, even it was happening before Kelly I think. The lyrics have gotten so, so better. And like, just everything. There's something. You know. So, it feels good now to be like, alright. I'm going to marry somebody. Have more space [audio file breaks up at 00:23:22]

[00:24:55] (audio picks back up)

CLIENT: ...And you know what? Even though I'm all about sex or whatever in the past, I just don't want to have sex with this person or with anybody, let's say, whatever. You know, I've never done that. It's kind of crazy. I was parked and then Kelly's (ph) [00:25:12] like "What?" I don't think I've ever just not felt bad and just done what I want to do.

THERAPIST: [inaudible due to traffic noise at 00:25:20]

CLIENT: Yeah.

(pause/background traffic noise)

THERAPIST: Being grounded in the center of your own agency (ph) [00:25:37]and desire and...

CLIENT: Yeah. Kind of prioritizing differently. You know what I mean? I might hurt Tricia's feelings, or Molly's feelings, or Mom's feelings, or my Uncle's feelings. Who the fuck cares? I mean. It's way too much on that side of the spectrum. You don't want to hurt people's feelings, but if you already know you're not an asshole to people. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm a good person to people, so, to focus that much on what's she going to think, or what are they going to say, or uuggh. It's exhausting. [00:26:20]

THERAPIST: [And have level] (ph) [00:26:24] has it sent clearer to bubbling to the surface with clarities, how guilty you've felt. I mean how much you're worried about not hurting the other person.

CLIENT: Not hurting, and also getting validation from everywhere. It's like, okay, well, now I'm going to Brown so that's something, right? Or whatever. Now it's like-

(14 second pause) [00:26:55]

THERAPIST: Maybe being motivated by what other people want, including if it's to want to date you, then the feeling that you must then do that, instead of "Wait, I don't want to do that." And you might be mad or sad.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: Or whether they'll like where you go to school, what you do for a living.

[Pause]

THERAPIST: [That alone would be no] (ph) [00:30:03] to tolerate uncertainty (ph) and just...

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's like well, no, part of it is now-I mean it's not like, "Okay, well that's great!" Things go up and down and-

Yeah, it's still the process of getting used to, kind of a very different kind of life.

(20 second pause at 00:30:31)

I would be very curious if the itch I have here goes away, too. That will be the true sign. I haven't scratched it yet today, so that's good.

(10 second pause)

THERAPIST: Like an allergic reaction to her.

CLIENT: I think just stress, tension, it seems to be the case. I had like a really bad itch all over my shin that I kept scratching. [00:31:33]

THERAPIST: That may be a layer of what's next. Sometimes you pulled (ph) something that could get more specific into the more general. And I wonder if it feels safer the more general like, I say, "You get an allergic reaction to her; which could be wrong, but it's something to really concrete fantasy about this itch. You say, "Yeah, it's just stress and tension." It sort of brings it up to the surface one more ota (ph) than-and who knows what it is, but I think-

CLIENT: It could be to her; feeling more extricated from my mom. Yeah, it could very well be. Yeah, because if you're not expressing things or just being clear, like, "Look, this is what I want-not that," or whatever, then it's almost like you're just kind of gnawing at yourself.

THERAPIST: Like a separation anxiety, almost. And that stress was a specific stress, a specific kind of anxiety. [00:32:52]

CLIENT: (31 second long pause)

THERAPIST: Have you had that before? [00:33:24]

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Your rash, like, this kind of reaction?

CLIENT: Well, yeah, I was saying in London I had one. That was the first time I got something like that. Gee, that was on my thigh, too. I think it was on my shin, maybe. And I think like six or eight months ago, I had one like here or here, I don't remember. It's happened a number of times; a number of times.

THERAPIST: It's red? Does it look like hives?

CLIENT: I don't know what it is? I've tried to look. It definitely looks a little bit red when I scratch it, but it's almost like there's nothing there. I make it start bleeding, because I'm scratching it so much. But, yeah no, aren't hives like welts or something?

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it's puffy.

CLIENT: I don't think it's real puffy, no. I mean, it could be like eczema, too, I don't know. Some people say can also have stress you know. Because sometimes I feel like my face gets flushed, which always bothered me a little bit and that's been happening for the last, at this point, maybe like 10 years or so. So, maybe it's just-you know-I don't know. Or it's all combined, I don't know. Those specific itches, have been only a year or two, I started getting those. [00:34:52]

THERAPIST: Not as a kid.

CLIENT: No. Not even as an adult, up until... Maybe because I don't have anxiety attacks now, like that's, who knows. Yeah, I think it's just a combination of different things. Yeah, I think the stress-I mean it probably has a lot to do with it. If there are moments where I feel either I'm not more in control as I should be about what's happening in my life, or you know, something like that. [00:35:34]

THERAPIST: [Perhaps just thinking that is it] (ph) [00:35:42] What's an itch? It's like a need that has to be scratched and there's this need (inaudible due to traffic noise) that's happening or that has been happening. It's been hard for you to just go; allowed to get taken care of.

CLIENT: I mean, in a way, if it was hives or something like that, isn't that itchy all the time? Do you know what I mean? Why does it only itch in the evenings, kind of. You know what I mean, like especially in bed. Lately, this one, there will be like one intense scratch session where I just cannot control how itchy it is; and I put some itch lotion on it, like Gold Bond or whatever. It's like, well, that's kind of odd. Like, I'm wearing jeans right now that are not very baggy. Shouldn't it be driving me crazy? It's not. Or at the show last night, I was sweaty and it was hot in there. I didn't itch at all. You know what I mean, I think there's something. And I look at it, I mean, I guess it's kind of red, but it's red because I'm scratching it. I feel-

(LOST AUDIO FROM 00:37:04 UNTIL 00:38:42)

CLIENT: (picking up where audio resumes during a long pause by client)

THERAPIST: What are you thinking? [00:39:04]

CLIENT: I was thinking about Bethany and I was thinking, see it feels good to be like-if we took it to the next level, I already know. I already see clearly. As much as I like her, I wouldn't go in the direction I usually go in, do you know what I mean? I wouldn't care if she sees other people. It's just not-unless somehow it organically becomes something, then I you know.

THERAPIST: It's not [do you know?] (ph) (00:39:44]

CLIENT: I don't have that feeling of like she has to like me. I just kind of don't care kind of thing. I don't know how to explain it, but just a much more mature grounded feeling than she has to give me all her attention and be into me.

THERAPIST: She doesn't feel like someone who you want to see if it could be long-term?

CLIENT: Well, I guess what I'm saying is that should happen of its own volition, do you know what I mean? In the past, I've tried to make those things happen in a very blind way. I've made them get serious because I want that security, like, "Don't like other guys. It's about me." And now, I don't see it that way. If it's going to happen, then it'll be much more serious. It just will, I think. I think. [00:40:45]

As you hang out with someone, you suddenly find yourself-I think what I'm saying is I get my motives now, better. I can stop myself and say, "No, you know what? I don't need to seriously date Bethany (sp). I just need to hang out with her." I don't feel the need to-Which is what I would have done with Kelly if I'd have met Kelly now. I don't know if it would have worked or not, but I would have known, that nope, I can't suddenly be like, "We're not going to see other people." I kind of do want to see other people. I'm saying that because I don't want to-you know what I mean? It's like she might see other people and then she might reject me, because there are other better guys. You know, it's this deep down, it's still this kind of-it doesn't work that way. That's something way down the line, when it just organically becomes something awesome, then you already won't see other people anyway, because you don't want to. [00:41:50]

THERAPIST: I wonder, with Bethany (sp), even if you know it's sort of in a different place of pulling off and pushing you there (ph), do you have a sense when you look at her that you would be interested in that if it went there? You know, we're talking about sort of not getting into things that (inaudible cross talk) a kid.

CLIENT: I'd be open to it with Bethany (sp).

THERAPIST: You would?

CLIENT: But, in a very different way. Open to it in terms of just seeing what happens.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I hear that. In other words, she feels like she fits the bill for (ph) something. [00:42:34]

CLIENT: Yeah, I'd be open to it. She's way closer, yeah. Although, the weird thing is she has some slightly hippie-ish tendencies; well, in my mind. She's different. There's some things that are a little different about her, but there are a lot of things that she's in that ballpark.

(32 second pause)

THERAPIST: Are you okay? [00:43:28]

CLIENT: Yeah, why? What happened?

THERAPIST: Your face just changed. Whatever you were thinking about.

CLIENT: Oh, I was just looking at my fingers. That's funny.

THERAPIST: Not thinking anything? You had to have been thinking something.

CLIENT: No. Now I want to know what my face was like.

THERAPIST: It just got more serious and (inaudible at 00:43:50 crosstalk).

CLIENT: Really? Wow. (sniff, exhalation, drumming 41 second pause until [00:44:34])

I think that's the next thing that will happen. Is that, which we've talked about before. The thing I do feel now is I definitely feel that. I mean, it's very mild anxiety, compared to, you know. But, is that feeling of wow! I feel like inside my head now it's like the Midwest. It's like fucking open prairies. That's just crazy. It's like wow! Like, when I try to stop and like, "What am I thinking about right now?" I'm usually not thinking. Not usually. A lot of the time I'm not really thinking anything particularly bad or negative about anxiety. That's weird. [00:45:18]

THERAPIST: And when those things are then bulls (ph) in your mind, it can feel like if you take the bulls (ph) away there's nothing left?

CLIENT: Yeah. There's nothing left and it feels a little bit...

THERAPIST: Feels a little what?

CLIENT: Makes me a little nervous, or a little edgy or something.

THERAPIST: They're familiar. That's safe, you know. You know how to think about bulls (ph).

CLIENT: I am a bull (ph). May 12th.

THERAPIST: (chuckle)

CLIENT: Yeah, it's weird. Not so much when I leave here. I'm talking about here. When I'm not here, it's awesome because I just kind of-Yesterday, when I left here I got a shit-load of errands done. And what felt good was I remembered things. Sometimes I talk about being scattered brained. I was just like, cool, I need this, I need that. I went to Target. I washed my car. That wasn't really thinking, per se. But in here, definitely feel it. [00:46:34]

THERAPIST: There's been so much pressure to not having your own thoughts and mind in your family. Persecution; paranoia; criticism; judgment. I think it's really new to imagine you could just have whatever comes up in your mind is that that's what's on your mind. That's the next layer of getting to know you. What are you thinking?

CLIENT: It's the difference between your own mind and a collective bullying cacophonous mind. [00:47:17]

THERAPIST: Yes, yes. Everyone else's mind's beating you up. So, what are you thinking? That's why I say, "What were you thinking?" You say, "Nothing." I think actually over time you'll find more that there are thoughts. Even if it's a fleeting, something random, something weird, something silly, something that feels like it's not connected to anything, but it will be something. It actually is connected to things if you get to know it and it's part of your mind. That's getting to know who you are. [00:47:48]

CLIENT: That's true. There are probably times when I don't say what I'mwell, I don't know what I'm thinking sometimes. Or even if I did, I wonder if I-Like, "No, no, that's silly." You know what I mean? I'm so used to because things should be...

THERAPIST: The judges.

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: (whispered) Tomorrow.

CLIENT: 11:30?

THERAPIST: 11:30

END TRANSCRIPT