TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Sorry for my little bit of my really cold apartment right now.

THERAPIST: You what?

CLIENT: My apartment is really cold.

THERAPIST: It's really cold, yeah.

CLIENT: So, yeah, we just like comforters.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:23) gone to the jacket yet, but that's mostly just because he doesn't want to (chuckles) [stick inside] the jacket hooks more than anything.

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: So last night my parents gave me — so my dad called last night, which he doesn't call people on the phone, ever. I don't really know why.

[00:01:01]

But he basically will not initiate a phone call, even to his two sisters [or to anyone]. So when he called, I was like oh, either someone is dead or he's planning a surprise for my mom. But I was pretty sure it was going to be bad news. His news was that he has a very slow-progressing prostate tumor. Caught it very early, it was like stage one, and the surgeon was like "We don't do surgery for this, but basically 10 years out, 95 percent of people are still alive so, you know, keep on watching it. Carry on."

THERAPIST: Right. I'm sorry to hear that.

CLIENT: Yeah, so am I. Like my first thought was I really hate that my dad only calls when he has bad news.

[00:02:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which, yeah, like — I'm really glad he told me and didn't decide to, you know, not worry me. (pause) But it's also like, it's definitely scary that my dad's health is just not as good as my mom's, at all. My mom is just healthy as a horse, constantly. And my dad is like well, you know, he can't drop a lot of weight, he has uncontrolled diabetes and then his high blood pressure and kidney problems and, you know, cholesterol like every — it's sort of like a series of — [they're all] relatively normal except that he's a little young to be having all of them.

[00:03:13]

THERAPIST: How old is he?

CLIENT: That is a good question. Like — now, like he must be 65-ish. (pause) Yeah. But maybe it just feels like he's too young for it, maybe.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I mean, after Sam and Jersey died, everyone — I think all of us were really worried about cancer in general. My Aunt Dana decided that she didn't want to know, so she didn't want to talk to her doctor about it.

THERAPIST: Didn't want to know —

CLIENT: If she had cancer. She didn't want to look to see if she like — she didn't want her doctor to like — basically she's like "If I have cancer, I don't want to know" which was weird.

[00:04:16]

Like I know [she's been] to the doctor but — so that was like her initial state, and we're all like "Okay, I don't know what to do." And so my dad went to the doctor, and they checked him for I think both kinds of cancer that they had. I guess now they've also been checking for other things. (pause) It's also like — (pause) Like my dad — the conversation was — it didn't have a lot of — it didn't really have an emotional content, if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: He told me, and he sort of had a "whatever" spiel in his head about what he was going to say.

[00:05:11]

It felt like he was discussing like the car, when their car was having problems, that it would be okay or like "Yeah, the roof in the house is a little leaky, but whatever."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Which — (pause) I really hate that I can't talk to him about it.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Like I don't even know what I want to talk about necessarily but — (pause) I mean, he's so preemptively closed off.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I would imagine some of things you want to talk to him about are how both you and he feel about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, because I don't have a good sense of it.

[00:06:07]

Or he has no sense of how he feels, and I feel kind of upset and scared and worried.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: Which he doesn't want me to be. He offered to send me some literature that he had about why I shouldn't be worried. She already — I guess he had told Will and Tricia when they were there for Thanksgiving and I guess given it to them in person. (pause) So I'm thinking of calling my brother. (pause) I just hate having to have like a proxy conversation with him. (pause)

[00:07:04]

I mean there's that and just — (pause) I don't know. My parents are so weird talking about their own health and just really — (pause) I mean, they say they don't want us to be worried and all those other things because, you know, we have to concentrate on work and like the family or whatever. But [it's not optional] (pause) or even really feasible. Like how are we not supposed to be worried?

[00:08:02]

We kind of — my brother and I kind of — like a while ago, my dad told us like a week after he'd had some minor surgical procedure that he'd had this procedure.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And we both flipped out and were like "You really have to tell us in advance. Holy shit, why did you do that?" So since then, I've been very suspicious of them and also knowing that, you know, neither of them will offer information before — I don't know. Like I'm not surprised they didn't say — that they waited until after they'd seen several specialists to say anything.

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:09:02]

CLIENT: Because they kind of want to be definitive but — (pause) And it's also very — it's weird to think that — I mean, my mom will discuss this very baldly, like my mom will almost definitely outlive my dad.

THERAPIST: Definitely outlive your dad? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. It seems pretty likely. (pause) And when I was younger, it was kind of like, you know, my mom is super healthy and dad isn't as healthy. Well, you know, at some point in the distant future, I guess my mom will outlive my father. But now I'm like, the distant future seems kind of close. (pause)

[00:10:04]

And I also — (pause) Like I'm worried not only for myself but how I'm going to feel about [when my father dies] and also my mom's [probable determination] to not have emotions is probably going to cause an enormous fight of some kind. (pause) Like what I was thinking about the other night was sort of like my mom getting really angry at myself and my brother for being upset.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And [to see she was fine] and then like becoming the world's most intense grandmother or something like that.

[00:11:02]

Or just sort of casually being like "I think I need to move closer to one of you by accident. No reason." Which obviously I don't want. She isn't moving — would not return to Sweden. She's been very clear about that.

THERAPIST: Because of you guys?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the only reason. (pause) (inaudible at 00:11:39) but even so, I don't — she might go for a long visit, but that's about it. (pause)

[00:12:03]

I mean, it's hard also that I talked to my dad, and I also told him that he should call me. Because when I first answered the phone, I said "Hi mom" and then it was my dad.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And you know, made it a joke and then he told me, you know, about his health and then pretty much immediately it was like "Talk to your mom." And my mom did not mention like my dad just talked to me about something. Like she sort of —

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Like it didn't happen.

CLIENT: Didn't happen. She launched immediately into Thanksgiving and [being forced] to go to two different movies.

[00:13:00]

And my mom was really pissed that my brother and dad were too slow on Friday to leave early enough. And then Saturday my brother spent too much time hanging out with one of his friends, and my mom was really annoyed about that, even though this particular friend is someone my brother — because he's known him for a very long time, and they were both in the same psych ward, like where my parents lived at one point.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because he had tried to kill himself and changed his mind, but when you jump off a building, it's too late.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. So then my mom was like "You should totally talk to him." I was really surprised that she, you know, wasn't mad at him for talking to but hanging out with his friends.

[00:14:08]

Also I'm just like, Jesus Christ — like he only sees them maybe twice a year.

THERAPIST: [So you're kind of like looking at a little bit of the show] versus talking about how I guess kind of off-the-wall your parents are being about this, [in a way they kind of expectedly would be], but which it sounds like is really upsetting for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it reinforces me feeling upset that I had a good time at Thanksgiving without them and didn't really think —

[00:15:08]

I wasn't like "Oh, I really should be with my parents right now" at all, which is depressing to me. And yeah, like I — (pause) The reactions are just — I don't know. It makes me feel like uncertain about how I should be feeling or kind of like — I'm just — (sighing) I feel like however I'm acting or feeling is wrong. Obviously I shouldn't be really worried.

[00:16:07]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So if I am —

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: — then I'm doing it wrong.

THERAPIST: If you're concerned about anything, it should be how much time your brother spent with his friend.

CLIENT: Yes, and that they almost didn't see Lincoln twice, but did eventually see it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah, and then my mom decided to also retroactively have a lot of opinions and information [on dad's] physical therapy.

THERAPIST: What did you —

CLIENT: Hmmm?

THERAPIST: — feel?

CLIENT: Mostly —

THERAPIST: Clearly wrongly, but —

CLIENT: Yeah. Shocked and numb.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And it didn't feel like it really happened.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

[00:17:05]

CLIENT: Like right after he called — like right after I got off the phone with my mom, I was just sort of standing there like I don't — I know that happened, but it doesn't feel like it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like — (pause) I don't know. I was just kind of being sad and in a fog about it. (pause) And I also had a real hard time convincing myself to eat anything for dinner. Yeah, I just kind of like I don't —

THERAPIST: You just lost your appetite.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: You just lost your appetite.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I ended up getting delivery because I was pretty sure I wasn't going to cook anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:18:01]

CLIENT: Like that sounded disgusting.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I lost my appetite and kind of alternated between pacing around the house a little bit and watching bad TV.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: I didn't really sleep well. (pause) And then I also wondered if I should — (sighing) I don't know. Like my mom was pretty clearly worried that I wouldn't come for Christmas but didn't say it. (pause) And I'm pretty sure I'll be able to come for Christmas. Like I'm not super worried about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:19:07]

CLIENT: But I also really wish she would just ask or say something. (pause) (sighing) I don't know. My sister-in-law said one time that my brother's man-cave was just [in his head] which was hilarious but —

THERAPIST: That's a good one.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think at the moment he was sort of — we were talking and I asked him something and he was totally in his own little head.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:20:02]

CLIENT: And I don't want to do that. I don't want to just sort of (pause) just sort of be stuck inside my head entirely or not really let people in, but it also — I don't know, this sort of happening makes me also think of how much my parents encourage us to not talk about things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And things that I think pretty clearly are understandably very evocative for you. My impression is that you are really upset about this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:21:03]

THERAPIST: Which makes all the sense in the world. And you're worried for him and feeling sort of distant and, at the moment, kind of shut down and sad and I imagine also frustrated with him.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like a big part of me — I don't know — like wishes that he'd told me in person because I hate being on the phone but I also, I don't know, kind of have that fantasy of him giving me a big hug and being like "Oh, it's okay."

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: You know, or something.

THERAPIST: Like a fatherly "Everything is going to be okay. I know you're worried, but I'll be alright."

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:22:04]

CLIENT: And that's not something I'm going to get.

THERAPIST: Would he do anything like that in person?

CLIENT: (sighing)

THERAPIST: I guess I'm thinking because that really doesn't involve him kind of acknowledging or talking about his own feelings so much as like giving you a hug and a pat on the back.

CLIENT: Sometimes. Like he probably would've — I don't know — done an awkward back-pat or (pause) it's like lately sometimes he will do this weird kind of like chuck on the chin or cheek pinch or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which I don't like because it always feels infantilizing and really stiff and awkward. (pause)

[00:23:01]

So yeah, he probably would've at least given like a kind of, you know, half hug [which is not bad].

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But would also not want me to not like be upset or tear up or anything. (pause) My dad can [think of my] mom like being mad I was tearing up and my dad being uncomfortable with it. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: He's phobic about those feelings.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It's also me feeling frustrated that there's all these things that I feel I don't know about my parents because they don't tell me.

[00:24:07]

And information like this makes me want to be like "I really wish you would talk more about things."

THERAPIST: Do you mean because you wonder what other things that you might worry about or just want to know about that he hasn't said, or is it more the specter of his mortality that this evokes that makes you want to hear more about his life?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's kind of the specter of mortality and also feeling like (pause) you know, I guess losing Jim and Sam so quickly —

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: — I kind of felt like there was this chunk of my family that's gone.

THERAPIST: Sure.

[00:25:07]

CLIENT: So my mom and I had this moderate fight over me taking some family photos from Sam's apartment after she died. I just took them. (pause) Like part of the frustration is just sort of like I feel like I don't — my dad is very reluctant to just sort of tell me kind of basic information about his life. Like I know some of it.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: But I always feel like there's a lot more that he doesn't really say for whatever reason. (pause)

[00:26:06]

Yeah, it's like — it's very much like I feel like there's this — I mean it's more like the conceptual family history disappearing. Like well, no one will know who these people are at some point (inaudible at 00:26:23). But also just like my dad as a person.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Like — I don't know. Like why does he like tigers so much or like whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: And I don't know. Like sometimes I also wonder why, like what is his reason for being this closed off? Like what's going on? What happened? Or why does he think this is a good idea?

[00:27:05]

My brother and I have also talked about wondering if they're that closed off with each other when they're alone.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And like — I don't know. Like it's very weird that I'd be like "I have no idea." (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's like whether all the things you wonder about him are things she knows or things she has no idea about.

CLIENT: Yeah. I suspect she knows and just doesn't say anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because occasionally she'll just sort of let things drop where I'm like "what?" (pause)

[00:28:03]

They're also both like, I guess, really invested in — I don't even know. Like my brother and I not knowing. (pause) They tend to be a little — I don't know — sometimes annoyed when I press them for more information about things. My dad did say one time when I was bugging him — not bugging him, but I was asking he and Sam bunch of questions. I asked them about what it was like — what his neighborhood was like when he was growing up. You know, with his two sisters.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:29:02]

CLIENT: And Sam told us some stories and then I asked my dad — my dad was like "oh yeah" and then just mentioned something else. And so I asked him why he never talked about it. He said that he didn't want — I guess he didn't want — he felt like we would think it was so terrible or so difficult and that he didn't want us to think he had a bad childhood because he was like "I was happy. We didn't feel like we were lacking something" and so he didn't want to be pitied. I was just like "I don't want to be whatever, I just want to know your stuff."

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you want to feel close to him and know what's happened in his life, I would think.

[00:30:10]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It's like such pulling teeth.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Especially about anything that's like — not even negative exactly, but anything that's potentially, I guess, not — I don't know. Like I was going to say "not heartwarming" but that isn't really it. (pause) I don't know. Like he doesn't — (pause) I kind of feel like someone must have had — like he must have had some kind of bad experience with someone.

[00:31:05]

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: You know like "Oh, tell me about your weird life of poverty or tell me more about racism that you experienced when you were a kid" or something. (pause) Which, you know, I can read a book about that. Like I want to know what it was like because I want to know what it was like for him, the individual.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Sometimes I think it's partially that it's too painful, like he doesn't want to think about it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But sometimes he'll also like — Tricia has managed to get a couple funny family anecdotes out of him. And I'm always like "Just do it more. Use your reporter interviewing tricks."

[00:32:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was picturing her being an aggressive journalist.

CLIENT: Well, so it's funny, she is very like sort of casual, soft-touch where it's not aggressive, but she sort of magically persuades him to start talking.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Uh huh.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I find it very impressive. But I also think that because Tricia is not his daughter, it's probably different.

THERAPIST: Right. Sure. (pause) He seems a bit easier talking with her about some of this. (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, a little bit. (pause)

[00:33:08]

Yeah, I think he seems a little less like — I guess it's not — (pause) I don't know. Like it's not as important. (pause) I don't know. Maybe — it's not like she's anonymous, but it's almost like he's telling something to someone who is anonymous and it doesn't really matter so it's easier because — (inaudible at 00:33:47) has actually never met a lot of the people that he talks about, but so — (pause) I know it seems like much lower stakes. (pause)

[00:34:12]

THERAPIST: I see that he's pretty invested in not telling you about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, he's also invested in not telling my brother. I mean, I can say all these things that I think, but I really don't know why. (pause)

THERAPIST: Does it affect how you feel about your own history? In other words, you said that the way both he and your mom were on the phone about the cancer made you feel kind of weird and like you're doing it wrong to have feelings about it. Is there something like that with stuff from your childhood?

CLIENT: Not from my childhood, but in terms of family history, I feel he doesn't — it's like our family history starts when like my brother was born. So I really don't know a lot about his childhood or my grandparents or my great grandparents or like various cousins and aunts and uncles. (pause)

[00:36:05]

And it's something I'm curious about, it's something that I'm interested in, that he won't really talk about. (pause) I mean, my mom doesn't really either but — (pause) I guess part of it is my dad's family didn't have a lot of money growing up. My mom's family were, you know, relatively well — not well-off, but like middle classy, and I think one side of the family had a little bit more money — not a ton — so there are a lot of photographs, a fair amount of photographs and things of my mother's family when they were kids.

[00:37:05]

And like going back to those old Victorian photos, so there's like objects. But with my dad's family, there's very few photographs. (pause) It's almost impossible for me to get — I feel like I have tried a really long time to be like "Who is this? Can you tell me so I can write it down?"

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And he won't really. Sometimes it's like if I can catch him with a sibling, then he's a little bit more. And sometimes I'm like "Well, do you not know?" I guess that could be possible but — (pause) I don't know.

[00:38:03]

Like I feel like there's this weird like void. I mean, it's also true that if I do any family history research, you know, like Ancestry.com or Geneology.com, but so what's really — I find quite disturbing and creepy but sort of obvious is there's this wall at like the Civil War, because before then, people weren't on records and they still — like most people weren't really in official records for a really long time after that. (pause) So that's really disturbing. I mean, part of it is like I was going through Ancestry.com and were like "Yeah, blah blah blah" and they're like "This person on this slave record" — or slave schedule is what they were called — "might be related to you."

[00:39:12]

And I'm just like "Don't do that." Like it's just disturbing because they have this scanned document, and it's just really awful to be sort of like "Oh right, these people were property and God only knows what they actually called themselves," and you're guessing based on vague age and region and it's just really horrible.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) It seems to me there's this also horrible kind of emptiness (pause) for you for not knowing more about especially your dad's history and life and emotional life. (pause)

[00:41:02]

I guess I'm trying to sort of articulate the sort of feeling I have when you describe it and (pause) (inaudible at 00:41:27) is like a kind of alienation or aloneness because of it. Another is feeling a kind of injury from it, you know? Like there's this thing that all the other kids have that you don't have. I don't mean really like —

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know what I mean? Like it's what you missed out on, which usually feels pretty crummy.

[00:42:09]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I mean, it's also like kind of morbidly — it's like, well what would — like God forbid I was writing my dad's obituary. Like I could tell you like, you know, some dates if I was writing — I feel like — (pause) You know, if someone were to interview me about my dad, I would just be "Yeah, [I should know], but I don't. He was alive. He went to school. Blah."

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I mean, I guess partially because, you know, his sibling — like Indianapolis is not that close and blah blah blah blah blah. (pause)

[00:43:19]

I don't know. Like [if I had] stories that people tell at family barbeques or Thanksgiving or whatever. (pause) Like every embarrassing thing my dad did as a kid.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I think I know a little bit of them, but I can only just think "There's that, that, that."

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah, like thinking about what kind of kid he was or about the major events of his childhood, good and bad.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or his family growing up.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I can get why he doesn't want to talk to me about some things. (pause)

[00:44:14]

What I would love to know is like — but I don't think he's going to tell me about what it was like to integrate his high school.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then to try and just be like alright, he's not going to tell me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But one of the people that he did it with was his best friend, Daniel (ph), and we used to visit him every time we were in Cincinnati because he had a traumatic brain injury at some point in adulthood and was [living with] with his mother. And so part of the brain injury was like he had — I think he just had a hard time with things that had happened to him recently, but he very much enjoyed talking about —

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: — his childhood.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And their friendship. So there was like — like we don't really know anything about him except for this is my dad's friend who had a traumatic brain injury.

[00:45:24]

THERAPIST: We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:45:26). Sorry again about your dad.

CLIENT: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT