TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What’s up?

THERAPIST: How was your trip?

CLIENT: It was good. It’s been a crazy, crazy week, but it was good. Yeah, like, I a bunch of, like, logistical shit happened that kind of threw things off track, but, yeah. So yeah, I’m pretty tired actually. But on Monday (laughter), I had, like, a seriously scary moment where I got pulled over by a state (inaudible 00:42). And I’d had, like, two or three beers, you know. I was fine. But still, I’m just completely freaking out inside. Turns out my registration had expired. I still don’t know how this happened. I mean, I have insurance. I have my emissions sticker. I literally don’t know what the fuck happened. I don’t know if it just slipped my mind. I’ve been away so long and I wasn’t driving. But I totally I don’t know. I don’t know what the fuck I was thinking. So that was really scary, because I didn’t, you know. So that was, you know, kind of late at night.

But so he had to tow the car. He was like, “I’m sorry, I just can’t let you drive,” you know. So on the one hand, I was relieved (laughter) that that’s all that happened, but, you know. So yeah, it was a financial. Then my car had coolant issues, so I had to have it repaired. It was just a fucking nightmare. That being said, it could have been, you know somehow these things didn’t trigger things in me, so that was good. I just dealt with it. I had to kind of borrow some money, which I didn’t want to do, but, you know, when you’re forced, you’re forced. I mean, I just couldn’t. Between fixing my car, getting my car out of the tow lot, I mean, it was just like all this shit happened. But, you know, luckily, my friends are amazing and they helped out. [00:02:20]

So then it was like, all right, well, do I cancel my trip, you know? But then I was like, but I fucking paid for the hotel. Now it’s non-refundable because it’s, like, the day that I’m going to you know what I mean? So I ended up again, I got a little bit lucky, but I found in Cheshire, there’s a very small car rental. It’s not a chain, you know. So I got, like, a really cheap rental. It was, like, 120 bucks, you know, for three days. I was like, you know what, there’s nothing I can do. The car needs to be repaired, and if I don’t go because of all these things, that could be a trigger, you know. I’m going to feel like all this shit conspired, and then I allowed it to make me feel kind of defeated and negative, and so, to blow off this trip that I was planning, you know.

So I went, and it was good. It was fine. It was fun, you know. Yeah, I don’t know. It was good. Like, I was even thinking about it on the way there, on the way back, while I was there. It’s so crazy to me now that I never feel the kind of anxiety or panic I used to feel. Do you know what I mean? I was like, I’m, like, walking around in Pittsburgh. Like, these are the kind of things that would trigger, do you know what I mean? Total weird sensory overload. Different kind of environment. I just felt very good, I guess, you know. [00:04:01]

And Uma was really cool. She’s a really cool person. It was really fun. And even that was good. Like, it was I think she’s a pretty healthy like, you know, we fooled around a lot and stuff, but we didn’t have sex, you know, and I thought that was kind of cool, like, you know. Like, we just hung out and (pause) we even, like, had a talk about it. And we were like, “Well, you know, it’d be really hard to date long distance, but maybe we can try. But we won’t put any pressure on it. Just see what, you know.” Like, I don’t know. It was very we just had a great time, you know. And it really served its purpose. I did feel nice. It did feel good to kind of just get away and just, you know.

So yeah, but yeah, it was a lot. It was a long week. It sucks to ask people to help you. I mean, really, it wasn’t a big deal. Once I asked my friends, they were like, “Oh my god, yeah. What, three hundred bucks? Man, of course.” It’s just another motivator, you know, in terms of money and all that, you know. (Pause) Right now, that’s my main, you know. So the business is really on my mind. I’ve been doing more and more research, you know. Like, I got to figure it out.

I’m going to tweak my website. I think I shouldn’t list the hourly rate. I don’t think that’s a good idea. A lot of people don’t even know what coaching is, you know what I mean? So I think why are they going to (inaudible 05:45) hundred and whatever bucks an hour? What is it exactly? You know, like, I don’t want to do that. That’s one. And then I really do need to figure out kind of the niche. I need to list a couple of things that are really my because the more I’ve been reading, there are a lot of life coaches. It’s a really big, growing business right now. And I have no doubt that I can be successful, I just I’d rather it happen sooner than later. Businesses take a long time to get going. I’d rather do things the right way off the bat and try to draw, you know. [00:06:20]

So yeah, I got some books, so I did some research on what the good books are. Because I think I have to just start, you know. I have to just start somewhere, you know. But yeah, that’s my main focus.

THERAPIST: [I wonder right now] (ph) what comes up for you here around money. I know that’s hard to talk about here too, but I realize that you have often acknowledge it’s hard to talk about, but I don’t know, like, what your internal process is like around paying for this right now.

CLIENT: What do you mean? In general?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like, do you think about it? If you forget a check, like last week, is that I don’t know if it’s in your mind.

CLIENT: Yeah, of course it bothers me. Yeah, yeah. No, it’s always in my mind, yeah. Yeah, it bothers me. Sometimes what happens is I’m like, you know, I just feel better if I delay it till it’s closer to when I’m going to get my next unemployment check, so I just feel at least that in case, you know. Yeah, of course I think about it. I mean, you know. (Crosstalk 07:36) It’s like sometimes I think different things. Sometimes I think like, “Wow, it’s a lot of money. Like, 240 a month.” Then I think, well, actually, no, it’s not a lot of money, because that’s not even the average rate for I mean, I see (inaudible 07:48) all the time. I don’t pay 240. That’s actually really, really cheap. So then I feel good about it.

I mean, it just bums me out that I have to think about it at all. That’s, I would say so now, it’s not about here. It’s about all of this stuff. It bothers me that I can’t either just fix my car without an issue, without being stressed about it. Or that, you know, I have to drive a 2000, that I can’t just get a slightly newer car, you know. It’s a bigger issue about money right now, do you know what I’m saying? It’s not just about here [or there] (ph), because this is amazing. I mean, are you kidding me? I mean, you know, one of my friends told me, like, “How have you seen this person for this long? Or if she’s so amazing -” Like, well, because I’m fucking lucky and she’s, you know, compassionate and she has a system where she’s able to, for some of her, you know, unlike I feel very fortunate, you know.

So you know what I mean? So it’s like a mixed bag. Like, 240 is 240, you know what I mean? Right? (Laughter) It is a lot of money, but I also know how essential this is, you know what I mean. I just get bumped out sometimes when I feel like some weeks more than others I’m stripped. You know, it’s but again, that’s across the board. I feel that way about my insurance or my, you know.

THERAPIST: So last week when you I’m just trying to put together when you say you’re thinking about it all the time. Not only here you’re saying everywhere. And then you forgot to bring a check. [00:09:35]

CLIENT: I didn’t forget.

THERAPIST: You didn’t forget.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that’s [on your list] (ph) because, like, waiting for the check to come in?

CLIENT: Yeah, because I was like, “I owe her anyway on Friday.” So I was like, I’d rather just pay her then.

THERAPIST: Today.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For last week.

CLIENT: And then, you know, just, yeah. I mean, I’m always kind of behind, you know what I mean? Because I feel like then, I get screwed by the bank fees. Because it’s not your fault. You’re going to cash it whenever you’re going to cash it, you know what I mean. So at least it’s closer to when I know that there’s money. I don’t know. So yeah, no, I don’t forget it I just have to strategize how to, you know.

THERAPIST: Maybe that would be easier than. Like, it could be one check a month, where you know do you know what I mean? Like, if it were one check for 240 right when you got paid, and you (inaudible 10:31) that week.

CLIENT: Yeah. I could try it that way, yeah. But again, see, then that depends. Like, is that the week that also my insurance is going to be taken out or my loan to my uncle? You know, it’s all this fucking shit that I have to, you know. But yeah, maybe. Yeah. That could be good too. That way, it’s just done.

THERAPIST: I think I was just worried about, you know, doing the bill for this month. The balance had tipped above a thousand dollars.

CLIENT: Did it? Fuck.

THERAPIST: Just because this month -

CLIENT: I’ve missed a couple, yeah.

THERAPIST: Last week, and then there was one at the beginning of the month. So -

CLIENT: All right then, you know what I’ll do, is then I’ll (pause) since I think I can swing it in this next week or two, I’ll try to pay, like, a bigger chunk next week as well. Yeah. Fuck. I didn’t realize -

THERAPIST: I mean, it’s atypical for me to allow it go on that long. Usually, you know, it’s got to be ready (ph) into the following month. I know things have been really hard. It’s been based on need. But I also think it’s important to talk about it. I actually think it gets easier -

CLIENT: Sure, sure. No, no. it’s fine.

THERAPIST: if then it’s above ground and then, you know, you don’t have to feel like, it’s not, like an elephant in the room anymore.

CLIENT: No, it’s fine. Okay, then I’ll yeah, I’ll try to make some dents in it over the next week or two. That way -

THERAPIST: I think the most important part, especially just keeping up so it doesn’t get any worse. But that, I mean, you bought a check today, so (inaudible 12:04) that may even have kept it the same than what the check was for (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I’ll try to see, it’s like these things. Like, if the car thing hadn’t happened. I don’t know. There’s always -

THERAPIST: Ordinary life (crosstalk 12:19)

CLIENT: Yeah, ordinary life.

THERAPIST: keep money.

CLIENT: So when you’re basically broke, it’s just it becomes really hard. But regardless, I’ll yeah. Yeah, I think next week I can make a dent. (Pause) Yeah. And now, I’m even thinking maybe I won’t even go to this other bachelor party, my friend’s party in San Diego. I don’t know. I just don’t know, you know. I mean, I’m going to stay at his house, so I don’t have to pay to stay anywhere, but even just going out and stuff.

THERAPIST: Right. It’s like to not do that, because at one level, you know you don’t have the money. Then also, it’s like sitting with that reality is so it sounds like it just feels so bleak and low.

CLIENT: Yeah, it just feels like I mean, because basically, then I feel like, well, why that bachelor party? Really, I shouldn’t be doing anything then. If this is all about that, then it’s the weekend, for example. I should do absolutely nothing, you know. I should just stay home and, you know, and just stay home. I mean, you know, where do you draw the you know, where do you save yourself from just going into, like, a fucking depression because you’re, you know.

THERAPIST: And on the flip side, where do you save yourself from going into a kind of denial, like, pretending there is money, until it’s -

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think I’ve been good that way. I mean, it’s just the one, this one stupid trip was the one thing I’ve done. Like, I’ve not done anything. So I think I’ve been good, but you can be good but still life can happen, you know. I had it all planned out. I had it budgeted out, and then, you know. So, yeah. You know, I really, you know, this business, nothing business is going to change nothing overnight, but it has to get started. Like, I need to, you know. [00:14:33]

THERAPIST: Need to what? What are the next steps to [start up] (ph)?

CLIENT: Well, I need to I’m doing more serious research now, like, instead of a general, like, Google type, looking at people’s websites. I found out, like, what the best books are that are, like, you know, not these books that are like, you know, how to grow your coaching business to be a million dollar, you know. Not that kind of shit. But, like, I just got a book that looks really. It’s really about, like, you know, what about liability? What about, you know. Or what kind of clients exactly are you you can’t just say you’re a coach. Like, it’s so competitive now. You really need to figure out what kind of practice do you want. What kind of clients do you want to see? And then how do you make that happen, you know?

And they talk a lot about how, you know, coaches, there’s the big thing. It’s not just saying you’re a you know, when you’re a psychologist, people know what that is. With coaches, you have this double duty of, like, kind of explaining what the fuck you do, and then creating a market for that. They’re all things I know I can do. It’s good to get more concrete info, you know. You know, the fact is a lot of coaches don’t make it, or they do make it, but they need to do other things as well. They just don’t make enough money. For whatever reason, I feel very confident that I really can do well. I need to figure out how to it’s almost like I need coaching first, you know what I mean? Like, I need to figure out what are my how to utilize my strengths in the best way, you know.

So yeah, so the website needs a little tweaking, I think, a little bit. I’m going to have a blog, you know. One of my best skills is writing, so I’m going to have a blog where just little, you know. You lost your job, now what? You know, (laughter) things I can speak to, you know. Delayed grief. I don’t know. Just things that I can, you know. And then, I don’t know. Yeah, and then we’ll see. So I just have to get it out there and just start, somehow. [00:16:40]

THERAPIST: Have you set any deadline for yourself? Like, when you’re going to launch it by?

CLIENT: Next week.

THERAPIST: Next week.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the website’s done. I mean, I could launch it right now and just tweak it, you know.

THERAPIST: I don’t mean the website, but it sounds like you want some more background [inside you] (ph) from your reading, before you see your first client?

CLIENT: I think by the time I got a client, I’d be ready. You know what I mean? I mean, I doubt that I’ll get a client next week, but I want to announce it next week, be like, “Look, let’s get the word out, what’s going on.” I’ll have, like, one or two blog posts people can read, you know. I’ll tweak my bio a little bit. I think it should be a more bullet you know what I mean? It’s a nice bio. Everyone likes it, but I think I do need to, that part, my specialization. And, like, just a, you know, published author, you know. Graduate school. Teacher. Public speaker. Whatever. Like, I just need to make sure people understand what my strong points are.

THERAPIST: What’s the shrug (ph)?

CLIENT: No, you know, just that it’s daunting. I mean, it’s just, you know. I am a little nervous, you know. This is going to take time, I think, to get off the ground. So…

THERAPIST: That’s a big deal.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s a big deal. Yeah, yeah. And also, that means it can be an amazing deal, do you know what I mean? It’s just going to take time, you know.

THERAPIST: It’s all new.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I’m just hoping, you know, while I have this unemployment it’s just such a good opportunity to work on yourself and you know what I mean? So I’m hoping that I don’t need to make a lot of money, but if it was just enough that, okay, even if I don’t have the unemployment how, my business is like, you feel like you’re on the right trajectory. Like, oh yeah, this is a growing business. We’re getting there, you know. Even if it’s not a lot of money, you know, luckily, with my living I don’t need a lot. I just need to know that it’s a viable business. [00:18:52]

But yeah. No, I mean, how could you not be nervous? I mean, you’re starting (laughter), you know. Plus the kind of family I you know, I try not to talk to them much about it, but they’re supportive. But they kind of don’t get it, kind of. You know? My uncle doesn’t get it, I think, kind of. I don’t think he gets it. You know, they’re just so they’re so practically minded. They’re so, like and I think, also, they’re just, unfortunately, it’s the way they see me, I think. I mean, I’m sure on some level they think, “Who are you to give like, what advice (laughter) are you going to give some business person, like, a real business?” You know what I mean? I’m sure there’s a little bit of that going on too. It’s frustrating, you know, but…

THERAPIST: Is that anything you feel?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Is that a voice inside of you towards yourself too?

CLIENT: Not really, no. No, no. I feel the opposite. [In fact] (ph), are you kidding me? (Laughter) How much time do you have? I mean, I think I have a lot to offer people. A lot, you know. (Pause) Yeah, no, I’m not worried about that. And the reason I think I’m going to be good at it is because, unlike them, I don’t give a shit. Like, you know, if I’m coaching someone who’s like a zillionaire or something, I’m not I think the reason it’s going to work is because I’m not going to kiss their ass. I’m not going to you know what I mean? It’s not going to be about -

THERAPIST: Oh, that’s how you’re thinking your uncle meant it, like you’re lesser than that person [in some way] (ph)?

CLIENT: That’s what I’m saying, yeah. That, you know, what’s your advice to some successful why would they come see you? You know what I mean? I could be wrong. I don’t think that’s really what he meant. I think he just really doesn’t, you know. I think it’s, you know, what the fuck is life coaching? I think there is a you really have to constantly be like, why? Why would someone need this? Why would they come to you specifically?” You know. How do you know they’re not going to want their money back, you know? (Laughter) My uncle is like, “What if they want their you know, what if they feel like it wasn’t what they wanted, and they don’t feel any progress? Then can’t they what if they want their money back, you know?” [00:21:22]

That’s like saying, you know, you came to me because you were depressed. You’re still depressed. (Laughter) And now I’m going to want my money back for my you know, like, it doesn’t work that way. (Laughter) But, you know, they have these very pragmatic, practical type, you know.

THERAPIST: I mean, the question, “What is it you’re going to be saying you’re an expert in,” I think is what you’re saying about life coaching. It’s something you have to kind of sort out. It’s not you have a degree in this, though (ph) you obtained training to be an expert.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: And that may be where it clashes culturally. It’s [sort of just] (ph) too far away from their understanding.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think for them it’s hard to imagine that you can just I mean, that’s what I just told them. I was very blunt. I was like, “I’m a life coach because I said I’m a life coach.” (Laughter) You know, they don’t understand this concept of, you know what, you can obviously, you can’t say, “I’m a surgeon because I say I’m a surgeon.” I mean, but there are things in life where you decide that, you know what, I’m going to be this thing. Because -

THERAPIST: Are there? See, I don’t know. A lot of things are just don’t you have to get training for everything.

CLIENT: Well, not I mean -

THERAPIST: Like to be a teacher.

CLIENT: I mean, you do, but what I’m trying to say though is (pause) look at someone’s who’s a successful writer, right, who did go to college, but whatever. They ‘re not, like, a PhD in literature or something. Their training is just that they decided to write and they wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote, and now they’re successful. Now they’re suddenly an expert. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: But that’s also years of building expertise, right, and working on the craft before they actually get something published. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, but my argument would be that, I mean, I’ve been teaching. I’ve been studying literature. I’ve been writing. I’ve been doing things. I’ve been here. I’ve been doing things that are non-stop studies of human behavior, non-stop. So that’s on top of my accomplishments. You know, ivy league school. Publishing a book. Things that I’ve put my mind to that I’ve succeeded when, really, I shouldn’t have, in some ways, you know. My context was fighting against everything I’ve done. I’m sorry, but the more I look around me, I’m like, “I don’t give a shit if you’re certified or not. All you have is that certification. I don’t see anything else that is some kind of amazing background. You had the money to go get certified. You got certified. Good for you.” Do you know what I’m saying? [00:24:04]

I mean, I see it as it’s a wide-open field. I mean, in that way, it is unusual, in that way. But perfect. I mean, if you feel that you have a calling for it, if you feel confident, great. Then it works out. You know. I mean, I don’t know. My understanding of psychology is, you know, back in the day, a lot of psychologists were not particularly degreed or whatever. I mean, they studied a lot and they read a lot, and then they had right?

THERAPIST: You have to have a license.

CLIENT: No, no. I’m talking about, like, in the beginnings of psychology. Right?

THERAPIST: Oh, like hundreds of years ago you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, like a hundred years ago, whatever it was. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I feel like it was just this brand new field that people just read and read and read, and they studied, and they started to get their hands wet by doing things. And then they went and maybe got a degree or whatever. But, you know, I kind of see it that way.

THERAPIST: That life coaching’s in that sort of (crosstalk 25:01).

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, it started in the ‘80s, you know. So I kind of feel like, you know.

THERAPIST: There may be eventually be a license.

CLIENT: And there should be. And I am going to get certified. I would love to get certified. I just don’t have seven grand, ten grand, you know. I need to get clients, so that as I get the clients, then I can take a course here, you know. I can slowly, you know. That’s easy enough to do. So it’s not that you don’t need all that stuff it’s just that I think I’m fortunate in that I have such a wacky background that almost seems like a perfect fit, do you know what I mean? I don’t know. Tell me if I’m wrong. I mean, you know.

THERAPIST: It’s totally unfamiliar to me, in a way. I mean, I’m so used to this field, where people put in years and years and years of training and coursework. And people have backgrounds that mean that they’ve been used to that work, right. A lot of people starting (ph) graduate school have been in therapy for ten years already. But that they still need the training. That’s the piece that I would wish for you to have more of, because then you would (crosstalk 26:12) helpful.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, me too. Absolutely. There’s no easy way around that, unfortunately, you know. So I have to take this, like, circuitous way to it.

THERAPIST: And the field is such that it sounds like that you can do that. It’s not that you’re not allowed to do that.

CLIENT: Absolutely, yeah. Well, there’s something like 30 thousand life coaches right now, I think, in the U.S. it said. Three percent of them are certified. So, (laughter) I mean, you know. Most of those people probably aren’t making that much money or whatever, but they’re obviously spinning it. They’re working at it in a way that they’re able to do something, you know. But yeah, I mean, it’s not going to be easy. That’s part of the reason I think it’s not. There’s no question. I mean, you know. I think especially in, you know, people don’t want to part with their money easily. They want to see what your credentials are. What you’re, you know. So it’s understandable.

So I think I have to do, you know, the blog. I basically have to build a brand. I have to brand myself, basically, as someone that, you know what, I’m just a like, I’ve just gone through enough things and I’ve come out the other side that I have wisdom to impart. Not that I’m up here just that, you know, I’ve got something to offer, you know what I mean? And that will, hopefully, be enough of an engine to get me through to actual, you know, certification. And who the fuck I mean, I was even thinking maybe once I’m reenergized, maybe once I’m making money a little bit, and just feel like, who’s to say that I wouldn’t actually become a psychologist or something? I mean, I am pretty wacky that way. I’ll just fucking do it, you know. I mean, you know, who’s to say? Or a master’s in, you know, therapy or whatever, you know. I’m not against any of that I just don’t have the money and time right now to do it. [00:28:16]

Because, I mean, that’s an amazing combo. I mean, the more I think about it, like, you know, literature and psychology is like, are you kidding? One is an artistic expression of the (laughter) other. It’s like it’s a perfect, you know, an artistic expression that’s often more real than the real. I mean, that’s why art is literature is so amazing. It makes people feel things in a realer way that they didn’t know they were really feeling or whatever, you know. So [I don’t know] (ph). (Pause) I mean, you know, a lot of it’s willpower. I’m absolutely determined to just make this work, you know. I feel like it’s the first thing that excites me as a job, you know what I mean? I’ve never felt this (ph), not even teaching. That was just like, “Oh, wow. Look at me. I’m actually -” like, that’s more like a big boy thing. Like, “Wow, look at me. I went to grad school, and now I’m actually a teacher in a course.” But I never felt really excited about any of that, you know. It just a lot of paperwork and a lot of people you’re not getting through to. They just want to get through the fucking course. They don’t care.

So this is the first time I feel like, wow, all these skills I have, it’s perfect. You know, it’s absolutely perfect, you know. So now it’s just about it’s just willpower. It’s sheer confidence and, you know, strategizing and, you know. (Pause) I mean, it’s like consulting in a way. What the fuck is a I don’t know. I still don’t know what consultants do exactly. Some of them really do things. I think a lot of them don’t. I think a lot of them find fancy ways to tell businesses what the businesses need or some shit like that. But it’s a business. I mean, they’ve (laughter) turned it into a business. And I think this is similar. I think some of these people are probably not shysters, but they’re not telling you anything you don’t know or whatever. And then, I think some of them can be pretty (pause), you know. Like, pretty potent effectors of change. [00:31:02]

That’s how I feel about it. We’ll see. But (pause), I mean, it’s like coaching yourself. I’m not living to my potential. I’m not. Right. Whatever job I’ve had, it’s not tapping into my real, like, core talents and personality, you know what I mean? This is, you know.

THERAPIST: Even more so than being a writer or a professor, you think?

CLIENT: Professor, definitely. I mean, I’m a good professor, but the thing about that, again, is that there’s only a few students who give a shit in the class. I mean, that’s just a standard average, right. Every course you teach, there’s just a few that they’re going to be like, “Wow, that guy was -” they’re going to remember you, you know. If you’re a good teacher, you know. And I’m lucky that that’s happened. But you’re not getting paid enough, again, unless you’re the very tiny percentage now that gets a nice ten-year track and -

THERAPIST: That’s what I mean. I’m not talking about (inaudible 32:15). If you were to get a ten-year track position as a faculty member.

CLIENT: I like this better.

THERAPIST: You like this better?

CLIENT: I’m in control. I’m in control, you know what I mean? You know, it’s my business. I’m not sitting through stupid faculty meetings. I’m not, you know. I don’t have to teach courses I don’t want to teach, you know. Deal with other stoody (ph) professors in the department. Fuck that. Not to mention, it’s a drain, you know. Yeah, that is a cushy job but, you know, it doesn’t help you as an artist at least to me it didn’t. And it wasn’t because of the money it just was that it didn’t help me creatively, you know what I mean? You can almost feel, like, the bitter. You know what I mean? Your colleagues are all kind of some of them have been there forever. Even the ten-year. They don’t give a fuck anymore, you know. A lot of that’s true, you know.

So that’s why I’ve said before, right, my ideal is to just keep publishing more. And then they invite me here or there to teach courses, just because I’m a writer with a PhD. Nothing matters, just because this guy’s a well-known poet or whatever. I end up publishing. That’s different. Then I love that shit, you know. But this whole just actual professorship (ph) thing…

THERAPIST: That’s really important. You know, if you’re articulating that, what if you could have that job tomorrow, or have this job tomorrow?

CLIENT: No, absolutely. This job.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 33:58)

CLIENT: Yeah, I want my freedom, man. I want my freedom. I’m done. Like, I feel like it’s about knowing yourself, you know. I just don’t it’s not that I don’t do well I do well enough working for others. But it’s not again, it’s always suppressing. I end up working for managers that are shitty. Like, I end up working for people that I could do their job better. And not just me I’m sure a lot of people are like that, right. They work for shitty managers (laughter), where if they were given the chance, they’d completely do things differently and make, you know. The money’s never good enough, and you’re at the whim of other people, you know. I’m done with that. I’m just done, you know. But that’s not a way to live. You know, two weeks’ vacation, if you’re lucky or whatever. What the fuck that’s not life, you know. I don’t want that. [00:34:50]

And also, that’s the other extreme. That doesn’t help with creativity either. The two extremes don’t help. I need something that’s mine, that I schedule my clients. Even if I’m only making, you know. I don’t need to make a shit load of money, but if I just knew that, wow, I created something that I’m sustaining myself. Are you kidding? Like, you know, setting my own schedule. Engaged with people where I’m learning as well. Like, my brain is you know what I mean? Like this, right? That’s part of the reason why I love coming here. It’s like, you know. It’s helping me, but it’s also I mean, it’s just my personality. I like to be reflective and be a critical thinker and think about bigger questions. Why do people feel these things? You know. That shit’s fascinating, you know. So, you know, I just, yeah, I just feel like it really fits, you know, my personality.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 35:55) if it’s crossed your mind that have you wished you’d found psychology earlier.

CLIENT: I thought about it. I don’t know. You know, my problem, the one thing about psychology is you guys have to (pause) I don’t know what I am, like, as an average patient, but you have to deal with a lot of difficult stuff, you know what I mean? And I don’t know if I you know what I mean? You got people come in here and they cry and they (pause) I mean, you know, it’s some heavy, dark stuff that psychologists have to deal with. So I don’t know if I could -

THERAPIST: That feels [less of a fit] (ph).

CLIENT: That’s intense. Yeah, that’s intense, you know. That’s very intense. Also, you have the combination of people who are going through, you know, crying or psychologically fucked up. You may also not even really like let’s face it, you know what I mean. So I feel like, Jesus, that’s so I have to help this person who’s sobbing in front of me, who I also kind of, you know?

THERAPIST: That’s an interesting thing that comes to mind.

CLIENT: I mean, you have to, right? I don’t know. I don’t think I’d be coming here if I feel like, you know, I don’t think Claire really likes me. You know what I mean? I think there has to be there is a very intimate connection with people. It’s not like you’re just mending a broken bone. You have to talk. It’s very intimate, you know. So I don’t know if I could handle you know what I mean? Whereas with coaching (clears throat), even if I didn’t totally like this person, at least it’s a little more of a pleasant you know, it’s about their future. It’s about positivity (laughter) more. But if you know what I mean? (Pause) No?

THERAPIST: No, I’m listening.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I don’t see how psychologists can that has to be, you know. Or you have to be like my aunt just cold. I don’t think she gives a shit either way whether she connects to people or not, you know. Matter of fact, she doesn’t connect at all. (inaudible 38:11) They’re just sad, eating disorder people. I mean, there’s no connection whatsoever. She’s just found a niche and, you know, and that’s not me either. I can’t be like that. So, you know, I’d have to be like you or someone like you, you know. You have to be tough. That’s a, you know.

I mean, that’s at least what my social worker friends [told me] (ph), the therapists, you know. They’re like, when we talked, they were like, “Yeah, you know, some days, it’s, you know, it’s very, very draining because of what you have to help people with, especially when you know some of those people aren’t going to change.” You know what I mean. Some of those people are going to be damaged for a long, long, long, long time. That’s heavy, you know. I don’t know if I could. Maybe down the road, I don’t know. But I just feel like that’s a very intense thing, day in and day out.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 39:21) draining with (ph) being, like, the emotional investment at work is different than liking or not liking someone you work with. I’m just interested by that coming up.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You picture yourself not liking someone and then having to work with them.

CLIENT: Well, it’s not about not liking. I mean, I don’t know. Maybe I’m totally I don’t know. I just see how could that not be a thing. I mean, I feel like two people are interacting (laughter) on a very intimate level. We’re human beings. I mean, how could you not? You know what I mean? Like, we’re people. We pass judgment. People have little ticks that might annoy the shit out of us or whatever. And I’m not saying that you’re like, “Oh, I fucking hate this person,” but, you know, when you have to see them three times a week, four times a week or whatever it is, (pause) on top of very serious issues that they have. I don’t know. I just feel that’d be a lot. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, it’s different than thinking like, even if somebody’s an asshole, I’m interested in why. Like (crosstalk 40:38)

CLIENT: No doubt. The fascination would be the same. I’m not saying that. But what I am saying though is I feel like it would take a chunk out of you. That would be maybe a little different in a more pleasant -

THERAPIST: (inaudible 40:50)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or a lighter level, you’re saying. Maybe, you know, focus on the future.

CLIENT: Exactly. There’s no way in hell if I came in here three days, Wednesday, Thursday, and if I came in here and I was sobbing and kind of volatile, there’s no way your takeaway would be the same. Unless you’re a robot. Do you know what I mean? I don’t think that’s -

THERAPIST: You know what, it’s interesting that you imagine that would be somehow worse for me.

CLIENT: It’s not necessarily worse. I’m just saying as a job, right. I’m going to leave here, and then you’re going to do whatever you do. There’s always a residue of your work life, right? So if three days out of the week, plus all your other patients, if I was in here, you know, just fucking volatile and just manic or sobbing all the time, I’m just saying that of course you’re helping me, and it’s probably very fulfilling and whatever, all that stuff. But then, at the end of that week, you know, it’s probably also tiring in a that would be tiring in a different way. I’m sure this is tiring too, when you’re working. But, you know what I’m saying? That’s tiring in a different way, because then every time you think of me, you’re going to think of someone kind of falling apart. Not in a bad way, but just a, you know, “Man, that’s what my patient’s going through.” [I don’t know] (ph). I could be wrong.

THERAPIST: I totally hear you, like, on a practical level of differentiating that level of work from skills coaching level of work.

CLIENT: Like teaching, right. When I had students that were constantly a problem, to me, it exhausted me, you know what I mean? That’s what I’m saying. Lovely people. It’s not that they’re, you know. And I wanted to help them, and I really tried to help them. I’m just saying that tired me way more than a more standard kind of just students that, you know. They might have little things, but they’re, you know.

THERAPIST: I totally hear you at the practical level. And it’s interesting to me that still there’s some assumptions I hear you making about, like, someone about sobbing would be more tiring or problematic.

CLIENT: Not problematic, but yeah no, maybe it’s not.

THERAPIST: Having problems. I mean, it’s just I’m just thinking about you never crying, really, in here. Hardly ever. Like, if that’s the way that carries it, that would somehow be burdensome. Like, it’s hard for you to imagine that could be less burdensome, like, freeing. Opening.

CLIENT: Oh, I see what you’re saying. Yeah.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t have to mean the person’s crazy if they’re sobbing.

CLIENT: No, no, no. I don’t think crazy. Again, I’m talking about work life, because you’re asking me about psychology.

THERAPIST: I get it, and my job is also to, like, pay attention to what else you’re [talking about] (ph). There’s always text and subtext.

CLIENT: That’s true, yeah. No, I’m sure that’s yeah, maybe that’s why I don’t cry in here. I guess. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don’t want to be like one of those patients.

CLIENT: I guess. I guess, I don’t know. I’m not against it. I have (ph) pride in here.

THERAPIST: [I know] (ph).

CLIENT: It’s just for some reason, it doesn’t, you know. I don’t feel moved to cry. I don’t know why. That’s weird. You know, embarrassment or what you’ll think or I don’t know.

THERAPIST: That’s kind of what I mean. I know we’re talking about the professional level of this, but in some ways, you’re also saying a little bit more about all these feelings you’d imagine or worry I might have about someone who was losing it on the couch with tears. Or, like, who is that person? Even to me. Who is that person inside your own head?

CLIENT: I guess I’m just so sensitive. Even though that’s your job, you’re trained to do these things, and you care about these things. (Laughter) I guess for me, I have that its’ almost like a bizarre politeness or something. Like, I feel like, God, why am I like I’d be ruining your day. Not ruining your day but, like -

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I’m very, very cognizant of how I interact with people. I’m like, “Ah, fuck. No,” you know. If we’re having a perfectly interesting helpful conversation, then I busted out crying, and now, you know, Claire’s going to be like, “Oh, that’s sad.”

THERAPIST: But that would be draining [or something] (ph).

CLIENT: Or just, yeah. That it would just put a pall (ph) over the proceedings. (Laughter) Yeah, no, I’m yeah, I don’t do and I know that now about myself. I’m overly conscious about how I’m interacting with people and polite to the point of, like, maybe unhealthy, I guess, kind of, you know.

THERAPIST: Why would I (ph) put a pall over the proceedings? Like, what (inaudible 45:50)

CLIENT: Just that, you know, I have this it’s so enjoyable. Not like in a fun enjoyable, but just it’s so I really enjoy coming here, that I’d feel like I kind of (pause) not ruined it, but that it’s a bummer. Or it’s so out of the norm, because that doesn’t happen, that it would be like this jarring, like, just doesn’t fit with what we do. Do you know what I mean? We have this, like, pattern of how we are, you know. Something like that.

I mean, it’s almost like, you know, like when I see my I have a certain way that I deal with certain you know what I mean? When I’m with my uncle or whatever, I get it, how it works now, you know what I mean. I just ask him how he’s doing, let him talk. Just whatever. I would never just I’ll be honest and be like, “Well, you know, I’m really stressed about money.” Or even if I did, it’d be just very quick. Like, “Yeah, well, you know, it’s not easy being unemployed, but it’s okay. Everything’s okay.” You know, like just because I don’t want to deal with him not getting what I’m saying or, you know. It’s not exactly the same here, but that same (pause) just (pause).

THERAPIST: It’s some of the same, you’re saying. Even here, I can feel sometimes, like, kind of how you get into here is social banter would be so much it’s like a safer place to kind of have, you know, give and take intellectual, lighter conversation. And -

CLIENT: I don’t know. But also, I think everyone’s different, you know. I mean, that does help me.

THERAPIST: Oh, I’m not saying it’s not helpful.

CLIENT: Yeah, but you’re totally I mean, I’ve thought a lot about that. I mean, you know, I’m well aware that when I’m here, it’s very (pause) it’s like we’re just hanging out, you know what I mean? Yeah, I don’t get I’ve wandered about that too. It’s like, ah, man. I mean, I do feel very deep (laughter) things, but I’m just not moved to, you know. And those times that I was, it just kind of happened. I couldn’t control it, you know what I mean? But there haven’t been other times when there was one time, a few weeks ago, when I bought up my grandmother? I did feel like I could have cried, maybe, you know. But even then, it didn’t, like I would have been okay to shed a few tears. I just didn’t, you know. [00:48:35]

So I have thought about them. Like, am I not feeling things enough? (Laughter) (inaudible 48:41) I know I am, you know what I mean. I don’t know how much more I could.

THERAPIST: [A lot] (ph).

CLIENT: I guess. Fuck. I guess so.

THERAPIST: Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks, Claire. It’s good to see you.

THERAPIST: You too.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend. One o’clock, right?

THERAPIST: Yes. (inaudible 49:08)

CLIENT: See you then.

END TRANSCRIPT