TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: This is for July.

CLIENT: Okay, thanks. What’s up?

THERAPIST: Nothing.

CLIENT: What? (Laughter)

THERAPIST: No, nothing.

CLIENT: You’re like, “Aw.” (Laughter)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 00:23) just saying [if you’re] (ph) just trying to break even right now. Even if you’re not paying down, that’s the amount owed for July and (inaudible 00:32) last week.

CLIENT: Okay, cool. Yeah, I bought a check, and then I can give you another one Friday. What’s happening?

THERAPIST: Not much.

CLIENT: I’m psyched to be here. I feel like it was a long time, since I only saw you once last week. So, doing okay. It’s just a transitional time, man. I’m in, like, this weird (pause) I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s hard to explain. I think about it. I’m like, “How am I feeling today?” I can’t (laughter) Sunday, I was feeling kind of depressed. I got depressed Sunday, but a lot of that is because it’s Sunday. Some Sundays, I just get kind of melancholy. [00:01:36]

In general, it’s hard. Like, I think I’m doing well. I was thinking about this the other day. I went fishing over the weekend, right. So I’m going fishing no, and even before fishing, the day before I went fishing, my friend this is one of my older Assyrian friends. Awesome, awesome guy. He’s the guy I went to his wedding in Cairo. He married his kindergarten sweetheart or whatever. And he’s a complete flake. I mean, this guy I don’t know how you can get to that age, have a wife and children and be so flakey, but we love him, because he’s just such a sweet person.

But he had texted me Friday evening, and he was like, “I’m out fishing. Come,” you know. It was beautiful out, whatever, so I was like, “Yeah, awesome.” So I go to cast a line, and of course, then I stopped hearing back from him. I’m like, “Dude, I’m fucking here. I’m here now.” Nothing. Now, not only did I not get upset, I was like, “Well, you know what, I’m here. It’s beautiful outside.” I got out. I had myself a lobster roll from a local bar. I just walked around. I took pictures of the sunset. And I was thinking about this on the way back. I was like, “Now, what’s going on here?” [00:02:54]

Like, in some ways, I feel like I’m trying to find ways to say that I’m not feeling so great. I’m so used to it. You know what I mean? You know what I’m saying? Like, I’m so hardwired to be like, “Yeah.” (Mumbling) It’s my mother’s side, you know. But it’s like, what? The water is beautiful. I’m here. I’m not having an anxiety attack. It’s not even crossing my mind. I’m just here, you know. I’m not upset that Louis (sp?) is being Louis. I was texting my friend. I’m like, “Here’s a good Louis story for you.” And that was that. Like, it didn’t…

And then the next day he called me, and we did go fishing. We went to the Canal, you know. I was like, “Wow, look at me. I’m fishing.” Like, I haven’t done that since I was a kid, you know. And I’m having a great time and not I was in no way feeling anything. I was just there, fishing, you know. Enjoying it. So I guess what I’m trying to say is maybe (pause) what I’m feeling a lot of is more of, like, a weird disconnect between the fact that I’m, I guess, doing pretty well and that I’m hardwired to think I’m not doing well. That’s some articulate shit right there, right? You know what I’m saying?

THERAPIST: Even just, like, what is so constantly in your mind is to evaluate whether you’re doing -

CLIENT: That too, that I’m constantly scanning to see how am I feeling. I mean, I’m doing it here, but out there, I’m doing it less. Yeah, less.

THERAPIST: And even in here. I think that’s, in a way, one of the things you’re saying. What if that [isn’t meant] (ph) to be such much of a question? Of course some days are going to be worse than others.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Now, it’s like, yeah, it’s not the same thing, you know. And now, even in here, it’s not so much scanning. I think in the past, it really was like a scan, literally. Like, why does my hand feel weird? [00:05:02]

THERAPIST: Even of (ph) your body, yeah.

CLIENT: Everything, you know. Now it’s more like now it’s just contemplation kind of, you know. Now it’s just more like introspection or, you know, whatever.

THERAPIST: And what more is there beyond -

CLIENT: Yeah, like, now -

THERAPIST: (inaudible 05:19) not well.

CLIENT: Yeah, now things are kind of good, I guess, you know. I don’t know. Another weird thing. I bought there’s a really great book on life coaching, but also as the business component of I think I told you about it, right? I bought it on what day it was, I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Friday (ph).

CLIENT: Right. Now, all this ADD talk yeah, right, I bought it before I came here. All this ADD talk, right, I read the book. I just read it, you know what I mean. So I was, like, laughing at myself. I’m like, you know, I’m reading it at the coffee shop. I read it at home. I read it why? You know what I mean? Like, why am I suddenly so interested? I’m totally focused. I’m reading the book. And I’m not worried about am I really getting what it’s saying or am I I’m just reading it, you know.

So that’s another interesting thing, you know. It’s like, well, it’s because I’m finally motivated to do something that I am motivated to do. I’m not trying to please anybody. I’m not trying to I’m not half faking it, you know. So that’s another interesting thing. It was also a good sign that that means I’m on the right path. Do you know what I’m saying? If this was a half-baked idea, you know. But, you know. So…

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like it feels like it’s really yours and you’re choosing, you’re making. It’s not about -

CLIENT: And then it’s not some just foofy (ph), abstract aspiration, you know. It’s becoming more and more of a concrete, like, business plan, you know. There’s that. Then the other big thing. This one’s a little kind of crazy. I don’t know. But why not? I thought about it. So remember on Friday, we were like, “Oh, maybe you feel,” you know. “Like, what if you had studied psychology?” Remember that? So when I (chuckles) got home, I’m like, “Wait a second.” So I was like, “Maybe I should.” You know what I mean? [00:07:32]

So I remembered that my friend Stephen’s sister just finished her PhD in psychology at UConn. And I was like, “Maybe UConn’s going to come through again for me.” So I looked at their program. I was like, “Maybe I should fucking do this. I don’t know.” If anyone would be good at this and has the right background, I think it’s me. I just can’t afford I mean, someone has to pay for it. What do you think? Is that crazy? And of course, I did all this research about, like, is it stupid to go become a psychologist when you’re, like, 40 years old?

THERAPIST: It’s a big investment. I think it would have to (inaudible 08:17) know about. What it means to, what it would be for you. What the conscious layers (inaudible 08:24) the unconscious layers (inaudible 08:25).

CLIENT: I mean, I just feel like, for the first time, it would be a combination of practicality and passion, you know. And also, like, wow, I mean, then you’re talking about an amazing combo. Someone’s who studied literature, who’s a writer, you know. That’s a pretty powerful combination. And for my business. Then certified, mortified (ph), whatever. (Laughter) I mean, what’s, you know. That’d be very, very I mean, it really, like, it would be an investment in the business, I think, you know, because then I could take it to a whole other level, you know. I don’t know. But, I mean, obviously, I mean, I know that graduate school is no fucking joke. But, you know, maybe it’d be different if someone was paying for it. I’ve never had that really, you know. So that stress would be gone, you know.

THERAPIST: So are you going to get a loan or the school paying for it?

CLIENT: Every program I looked at, they pay for whoever they take, they pay for, you know. I mean, that would be a huge (pause) I mean, I’ve never had that happen, you know. Not to mention, I feel like my engagement with it would be very different. I’m in such a different I mean, it would almost be like if I went now to do a PhD, if I started all over again to do a it’s still might not be the right choice for me, but I would be a very different student, you know what I’m saying?

THERAPIST: (inaudible 09:58) in literature? Or you’re talking about if you started (crosstalk 10:00).

CLIENT: If I went back to grad school now. Let’s say I was going back to London now, you know.

THERAPIST: In writing?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I’m just saying, like, I’m just a very different person now, you know what I’m saying?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But with psychology, the interesting thing would be it’s not just about, like it’s not that half-assed like, “Well, I guess I’ll study literature, because that’s what I do.” You know what II mean? Like, there was no I didn’t really want to be a I mean, I did want to be a professor, but it was not really fully committed. If you really want to be a professor, you will go to Wisconsin or whatever the you know what I mean? So it was just kind of just winging it kind of thing.

But this would be something where, like, well, I already have a business. It’s like someone going to get an MBA, when they’ve already, you know. They just want that extra credential and expertise and, you know. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Did you ever you’d be having this conversation?

CLIENT: Nope.

THERAPIST: Five years ago?

CLIENT: No. It’s fucked up, but it feels I don’t know. Somewhat (ph), it feels (pause) and I really feel like I’d be a good candidate, you know. I’m not just some 22 year old psychology major. I mean, I think…

THERAPIST: A lot of it I mean, I’m sure you saw this when you looked. A lot of the programs are very research oriented.

CLIENT: I did notice that, yeah.

THERAPIST: Most doctorate programs are, because they’re going to pay your way, and others, you have to have a very heavy research focus while you’re doing it, and still have a research assistantship too, to earn your way through. You have to have a research-based thesis at the end. So I don’t know if that’s up your alley. (inaudible 11:46)

CLIENT: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. A lot of them are, like, the first year you have to take statistics and psychology or whatever. Yeah, there’s definitely it’s not a cakewalk. Yeah, it’s definitely not up my alley. But again, I think the difference would be (pause) it is like sucking it up in a way. It’s like saying, well, but this isn’t just like, “I just love psychology,” you know what I mean? It’s a practical decision. So fine, for two semesters, I have to suck it up and take this course. Or -

THERAPIST: I guess that’s what I’m saying. It could be more than that and probably [will go] (ph) five years.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, my dissertation has to be somehow maybe that could be very interesting. I mean, if I’m allowed to I mean, what an amazing thing. What if I did research on all these things I’m fascinated by? Doubt. Uncertainty. Anxiety. Trauma. Delayed grief. I mean, shit, there’s (pause), you know. I don’t know. Just be honest though. Should I not even think about it, or -

THERAPIST: I don’t think I mean, I’m not here to say -

CLIENT: For Christ sake. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: I am going to give you an honest opinion about some aspect of it, but what I’m saying is I don’t think you know or I could know right now whether that actually would be good for you to pursue. There’s so much more to know about it as a fit, do you know what I mean? There’s a lot to know about even, like, the reality of who get their incredibly competitive programs.

CLIENT: Yes, no doubt.

THERAPIST: Who gets in are often people who have had four years of research at NGH in the trauma lab, and that they have several publications already, and that’s how you get into graduate school.

CLIENT: What? But what’s their credentials before, you mean? They have master’s or something?

THERAPIST: No, they will have had a bachelor degree. They actually often don’t take people who have master’s degree because they can consider you’ve already fallen off the track already. If you say, for example, if you say something very honest and you tell them if you’re going into a program like that and say, “I want to be a clinician,” you won’t get accepted automatically. They want researchers.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: The whole way they pay your way is if so you get on a government funded grant. You do research the whole time you’re doing your program, about 20 hours of research a week. And then the idea is that you’re then going to be paying back the government over time by becoming a professor at an institution. You’d get your own grants and do your own research. So they really look down -

CLIENT: So what, so all these people have to kind of lie? [00:14:20]

THERAPIST: See, you know, a lot -

CLIENT: I mean, obviously, a lot of people want to do what you’re doing.

THERAPIST: Some people lie. I mean, I was young enough I didn’t know what I I thought I might have even wanted to go into research at the time.

CLIENT: So that’s what you did. I see.

THERAPIST: I just didn’t know. And I think some people find clinical work over the course of it, but I’m just saying to you as someone coming in a little bit more mid-career. This is all the kind of thing you want to be thinking about. What would you say? How do you or is a doctoral program the right fit? Would something like a social work program or licensed mental health counselor or MSPP? Psychology they won’t pay your way.

CLIENT: Yeah. See, I’m worried I already went through this master’s bullshit. I think master’s programs don’t pay you, right, so that’s the problem. I just refuse to do that again, you know.

THERAPIST: So it could be that you’d get in, but you’d really have to make you might not get in the first round of applications, and you’d have to get a year or two of experience working in a lab before getting in. That’s often what people do who don’t get in the first time around, you know, when they’re 21. A lot of people don’t get in. Then they do a couple years of research, and then reapply. Shape their interests and -

CLIENT: There are no programs that are different than that?

THERAPIST: There are a couple, but it’s a dying breed. You know, like Adelphi on Long Island is a very psychodynamic program. You’ll do some research, but it’s not as rigorously research oriented.

CLIENT: And of course, none of those are around here.

THERAPIST: Yeah, none that would pay your way. There might be some you’d look into, like BC and Suffolk. There’s still going to be some research. I think there’s going to be a stipend, but that’s the kind of thing I’m just broadening what you’re thinking about, what that actually looks like. The reason, I mean, you don’t get something for nothing.

CLIENT: Of course.

THERAPIST: The reason they’re paying your way is because there’s an expectation you’re going into being (crosstalk 16:09) ten-year track professor.

CLIENT: Well, that’s good to know. Yeah. I mean, I don’t have my heart set on it, but I think it’s worth I don’t know.

THERAPIST: It’s an idea, and it sounds like it struck a chord. You feel like that -

CLIENT: I would definitely do the master’s if someone paid for it. That’s the problem, is that, you know. (Pause) But, yeah. I mean, I guess I could look into that. Maybe they do offer some fellowships or something. Who in the hell knows? But -

THERAPIST: Look at maybe the smaller schools. Like a state school is going to be very research based. UConn is very research based. And who knows? I mean, maybe (ph) when you start looking into the research side of things, it becomes appealing? I just, like I’m just saying that’s a piece of the equation, as you’re thinking about (inaudible 17:02)

CLIENT: Yeah, or you just suck it up and say, “Okay, well, I’ll just enjoy this. I can make this work while I’m there, and then once I’m done…” (Pause) Yeah. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: You look deflated.

CLIENT: No. It’s just, you know, when I think about all these things, it’s a little it is so, like you said, like, what am I this is so different than, you know. No, no, I’m deflated. And that’s the thing I don’t really (pause) that’s a good thing these days. I’m not really extreme either way, you know what I mean? I think it’d be a good idea, maybe, to look into. But it really just is a practical decision. I just want my business to work. And I am finding that I think it will work. It’s just going to be harder for me, I think, because I have to why are people going to see me? You know, I’m literally telling people to see me because of, yes, I did go to graduate school, blah, blah, blah. But it’s really, I’m just saying, “Here’s my overall package as a person, you know. I feel qualified to do this.” That’s kind of like I’m very confident. It could take longer though, you know.

But, yeah. I don’t know. Yeah, maybe it’s worth looking into, like, a master’s thing. (Pause) I also sent an e-mail to London, because they had sent me an e-mail several months ago, saying it’s kind of like what I got from Brown. It’s kind of like, “Well, you’re not here, you know. So you’re not here,” you know. But I’d written to the new guy that’s running the because Jason retired. So I didn’t hear back, so I’m going to write to the woman above him and just be like, “Look. What do I need to do to -” I mean, you know? I just want to finish this fucking thing. Can I just write my dissertation and, you know. She’s a very nice lady and, you know, I think she’d, you know. I’m just going to be honest. Say, “Look. I’m not from the UK. Financially, it was very difficult. It was very stressful, but I’m in a much better situation now overall. Financially, not so much, but in other,” you know. I just want to finish. I’m just so close, you know. [00:19:49]

THERAPIST: What’s left? Just writing -

CLIENT: I mean, the coursework’s done, but even in the coursework, there were essays and stuff that I missed and all that. It didn’t seem to matter, kind of. It’s fucking UK. I don’t know. But, to me, that’s all really, those essays are just part of your dissertation. It’s kind of smart in a way. Basically, what they’re saying is every semester, it’s as if you’re writing this tiny chapter, and hopefully that turns into you know what I mean? It’s just writing, and everything’s done. I’ve done the coursework. I’ve, you know. Not to mention, I mean, the other fucking students. Like, come on. I published with, you know. I mean, like, (laughter) I deserve to finish this fucking thing. So…

THERAPIST: And yet, you still have to do the work.

CLIENT: Yeah, well the thing is now, like I said, I’m in such a different place now, it’ll get done. If I just knew how I could get -

THERAPIST: [Like these will be] (ph) the steps?

CLIENT: Yeah, like, let me know how to do this, and then I’ll do it, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that seems like the most obvious, like the easiest, in a way, to add this credential to your resume.

CLIENT: Right, instead of just saying, I went to graduate school, you know, these are the actual degrees. You know, yeah. See, with UConn -

THERAPIST: And not to mention that you’d then have something you could publish (inaudible 21:12).

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 21:15)

CLIENT: Right, right. Same with UConn. And they’re always very nice. I’m like, “Look, you know. Situations are very different now. I know it’s been a long time, but, I mean, I did everything. I just didn’t hand in my master’s thesis. Come on, like, you know, there has to be a way to do the you know. Was there a statute of limitations on come on. And they’re always very nice, but nothing I never hear a concrete like, “Okay, this is what you need to do.” So I’m going to try that again as well, you know. Just -

THERAPIST: Meaning that they don’t get back to you or -

CLIENT: They initially get back. They say, “Oh, yeah. You know, we can totally, you know.” And then I follow, “Thank you. That’s awesome. Please just let me know what steps I -” and then I don’t hear back.

THERAPIST: You can march on into their office if you need to. (Chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah, I might do that. Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you want to.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, I don’t buy it. There’s always a way come on. There’s always a way.

THERAPIST: Have they said there isn’t a way.

CLIENT: They haven’t, but I think I did read somewhere you know grad schools have these things where if it takes more than five years, then, you know. I don’t buy any of that. There’s always someone that can the dean or whatever. You know what I mean? There’s always someone that can be like, “Wait a second.” Because it’s good for them. They want to be able to say people graduated. Like, “We put,” you know. And again, especially I feel like I’m look, I’m a published I mean, I came out of your program. I published a book of I mean, I’m doing things. I need to hand this fucking thing in, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that sounds like that’s hard to negotiate over e-mail.

CLIENT: I guess. Yeah, maybe this time -

THERAPIST: (inaudible 23:03)

CLIENT: Maybe this time I’ll be like, you know, “I’d love to come in and, you know.” I’ve even told them. I said, “Look, I talked to Chuck. He’s my mentor.” He’s my, you know. I was like, “He’s totally fine with it. I just need to know what to do.” But anyway, in other words, I’m being, you know. I printed out my new poetry manuscript. I have plenty of pages. It’s just not, you know. So I’m going to finally get that going. I think I do need to I’m scared to e-mail Jason and be like, “Do you want to publish my second -” you know, like, are my publisher now, or still? [00:23:44]

So yeah. So I mean, there’s just a lot going on. All positive, but it’s just a lot. The other negative not so much negative. The only, like, kind of difficult thing is some days, I do, maybe because I am doing better and better, I do feel more lonely, kind of. That’s been kind of tough, you know. I think it’s’ just hard to not share with somebody. (Pause) And yet, I know I’m being healthy about it, because I’m not willy nilly just finding some girlfriend, you know.

THERAPIST: Say more about lonely. What’s -

CLIENT: I’m just lonely. I mean, you know, it’s hard. Like, I just feel ready to have a normal situation. As normal as you can get, you know. So it’s just I mean, even the girl in Delaware, you know, whatever. She might come Sunday to hang out for a day or two. That’s fine, but (pause), you know, how is that going to work? That’s not, you know. She’s great, but…

Like, I think I’m finally accepting that I’m always going to have this kind of sadness and conflict about, like, Assyrian, not Assyrian. Like, there’s just no I can’t seem to figure that out, you know, and there’s no easy answer, you know. Did I tell you what my priest said to me, at the coffee shop? [00:25:50]

THERAPIST: Your priest?

CLIENT: Well, I mean, technically. I don’t go to church, but the church that we belong to, whatever, in Cheshire? So I ran into Father I’m trying to think. Larry. That’s his name. So I ran into at the coffee shop. He’s such a nice man, such a nice man. I’m like, “Oh,” you know. And then I’m just because of my uncle and my family, there’s always a reference for clergy, especially when you can tell they’re a good person, because they’re all just fucking businessmen now, you know. But the ones who are very sweet and, you know. So I see him. He’s getting his coffee, whatever, and we’re just talking. He had stomach whatever, you know. (Pause) When people are fat, they get that surgery, whatever that is?

So, you know, he just looks completely so I’m always, you know, “How’s your health? How are you feeling?” Whatever. So that was about it, whatever. I was about to go back to where I was sitting, and he’s like, “Brian, I want to tell you something.” He’s like, you know, I know I don’t post on -” We’re Facebook friends. (Chuckles) He’s like, you know, “I don’t really do anything on Facebook, really. It’s just not my style or whatever.” But he’s like, you know, “When all that stuff was happening with the attacks in Cheshire and everything,” he’s like, “I really want to tell you, like, you were writing a lot of things that really were very powerful.” And he’s like, “And I use some of it in my sermon.” (Laughter)

I was like, “What?” It was the sweetest I was like, “That’s an incredible honor. That’s unbelievable.” He’s like, “Yeah, I just wanted to say that it was very, very insightful, very moving stuff that you wrote.” That is so cool. So cool.

THERAPIST: That a priest is using it in a sermon. It (ph) says something. [00:27:40]

CLIENT: Yeah, so that was another way I felt like, okay, so I’m on the right (pause), you know. I’m on the right path. There’s something that I think I can somehow help people or speak to them and, like, connect with them. But yeah, I was like, what an honor. That was awesome. Especially someone I like, you know. Like, he’s such a good guy. So…

THERAPIST: You should be a priest.

CLIENT: My cousin was like, “Dude, just be a priest.” (Laughter) “They make money. You can get married.” Assyrian priests get married.

THERAPIST: They do? Ha.

CLIENT: Yeah, the Assyrian church is really amazing. It really is the great if you’re a Christian, it’s unreal. They take no position on abortion. They take no position on premarital sex. They just kind of they do like, you know, like, “We just don’t involved,” you know. They take no position on homosexuality. It’s unreal. It’s unreal. They are such for such an ancient church, they’re unbelievable. They have a really, like, a you know, it’s not like they’re going around with the gay flag and shit, obviously. I mean, there’s a lot of conservative people. But it’s kind of like a (pause) live and let live or don’t ask don’t tell kind of thing, you know, which is amazing for a very you know, they’re not some Unitarian I mean, this is a hardcore ancient tradition, you know. So yeah, no, they’re pretty amazing. They’re pretty amazing. [00:29:22]

THERAPIST: I don’t know how this sounds, like a naïve (ph) question about it, but the church, is it a particular religion?

CLIENT: Apostolic. It’s kind of like Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox, but it’s a little bit older.

THERAPIST: Okay. Does that mean more conservative?

CLIENT: No, it just means more ritualistic. So the idea is that Assyrians got Christianity directly from two of the apostles. Like, it’s way back, way back. Very beautiful. Like, there’s a lot of pageantry, but not in a Catholic way. It’s not like this kind of intimidating, scary kind of it’s just the music is mind-blowingly beautiful. There’s a lot of mysticism. There’s still some pagan things that have been incorporated. The colors, like the stuff the I mean, it’s pretty amazing. I mean, you could go to Mass just for, like, it’s almost like a meditation kind of. There’s no confession. They don’t believe in confession. I mean, you could go and see the priest and talk to him, but, you know, it’s like, you want to confess, just (chuckles) tell God your problems. There’s not a lot of guilt. The sermons aren’t about feeling guilty and wicked and…

THERAPIST: Not sinning.

CLIENT: What’s that?

THERAPIST: Not sinning.

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s not. There’s a lot of, like, you know, brotherly love and just being a good person. It’s pretty yeah.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 31:24) craziest idea I’ve ever heard, you (inaudible 31:25) priest.

CLIENT: I’d be a great priest. Ah, man, are you kidding? I’d be a great. Priest. But I also know what it once you get into it, it’s like anything else, right?

THERAPIST: [I think, yes sir] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. You’re going to have a a lot of those people don’t care, you know. They just come. For a lot of people, it’s a social hour, you know. And, you know, there’s politics. There’s office, you know what I mean, committees and meetings and fucking crap. Yeah. I’d be a good, like, monk, (chuckles) you know what I mean? But that’s serious shit. I mean, they’ve always wanted anyone in my family, because of my uncle.

THERAPIST: I’m sure.

CLIENT: Yeah, they’ve always, you know. My cousin who’s at MSU now, the professor, the jackass? You know, they kind of wanted him. They wanted me. They wanted my dad, you know. Not to be a priest, but the idea was, you know, you’ll be groomed. Groomed? Yeah, you’ll be groomed to be like my uncle, that hopefully, you know. That has to be a calling. That’s not a, you know. Even if you could be good at it, you know what I mean? It’s not the same thing.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: I wonder what it’s like talking about all this. (inaudible 33:16) just the nuts and bolts of what actual graduate psychology program -

CLIENT: It’s just a lot, yeah. It’s a lot. It makes my head hurt a little bit. But I think I’m in this place now where I know that big changes are coming. I am definitely antsy. Like, you know, things are already changing here, but I’m excited. I’m nervous. I’m antsy. I’m energized. I’m highly (chuckles) motivated. So it’s like I just, [you know] (ph). I am a little overwhelmed. I mean, I need to keep things kind of compartmental. You know, there’s music. It’s a lot of stuff, you know. But…

THERAPIST: You know, as we’re talking about the alumnus that comes up, in some ways even more you become aware of it, as things get better, that I think as certain parts of yourself can develop and grow, you become more aware. Not just you people become more aware of what was missing all along. There’s so much right now, even just as you were talking about some of these ideas and then talking them through out loud. It just reminds me of what’s been missing for you and your family, about guidance and support.

CLIENT: Yeah. See, that’s the thing. Look how easy it is, you know what I mean? If I had just been raised in a way that was, like, “You’re so talented. Absolutely. You’re going to do music, write, you know. What can we think of? You know, have you thought about maybe how could you use your skills in a way that you make money and you’re happy?” You know what I mean? It’s so easy. It’s so, you know. But this, like, black and white bullshit that they, that they still have, you know.

THERAPIST: Instead of, like, taking your good idea and then helping (inaudible 35:26), think about (inaudible 35:27). How do you make that practical?

CLIENT: It automatically has to be, like, “Well, no, those are just hobbies. Get over it. Those are little hobbies. You can do them on the weekends, but you need a (mumbling).” You know, like, it’s all this fucking nonsense, you know. And they’re still, you know. My uncle’s kind of gone back to being like that now. The richer he’s gotten, he’s become, like, this very, you know. He’s kind of gone back to being a Republican in a way. It’s like, you know, this is a country of opportunity. Just work hard and (mumbling), you know. It’s just so fucking 1980, you know what I mean? It’s like, come on, man. Clearly, that’s not the case, you know.

You know, complaining about taxes and this. It’s like, “Dude. (Chuckles) You can pay 50 percent. Obviously you’re doing fine. You can’t just buy a house on that street and complain about taxes. I’m sorry. You just can’t. You have to suck it up, you know.” So, like, it’s just this very rigid, you know. And, you know, I guess a lot of immigrants are that way, you know. They don’t know how else to think of it. Because in a way, this, what we’re talking about, is kind of a luxurious way of thinking, you know what I mean? Not a lot of immigrants can think that. They have to be so enlightened and so kind of quirky almost like my dad’s side. Just innately kind of eccentric and mellow. I don’t know what.

But, you know, for most immigrants, it’s like survival, you know. We busted our ass. We’ve come, you know, from a really shitty background. It’s just about we just want to breathe and have some fucking money.

THERAPIST: When (ph) it becomes necessarily so practical to (ph) survive.

CLIENT: Yeah, because they stay in a bubble kind of. Like music, whatever, these things seem like alien, you know. That’s what trust fund and a lot of that is true, of course. I mean, no one’s doubting that. I think a lot of artists, they do come from some money, you know. There’s no doubt about it. Some successful artists, they’re able to stick with it because there is some monetary support, you know. But that’s neither here nor there. That’s like saying some people are CEOs because they were born into wealthy families. I mean, that’s so what? A lot of people aren’t that way and they still, you know. But they don’t have that nuanced way of thinking. Everything is very, you know. [00:38:05]

I guess the difference now though is I don’t feel so (pause) sad when I think of all that, you know what I mean? I almost feel, like, relief that, oh my god, like, now I’m here (chuckles), and I’ve got a plan, you know what I mean? I don’t feel so, you know.

THERAPIST: It’s usually relieving (ph) and freeing too. It’s not haunting [you anymore] (ph).

CLIENT: No, no. I just kind of feel like, “Ah, that was a bummer. That shouldn’t have happened.” And then there was a lot of shitty stuff. But because now I have so extricated myself, I don’t really call my uncle anymore to have a coffee. I’m just kind of done, you know what I mean? I’ll show up to family things if I have to, whatever. But I just I don’t want to waste my energy anymore, you know, because I just see them (pause), you know. My uncle’s like a broken man with Type 2 diabetes, and it’s like everyone’s just you know what I mean?

Honestly, other than my mom and my grandmother. You know, my mom’s kind of come a ways. And my grandmother’s still a tough cookie, you know. Everyone else, I feel like, is just, you know. I don’t know. And even with my mom, you know, I gauge her, you know. When I say hi, I can tell. If she’s going to start bitching and moaning, I’m out of there, you know. I don’t let it get to me at all anymore the same way I used to. And I don’t I’m not angry about my grandmother, you know. I’ve done a pretty good job of just completely cutting they’re old. Even my mom. I mean, God forbid. You know, one day she’s not going to be she’s fucking 70. I mean, you have to it is kind of liberating, in a way, to just be like, “Okay, things these are the phases of life, and you have to, you know. You can’t take things personally or dwell on them or, you know.” [00:40:22]

(Silence)

But yeah, I think, you know, I think that’s the loneliness part though is that, I think, (pause) I think it’s a beautiful thing when you have a healthy relationship. You know, people have each other’s back, you know what I mean? So that’s what kind of bums me out, you know. It’s nice to (pause) instead of all this being in your head and just kind of sorting it out on your own, it’s nice to just have someone who’s kind of cheering you on and, you know. That’s just a bummer, you know. Because that’s one thing I have liked about all the girls I’ve dated, you know. They have all been very excited for things I’m doing and, you know, that’s a good feeling.

(Silence)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 42:03) for you to be known for you, and then to be really be excited about you.

CLIENT: Yeah, and also, it’s a nice feeling. Then it’s not just about you. You can care for someone else, you know what I mean? It just, you know. I mean, obviously, it’s different, in a way, but that’s why I love my cat, you know. It’s just like that I don’t think about these things, you know. I’m just petting her. I’m just, you know. I have to feed her, you know. I have (chuckles) you know what I mean? That’s a really nice feeling, you know. So you get out of yourself a little bit, and there’s this exchange of energy.

THERAPIST: [See you tomorrow] (ph).

CLIENT: 11:50? No, 12:50.

THERAPIST: 12:50.

CLIENT: Damn (ph). Thanks, Claire. Have a good one.

END TRANSCRIPT