TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I got bit at my friend's house.

THERAPIST: Oh!

CLIENT: He had a barbecue. Sorry.

THERAPIST: [Dog bite?] (ph)

CLIENT: It is all nasty. How is it going?

THERAPIST: Good. It has been a while.

CLIENT: (yawn) Yeah. I know. I missed you. Oh man. (yawns) Sorry. I am tired. Was it good?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Good vacation?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What's going on? Um. (sound of tapping) (sigh) I am getting, I am looking at office spaces. So that is good. It is time to jump in. So I did that whole thing, like looking for people that are subletting hours or blocks of time or whatever. I looked at one yesterday but it was kind of Great location but kind of frumpy and a little hippie-ish or something. It wasn't. Do you know?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Alright. And tomorrow I am looking at a place at the Square. Do you know them? I think they are on Bunker too. So I am going to do that. I got my first potential kind of client situation. So. I don't know. [00:01:30]

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, my social worker friend referred someone. Actually it was really ironic too because (laughs) I had to quickly figure out She wanted to barter. She was like, "You know, I don't know. I could teach you yoga or whatever." So it was really ironic because I did a quick I was like, "You know what? I should figure out how this works for therapists and whatever."

So it was ironic on different levels. Because one, of course it made me think of here. I felt shitty because I am like, "Man, Claire is doing me a huge favor." You know? So it may be even more appreciated. I mean, not that I am not, obviously. But it just reminded me of how appreciative I am, whatever. Then it made me feel like shit that you even have to do that. I don't know.

So I was reading about all that stuff and there were a lot of helpful things, though, out there. My instinct was right. Most people are like, "Do not do that." But a lot of them were more like, "Don't do it." But then on the other hand have a system. Like tell yourself I am going to allow three patients. Like whatever roster of patients, clients in my case, that you have. I am going to allow for three to be reduced. Do you know what I mean? Like I want to be able to help people. [00:02:56]

THERAPIST: Do reduced fees.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is different than bartering.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. No bartering. No, no, no. Hell no. No, but what I looked up was sliding scale and Because there was stuff I hadn't even thought of. Things like, you know, okay, you reduce your fee but then if you are trying to help people, you don't want to be resentful. You know?

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: And for some reason that didn't cross my mind. But, you know, you don't want to feel like, you know. Especially with what I am doing because there is no insurance. There is no Do you know what I mean? It is nice to have the flexibility of once in a while you can try to help someone out but as long as there is some insurance coverage. I mean, do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, yeah, I don't know. So that kind of felt. So I told her, "I can't do much below this." You know, whatever. So it made me realize it is going to be tricky, I think, in the beginning. That is where all the marketing And you really want to go after people, you want to reach out to people that that is your market. Those are your Do you know what I mean? [00:04:07]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Unfortunately, yeah, people like me can't really afford. You know? Because those people need to get paid because there is no other way for them to get compensated. So, I don't know. So it was a little tricky. You know?

THERAPIST: It seems like it also brings up feelings about here.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just felt like shit. I was like, "This just sucks." You know? I was like. Yeah, because I was like, "I wonder how many people Claire is doing that for." And, "I am sure it is not easy for her." And I just, I don't know, it just sucks. (pause)

THERAPIST: You feel like shit. What does that mean?

CLIENT: Well it is just awful. I mean, basically you're, from my perspective, it is almost free that you are doing it for. You know? So it just, it would be nice to be able to just pay things without worrying about paying things. You know? [00:05:12]

Especially like lately it has gotten kind of particularly difficult the last few weeks. I don't know. So I am kind of paying a couple of things. Like now I am paying our Internet. I am paying her landline and the Internet and her credit card and all the utilities. Yeah.

THERAPIST: [And how?] (ph)

CLIENT: Whatever I have is going to pay bills. I don't really have. I mean I am not really doing much. You know? Like I have kind of hunkered down. I see my Assyrian friends and stuff because we either don't do anything expensive or they are just really nice and they will kind of pay for me or whatever. They are like family. You know, they know the situation I am in. (pause) So. [00:6:20]

Yeah, that part has been tough. I have been feeling a lot of anxiety. I mean I would be feeling really anxious anyway just because everything is happening. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, yeah, the money. Then I feel guilty. I am like, "Am I being an asshole for not working at the supermarket or something?" I don't know. I am applying to things that are way, way below. You know, office admin stuff. I even changed my resume to kind of I basically took off, took out a lot of my education.

Even though that is kind of difficult because when they ask, "What have you been doing?" I can't not, you know. I can't say, "Oh, yeah, for three years I was doing " You know, I was in grad school. So it is kind of hard to, I don't know. (pause) But that is also really motivating to get the business going. You know? I don't know. [00:07:27]

I have been applying to teaching jobs. I organized that. I applied to a couple of adjunct jobs and even that I mean, on a whim at the University of San Diego, there is a really good creative writing position. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Hm!

CLIENT: And I was like, "Fuck it. I am going to apply." I don't give a shit. I am qualified. (pause)

THERAPIST: I think there has been so much feeling about this, about money, that it is almost hard to look at it and think about and talk about because the feelings are just [overwhelming.] (ph) So there may be sort of bubbles you can get into if you don't have to think about it too much. You know, it is new for me to hear you say, "Should I be thinking about the supermarket." You know? Like, "What would somebody else do in my shoes. This is the scenario." [00:08:27]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The reality of what you have pay for. The reality of paying for here. The reality of this is really reduced fee.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, it is a lot. It carries a lot of feeling that it is hard to let yourself really think about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Well I think because you have got to add to that I mean it is a complicated thing too. Do you know what I mean? Some other people would work at I mean obviously someone is working at the supermarket. You know? But then you have to add to that, yeah, but a lot I mean, this is the trick, I think, of living here a little bit is that that is a solution. You know, you can cover some expenses and things like that.

However, the price you pay for that is that that is a whole other level of stress because now you are locked into a whacky schedule, a shitty job, feeling subservient. You are fucking in your forties and you are bagging some eighteen year old's groceries. You know? Taking away from, sapping your creativity. Taking away from other projects that really mean something to you. It is a very complicated thing. You know? [00:09:47]

That is why I feel like the compromise is, I mean, I have been applying to a lot of things that I am way over qualified for. I feel like that is a pretty big compromise. Or tutoring. You know, and I have told Matthew I have told You know, I would be happy to tutor. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. And that is a compromise you hadn't moved to quite as much.

CLIENT: Yeah. No I wasn't. I gave myself some time to kind of whatever. But, yeah, now it is like, I mean, I need something to, yeah. I mean I just need to do something. You know? So it wasn't that I wasn't applying to things before but it was a little bit half assed. But now it is like a full assault kind of. You know? (pause) [00:10:47]

And on the other hand, reminding myself that somehow things are getting done. You know? I have got a roof over my head. Somehow things are It is not perfect, they need to improve but I have got to say I am kind of impressed that with less money than I was making before, you know, in a very rickety way, things are kind of staying afloat. You know? I have not asked my Mom for anything. I haven't asked anybody for anything. You know?

THERAPIST: What do you mean by a very rickety way?

CLIENT: I just mean that it is not the way I want it to be. You know? I don't want to have to really, really stress when I either give you a check or I send off a bill somewhere. I am like, "Fuck. So, alright, after I send this I am going to have like five dollars. But okay, in two days will get my unemployment so I have just got to just chill out for two days." You know? [00:11:48]

That is not an idea situation. But that somehow it is getting done. But that also means that, well, then I should, now that I feel way more urgency then you have got to take advantage of that time to really just And I am just applying everywhere. You know? (pause)

THERAPIST: You mentioned, thinking about your own business, not wanting to resent your clients.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I wonder if it made you wonder about that here. Do I feel that? Did that cross your mind.

CLIENT: Nah. No, no. No because you know what you are doing. Like you are professional. You have been doing this a while. Yeah. No. It is more the other way. I am more -

THERAPIST: It is new to you to think about it. [00:12:58]

CLIENT: Well that and also I think it just, you know, it is embarrassing kind of. Like when I really think about it I remember what a big deal is. I mean I always know that it is a big deal that you are so kind about that. But then I, it is just kind of embarrassing. "Well, Claire is really going out of her way and I wish this could change soon." You know? That would be really nice. You know? So. Yeah. I don't know.

Then I think a lot of the other reason I have been feeling extra anxious lately is I am, for some reason I feel kind of my Dad, just haunted by how it was with money in my family and how stressful it was. And how stressed my Dad was the few years before he died with his arm injury. I don't know. Like that scares me. You know? I'm a little scared. Yeah, it brings up a little bit of the hypochondria (ph). [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: Your health.

CLIENT: Yeah, my health. Like that is so bad for you to be so stressed and under so much pressure. You know? It is like, oh. Welcome to most people's lives, but -

THERAPIST: Money is stressful for people.

CLIENT: Yeah, money is very stressful. And it also, I think what is happening is it is really hitting home for me how times are fucked. We are living in some fucked up times. When you are not getting one call back. I don't know how much more of a good candidate you are supposed to be for a job. I mean, it is, honestly, it is kind of terrifying. You know? it really is kind of scary.

Luckily I think I have the personality where it is about I am proactive and I have a lot of skills and I know that things will be okay. But this is some scary shit. You know? This is. You know, office jobs. Are you kidding me? I mean (pause) [00:15:08]

THERAPIST: It is scary when someone who is a PhD candidate or you are under qualified for an office job. You know, there is a person who has ten years' experience working in an office.

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Or who is, you know, 22 and we don't have to pay that much. You know? Whatever. But also I think what I am saying though is it is also scary that even when I lie on my resume. I have a whole other resume that just looks like some dude that worked at some little rinky dink school or whatever. You know, that is fucked up. I mean, you know? I don't know. (sigh) Yeah, the important thing is just to breathe. (laughs)

Now the upside is my novel is really coming together. I shit you not.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. I have got character names, I have got character bios, year of birth, year of death. I am working with the local historian at Cheshire Library. I know where one of the main character's works. He is going to work in a local, there used to be a hood (ph) rubber plant where, kind of behind the old Mall. That whole big area, there used to be a big hood (ph) rubber plant. [00:16:29]

So one of my characters is going to be working there. Yeah, and I talked to, I finally got through. So they hooked me up with some archival things. Project Save in Cheshire, which is a photography archive, local. Yeah, it is all coming together. The book is going to have photos in it. So, you know, I mean obviously they will be fake. Not fake, the photos are real, but I will have some picture of a dude who is not really the dude. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But, yeah, some of my There is one writer who I love who does that. And it is also helping me to write. So, yeah, five pages a day. I went back to doing it handwritten. Yeah, so I just look at photos and I -

THERAPIST: You've been writing it too.

CLIENT: Five pages a day.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yep, yep. I started last Monday or Tuesday. Yup. A lot of it, I mean it is garbage. A lot of it is I will just write, like I am sitting at the coffee shop. But it doesn't matter. [00:17:50]

THERAPIST: That counts.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That is not not writing.

CLIENT: Totally. Or I will just write about the book. Like I started writing, "Maybe this is the character's name. He works at the rubber factory. He came to Cheshire this year," or whatever. Just writing about the characters. (pause) Yeah, no, it has been a -

And then I created a Tumbler to help me with ideas. And the Tumblr is just based at the coffee shop where I go every day by my house. I am taking photographs with my iPhone (laughs) and then writing. It is like a photo essay.

THERAPIST: That is what a Tumblr is? I don't know what a Tumblr is.

CLIENT: Oh a Tumblr is just a blog.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It is just a blog. But a lot of people, it is like the new, it is not that new now, but it is a very popular format.

THERAPIST: Of blogging.

CLIENT: Of blogging, yeah. And a lot of people, it is very visually kind of striking so you can do a lot of interesting things. So, yeah, so I am doing that where I have a little bit about myself and the history of Cheshire and being bicultural. And how this coffee shop, I have come to realize, is really a cross section now of these old fogies who I have known since I was a little kid. [00:19:09]

And now all these new kinds of people moving into town and how that all reflects on my, on the one hand, feeling so Assyrian but not really. And feeling kind of stuck. So, yeah, I secretly take photos with my iPhone. And the ones that I like the composition or how they came out I put them up and then I write a little something. I haven't shown it to anybody but it is just something to help me.

THERAPIST: Is it the shop on Mount Street?

CLIENT: You know when you go down Mount Street into Cheshire you get to a 7-11 on your right?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It is across the street from 7-11.

CLIENT: Exactly. The town diner. I live two blocks from there.

THERAPIST: I have been there but I thought that was the shop you always talked about.

CLIENT: No shit. You have been in there?

THERAPIST: Of course. A few times.

CLIENT: That is crazy. I have never seen you in there.

THERAPIST: It is not that I am in there all the time. But I remember going in there a couple of years ago and thinking that was your shop.

CLIENT: That is my shop, yeah. Yeah, I live, you know if you keep going up there is a florist. Yep. Then a medical building.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Yep. That is on your left, the medical building, a little row of little shops at the corner by the medical building, the first house next to that is my house. [00:20:25]

THERAPIST: So on the corner, sort of on the corner? Or do you have to turn down the street.

CLIENT: You have to turn but it is basically on the corner, yeah.

THERAPIST: I see. Hm.

CLIENT: Right when that row of shops, there is like a tailor shop and then at the end there is a lawyer shop right after the medical building. And my house is right there. So, yeah, I am there like every day.

THERAPIST: I could see the old man you always talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I have been, you know. So I mean it has been, in a weird way, it has been good. Do you know what I mean? We played our show outdoors in Union.

THERAPIST: Hm. Wow.

CLIENT: We played a square festival. There was a lot of people. It went really, really well. But, again, even when we were playing I thought I had a little panic attack or something. That was a little unusual. I think it was maybe because of the sun.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I was really sweaty but, I don't know.

THERAPIST: In the middle of the show? [00:21:29]

CLIENT: While we were playing, like while I was singing, I felt like I was having shortness of breath and just something. You know? That hadn't happened before but I think it is just a lot of heightened anxiety. You know? Sometimes I am waking up feeling anxious, like a little tightness and just feeling kind of (pause)

I think it is because there is a lot of good stuff. It is just there is a lot going on and I feel pretty good kind of. You know, things are very quiet. I just see a couple of my Assyrian friends. I don't go out very often. I don't know. Something. (pause) And I feel lonely and stuff kind of, I mean in the female front. That's the same but (pause) [00:22:35]

And I think a lot of it is just fear. You know, I am taking on a lot of things that might not work. Right? There is always the possibility.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So that is just really scary. I mean in a way it is kind of ballsy to get an office with no clients. Right? That is ballsy. But now that I see how affordable it is I just kind of feel like, you know what? These things don't I am not going to pick it off a tree. You have got to dive in. You have got to, you know.

The more legitimate you make it the more things start happening. You know? For example, the one woman, when I called and we talked she was like, "We'd actually love to have a life coach in here." She was like, "There are times when we need to refer people." You know, the therapeutic part is either done or they are just separate things.

So she gave me this whole idea. She was like, "Do you deal with ADHD?" And I was like, "Sure." You know? And she was like, "Well that is a really big thing right now." Like life coaching and ADHD is a really big thing. So, of course, I immediately did research. [00:23:47]

THERAPIST: [Over the top referral.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. So I put that right up on my website (laughs) and started doing a shitload of reading on, you know. It is one of those things, you know, too. I wonder if a lot of people when they start a business you feel kind of like a fraud almost. Do you know what I mean? Or in different lines of work. Do you know what I mean? You feel like, "Eh."

I think that is the other thing. Once you get started, you know, that -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT You have got to just dive in and get your hands dirty and just -

THERAPIST: I also think the more you know about the field the less you feel like that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because that may get exaggerated when you are not coming off of a four year training program in life coaching.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:24:47]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah. That is why every day I read. Every day I research. Every day I look at other people's websites. And some of them are good because they have their methodology on there. So, fuck, I read that over and over and take notes and you know. A lot of YouTube videos. So, you know. (pause) (sigh) Yeah, it is just a lot. (pause)

I think the other hard thing is, I mean I feel pretty alone in all this kind of. Do you know what I mean? I think that is what is hard about it. You know, you talk to your friends or whatever but it is hard to articulate to your friends. Or not articulate but it is hard to get what you need. Do you know what I mean? It is different when you have a more intimate, you know, wife or whatever. You know, it is just you are kind of in it together kind of. So that kind of sucks. [00:26:07]

THERAPIST: What do you need when you say that?

CLIENT: Just someone who has your back. You know? Someone who is cheering you on and helping you out even. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like people who are just looking out for you. (pause) That chick Jill came to the show, speaking of which. She drove up to see us in the Square.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:26:45)

CLIENT: Delaware.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah. She is awesome. It is just, I don't know.

THERAPIST: That is nice she came up.

CLIENT: Oh it is very nice. She is so cool and she is just a good person. Like she didn't expect anything or she didn't Do you know what I mean? Like she didn't make me feel She is just a really cool person. So, I don't know, that is nice. I mean I don't know what we are supposed to do but Maybe see each other every few weeks or something, I guess.

THERAPIST: Do you like her? I mean are you interested in her?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She is really cool. I think I am just holding back because II am not What is the? I mean, she is not going to I don't want her moving her nor would she, I think right now. So I am not sure what Do you know what I mean? But, yeah, she is awesome. She is a really good person. [00:27:45]

(very long pause)

Remember when we were talking about ABD and stuff? [00:28:47]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: What did you say for Masters? Can you say ABD? Like what should I put?

THERAPIST: I don't know what it would be officially.

CLIENT: I Googled it and I couldn't find anything. I can't figure out how to. I mean honestly, I just put Masters. I didn't know what to put. I guess I can put MA candidate or something. I don't know. (pause)

I wrote to them again and they didn't get back to me. I don't understand. It is very strange. There is this woman, because there is this new woman, Hannah. She was good the first few times. I don't know if she is just incompetent or overwhelmed or doesn't know what the fuck she is doing. [00:29:49]

THERAPIST: You don't want to try getting somebody on the phone or [making an appointment] (ph)?

CLIENT: I think I am just going to contact my advisor again, Chuck. He is my guy there and he has been there forever. I think what he says kind of goes. I think I am just going to talk to him about, "Look, I keep trying to get through. I am not sure what to do. What can we do to facilitate this?"

THERAPIST: [It seems hard to negotiate already now.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, "Can I just come in and "

THERAPIST: Have an appointment. It is not that persuasive over e-mail.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true.

THERAPIST: It is so easy for him to say, "I actually can't do that." You know?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: It is much harder to say that to someone's face -

CLIENT: That true.

THERAPIST: with everything you have going for you, you know?

CLIENT: That's true. Yeah, that's true.

THERAPIST: He hears a heartfelt story.

CLIENT: Right. Right. That is true. (pause)

THERAPIST: When you say you put "Masters," do you mean on your resume?

CLIENT: On my CV.

THERAPIST: Submitting to jobs.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. It is not quite true. [00:31:01]

THERAPIST: I was asking if you were doing that versus listing it online on your website.

CLIENT: What? I am sorry.

THERAPIST: Writing "Masters" on your website.

CLIENT: On the business website?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: No. On the business website what I have is I decided to keep it, to make it simpler I just said, "Attended." You know, "These are the schools I have attended for graduate school." You know, whatever. Yeah, I don't focus so much on that I I focus on my experience. Over five years teaching experience, you know, public speaking, communication.

You know, things that people that might need a life coach, that it connects. You know, I mentioned, you know, trauma stuff and career stuff that I have a lot of experience in the business, corporate, real estate experience. Just to let them know that. [00:32:09]

And of course all the artistic stuff. You know, published, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, it gives I think a picture of someone who has accomplished a lot of things and also a lot of life experience. But, yeah, I didn't, yeah. I didn't get into the degrees on the website. (pause)

THERAPIST: I think money is another thing. You really wish there were another way.

CLIENT: Yeah. It just sucks to have to even think about that. You know? It is just so silly. But, you know. (pause)

THERAPIST: What stops you from being more persistent right now about finishing that degree or seeing if you can? [00:33:12]

CLIENT: I think I just feel overwhelmed. I mean -

THERAPIST: And I am not even saying you should or it is not about whether you should or shouldn't.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think right now it is just that is the amount I can give is these e-mails. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I am worried about money. I am worried about this fucking business. I don't, you know. And I think deep down there is a part of me that is like not "who cares," but part of me is just, "You know what, Dude? Just the shut the fuck up and write your novel." Those are the things that matter. You know, those are the things that are going to mean something more in the long run.

I don't know. I just have this wishy washy. I think I am ambivalent about graduate school. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It might actually be helpful to figure that out. Because it does sound like part of you thinks it would be a good idea and part of you actually doesn't think it would be a good idea.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess part of me just feels like, you know what, if they want to check they can check. But, you know, I did everything. (laughs) They can look at my thesis if they want. I don't give a fuck. But, yeah, I mean in that way I don't feel Like it is no longer becoming so much about, "I just want to finish it." I kind of don't give a shit. You know? [00:34:30]

Like I never think about Brown anymore. Like I do not fucking I couldn't be happier to not be there.

THERAPIST: So why write to them at all then if you are comfortable without (ph) it?

CLIENT: Because now especially it would be nice. If you are starting a business where some people might be like, "Well, what are your credentials and what are your degrees?" It would be nice to just tick those sons of bitches off, like MA, PhD, bum, bum. You know. It is an intimidating. It is a good kind of intimidation for people. You know?

So I have to find ways of doing that without lying. You know, I am ABD. I am a masters candidate. Which is also good. I mean obviously that is good. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It is just so part of me is like, "Fuck me." (laughs) Just you know like. But, yeah, then another part of me is like, "Eh." You know. Even with business a part of me just feels like, you know what, business is all about you. Work your ass off. You drum up business. You do well with your clients. You send them out there. They tell others. I mean it is just business. Do you know what I mean? [00:35:37]

It is like saying, "Oh, you have a telecommunications company. Let me see your MBA." You know? You are starting a business and it happens to be a business that is not regulated, so that is not my, I mean. Do you know what I mean? And once I get going I can get certified in that business.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then there you go. You know? So I am a little Do you know what I mean? I feel like in terms of I am so, I feel like there is so much going on that I need to channel my energies whatever way that I think is going to be most beneficial long term. I think it would be nice to finish that stuff. So if I could then I will. But, yeah, it is not making me get in the car and go to Boston College Boston and bang on doors.

THERAPIST: It doesn't feel that important.

CLIENT: No. No. Maybe it should because it is such the easiest I could literally, if they said "yes" I could probably hand in the thesis in a week.

THERAPIST: Really.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it is a, yeah.

THERAPIST: I had no idea it was that easy.

CLIENT: I mean it is a masters' thesis. What is it like 80 pages. I think it is less, 50. [00:36:49]

THERAPIST: How could you write that in a week?

CLIENT: Because I already have a lot of shit. I have a file. I mean I have a whole Boston College thesis file.

THERAPIST: Of stuff that you have written. So why didn't you just hand it in then?

CLIENT: No it is stuff that I have written as I have felt better and better and better.

THERAPIST: Oh. Okay.

CLIENT: Because that has always been like, you know, "This is going to get done." You know? So bits and pieces, bits and pieces, bits and pieces. You know? So.

THERAPIST: So if it really it would only take a week, It feels like there has to be some other reason why you are not.

CLIENT: That is the only other reason.

THERAPIST: That is it?

CLIENT: I am just kind of like, "Meh." And to me that feels like effort. I don't know. It is pretty clear when someone keeps getting in touch with you. I am not being half assed about it. I mean I have really Yes, other than going there.

THERAPIST: See, I would see it as half assed. I am just being perfectly honest. That is somebody who seems ambivalent. You are asking for an exception to the rule to be made, you have to put your best foot forward.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true. That is true.

THERAPIST: To show that you mean that.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true. [00:37:55]

THERAPIST: So it is not even that I think you should or you shouldn't. In the end you could decide, "I don't want it. I don't need it. I will be fine without it." But my worry is in doing the half foot in half foot out, one foot in one foot out, is that you ruin your chances of doing it, of them taking you seriously. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Does it read as not that serious? I hear from him and then three months later I hear from him again. It doesn't sound like somebody that committed.

CLIENT: But I don't know how that is not that serious when I I mean I am the one not hearing back. I mean when someone keeps It is like, you know, "We talked about this. I heard back from you. But I haven't heard back since." I mean, I don't know. I mean, I feel like -

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe not ruin it then but the concern is leaving an impression that you are not committed to it. That is all.

CLIENT: Hm. I hadn't thought about that. I don't know. I mean to me, yeah. I don't know. I mean, getting in touch is getting in touch. Especially when it is not just a two line, "Hey, can I finish that masters." I mean, you know, I really let them know what the deal is and you know. I don't know. But, yeah, I guess. I hadn't thought about that. I should just call. [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: Well what if as every day goes by it gets and less and less likely that they will say "yes."

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: That is true.

THERAPIST: Like if another month passes. Maybe there is some other deadline you don't know about it where they say, "In rare exception we allow people seven years out."

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: But then you hit the eight year. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: You just might want to think about whether it is worth trying or not.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, yeah, maybe on some level deep down I am also not doing it because I don't want to hear "no."

THERAPIST: Yeah. I was wondering about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I mean that would suck. You know?

THERAPIST: But then you know. If it is an absolute "no" you let it go.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then you know.

THERAPIST: And it doesn't have to bother you. And you start writing "Attended Boston College."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That is what you do.

CLIENT: I guess I am worried. That is so final though that I am worried that then it would bother me. The fact that it is a fucking shut door. Then it would actually start bothering me that there was no way to get it. Do you know what I mean? It is like this (laughs) [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: I know what you mean but I think that that may be a fantasy. I don't think you understand how much it bothers you now, that it sort of haunts you all the time. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think it is possible that it could be more irksome.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like when you know, you know.

THERAPIST: You know. Then you move on.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: You have shut that door yourself then. You don't have to worry about the e-mails. You can take something off your list then.

CLIENT: Yeah, that is true.

THERAPIST: And then you can focus your efforts more on the other areas.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true.

THERAPIST: Instead of feeling so diversified -

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: that you are doing a little of this and a little of that and feeling like you didn't accomplish anything one thing at all by the end of the day.

CLIENT: Right. That is true.

THERAPIST: I think it might help.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is true. That is true.

THERAPIST: Or you decide you don't want it. But then you also take it off your list.

CLIENT: Right, right. (pause) Yeah, that is true. That is true. I mean it is kind of like how I am with Brown. It doesn't bother me with Brown. I put it on there. I just say "attended." Or I just say "MA candidate," or whatever. I don't care. You know? [00:41:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I guess what bothers me though is that I don't like the way that looks. MA candidate here, MA candidate at Boston College. I mean that is like, "So what happened?" You know?

THERAPIST: So write "Attended" instead.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Or, I mean, my friend has a marketing company. He was fucking, he is like "Why would you write any of that? It's like, dude, you went to Brown. Who gives a shit? Where you there? Were you accepted into Brown and you went for whatever period? It is like that is all that fucking matters, Dude. Just put that on there, put some dates and leave at that."

He was like, "People shoot themselves in the foot because they over explain." You know, it is like the fact is if I got that resume I would be like, "Oh shit. Brown." I would either think you are a douche because you went to Brown or I would think, "Oh cool. Brown. We get some Ivy League people." Do you know what I mean? It is like I wouldn't. You know, I don't have time to ruminate on your attendance or whatever. You know? [00:42:19]

THERAPIST: So he is voting (ph) for the just "attended" route.

CLIENT: Yeah, he is saying "attended."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The other thing he said was, "Don't put dates."

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Because you just said, "Put dates," which I think also doesn't -

CLIENT: Yeah, he is like, "Don't " Oh yeah, that is right, he didn't say that. What he said was, he was like, "A lot of people now will look at age." It is easy to calculate. They look at, "Oh, from this year to this year at this school."

THERAPIST: Skip a couple of dates.

CLIENT: Yeah, he is like, "Just don't put dates." Just, "Brown University. Attended," whatever. You know? (pause) It is so silly.

THERAPIST: Well I think it is also hard, Arto, that you are in this process right now feeling like you know more and feel more grounded in what you want to do. But that you are also having to face your history.

CLIENT: Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: And that there have been times when you didn't.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is right.

THERAPIST: You know? And what a candidate in multiple places does mean like kind of lost for a little while. In the reality, that is a hard -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That is one of the things -

CLIENT: It just sucks. Yeah. [00:43:31]

THERAPIST: And it also doesn't mean you are now.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. Of course.

THERAPIST: So you are finding a way of marketing that.

CLIENT: Yeah. And also, yeah, I think now I can look at it positively as like, "Well, I was there." That is a lot more than a lot of people. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You were accepted.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean that is as real as that you didn't finish. You know?

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

THERAPIST: And that some of not finishing also had to do more with not wanting to finish.

CLIENT: Exactly. Absolutely.

THERAPIST: In many of the circumstances, so.

CLIENT: Even subconsciously that makes me feel a lot better now. It is like, I mean I felt like such an ass thinking that I was somehow not worthy or that I couldn't That is such nonsense. Deep, deep, deep down I never wanted to in the first place. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hm. Yep.

CLIENT: I just didn't want to. You know, I just took that path because I was trying to be an artist but not deal with shit from family and not have a soul sucking job. Because I didn't know what kind of job I would possibly do so I didn't want to have a soul sucking job. Because I also saw what that did to my family or does to other people who You know? So, yeah, it just [00:44:42]

THERAPIST: That is a part of what you bring to the table, though, is that you were able to make some decisions to let go of certain things.

CLIENT: Right. Right. (pause)

THERAPIST: I still wonder for your own sense of yourself it would be good to have one of these finished.

CLIENT: Absolutely it would. Yeah. If there was a way to streamline it and do it. Yeah, absolutely. And the same with that is why I wrote to London. If there is a way to get it done I would like to get it done. You know?

THERAPIST: So why not pursue a masters. It is seriously a leap (ph) if they say "yes."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I know that is scary too. What if they say "yes." (laughs)

CLIENT: Right. Then it has got to get done.

THERAPIST: Then you have got to deliver.

CLIENT: Then I have got to deliver it. Yeah.

THERAPIST: See you tomorrow.

CLIENT: Okay. 12:50?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. So, have a good day.

THERAPIST: You too.

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