TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Are you okay?

CLIENT: Yeah. I slipped on the ice on Saturday. Yeah. I fell on my knee. Which, my knee doesn't hurt. It's just the muscles around it do.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Which is weird, but fortunate, I guess. So, my friend Jamie came down Thursday evening to interview and test for her, for a residency. You know, stayed at my house.

THERAPIST: She... (inaudible at 00:01:00)

CLIENT: Yes. Yeah, she's actually doesn't like it that much. She does like Dartmouth and a couple other spots she's looking at. And, she's also interestingly very, because I was talking to her about like, you know, various places and she wanted to make sure, you know, that they all had a I guess lesbian scene and then she's like also I want to find a single lesbian. I'm like okay. She's like, because she has been in for a while and like went to medical school and in it she said I can't have a girlfriend. I'm too busy. And, so now having a residency means that she's back. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Now she has time.

CLIENT: But, I also ended up talking to her kind of briefly about, you know, she had seen Zoe over Thanksgiving. I just said, you know, I haven't, you know, I haven't or whatever. And as it turns out, she does work for the Defense Department and she's actually extra busy not due to any schedules, but because two people above her left their jobs. Not for scandalous reasons. For family health. So, she had to kind of pick up their jobs and her job. She may get promoted to somewhat being in chargish of India. [00:02:45]

THERAPIST: Oh, wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is pretty amazing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I was wondering. I'm like well, that does explain some business that you might have. But, also, in a way, I felt kind of worse about not hearing from Zoe. Because it was like I mean I was thinking like that's a really big deal. Like, I would tell people.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or I would say I'm really sorry, I'm busy. I'm working three jobs and maybe running India. Right? I don't know. I really wanted her. I just wish she wanted to call me or text me or e-mail me to tell me that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:03:45]

CLIENT: And, yeah, like, I just felt really disappointed like, I don't know. Just, yeah. It really did make me feel worse because I was just, it's a big thing and also she totally like, I mean I get the career thing. I'm also, like it's a reason that you might say like I'm really sorry. I can't be in touch. So, that kind of sucks. I also didn't get to talk to Jamie very much because, you know, she drove down, did interviews. Came to my house and about three hours later fell asleep and then woke up to continue interviews and then go back to her hospital.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:04:45]

CLIENT: So, clearly, I wanted to talk to her a little bit about Zoe and something else and don't feel I'll have a chance until, you know, December or January. Like, I guess Januaryish. That's the next time she may have time.

THERAPIST: Sorry. Where is she?

CLIENT: She, right now, is moving around a lot. She's mostly in Pittsburgh.

THERAPIST: Is she in medical school?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's a new medical school.

THERAPIST: So, they just do rotations in different places?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Like, she has been doing like rotations in different places and I don't totally, I'm like I'm don't know, you just...

THERAPIST: Unfortunately, I don't know if the word easy is the way it was. [00:05:45]

CLIENT: Yeah. I know. I mean she's like I'm going to fly to Phoenix and I'm like okay. So, I don't know, I just...

THERAPIST: You feel like she also let you down or that you're I think feeling a bit hurt at not having more of a chance to talk to her.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it was also the combination of getting the, like I said, the news about Zoe from Jamie and I finally just talked to her. Yeah. I don't know. I felt like I just. I mean it wasn't the feeling of like I'm at a hotel with this person. Because, you know, like she came over and we got some groceries. We watched television. Like, whatever. And I understand that she's very busy, but once she told me about Zoe's job step I was like I really want to talk to you about this.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:07:10]

CLIENT: And I think it was like, I wasn't really wanting. Like, I figured she'd be really busy, so I wasn't feeling particularly bad about it until that came up. I felt a sense of like I was kind of like do I want to see you at all?

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know?. And, I don't know, for something also her like she kept on mentioning that she was, you know, looking to find a girlfriend. It made me think like oh, like I guess because now I'm just kind of like thinking a little bit about. I don't know. I guess like I'm not looking for someone to date right now. Maybe I could try that again or something. Because it was kind of vague. And then like Saturday my friend Jersey called and we were going to go see a lecture about food stuff. Her car broke, so then we ended up going over to a friend, a friend of hers house to like have delivery food and talk. Also, she wanted to update her dating profile.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:08:45]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, Jersey wanted to. So, Jersey was like I oh, need help because I need to take pictures of me for my profile and I don't know what to say in it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Blah, blah, blah. I didn't really know any of her friends, but whatever. That was fine. I ended up feeling really, I was kind of, I found her friends kind of annoying. It took me a little while to figure out why because I was like well, what is it that they're doing? And there were like a couple of things. Like one, something became this girl, Maxine, wanted to go through her clothes and she's like oh, fine. She should check out this clothes closet and then she wanted to go through all of her clothes and just like put them on and be like does this fit? Does this not fit? But I lost weight and I got this, but then I gained weight, so it doesn't fit. I hadn't signed up for like hours of someone discussing their weight. And, also like the various clothes that her sugar daddy boyfriend buys her. So, that was very frustrating. [00:10:15]

Then, you know, describing this other girl. You know, both, not really, I don't know. Like, neither of them really that they didn't touch. Like, I said like oh, you know, take some pictures. Look at the profile. A few other things and neither of them did really at all. Like, they did some pictures of me, which was nice, but then it was like I want to look at these clothes. Oh, I got this career porn. Oh, this is similar to pictures I have of my boyfriend. Head bouncing around and it's none of it is really because I want to deal with people. Like, I don't know them. They're not interesting to me. It really wasn't what I had signed up for and I just get, I just felt like really, just really frustrated. [00:11:15]

Like, partially because these, these, this girl Maxine particularly could not concentrate on any topic for more than like five minutes, except for her clothes and how she didn't want to get rid of any of her clothes even if it was ripped or too small or too big. So, in a little while I was kind of like hey, because I was trying to kind of trying to get her to focus and then I gave up.

And the other thing was, which is, so I was talking about how Jersey's like oh, Jersey you're so awesome. You're so pretty. You take great pictures of you and like talking about it a lot and then she's like what her friend Donna. Like you're so pretty. You're so pretty. And, like, she doesn't know me, but the complete lack of any...

THERAPIST: Help. [00:12:25]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's just like great. The only thing that, the only thing I had to say was they were impressed that I had twisted my hair evenly. They were like how do you get it to be even? I'm just like, I just, not very interesting. But, yeah, I said this is um, it's, I just really didn't go there and while I don't know them, it's still.

THERAPIST: Hurt a lot?

CLIENT: Yeah. And it wasn't what I was, like I wasn't expecting that.

THERAPIST: Sure. Yeah. It sounds like what you signed up for was to go and be kind of instrumental and emotional support for Bonnie while she was redoing her okcupid profile.

CLIENT: Right. And also Jersey gets really sick, everyone gets really sick posing at them. So, I think I can make silly faces behind the camera or whatever. And so those are things I was like yeah, so I'm ready for these things. I really wasn't ready for any of the other things. [00:13:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Talk about updating clothes and the fuss over everybody else being so pretty. That's the way that like it sounds to me. I don't know. It seems like she didn't intend it to be mean.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I think she didn't intend to be mean.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But.

THERAPIST: I don't think I've even heard that.

CLIENT: Yeah. In some ways that she didn't even notice was really hurtful as well.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, then I think the other thing is that it sort of also I was thinking. I was trying to decide whether or not I wanted to go to this sex party in January. Whether I wanted to go to the flea market in February and I've been feeling like probably not just like for many reasons and also just not really feeling like emotionally up to all of it. And part of me not feeling like emotionally up to it in part is those events are a lot about skinny women not wearing a lot of clothes which is not, not only is it like, there's a part where I'm like yes. Any event is kind of about skinny women being attractive. Yeah. Whatever. It's still frustrating and I don't like it. Like, in both cases it's so much so. [00:15:40]

THERAPIST: Like, yeah, I would think something like a book signing is a little less about it than something like the flea market.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And also if there's like such explosive like sexual display and like this is what I find attractive and it's like I see maybe what you find attractive about skinny people. Actually, well, I admit I see that you find skinny white women very attractive. And one of the things that I normally like would do to make myself feel better and feel more confident is like a cute outfit. And I don't feel like I have any like, I don't have any bench wear that fits. So, when she says let's just get rid of it which means I'm out. Like, it's not like I can try to squeeze in to something that's maybe a little small. Like, I try really hard to hold on to things that don't fit and to give them away to other people. [00:16:45]

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Like there's this, like, I don't like having. So, one thing that a lot of people I know who are large that I do is leave things that don't fit in their like dresser or closet and like every day you're like oh, those pants don't fit. Those pants don't fit. Those pants don't fit.

THERAPIST: Right. It's supposed to be like motivation that winds up being like sort of something that just makes you feel bad?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I'll hold on to things for like a certain period of time. But, if it doesn't fit, I'm like, I try to always, I have this little voice saying it's so hard to find the fetish wear. I would love. I would much rather someone else be able to wear this than for it to sit in the back of my closet.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:17:45]

CLIENT: Also, often my friends end up giving me stuff. So, I'm like hey, I get to see you in a cute outfit.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But, I have nothing.

THERAPIST: Do you feel bad about not fitting it anymore or not really?

CLIENT: No. It's, I don't feel bad about it. I feel it's, like, another way in which to get really frustrated and upset about clothing which is, which I'm like I just want some clothes. Like, I go through a lot of effort to find the clothes that I have. Like, anything that's cute, like, I spent a lot of time getting that and when I don't have that, it's just like aw. And like in some cases, I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. Like, I'd have to pay to custom make it or make it myself and I don't really want to. I super, I do super resent having to like... [00:19:00]

THERAPIST: Yes, it's really sort of frustrating in that way to no longer be able to wear the things you probably spent a while trying to find and you were excited to find.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It's also like another level of feeling like rejected and out of place. Because, you know, both of those events turn if you're not like dressed up in some way, people are just like are you supposed to be here? What are you doing? I can't really hold up a sign and be like fuck you. I've been here for 15 years or I've been on more port than you have or like anything like that. Also, like, I would like to be cute and get propositioned, but that's like not having... It's like I don't know. I mean both events are very much about like being desirable or feeling like you're desirable and, you know, the thing is like ill-fitting clothes make me feel unattractive. I'm like this is too much. This is gross. [00:20:25]

So, yeah, I just end up feeling just really like not attractive. Uninteresting. And then also I'll often see like things that I think are really, like I'm like oh, that's so attractive. That's so like pretty or so whatever. And then I think and I can't get it. Along with the frustrations that some people will be like oh, no, no, no I'm sure they carry your size, but they don't. So, then we get in this little like, no, no, no, no. So, yeah, I just felt like very unattractive. It's not even unattractive. Like, invisible almost like. I am not in, like, it's like, it's not like someone's like oh, I think you're very cute. It's like I'm not in a group of people that you would even look at to find attractive or not. [00:21:40]

THERAPIST: I see. Like, what is it? Being in a having that... A little bit left out. A little bit in that you were left out.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of like. I mean for a variety of reasons I didn't seem to think that it was like. Because at a couple points when like Maxine was like oh, Jersey you're so hot. You're so, so pretty. Blah, blah, blah. She would then be like, she would circle away and be like oh, Donna, you look so great. I'm like oh, she knows so many attractive people and I just see her being like yes, you do. And I, it's like not just that you don't find me attractive. It's that you don't even feel like you need to like no, no, no, you're attractive too. [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I guess the thing is I mean it's one thing to go and help while she's doing the profile, I'd say.

CLIENT: Like, that's fine.

THERAPIST: But then there's four of you and she fusses over the third person. Because the other person was saying, it was like it sounds like was quite conspicuous.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In a way that maybe familiar to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. It took me a while to sort of all put together what was bothering me.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And so, when I feel that it was just like okay, I feel like going home right now.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There are other things that are tied in to that. Like, all her fussing about her clothes and her weight.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I almost never. It's very rare that I'd want to sit down with someone and go through their closet. I mean, I've done that with people, but like I've got to be ready. I want you to be ready. I want some ground rules and this is just like sudden noncom when I obsess about my weight and my body. [00:24:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. What is it about that that hurts? Is it like basically the whole thing even like really critical of people who are fat?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it's a bunch of things. Like, part of it is I mean she's, so she's talking a lot about how she had lost a lot of weight. Lost some weight and then gained some of it back. And, so, therefore, like, you know, your relative fatness was the most important part.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, also, like, she was I think she was saying most women are pretty slim. So, there's this, also the moment if you two are not slim enough, I therefore am, like, huge, like in comparison. If you're like wow, I wear this size and I just, you know, I just need to be thinner. Well, I'm a lot bigger than that. Like, where like where are we going with this?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And also it's pretty much like the most important attractive thing about me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Is my weight. [00:25:25]

THERAPIST: The only thing I'm going to talk about in relation to my entire closet for this entire time is like whether I'm down 10 pounds or up five pounds or down two pounds.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then she's like well, I don't want to get rid of this because it looked so good eight months ago. I'm kind of like I don't know what to tell you. Like, I mean I gave her sort of the advice I always say when someone could say that. Like, well, you may want to take it out of like your current rotation and just put it in a box in your closet. You're not throwing it out. You're just moving it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then she would fuss and obsess over. Like, it's not only that she has 40 pairs of pants.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's only pants. Yeah. And another girl had eight. She's like six, seven, eight. Maxine had 40. That's how she got started like putting on clothes. And it was really rapidly clear that a lot of them did not fit her current body and or were like torn or stained, but she wouldn't let them go. Especially, the ones that had fit and were too small. Yeah. I mean there were a few things that were too big that she wouldn't let go of. Mostly. Which is also like why, like I hate when people are like I will only, like, you know, like that's not the body you have right now. So, maybe it shouldn't. Like I don't like.... [00:27:05]

THERAPIST: Like you shouldn't be so worried about the body that you have?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like what are you wearing right now?

THERAPIST: Right. Like there's a kind of negation.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was it's just like it's also the like the aspiration of a body, of a thin body and also even just being it also reminds me that there is not, you'll never get there. You know, like.

THERAPIST: Only two more pounds or five more pounds or whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then you're like oh, my clothes aren't fitting well, and I'm just like I don't care. I mean, I do, but not really. I just don't, like, I don't care. And also it's like the sort of the desexualization of fat people. Where there's that. And sometimes there's like oh, but you have breasts and that's great. Yes, it is. They're lovely, but like they're not independent of my body. So, that's frustrating.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:28:20]

CLIENT: And also in like a conversation about clothes, we can't shop at the same stores.

THERAPIST: Which kind of comes up?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When you're thinking about where they got things.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Where did you get them?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I was talking to Jersey mostly and I was saying Jersey's looking for clothes and I was like yeah, I really don't know if it fits and she's like, you know, me too. And we're talking about it and I was saying I had, I kind of wanted to wear like retro kind of pin up girl lingerie or something like that and Maxine's like I know where you can get that and I was just like you don't. She's like no, no, there's this place and I'm like yup, I've been there myself. And I just always that conversation's just always frustrating. It's a, highly unlikely that you actually know where I can get clothes my size. Especially since you were really concentrating on getting smaller clothes. And you're not really listening to what the problem is. [00:29:45]

THERAPIST: Right. The problem isn't finding the style. Yeah. The problem is finding the size.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, something? I mean for me it also becomes one of these things where like some things, like some clothing things that you can throw money at the problem and that it will get fixed.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And this is because it's one of those points where I'm like I can't throw money at the problem because there isn't a thing to buy.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. So, I guess part of what I was saying is that what is angering you is the kind of willful blindness or denial of the problem. Like, oh, no, no, no. I know this great store and oh, I'm sure that they've got your size or whatever. They're ignoring the problem because you could never not (inaudible at 00:30:53).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know. Something like that. And I feel like I'm probably only getting a piece of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:31:20]

THERAPIST: Like, a way that somebody close to you is like far, as far as like oh, why I overlooking your shape and kind of in a whole bunch of different ways in terms having that sexuality. In terms of how like cultured things about. Like, the retail side of it. Or how will I discuss it. Like?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's, I don't want a lot of how I, like, when I was like a little bit smaller, only not much.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There was this weirdness of like well, I can kind of sort of squeeze in to the top extra large at the clothes store and people are more likely to say like oh, no, you're not fat. You're, you're just curvy or whatever. And then there was some very visible line where people stopped telling me no, no, no, you're not fat. Which is fine in a certain way. Because I don't like people telling me no, no, you're not really fat. Whether you're just saying is will I still fuck you or I like you or you're not a horrible stereotype. But, part of also of someone not saying it's like oh, no, you're not fat, is that...

THERAPIST: Well, it's not okay to be fat, right? [00:33:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not okay. And I can't even like plausible liability fit what might be attractive, so it's like there's always ways in which, you know, when people are like what do fat people look like or if I came across a party who do I think is cute or who would I want to talk to? And I'm like well, I'm going to be one of probably three black people there. There will maybe be a dozen people who aren't white, maybe. Like, I can think of them all right now basically and like the women that people are chasing after are all a lot skinnier than me and I'm like yeah, I can think of people who aren't, who are not skinny and being pursued, but it's unusual. The people that I see amazing going back on. I can't wear that outfit and sort of like... [00:34:10]

I just, yeah, I sort of, I feel like I just don't exist or I'm not supposed to be existing. I mean it's very much a way in which like at this party at the flea like women are very much there to be like objectives of desire. Their point is to be sexy. So, since I can't be sexy, what's the point? What is the point of me being there? It's just weird, like why are you even here if you're not like an object? And I'm just like I don't know. Because I wanted to.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Incredibly hurtful. [00:35:10]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's just feels like so awkward and just alone. Like, a lot, it's like a lot of my friends like they don't want to deal with that. So, they're like well, no, no, no, or you know, this and that. Well, you should come anyway because it's nice seeing you. I'm like well, okay. Yes, I like, I understand what you're trying to tell me. But, you know, it's really not enjoyable to spend money to go to something where pretty much no one will find me attractive and if they do, they won't admit it.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:36:10]

CLIENT: I mean, I also feel like I think I could do that for free in February. So, I don't really want to spend money for it. And, I know it's not just me. I definitely, like, last year there was this one like horrible, awkward moment of two of our friends of ours they asked me, and they're both masculine people, and there was this straight guy talking about like what he really likes is to be, have the viscidity of our subjects. You know, like objects. And, they're only wielded by attractive women, only women. [00:37:10]

He was trying to explain like why it was really important that they be with him without saying that and then he's kind of like flowing around. He's like well, you know, like look at women. And I'm just like alright. And we're both kind of like, you know, punched up. I'm like hey, what's up, we could just, you know, and kind of grab one of their hands like do you want to leave? Do you want to go? We're kind of pinned against the wall. And yeah, it was really... He introduced one of my friends as being a butch woman, which is kind of true and he was like well, no but more feminine. And, then my other friend who first introduced me to this guy then was like oh, my god they're really a woman and was then trying to forget or explain how somebody's dressed up, like it's just that's really important the person be a woman. And so that really sucked for both of them and I know that happens to them with regularity and they still go. [00:38:30]

THERAPIST: I doesn't mean that you have to...

CLIENT: I know. I'm just kind of like oh, I'm sorry you guys and you know, I was like I totally get why you might not want to go because, wow.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Do you feel like you don't exist in any of those ways here with any of the crowded in any way you were able to come up or or the way you sort of...

CLIENT: No. I mean not existing like for me it very much exists. It's like it's happening in the social community environment. [00:39:30]

THERAPIST: Sure. I didn't have anything like, I didn't have some scenario in mind where I was like oh, it kind of seems to me not really. I thought, you know, sometimes. Stuff like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. I was thinking of something a friend of mine. He was transferred to a room where he was talking about how he's a Quaker and he talked about, you know, if it's just you and me talking it's me and it's you, but in a community when you talk about a third party, that we need gender pronouns. It was just how I feel about a lot of the... Like, I can feel cute and attractive in my apartment or come meet a person or but, it's the and then we go somewhere else.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We can stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'm going to turn this off.

END TRANSCRIPT