TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[joined in progress]

CLIENT: It's those fuckers over there, man. (therapist responds) They take up all those spaces and over here, it gets all nuts.

THERAPIST: The construction, you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, so you can't park anywhere, anytime now like, it's closed off and stuff. So people that would park there, I think, it gets more saturated here. (sighs) Oh, man! (sighs) So... (pause) Um... Yeah, I don't know. Um, I've been waking up weird lately. (therapist responds) Like, early, early, like morning, my hand's been cramped.

THERAPIST: (responds) Your left hand?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, it would like, almost like a nerve or something (therapist responds) like, my two fingers or something. I don't know, and like kind of weird, I don't know, it's been kind of freaking me out a little bit, but... I'm sure... I'm probably not sleeping soundly or something like that, you know? [00:01:10]

THERAPIST: You're a righty.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I just hope it's not, I don't know. My uncle was saying... Before he was diagnosed with the diabetes, he was getting a lot of cramps in his legs, and calves, and all that. I don't think it's that, but... Yeah, I don't know. It's just weird. I don't know if I'm just like, having anxiety dreams that sometimes I don't remember when I wake up or something.

The weird part is, I wake up like that, and I don't feel well or whatever. You know, it feels kind of like, tight here, like almost like... The other thing, I probably should get checked out is, I mean, years ago I was diagnosed with like, mild sleep apnea (therapist responds), you know. So I worry that, you know, I didn't really do anything about it at the time. (sighs) So, you know, that will do it, if you're not breathing right, or whatever. You wake up and you feel... you know. [00:02:10]

But, so, but then the odd thing is, then when I fall back asleep (therapist responds), then I wake up... I mean, I sleep deeply and I wake up without those issues. (therapist responds) That's what I don't get, but... So, it's been happening the last few days.

[pause 00:02:25 to 00:02:46]

I mean, I think like, there is probably a lot of... I'm doing a good job of managing my anxiety, but I think there is a lot of it, you know what I mean? It's like, the past, where it's... I'm like, freaking out or something. I'm functioning, but I have a feeling there is a lot of deep stuff going on, especially for whatever reason like, this past month or so, maybe. (therapist responds)

(pause) It's like, what do you, you know, I mean, there is just a lot, all at the same time. It's hard to... I think it's hard, I'm having trouble kind of rela-like... relaxing my mind or you know like, even though I feel like I'm pretty much doing well, but (therapist responds), I wonder if some of that's just, just kind of, I have a high tolerance or something. (therapist responds) I don't know. [00:03:49]

Like, you know, last night, I saw my two Assyrian friends. We had a great time. You know, like it's not, when I'm out and about, generally, it's not... I'm not like, all preoccupied by my anxiety, or whatever. But, so I think it's just a general... (aside: sorry; my shirt's tight!), it's just like a general state that I think is... you know. (therapist responds). (sighs) (pause)

THERAPIST: You have a lot of big changes that you're anticipating (client affirms) and waiting for, it seems to (inaudible) (blocked).

CLIENT: Yeah, plus there are changes, plus there is all this stuff here, that is about the past, you know what I mean? So, just as I'm excited for all the changes, changes make you anxious anyway (because they could work or not work or whatever), but then I'm... It's almost a constant reminder of... things are great now, but they could have been great ten years ago (therapist responds), you know what I mean? Like, that's what I'm hav , that's really a tough one. And that's not going to go away tomorrow. I mean, it just is what it is. Time is, you know... [00:05:18]

You know like, in my head, I play it out and that's kind of devastating. (therapist responds) Like, I'll be like, "Yeah, I might finish this novel, I might not. I mean, who knows when my next book's going to come out? I could be 45!" Well, I probably will be 45. I mean, by the time the book actually gets published. First you have to finish the fucking thing, but so I'll be like, my mid-40s, maybe even later than that.

You know what I mean like, I play these things out in my head. I'm like, "Wow, really! I'm going to be 50 soon!" And boy, what's that? I'm going to be a 50-year-old dude in like, a rock band and shit? Like... That's like cognitive dis , it's not making sense. And of course, you can do it; why not? Of course! I mean, you can do all those things. But it's just like, "Wow, man!" Like, these, this feeling that I have, where I am now, this is what you're supposed to feel when you're in your late 20s, or whatever, you know? And that's... I'm having trouble swallowing that, you know.

I'm doing a good job, I think, you know. But that's... [00:06:21]

THERAPIST: It's a tremendous amount of grief. Almost unbearable.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah it is almost. And I think what's hap , and I think part, that's part of the reason I think why it's hard for me to just pick a girl and settle, you know what I mean? (therapist responds) Because I feel like I'm... not, it's, I feel like it's a combination of playing catch up (therapist responds), but also it's also like, I just feel good. I feel like, "Wow!" Like, I want the best girl. I don't want just any girl. (therapist responds) Like, I feel like, because I feel so much (chuckles) better, you know what I mean?

So it's a combination of like, making up for lost time, but also just... Now time is fleeting, and I don't want to waste it, just with Iris; well, she's good enough or, you know. I don't know. It's just, it sucks. And then that worries me. I'm like, "Well, then, I'm never going to settle," because I'm constantly... There is this push and pull, but in the meantime, I am getting older, so... (therapist responds) [00:07:20]

You know, there is also... I don't know. All I can think is that maybe part of the reason I'm doing a lot better is because now I know what it's like for people. (therapist responds) This isn't unusual, I think. Even people that... let's say people that were doing great in their (chuckles) 20s, the fact is, time lost is still time lost, you know? So... This is, I think, you know, I mean, I think about all the people I know who are 40s, 50s, divorced, whatever, or in unhappy marriages or... How the fuck do they feel?

I mean, I'm an independent (chuckles) guy. I have a lot going on. Like, so in a way, I think it's also, it's all those things, but it's also, I think, a general sense of like, I think this is what it feels like sometimes, when you get older, you know. You know, it's not debilitating, it's not (therapist responds), you know, but it is just really sad, and like frustrating. [00:08:26]

THERAPIST: It seems like something that you (inaudible) feeling, that makes it more like to wanting to make sure everybody's like, this...

CLIENT: Oh, well, I'm always like that, right? Yeah.

THERAPIST: I just wondered what's, there is something about (blocked).

CLIENT: Just so you don't feel like, so I don't... because then it would be debilitating, I think. Or it would be...

THERAPIST: Yeah, why?

CLIENT: Well, if I felt like, "This is just me, I'm so traumatized, my life is so unusually fucked up..." (therapist responds), that's just, that's a lie, man! That's, you have to feel a little bit like you can commiserate with people and, I mean, it's comforting, you know, to...

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's like the two choices, though, are we're all the same or... (blocked).

CLIENT: No, no, I'm not saying, well, I mean, I know my situation is unique. All I'm saying, though, is other people's situations are also unique, but the common thread is that you can't get time back. (therapist responds) That's what I'm saying. [00:09:22]

THERAPIST: Absolutely, absolutely.

CLIENT: Yeah, clearly I have a very unique background, but you know, so does my buddy who got divorced. I don't know. We all have our backgrounds. So all I'm saying...

THERAPIST: In ways that are particular to him.

CLIENT: Exactly! But, what we can commiserate on is like, time is gone and somehow (therapist responds) this is just a basic thing of life for every human being, that, you know, you start hitting certain ages (it might be different for different people), but you know, you start feeling it, like...

THERAPIST: Even thinking about time (inaudible) (blocked).

CLIENT: Yeah, you're thinking about time, yeah. That's all, yeah. And so there is something a little more comforting about it. So it's like, I'm like, racing against time and everyone else is (therapist responds) stuck being 30 forever, you know? I mean... (pause) But, yeah, no, it's not a way to minimize. I mean, I clearly... I think that's (inaudible) happening. I mean, now that I feel so much better, it's not that hard for me to have these moments where I'm like, "FUCK!" Like, I have a very unique set of (chuckles) circumstances. (therapist responds) And that's hard to take, too. You know, it's just like, it's like, (inaudible) "What? Wait, that was me?" (therapist responds) Like, when I look back on things. I'm like, "What the fuck happened here?" You know? That's hard, that's hard to deal with. (therapist responds) [00:10:40]

It's like, all the things I would tell someone now, as a life coach, (therapist responds) you know what I mean? That you just get stuck in a drift, you know? Things just happen, and you kind of think some of those things are your choices, or you think you're acting, but you're kind of not. You blink your eyes and ten, fifteen years go by and there you are, you know? So that's, it's devastating. It's a really difficult thing. (pause) I don't know.

[pause 00:11:14 to 00:11:42]

THERAPIST: I think everyone has something that's particular to them that's painful, looking back in their life.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or even if it isn't painful, there is still a looking back. (therapist responds) You know what I mean? They could have a completely idyllic whatever, but there is, it's bittersweet, you know?

THERAPIST: Oh, I don't know about completely idyllic. I mean (blocked)

CLIENT: You know what I mean. I'm just trying to say that even if they've had a pretty good (therapist responds), you know, things have been provided for, overall things have been... not so eventful in a bad way. But there is still a... It is what it is. Suddenly your knee hurts. Suddenly, you know, you just lose some of your spark or whatever it might be for people. Or at your job, you're suddenly viewed a little differently, because now there are younger people coming up and now you're... you know? Whatever it is. (therapist responds) [00:12:37]

(pause) But yeah. No, no, I mean, there is no question of the vast majority of people, yeah, there are things that they regret or there are things that they... Even if there are things they don't regret, there are things that, in retrospect... there are still... there are questions. Like, people have unanswered... you know what I mean? (therapist responds) What happened with that relationship or why, you know, why did I fight with my dad so much all those years? Whatever it is, you know? Or with my siblings or whatever, you know. So I think, yeah, everyone has... something. I think some people are just dealt a little bit more complicated and difficult circumstances. It's just...

THERAPIST: And something for you, when you get into the particulars of what your circumstances were, at some , it starts to make you feel like you're all alone, and I think it's like... [00:13:37]

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean, I think probably everybody... Yeah, I mean...

THERAPIST: Or, I guess (inaudible) (blocked).

CLIENT: Because they are so...

THERAPIST: ...existential, but like, there is some, like you're uniquely bad in some way or... There is (inaudible) (blocked)...

CLIENT: Because it feels that way, it feels like this...

THERAPIST: ... you often say, "Then I feel like I'm fucked." That's, you say that expression a lot when you're feeling that feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah, because it's like... it's overwhelming. Like, it's all so unique to me, it feels so unusual (therapist responds), you know? I mean, everyone's circumstances are unusual, but I feel like, I feel like whatever unusual card you could get, I feel like I got, almost. (therapist responds) Like, I wasn't spared any, you know what I mean? Deaths in the family, being an only child, immigrants, you know like, you name it. I don't know.

THERAPIST: You got... some of them, rather than one or two.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And I don't mean that like, I had it so much worse than others, but it's a lot, man, it's a lot, you know. [00:14:35]

THERAPIST: So something about knowing that, that the hand you were dealt had some hard cards in it. You... and there is a way, you keep saying that, "Because then I'm fucked." It's as though like, that's the...

CLIENT: Yeah, because then it is kind of like, it makes you feel more exhausted and like, "What the fuck; just as soon (ph) publish a book or not," like, what... It makes me start feeling kind of existentially... not good (therapist responds), you know?

THERAPIST: Same word. What...

CLIENT: I mean, I'm old!

THERAPIST: Like, what's the point of anything? (ph)

CLIENT: Well, a little, no, a little bit, yeah. I mean, it just makes me feel like, "(sigh) This is a joke!" I'm still trying to be a musician (ph). I have what, ten really good, vibrant, young years left. Then it's... I'm not middle-aged anymore! I'm becoming an old dude. That's like, it's not, it's not sinking in, that's what I'm trying to say. You know what I mean? My age right now isn't sinking in. [00:15:32]

So, let alone this short span of a decade that I have to still be kind of youthful, a little bit, a tiny bit, which I'm... Even that I'm not, I'm sure I'm deluding myself. I mean, I'm middle aged, you know. So, that's just like, "What the fuck, man!" And I'm scrambling to try to finish my first fucking novel! A kid that spent his whole life diligently, you know, willing himself and plotting and writing, trying to... You know, like, it's just, that's hard, that's really hard to swallow. Or someone who's, you know...

It bumps up against my talents. That's my problem. If I was a different kind of a person, who wasn't so confident in his talents, maybe it would be different. I'd be like, "Well, that really sucks. And okay, well, now, I'm going my business and..." I don't feel that way! I feel like I was destined. I mean, I have that (chuckles), I have like, an older, maybe an old-school mentality or something. I feel like I was kind of destined to do something important (therapist responds), that leaves a mark, you know what I mean? Not a fucking life coaching business. That's great, there is nothing wrong with that, whatever job to make money. Even if I was a professor at Brown, that's, to me, that's not, you know like, I'm talk , in terms of art, that I was somehow destined to kind of move people, and make a little bit more of an impact through writing and... [00:16:54]

So it's kind of like, well here I am. I mean, now it's a total race against time (therapist responds) and... It's much harder, not in writing, but in you know, in music, it's much harder because you can be taken less and less seriously. Not seriously, but less and less as a... trendy, you know, "of the moment" artist, because it's a youth-oriented thing. I mean, you know. It doesn't mean there is not room for you, but it just is what it is. (chuckles) You know what I'm saying? (therapist responds) That's just, it's hard to swallow, it's hard to take that. So that's why I need to feel like other people are experiencing similar things, or whatever, that there is somehow, you know...

THERAPIST: And kind of buffers them, somehow (ph) (blocked) [00:17:52]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Not only buffers, it does make me feel better, because I do realize I don't have children, I'm not in the battle of my life with some fucking ex-wife who's treating me like sh ; I mean, people have it worse. I'm like, I don't think I have it worse than others, but I do have a very particular set of shitty circumstances (therapist responds) that are not easy to just like... yeah. They're just, you know, it is what it is.

(sighs) And again, it's hard to explain that to people. What am I supposed to tell my friends, I feel like I'm destined for great , you know. That sounds a little wacky, you know? But it is how I feel, you know. (pause) It doesn't mean I'm not going to do anything now. I am. It's just... you know, again, it's just like, it's almost, it's one... I think time is kind of like, (chuckles) kind of like death, but it is. It's kind of like, there are really not much you can say about it, you know? Like, if someone loses someone, you can be as sympathetic as you want. In that person's moment, in that moment, it doesn't matter what you're saying, you know. You can bring the lasagna, you can do whatever the fuck you want. There is nothing you can say. And I think that time is similar. (therapist responds) And that's very difficult. There is nothing to be said. Everyone could be going through exactly the same thing that I'm going through, but if I was to really sit there and really... [00:19:27]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) (blocked)

CLIENT: Yeah, because it doesn't even make them want to cry or it's like, it's a beyond... It's a very deep kind of black hole type thing, where it's like, I just, there is no... (therapist responds) (pause) So, I think in that case... you know, that's where I think that like... you know, either in philosophy, or with life coaching, or... You know, in that way, I think it's a good combo to have like, therapy, but also... It's, I think it's a delicate thing for people like me. You almost have to actively forget, so you can fucking move on and actually have a functioning... But at the same time, of course, you can't act like things didn't happen. (therapist responds) You have to work... you know what I mean? It's a delicate thing, I think. For me, at least. I think everybody does it their own way, but, for me, I think it's like, you have to sit with it and (inaudible), I mean, you know, it is what it is. Like, you have to... work through it. At the same time, you also (chuckles) have enough of you that's energized enough (therapist responds) to focus on the future more and just kind of, you know... not let yourself get... [00:20:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're worried about it becoming overwhelming (inaudible) (blocked) immobilizing.

CLIENT: Well, yeah because that's how people become bitter, it's how they lose energy, it's how they give up on things.

THERAPIST: In your family, especially.

CLIENT: Yeah! It's how they do things half-assed, it's how they allow themselves, all my life, right? It's how they allow themselves to be scattered, their focus is scattered, you know? (therapist responds) (blows air) So, you know, that worries me. I don't, that's how you don't end up with someone (therapist responds), you know? Instead of just savoring who you have, you're constantly, something is, you know, because it's all this dark...

THERAPIST: So, I'm going to say something that's a little bit opposite to what you're saying. I was thinking about this yesterday. I hear you saying that the fear is that if you focus too much on lost time, you'll get so depressed and bitter that you get more scattered or more immobilized, don't ever settle with somebody. But I actually think art should be (ph) opposite has happened. I think it's when you haven't been aware of time that you can afford to be scattered, you don't have to settle down yet, because there are a feeling of endless time. [00:22:11]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. No, I agree.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: Because I actually think the more you found time, as sad as it is, the more what you want to do with the time you have has come alive.

CLIENT: No, no, it's true. But what I'm saying is so now, now that that's the case (therapist responds), it's like now you have to, there are extremes, you know what I mean? So now the trick is to still be with that, and work through it, and not brush it... "Oh, like, oh now I'm over it," you know. No, of course, it's, I mean, it's completely traumatic. I'm just saying that there has to be a balance of... and I guess it's just what you're saying (therapist affirms), that's what it is.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) (blocked)

CLIENT: Because I'm doing all these things I'm doing the way I'm kind of doing them is I'm not dwelling, when I'm out in the world, you know what I mean? As much. Like it...

THERAPIST: Yeah, you've been dwelling less and less, actually.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: I think. The more you've remembered.

CLIENT: Right. Right, right, right. [00:23:02]

THERAPIST: So I don't think it's going to be that memory causes more of a depression. It causes a lot of grief, but I think as that grief gets really known, so you know, and you get how much time matters, the more you use time differently in the future. You have a lifetime in front of you, in a way. (client affirms) Right? There is half your life left, and don't a lot of writers become, only really get into (inaudible) (blocked) starting about now?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Or even musicians, yeah. (therapist affirms) I mean, but it doesn't feel that way. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's the problem. (pause) Or it does feel that way, but it also feels like... but all those people are half-fooling themselves a little bit. (therapist responds) In other words, yeah, but they also know that they're old and that... You know what I mean? Like, because what's the alternative? What are you going to do? Like, kill yourself? No! Unless you're... (therapist responds) You know what I mean? Like, if you love life, you know, you want to live your life. But at the same time, it's like you have to play this game with yourself, or... I mean... You know what I'm saying? [00:24:13]

Like, I feel like we have to tell ourselves things a little bit, so that we won't lose our minds. (therapist responds) Like, "Oh, no, you're 70; you still look great!" Well, yeah, you do look great, but you are 70, you know? Things are falling apart and you know that you're 70. (therapist responds) Your time is very limited. That's an awful, that's a crazy thing to come to terms with. I mean, I think of this doesn't even have to do with my issues. Some of this has to do with just being an artist and (therapist responds) being sensitive and, you know. I think other people know those things and they just don't, don't have...

THERAPIST: Think about them.

CLIENT: Yeah like, "Yeah, we're all going to die. And?" You know. But I think, if you have a fucked up background and you're an (chuckles) artist, I was already going to think about these things anyway. I thought about these things before anybody in my family died or... you know, so that's a, that's the tough, it's like, it's... you know. [00:25:11]

THERAPIST: You, I mean, there is certainly the artist side that you're going to feel that, no matter what, (inaudible) even at the end of this, you're going to have that existential feeling and awareness that some people have more or a little bit (ph) less than you. But I think the part that we're tying up (ph), this particular untying (ph) to you, it's not just an artist.

It's waking up to time, after your father having died and this tremendous lapse in time that happened in your life, right? That there is something still right now, about like, as we were talking about the Boston College (ph) yesterday. There is a little piece of, maybe there is endless time, it's still hidden in that like, if, just keep trying a little bit and maybe a year from now, you'll decide that time might run out there, actually. And the more you're aware of that, you might decide you're going to go finish the degree or try to (inaudible) or not. [00:26:12]

But then it's done with, and you get to move on. You've become less scattered. You move on to the next thing. And it becomes more, the time gets used in a very different way, when it's not timeless. And I think that that's what got, a piece of what got lost in your 20s, especially your 20s, when there was so much trauma and grief going on (on top of whatever else had already been going on), right? That is particular to you. Someone else has a different particular story, but I think it's hard, even to feel a particular feeling (inaudible) associated with that story for yourself.

[pause 00:26:56 to 00:28:18]

CLIENT: It's, you know, it's... it sucks, because like, you know, between what I've gone through and the way my family is, what's awful about it is... It's hard... like, no matter what happens, I always still, I have to fight the feeling (therapist responds) that... (pause) like other people just don't get it, you know what I'm saying? (therapist responds) That like, I still have to fight, I've gotten way better, so that's why I, you know, I mean, it's part of why I've been feeling so much better, but you know, I still have to catch myself in these mom ...

Well, I'll be out, let's say, with friends or whatever. I'll catch myself being the way I used to be, which is like, "Like, who, who..." I'll suddenly have this like, "out of body" like, kind of thing, you know, this split (snaps fingers) second thing, where I'm like... Like, I don't know how to explain it, (therapist responds) but in a very split (snaps fingers) second thing, I'll just imagine my friend like, as if their life is somehow easier (therapist responds) and, you know what I'm saying? (therapist affirms) [00:29:22]

Like, it's more purposeful or somehow they just, "How do they do things? Like, how do they..." You know what I'm saying? (therapist affirms) Like, I'm like, "Oh, they're going to the beach for the weekend. Like, what's that like?" (therapist responds) Like, it will seem so weird to me...

THERAPIST: Foreign...

CLIENT: ...foreign and strange and... Luckily, it's gotten way better now. I'm like, "Well, it's really not a big deal to go , they just reserved the place and then they went," you know. But that, I think that will be a good, as that improves... because that's been a big thing. I mean, that's why like... Now when I'm with people, I feel so much... something just feels different, you know? I just feel more connected, kind of, and more mellow, internally more mellow, you know? Um...

THERAPIST: Less of an outsider. [00:30:12]

CLIENT: Less of an outsider, less internally needy kind of. (therapist responds) I mean, outwardly, I'm pretty much, everything is the same, but yeah like, I just don't... you know... (therapist responds) I feel more part of the fabric, you know what I mean? (therapist responds) But that is a hard thing, because, and I think that's what happens with women, too. Like, they just seem so foreign like, not, you know, it's just like, what, "They're not going to get me. They don't... what... what's she talking about, her family vacations in Newfoundland. What is that?" Like (chuckles) it just seems completely foreign.

And so now luckily I catch myself. Like, that's just crazy family talking. (therapist responds) What does that mean? I'm foreign to them. (therapist affirms) My experience is not their experience. I mean, what does that even mean? It's just another way of, it's like my mom's, you know, thing of like, "It's us against the world. Like, we're unique. Anything that happens..." You know what I mean? (therapist affirms) It's like a little bit narcissistic. It's like, even your bad shit is special. It's only you (therapist responds), you know? It is particular to you, but it doesn't mean, it's not a competition, or it's not like a, you know, only bad things happen to you. No one else gets it, or you know. [00:31:30]

THERAPIST: (pause) Or maybe even how could I be saying some of these things. Maybe I don't get it. It could come up here, too, that feeling, "Do I just not get it?"

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No?

CLIENT: For whatever reason, no it doesn't come up here. (pause) No, no it's my family. It's totally my family. It's my mom, especially. (therapist responds) I mean, she did it... I'll give you a small example. Yesterday, or the day before, I don't know, my uncle was over for a little bit. They were going to take, he and my mom were taking my grandmother again for her dentures and all that. (therapist responds) Later that night, I popped down, I brought Cecelia (sp) down so, you know, and I want to see how, what happened with my grandmother, or whatever.

Like, for no reason, you know (therapist responds), it's so my mom. Like, she was like, you know, she kind of laughs, she was like, "You know, I drove, I was driving by, whatever, and your uncle was at the coffee shop, you know..." At the Cheshire coffee shop, these Assyrian dudes get together. It's kind of pathetic, but, you know, and my uncle doesn't have friends. [00:32:40]

So he hangs out with my aunt, who passed away, her hus , you know, my uncle, who's like, you know, 78, 79. And these Assyrian dudes at the coffee shop, and you know. And like, I literally was like, "Well, like, so what, Mom?" Why... but she's saying that, because she's trying to say like, "They're sitting there and they're..." Like, she's trying to say something, you know what I mean? That's my mom, always does shit like that.

Like, because, who, what is the point of that? (therapist responds) I know that Uncle goes to... I mean, he can go wherever he wants. He's living his life. I don't... And yes, he goes to the coffee shop, and yes, he goes with your dad's sister's... I mean... "What do you, what are you trying to say? Like, should he not do that or... Did you want him to come here and just sit here for 24 hours? Because you don't want that, either." You know what I mean? "So what do you want? Like, you want him to just hate that uncle or something?" Like, it's all this, you know what I mean? It's all this little fucking, you know... [00:33:40]

And my other aunt does that, too. All the broads in the family do that. They've all, my, you know, God rest her soul, but my aunt who passed away used to do that, my mom does it, the other aunt does it. The only person who doesn't do it is my fucking grandmother, you know? So I don't know if my grandpa, it's like this kind of... angry something, you know, something is going on, you know.

THERAPIST: Destructive envy.

CLIENT: And of what? What's the envy? They're a bunch of bozos, sitting at a coffee shop, talking about what's happening in geopolitics. What? Like, that's what, you know... It's just, I don't know. I don't know. That's a very negative, negative... It's a waste of brain... like, who cares? I just don't care. I literally do not care. But what I've hated about that is, you can say you don't care as much as you want, but when you're a kid, growing up, you cannot care that maybe you're not like that. But your parent is, it affects you. Then you do start, you catch yourself in moments, where like, you know, you start feeling... [00:34:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yes, of course.

CLIENT: You start feeling res , my uncle, they're going to the beach and... you know. It's like, "Who the fuck gives a shit? They're not sitting around plotting ways to like, leave their sister out or leave me out or..." It's, you know, it's awful. And also, the thing is, I mean I've told her this, but she, you can't change people who are like, in their 70s. It's like, "You're doing yourself a disservice," (therapist responds) you know what I mean? Her new thing... I've told her a million times... We'll be talking, if my uncle asks me how this life-coaching thing is going, my mom inevitably brings up his wife.

"Oh, so, you said I can refer people, clients to you?" And I'm like, "Mom, these things have nothing to do with each other. Janice (ph) deals with ill people, medically sick people, all right? Just don't..." But she has to feel like... "Oh, my son's doing some... He's going to have an office!" Like, for her it's a big thing, to have an office, you know? It's like, "Dude! That's just some, that's just pathetic." You know? And you're just annoying people. They're being nice, they're not saying anything, but it's just pathetic, you know. Your insecurity, you're wearing it like a necklace, you know. [00:36:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like, she has to cough it up somehow.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, you know?

THERAPIST: Be able to feel good with that.

CLIENT: "Oh, so life, so it's kind of like psychology." It's like, "No, it's not. This has nothing to do with psychology, really. It's not. They're separate businesses and fields of study and psychology is medical. That's all about medical... a body of knowledge that is systematized and you have to study it and get licensed and... It has nothing to do..." You know what I mean? She has to like... you know?

THERAPIST: Legitimize it for herself.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly, yeah. (pause) so that's what I mean by, you know, that feeling, that means that she feels that somehow other people's lives are like, something magical, something else, so foreign, you know what I mean? (therapist responds)

Like, I'll be like, "Mom, why don't you go to this ba-ba-ba-ba-ba event."

"Well, no, because Betty is going with..."

"Well, yeah. You're like, best friends with Betty."

"Well, she's going with, she has a husband and..." And you know, she's trying to say like, you know, ell, the subtext is, "I'm alone, I'm kind of like an outcast, ba-ba-ba, Betty's got a husband," so somehow she's kind of up here (therapist responds), without any, it's like, do you remember being married? [00:37:28]

So what, they're frolicking in the, having picnics? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's... you know? They're alone, too. You know, when they get in bed, trust me (both chuckle), you know like, this feel , this sense that... I don't know. It's a very, very negative... I would say, if I had to pick one thing, that's their most unhealthy... and it's what's fucked them the most, you know. Because it will stop you from doing anything. I could do this, but... you know. I could go on to be an opera singer, but, those other opera s -, you know, they have something, they know people, you know. They have connections or... You know what I mean? Like, there is always something that you don't (chuckles) have that... So why, you know, might as well just make up excuses and... [00:38:22]

THERAPIST: It's a profound idealization of the other. It isn't real.

CLIENT: Right, right. And a hatred of the self, you know. They hate themselves, I think.

THERAPIST: Devaluation of themselves and idealization of others. People schlepping to the beach have problems, too. And they have problems at the beach! (chuckles)

CLIENT: And the thing is, you know, it's funny like, my friend, who's not my friend, Donnie. Remember, at, yeah? Same thing. Right? Now he... I mean, different. I mean, my mom, luckily, is healthy enough that she has wonderful friends and you know, so... because the rest of them don't. It's unbelievable, this f , my other aunt did it, the one who died. My mom and dad were the only ones who have a huge network, you know? So now that I, I'm like, "That's... that's really (chuckles) good," you know. Donnie's got nothing. No friends. He's constantly, same thing, constantly like this, you know what I mean? [00:39:27]

Somehow, everyone else is better off. Somehow everyone else is looking at him funny, somehow... You know what I mean? It's like, that's a... (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Unreal.

CLIENT: That's a very destructive, awful... because when I look back... I was telling Eric, I'm like, "Dude, you know what? When I hung out with Donnie, I thought I was hanging out with my family." (therapist responds) That was part of why (chuckles) I was so comfortable. (therapist responds) We could just judge everybody and... you know what I mean? Seclude ourselves and... it was funny as hell and all that, but really, that's...

THERAPIST: (pause) (inaudible) tomorrow.

CLIENT: Okay. 3:30? Thanks.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah. 3:10, actually.

CLIENT: 3:10, that's right. (therapist affirms) One day off!

THERAPIST: Right!

CLIENT: Thanks, Claire (ph)

THERAPIST: Bye!

CLIENT: Bye!

END TRANSCRIPT