TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So I'm kind of psyched, man. I found an amazing office.

THERAPIST: Really? Hmm.

CLIENT: Right... almost next to a hotel. It's what I envisioned, you know what I mean? It's clean and modern. Everybody was really nice and people that I clicked with. The woman... they're all therapists. I think there's one or two social workers maybe. But she... we talked for quite a long time. She was like, we'd love... you'd be the first life coach here. She would love to have someone doing that.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Is this for a sublease?

CLIENT: It's... so I would have to take two four-hour blocks.

THERAPIST: Okay. [0:00:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. So now that's the thing. It's $350 a month. (Pause) So... which... it was... we talked about that, too. She was like, where are you right now in terms of whatever? And we were... I was like, well, I mean... I was like, to be honest, part of the reason I'm doing this is because I feel like you've got to dive in somehow.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And something like this is highly motivating, I mean. She's like, no, a number of us were the same way. The building's been there a year.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Hmm, it's a new building?

CLIENT: It's very new, yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: Eva (sp?), Eva something? Basically this woman rented the whole building, and then she... let's say this was... you had rented everything here...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then you rent out... you have a deal with the owner. And you, I don't know, whatever they do. But yes, this is their first year. [0:01:57] And she's like, a number of us were the same way. We just kind of... the first whatever months or even a year it's tough. You're trying to scramble to pay the rent and all that. But... so that was nice to hear. She was like, yeah, there's no easy way, I mean, unless you already have a ton of... I mean, you're not going to pick them off a tree. And I was telling her, I was like, this is kind of what I was looking for, because see, this is conducive. You're projecting. It's a brand in a way, you know what I mean? You want people to... like when I come here, I... it's nice and spacious and comfortable, and that matters for people...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Especially when you can't do anything about insurance, and you have to charge them a certain amount. So we were talking about that. I don't know, I'm... and she was really cool. She was like, we try to get together every Friday, and we just talk about work and just whatever, whatever comes up.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:02:59]

CLIENT: And she's like, we're all very friendly. And she's like, we do... we refer people to each other and all that stuff.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, she was cool. And she was like, yeah, so how'd you get into life...? I told her my whole story kind of. And she was like, that sounds great. What...? I told her... I was like, I see some... they know you. I mean, they don't know you, but they know of you?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: She's like, yeah, I've heard of her. I was like, yeah, she's been amazing. But yeah, I just said how I've done all this other grad stuff and writing and whatever, but that it's as if all this has led to this perfect kind of fit for...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So, yeah... and she was very helpful. I told her about that I might do the Boston College thing. She was like, you should look into Brandeis?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: She's like, they have master's programs, too. They have things online. She... this woman's on the board or something ?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:04:06] And she was like, you should totally look in to that, that that might be something really good (inaudible at 0:04:12). I don't know, it just... it felt good. And I met a couple of the therapists who were there.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: They're all... it reminded me of you and this vibe here.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Everyone's kind of youngish? Or even if they're not there's just something. People seem very friendly and kind of vibrant and open. And that's... it felt really good. It also felt good because, when I was talking to her, I didn't feel like a fraud. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I'm sitting in this very nice office, whatever, and I felt like, yeah. I felt like... I didn't feel any weird... do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I'm not a therapist, I'm not trying to be a therapist. But I felt totally comfortable. [0:04:57] I could see myself there. I mean, that felt good.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that has something to it, yeah.

CLIENT: I didn't feel weird or like all these people are better than me or whatever it is.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So now I've got to scramble. I mean, I've got to figure out a way to pay that... oh, and the one thing you do have to have is comprehensive... she has a deal with the owner.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And the owner has stipulated that everyone in the building has to have... if someone falls or whatever...

THERAPIST: Yeah, trip and slip insurance.

CLIENT: Comprehensive whatever it's called, yeah. I think... so she was like, it's generally $300 to $500 a year.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like, yeah, it's not that bad, but it's an expense. So yeah, so I immediately called (chuckling) my credit unions.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: So I've got to... I think I need... I clearly need to take a small loan.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [0:05:55] Everyone has to... in a building has to have that even if they're subleasing.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: It's just, I guess, the landlord's just like, I don't want any issues...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Conservative coverage.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's the same owner as the hotel, so my arming in people. So yeah, I mean, I think I'm going to...

THERAPIST: Going to do it?

CLIENT: I'm just going to dive in. Yeah...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Because also it's a sub... they're not locking me into... they want just a security and the rent. That's...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Is it a year contract or anything like that?

CLIENT: It didn't sound like it. It didn't sound like it. And even if it is, I mean, you've got to... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, a year is just the right amount of time to bust your ass and try to make it work.

THERAPIST: It's an investment.

CLIENT: It's an investment, and it's a motivator, you know what I mean? It's a beautiful space. There's nice people. There's... at that point it's all on you. You've got to start hustling... [0:06:57]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And there's no excuse. You have a space, you have...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You're ready to go. You've got to hustle and make it happen. So I don't know. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Are there additional expenses living (ph) there, or (crosstalk)?

CLIENT: She didn't mention any. She's like, that...

THERAPIST: Including everything?

CLIENT: Security... yeah. There's wifi, mifi (sp?), all that stuff.

THERAPIST: That's included? Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: Everything's included. Yeah, everything's included. She's like, you get your mail here. Obviously use it as your business address, all that stuff. The other thing that... she was very candid. She's like, obviously, you're from here, whatever, you know. But she's like, we charge a certain amount. You... people around here go to therapy. They try to better themselves. I mean, that's the kind of place this is.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And she's like, that's the location. People around here have money. They want to better themselves. And so it's good for you, it's good for them. [0:07:58] It just kind of works. It's not going to help you to have an office in Shrewsbury or some... I mean, it could.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But you can't be this little radius right here. But yeah, so it felt... I don't know, it felt really good. And especially I liked that everyone's just really nice and... I also didn't feel... they weren't weird? I don't know, maybe some therapists could be like, life coach? What the fuck, or whatever, or... I don't know if there's some kind of thing there or not. But they were just super nice and just kind of vibrant, whereas the other place I went to was the kind of therapists I hated to begin with, kind of frumpy, hair's kind of greasy, just like a hippie commune or something. You know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) [0:08:57]

CLIENT: So yeah, I don't know. I think I'm... I think I am going to have to talk to my mom, I think, and be like, look, if there's anything you can do. This is an investment in a business. It's... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that is what people do...

CLIENT: That is what people do, yeah.

THERAPIST: Go in the hole for a while, and it takes...

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: It probably takes two to three years for people to come out on the other side.

CLIENT: Exactly. It's... and the thing is, I'm so fortunate. What's the hole? (Chuckling) (inaudible at 0:09:29) my poor cousin's... Christian's has to close. They've been there 30 fucking years...

THERAPIST: [Oh, really] (ph)?

CLIENT: A Chinese place bought that block.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And they're fucking assholes. They just sent a letter saying, this is going to be your rent starting in December.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And it's like it's... they're already... it's already not easy to make money with the rent they have.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But now it's like, fuck that, it's astronomical. It's basically saying, get out. [0:09:55] I mean, they know damn well that a diner can't pay that rent.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So they want...they want them all gone. They're kicking everybody else.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So, compared to those kinds of businesses where you have inventory and overhead and equipment and whatever you have, (chuckling) what's the investment here? I don't know, I'm very excited. And quite honestly, if nothing else, it's... that will be where I go...

THERAPIST: To work.

CLIENT: Eight hours a week. And if there's no client I will write. I will... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It just... it makes you feel like you're part of something, and you're... that's important.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (Pause)

CLIENT: Then my cousin... I went to a football game yesterday. [0:10:55]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And we're almost on the fucking field. It was kind of amazing actually. It's like literally the sixth row. But... so my cousin and my other friend who... one's an insurance guy, one's a construction guy?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: They're going to get me to... I guess there's something called the (pause) something networking. A bunch of business people got together, and they started this...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You know what that is?

THERAPIST: I know about this kind of thing, yeah.

CLIENT: BNI, whatever it is? Yeah, they get together once a week at 7:00 AM, and they just chitchat. They... and you have to refer people to each other, whatever.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: it sounds ridiculous and idiotic, but I'm going to do it...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Especially because they're in it, because my friend Devin (sp?) the construction guy's like... in Assyrian, he's like, dude, it's all bullshit. He's like, I hate it.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: He's like, I have nothing to say every week. Hey, I'm Devin, I paint houses. But he's like, they're good people, and...

THERAPIST: [It starts a referral network] (ph), yeah. [0:11:58] Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Because really I was thinking (pause) conservative, right, I'm going to charge $125, $150? I still haven't kind of decided? But let's say I charged $100 an hour, right?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That means, in a four-hour block, I've already more than paid my rent. So then, once I got going...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And that's conservative. That's if I was charging just $100 an hour. The average rate is closer to $200. $150 to $200.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not going to be easy. A lot of people don't want to dish that out all the time. But a lot of people do. It's just about... oh, that's the other thing. She was saying... and I think this is good, a lot of the therapists in that building... not a lot, but a number of them are strictly out of pocket. They don't take any insurance.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So that's kind of good. That means the people that come to that building... you know what I mean? [0:12:57] (Pause)

THERAPIST: You used to get mad when people wouldn't take insurance, that it's only meant for the wealthy and (crosstalk) (chuckling).

CLIENT: Well, but... yeah, but... Did I used to get mad that they wouldn't take insurance? Really?

THERAPIST: Well, what... you'd say things like, what about the person who doesn't have much money, how does that person get help?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, I've clearly made a decision that this business is right for me. And yeah, I don't like the fact that...

THERAPIST: You have to come over to the other side in thinking about it.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. Yeah, I have to go to the 1%, yeah. And I hate it.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: No, I do hate that, I do. And my goal will be... I mean, if I could get to the point where I'm making a nice living, there's no... I would have to call bullshit on myself if I don't make some time to see people that can't afford it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then I'm a fucking asshole. [0:13:56] But yeah, no, that does... yeah. I've taken into account that I think a lot of people I will see...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: Are not people maybe that I want to be best friends with, you know what I mean? Who sees a life coach? Overachievers and...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Not all, not all. But, for that price, who's going to be able to afford that? People that already, in whatever capacity, have the money to... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I think you have to choose your battles and choose your... you know?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause)

CLIENT: And at the end of the day you could... it'd be the same if I got a really nice teaching job at a nice university, and I'd be dealing with a lot of spoiled brats. So I... yeah, you just... I've had, I think... yeah, I've made a decision to kind of pick and choose.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:14:59] Hmm. But I think some people actually think of it as having... building into their fee, whatever is their standard fee, an idea that it's actually slightly higher than what they want, so that there's even room to think about... so therefore you could see people...

CLIENT: I read about that. Yeah, I read about... people were saying, if you're going to charge $100, charge $150. And that way you'd know that...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Some people could afford that. Then you could see some people for $50.

CLIENT: That's right, because you've padded it a little bit. And still it's not unreasonable. It's in the market value rate.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Then that way, when you do see someone for $50 or whatever it is, you're fine, because you've accounted for the... yeah. And that's why, if everyone was going to pay $100, I would just do $100.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But, exactly because of that, it's got to be more, I think, than that, because I also know myself. I'm... it's going to be hard for me to say no. I'm going to have to be careful about that.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: She was very candid about that, too, that... she was great actually about that. [0:15:59] She was like, you have to take into account that you're projecting something. So people will be happy to pay you $50 an hour. But they'll also view it a certain way. That's just the reality. They won't... they might not see the worth in it as much. And I think...

THERAPIST: Unless they don't have a lot of money. Right? That's a different person. Someone for whom $50 is (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Oh yeah, I think... but I think what she's saying is what you're saying. Set it up here, and then the people who really need it... you know what I mean? Then that's different.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But if you start with, oh, I just need to start my business... so sure, just willy nilly... she's like, that's not sustainable business. And that was the other thing. She was like, we're really good here about trying to be supportive about setting it up from the beginning to be a feasible long-term sustainable thing rather than...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:17:00]

CLIENT: She said something about how a lot of people take insurance. And she said they don't take into account that they might not be getting enough. They might be a shitty (ph) insurance or whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So she's like, then they don't realize. They think, oh, no problem. I'm getting it from insurance. But it's like, then they get into a hole that way as well.

THERAPIST: Yeah, insurance is reimbursed [with varying results] (ph) (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Most people, once they get good enough or earn (ph) enough, go out of network.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So... (Pause) Yeah. (Pause) Yeah, I don't know. It feels good to have purpose, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Or not... it feels good to have a day to day purpose.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, I have purpose, but a day to day structured. That's something... I mean, how wonderful. That's mine, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: When I go to work, I'm going to my work. [0:17:58] That's... what an amazing feeling that is.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Your own business, you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I... of course I'll bust my ass 20... that's what people do. You bust... I'll bust my ass 24 hours a day, I don't care.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It's mine, and I'll do it with pleasure. (Pause) And the thing is, it's only eight hour blocks. But it's life coaching. A lot of life coaching, I might have... eventually have clients who it's with Skype. It's with... that's what a lot of life coaches do. So I'm not restricted to those eight hours where I can only see people eight hours.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I can... life coaching's different that way. Someone might want you to just go to their house. Someone might want to just meet you at a caf�, someone... it is flexible in that way.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:18:56]

CLIENT: My goal is just to present a very professional (pause) company, not some flimsy...

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause)

CLIENT: The other... totally unrelated, the other thing that happened is... so yesterday I... so my cousin-in-law and then my other... our other friend is Assyrian, too. They're... so they're both... what are they, 35, 36, 37, something like that? So Devin, he was showing me his new baby and videos and stuff. And my cousin-in-law doesn't really speak Assyrian? But Devin was... came to this country when he was very little. So he was still very...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So I don't know. We were... and I was looking at those. And then we get there. Have you been to the stadium any time?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's... I hadn't been there in... for a long time. [0:19:55] I could not believe what the fuck that place is now.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So we're in the, whatever, restaurant thing. (Chuckling) And we're just like, what the fuck? And they run into a girl that they know, an Assyrian girl that they know.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm?

CLIENT: This girl was so cute. She was so cool. And her boyfriend's not Assyrian, whatever. We just got to talking, and I was telling them... I was like, dude. It's like, what? So that girl's... where are these girls? I've never seen that girl in my life. So they were like, dude, you've got to come to church, man.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: You don't believe, and you're a sinner. But you've got to...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It sounds kind of old school, but she comes to church. She's on this committee and that committee. And she gets involved, and they're like, it's... it is what it is.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But anyway, so then on the way home, I was like, man... (Pause) He showed me another video of his little girl. And he's speaking Assyrian to her in the video. [0:20:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I don't know. I was like, see, that's important to me, man. That's... it sounds so good. It's so...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Just...

THERAPIST: The language, you're saying?

CLIENT: The language. Yeah, the language, yeah. I mean, I want them to be... totally be American, I mean, like me, I mean, totally cosmopolitan, totally... it's not about nationalism or anything. It's just about, language is important, man.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It's a beautiful language, first of all. But it's ancient. What an amazing thing, man. It's thousands of years old.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, just... it was so nice to see him interacting with his little girl and... I don't know, I don't know. It's just... it's a very tough quandary.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause) [0:21:56]

CLIENT: And I'll tell you... so then we ran into them again at our seats. (Chuckling) They were actually sitting near us, of all places. So we all walked back together to our cars?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And me and Devin started talking to her, so... then Devin realized he knows her from high school.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So the three of us started talking, and I could totally tell she was getting a kick out of the fact that we were talking Assyrian, and real Assyrian, not broken, Americanized Assyrian...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Because her Assyrian is... she kind of knows it, but she kind of... and I could totally tell she was into that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And that's just... that just feels good. There's something about that, see? That's what's missing, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So... but it's hard. I haven't seen a girl like that. She was kind of blonde and really cool and just really nice and totally Americanized. But then, when she opened her mouth and said some Assyrian stuff, I was like... I mean, that's a turn on. [0:22:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's so rare.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause) You going to start going to church (chuckling)?

CLIENT: I joked with them. I was like, you know what? If I... it's the one right by my house. It's not my church? I mean, they're all Assyrian churches, but it's not my parish. But I don't care. It's literally two buildings from my house.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Might as well. And plus I know... they seem to know people. So they'll be my wingmen.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: One's gay, and the other one's my cousin-in-law. So... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They were even joking. They were like, dude, this guy's kind of a doofus. It's not like they're married. That's just her boyfriend. They don't live together. They don't... I mean, you've got to work your charm.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, Tim was like, there's an Assyrian professional mixer thing at this bar (sp?) here, at the...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:23:58]

CLIENT: And I kind of hate that shit. I never go to those things. But I think I... if this is such an issue, it's not going to hurt to go and have a beer, I guess.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Why are you down on it? What's not (crosstalk)?

CLIENT: Because generally they're people that just are not my... I mean, even that girl, right?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: She's not quite... you know what I mean? She's got her football jersey. It's a little square for me, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That's the issue. So I'll go to these things, and... I'm a dental hygienist, I'm an attorney, I'm a real estate agent. They're a little cookie cutter.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And what do you do? I'm a writer and a... I've carved my own thing out in life. And it's a little bit... they just kind of, all right. This guy's not going to be able to afford a nice house in Greenwich (sp?) clearly. And that's... a lot of that happens. They do... they are... they're not really there to get business referrals. [0:24:57] People... they're people that also want to marry an Assyrian dude.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

CLIENT: And... (Pause) They're just definitely more conventional in that way. And so that's why I've... and also because with a lot of them... remember I was saying I still can't make the...? They're either so Americanized that they're not Assyrian enough almost, or, if they're so Assyrian, then they're not Americanized enough. There's not... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: They're either... they barely know Assyrian, they... what's the point, in a way? Just because they're blood is... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: What is this, eugenics or whatever? Or they're so Assyrian that it's like you're marrying your cousin from the old country or something. They're not... they're going to come with me to my show at the Middle East? [0:25:59] I mean, they might, I guess, but...

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: It's a little old...

THERAPIST: You feel disconnected there.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's old school, it's ultra old school.

THERAPIST: Yeah, mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It's... because Devin... see, that's the thing, too. He, even though I loved all that about him... but we're very different. He's... I love that. He's a great guy. He dresses kind of... he acts kind of like he's still from there, you know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Mmm, mm-hmm.

CLIENT: He... even when he speaks English he kind of has an accent, even though he was little when he came here. He kind of acts already like a 45-year-old kind of conventional dude. [His phone] (ph) is right here. You know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That's the other issue, too. I love that stuff, but it's also kind of not me in a way. It's just the language that's important, you know what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) [0:26:59]

CLIENT: And I guess you could argue, well, whatever. Even if she's not Assyrian, you speak Assyrian. You teach your kids Assyrian, you get together with someone who's really cool that knows you want to put your kid in the Assyrian school or... I mean, it's...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (Pause) Yeah, it's like you're thinking about what's going to be good enough. If it's not totally perfect, what are the things that feel like you can compromise on?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I'm starting to think about, yeah.

THERAPIST: And what can't you? Like life coaching in a way. It's not...

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: It's not maybe a perfect dream job in that some older idealistic sense, but there's...

CLIENT: It's damn close, yeah.

THERAPIST: It's good enough. It had... you enjoy it, you want to work for yourself...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's... you're going to make money...

CLIENT: You're helping people while making money. [0:27:58]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So it's not just some douchey thing, yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, that's what... see, this girl, that's what I thought of, is, see, I can... I think I could live with that. I mean, in general, not her specifically. But it's like, all right, I don't know. Can I...? For example can I come here to a football game? I don't even go to football games. I was like, I guess I could.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know. Or even someone that's so involved with the church. I've always kind of... I don't know. But yeah, I mean, as long as she's not forcing me to... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: We don't have to be exactly the same. But yeah, it is thinking... I am starting to think about ways I can... I need to, I think, pick and choose and be a little more malleable...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: About, okay, so she doesn't dress so artsy fartsy or whatever. [0:28:56]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, at the end of the day, I guess you've got to...

THERAPIST: What really matters? Yeah.

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: And some things will really matter.

CLIENT: And some things do, yeah.

THERAPIST: And some things maybe are not as important.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe she'll have a cool sense of style but different than what I think of that. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And you've just got to see if you can live with that or not. (Pause) I mean, that's what my friends say anyway. It's all this stuff is about what can you live with. None of them have perfect marriages or perfect...

THERAPIST: It doesn't exist.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking about that yesterday when you were talking about... it's similar to what you're saying now about the feeling of these people you've dated, where you're picturing going to their family or going to Quebec or Newfoundland, and how foreign it's felt, and sort of how it never could feel like you could imagine your lives coming together, that they felt so different. [0:29:58] There's certainly the cultural, linguistic reasons for that. But I also wonder (inaudible at 0:30:05) isn't something that that tells us about your early relational life with your own mother, maybe your father, too. But I'm thinking specifically of your mother.

CLIENT: Well, with the whole family, yeah. You mean the cocooning...?

THERAPIST: I know that's the cocooning part you were talking about, but I'm actually thinking about what it feels like... were you ever known by your mother in a way? Really, your different separateness, the way you were different from her, the things about you that were idiosyncratic to you, and would be like no other, no [square dentist] (ph), no really feeling like you were known as a separate person, so that difference was just difference. And it actually is part of what makes people exciting. [0:30:58]

CLIENT: It doesn't rattle you or something, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. Instead of it feeling foreign. There's a way...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Anything that felt different about you as her child, that went beyond her narcissistic needs, she pathologized...

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: So that there is a sense of, you have to either be on the inside of what I think is right, or any other difference is not good. There's not a lot of room for your development and to include, right, we're really different on this. I think this way, and you think this way. Neither one's right or wrong.

CLIENT: So what? Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you like this, and I like this. And that's cool that we're different. I really want to know more about what you like...

CLIENT: I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: Even though it's not what I like.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: So difference doesn't have to feel so foreign. (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: So instead of just going to someone's house, being like, oh, this is cool, you guys, well, this is a nice area up here...

THERAPIST: Wow, this is [what they do] (ph).

CLIENT: Or whatever, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I wouldn't do it, but I want to know... rather than... there's so much judgment hanging over things.

CLIENT: Judgment, and there's... it's almost antagonistic or something.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:31:56]

CLIENT: What does pathologize mean again?

THERAPIST: Well, making it a bad thing. If you don't do what I do, then it's... your thing is...

CLIENT: Turning it into a negative, yeah.

THERAPIST: Being an artist, it's a sort of, stop playing piano. You're making too much noise. Even just at that level of...

CLIENT: You know what's funny, that...? Not to cut you off, but it's funny because it's connected.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: On my way here, I was like, oh fuck. I don't want to ask my mom to help me with this. But then I almost started laughing. I was like, but the funny thing is, this is the one thing she probably will want.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: I took some pictures of the office, whatever. It's an office, it's in Brown Square, it's a business. It's... that's probably going to motivate her to try to help me. And that's exactly... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Because it fits in that whole... it doesn't seem as...

CLIENT: Yeah. Not that... I mean, she helped me with school and stuff. But even school, it wasn't about being an artist.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It was about, my son's a professor, he's an academic. He's... very proud of... and that's great. But yeah, it's this picking and choosing, you know what I mean? [0:32:54]

THERAPIST: According to what... her narcissistic needs...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Instead of, I like this, what does he like?

CLIENT: Yeah. Or she'll be like... my record, she'll be like, did you have to pay for this? No, Mom, Dave... I have a deal with Dave. And she almost doesn't get that. Wait, so all this work was for free? I'm like, well, it's not really for free. I have a deal with Dave. Once it starts making money, it's like he has a point. We have a deal. And she almost doesn't get why someone who's not really family doesn't... just some stranger. (Chuckling) It's like she doesn't understand that there are artists or friends or whatever, people that just want to do things for the love and pleasure and productivity and creativity of doing something.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: It's like, wow, man. Is that so foreign? I don't... it's so weird that a poet doesn't get that. It's sad for her.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) [0:33:59]

CLIENT: But yeah. I mean, yeah, so basically she does that with...

THERAPIST: With everything.

CLIENT: With everything, yeah.

THERAPIST: Everything you describe, it's... her worldview is the only worldview.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, which then is reinforced by the rest of her family.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There's no one in... there's no one else... it's not like her brother will say, well, (inaudible at 0:34:18). I mean, he's getting more and more conservative the more money he makes. To him... they even say, him and my other uncle... my aunt's passed away, her husband, that one, he just says it openly. He's like, this country's about money. You've got to make as much money as you can. Everything else is nonsense. And contextually I get that, because yeah, their lives have been pretty fucking hard. And they look around them, and all they see is hardship. And everything's an uphill battle. And that... they look around. And because they're politically minded as well, they just say that right... might makes right. [0:34:59] And it's just whoever has the money and the power, and it's all... I get all that. But that's quite a narrow and kind of fatalistic way to look at things. It's a big world.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And not everybody is exactly the same. Or that could be that way for you, but there's no reason why... Claire (sp?) wants to go to clown school. Who gives a fuck? I hope she becomes the best fucking clown ever. I... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: You don't have to... maybe in my mind, I don't get that at all. Who cares? I don't need to be like... you know what I mean? They don't have that filter. It's like, this country's all about money. It's like, well, all right. I mean, that's... I mean, the world is about... I mean, everybody needs money.

THERAPIST: I think it's another extreme sort of, I know what's right. And the only answer, [view, in and of itself] (ph), right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yes, money's important in reality.

CLIENT: No shit.

THERAPIST: There's not room for other people to place other things as more important.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:35:56]

THERAPIST: And you just say, I wouldn't do that for myself because I want to have certain things in my life.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But more power to that person.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. Yeah, no, they don't have that. I mean, they'll... in the same breath they'll say, oh, good for you, music. It's not that he's denying all that...

THERAPIST: Hmm, yeah.

CLIENT: So I see... but I see what they're saying. They're saying, look. I mean, some of what they're saying is, we're not going to be around forever. I think it is still like a parental or elder wisdom...

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: They're like, look, times are tough. Look around you. Look how difficult things are.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yes, you have... we have homes or whatever. But look how much we have to spend to prepare those. Everything takes money, and things have gotten expensive. And I get all that. But again, it's not... things aren't black and white. You can make plenty of money somehow in the realm of still having the kind of life you want to have.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:36:57] I think what was hard about how extreme it was with your mom and her family, is that it didn't... maybe didn't give you early on a sense of, that there's not enough gray area to figure out how to make this practically...

CLIENT: None.

THERAPIST: How to make being an artist practically work...

CLIENT: No, no, no.

THERAPIST: So that you do have money (crosstalk).

CLIENT: No, I had to literally forget that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But the thing was, forget that, or, it's a hobby.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Become a doctor, and then...

THERAPIST: Or, in order to embody it and own it, in some ways you had to forget the practical part. It's sort of like, those are the two identities you could be. Either be a dentist... right?

CLIENT: Oh, right, yeah. So it forced me to kind of not think...

THERAPIST: Rebel against, right.

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. To not think through, and then to think that it's a compromise to go to graduate school and become a professor, and...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Which... some of which... I will say, though, one thing about that is, I'd be happy to do that.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But it's also things... my... I feel like my generation is the last one that was duped into the old view of, oh, man, my professor's so cool. That...those guys were... those were professors from the 50s and 60s, who then got older into the 80s and 90s, you know what I mean? And they still embodied that man of letters or woman of letters. They go on their research trips in the summer, and they have a cottage somewhere out in the woods...

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: And they write their... that's gone, man. That's now a very small... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Even Brown is mostly part-timers, adjuncts, contract... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: We were duped kind of. That's... because I would have been happy if I got a... if I felt like, during that whole time, people are hiring, and it's still that 80s kind of...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But it wasn't, the more I went along. Not just me, but the economy's fucked up. Suddenly everybody's hiring adjuncts. When your professor retires, they're just divvying that up into lesser...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:38:59]

CLIENT: It's... it just... otherwise I might have been able to somehow keep going.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But, just looking at the numbers, the statistics, I was like, this is... (chuckling) I mean, you literally have to have a PhD from an Ivy League school. And even then you're not guaranteed shit. Most of those people are not getting hired right off the bat. So, I mean... and I'm not going to go teach wherever there's a job. Well, then you can't be an academic.

THERAPIST: That's not a good (crosstalk), yeah.

CLIENT: That's not a good fit, yeah. So... (Pause) The trick now with my family is going to... because I can tell they're very hesitant. [0:39:57] They're encouraging me, but I can tell. A, I'm not sure they quite get what the business is? B, I think there is some sense of, oh, now he's a life coach. I think they have that sense, because they're all about, pick something. You learn to be a jeweler, and you're [a fucking] (ph) jeweler. You become a lawyer, and you're a lawyer. What is this willy nilly this-that? So I think there's some of that.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I can just tell. They're... sometimes they're a little bit... their reaction's a little bit weird. So that's why I'm kind of tempering... I almost don't want to even talk about it. When they ask me, I'm like, it's going fine. It's a small business, you've got to bust your ass. I almost don't want to... I don't want them to taint.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) [0:41:00] I think you're describing maybe again something that you feel inside yourself or have or been questioning when you could pursue things for the sort of [old wrong] (ph) reasons and either in the direction or sort of running the opposite direction from it, that, how do you then find what actually feels like the right practical decision for you? And, when it's finally there, how do you trust that this is... this one's the right one and...?

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: But it's been sounding like you feel increasingly that this feels right.

THERAPIST: Oh, no, I do. Yeah. [0:41:55] I think the only thing is, what I'm feeling is normal things.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, I'm scared, you know what I mean? I'm starting my own... I've never had my own business. I never... it did happen kind of quickly.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But I also know how right it feels. I mean, I can just... I can tell. And the thing is, I think people... not I think, I know that people can tell. When I've talked to people, I can tell they're very engaged with what I'm saying, and they're very excited about it.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And there are enough people that I really trust who...

THERAPIST: Who know you.

CLIENT: Who know me...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And who want the best for me. There's no weird motives or anything. And we're all very honest with each other. So I can... they're... they always touch base, they're giving me marketing ideas, they're giving me... some of them are like, why haven't you started already? You've got to just jump in.

THERAPIST: (Mm-hmm (chuckling).

CLIENT: So... but I think this was a big thing, though. [0:42:57] Today, that was kind of a big deal, because it was very professional. These people are doing the real thing in a very real-thing area. So to have people like that take you seriously and welcome you and be kind of excited to have you there, and then for me to see how I'm interacting?

THERAPIST: And for you to also feel like it's a good enough fit for you...

CLIENT: For me, right.

THERAPIST: That it makes you then push to take...

CLIENT: To take the risk, yeah.

THERAPIST: To really take the plunge, yeah, which is what everybody does at the beginning.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's not a part that's unique to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that stuff, that's what feels good in this case. I don't feel weird. I felt weird about Brown. I didn't feel so weird about London, but I always felt a little off kilter, something off kilter.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: This doesn't feel that way. This just feels like... (chuckling) I see no reason why it's not going to work. [0:43:59] It's... like you said, it's just about busting your butt. And it's going to take maybe a few years or whatever. But...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And it's not negating the things that are important to me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That's the most important thing.

THERAPIST: In fact it could enhance them for a while...

CLIENT: It absolutely will enhance them.

THERAPIST: Even while...

CLIENT: I think it will, I think it will. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Exciting.

CLIENT: I'm really psyched. I'm really psyched.

THERAPIST: So you're going to sign on the dotted line?

CLIENT: I mean, yeah. I mean, I've got to figure out how to pay for it. I mean, you know what? It's also a motivator of... this bank thing? I'm going to see maybe if they could... like an equity...

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I could pay off my debts, some debts. Pay you, pay my credit card, just a couple things, you know what I mean? Have money to... a buffer for the rent.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That would be a really helpful thing. [0:44:57]

THERAPIST: Mmm. Buying you a couple years, too (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, it's really not... I don't need that much money, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Even a relatively small equity line, it doesn't have to be huge.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. You don't have one open now, right? No?

CLIENT: Oh no.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh, if we did... are you kidding? No, if we had one now, things would be very different right now.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. The issue is getting a co-signer. Your mom would have to sign it or your uncle?

CLIENT: The issue... no, I think now we might... well, now the issue is, I don't have a job. So it has to be... that's why a credit union, it has to be like, look, we have this collateral.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You've got to just take that, all right? The house has over $500,000... I mean, there's plenty of fucking equity.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: We're in the house. We take good care of it. I'm starting a small business. It's about someone just taking that as enough to give me a few thousand dollars.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: My credit's improved a little bit. [0:45:59] So... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Coming together.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: So Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks, Claire (sp?).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm going to give you a bigger check on Monday.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: On Monday I'll drop it off. I'm going to try to give you maybe $150 or something.

THERAPIST: Monday we won't be here just because it's Labor Day. I'm out but...

CLIENT: Will the door be open...?

THERAPIST: I don't know, but (crosstalk) Tuesday's fine.

CLIENT: Okay, either way Monday or Tuesday, because I'm around. So I'll drop by.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you. Have a good long weekend.

THERAPIST: Thanks, you, too.

CLIENT: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT