TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What's up? It's nice out. (Pause) So I was just walking around. I was just thinking about... oops, sorry. I hope that doesn't bother you when I crack... some people get...

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: I was just thinking about how you were saying... or you said a number of times, it's no longer about... on any particular week or month or whatever, whether I'm depressed or whether I'm feeling anxious or good or... today I was really thinking about that. [0:01:04] I was really kind of sitting with that feeling. And it's absolutely true. I was like, wow, that's why I feel kind of wacky, because when I just stop and just kind of scan how I feel, I don't feel good or bad. I just am, you know what I mean? And I think that's... it's odd. Yeah, it's an odd feeling for me. I noticed a little thing, [that was when] (ph) I stopped at the cafe. This girl came in and was super pretty. And I thought... remember how I've told you before, if I see someone super pretty, whatever, who... especially if they seem like they were kind of my type or whatever, that can... instead of just being like, oh wow, look at that beautiful girl, it can be a whole... I just feel down and... you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:01:57]

CLIENT: I noticed how, now, that just doesn't happen. Or even if it does happen it's not part of me. You know what I mean? It just pops up, and it just kind of... it's like, she got her coffee. She smiled, we smiled at each other, she left. And I was like, all right. You know what I mean? I noticed that, oh, there's that thing. If I want to go down that road, I can... so it's just interesting how it's...

THERAPIST: It's less and less egosyntonic. It's less that...

CLIENT: Less and less what?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Egosyntonic is a word we use for sort of... it's totally consistent with your sense of yourself and encompasses your whole sense of yourself.

CLIENT: Wait a second. What's the difference between that and egocentric?

THERAPIST: That's not what I mean. There's a very big difference. So egosyntonic means something that just feels like you.

CLIENT: Oh, it's a good thing. Or...

THERAPIST: It's just consistency with your sense of yourself...

CLIENT: I see. [0:02:57]

THERAPIST: As opposed to egodystonic feels like it's something alien to yourself (chuckling).

CLIENT: Let's take some notes. Fuck, that's an amazing word.

THERAPIST: It's a different valence than egocentric. It doesn't have anything to do with being self-centered or... (Pause) Egosyntonic, S Y N.

CLIENT: Oh, S.

THERAPIST: And egodystonic.

CLIENT: Huh, okay.

THERAPIST: So it's like being... it falls in line and fits right in with your sense of yourself...

CLIENT: Got it. Whatever it might be.

THERAPIST: Versus, if you started hallucinating, you might feel like, wait, what's happening to me? This isn't me. This isn't actually happening to me.

CLIENT: Got it, yeah.

THERAPIST: it sounds like it's starting to separate a little bit, these kinds of experiences, from feeling like they're just totally you. This is how you think, this is what...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It becomes something, a flash of something you can recognize, but there's some separateness from it.

CLIENT: And I'm still... so that is what?

THERAPIST: Feeling more and more egodystonic. It's not... it's no longer taking away your sense of yourself.

CLIENT: Okay, got it. [0:03:57] So these things that... what I just talked about, that... okay, so that's egodystonic.

THERAPIST: Yes, and it's moving in that direction, where it's a thought that appears or a sense, oh, I could have those feelings, but...

CLIENT: But it's not really who I am, yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not really who you are. That's connected to your mother's voice or your... the sense of all these old feelings.

CLIENT: Right. Those are like the voices and thoughts of... more of your environment and your context that don't really have anything to do with who... your essence of who you are. Got it. That's awesome, okay. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Sorry for the big words (chuckling). It's jargon.

CLIENT: No, I want to know what those words... that's awesome. Yeah, because even... I was walking around, and it's not that I don't feel melancholy? Yeah, because I do think... I'm like, yeah, why am I...? Why have I been able to accomplish a lot of other things, but I can't... I haven't... why haven't I had one relationship that I can point to and say, yeah, that was exactly the kind of girl I wanted or very close to the kind of girl I wanted, and she lived around here, and...? You know what I mean? [0:05:07] And it was all just nice. We just dated, even if it didn't work out. We dated, and it was nice, and she was my girlfriend. You know what I mean? I don't get that about... that is a mystery to me still. I mean, I get what some of the factors might be? But I guess what I'm saying though is, even when that kind of bums we out, I'm walking around, I feel melancholic about it? But I don't... yeah, it doesn't change the consistency of my days, you know what I mean? How I am daily, you know what I mean? Which is amazing. But I can also see how that's kind of unsettling, because then I have all this space in my mind (chuckling). [0:05:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that used to take up so much energy and space and...

CLIENT: Yeah. I've... I was just reading... I always go back to this Julia Kristeva book about... have you read this?

THERAPIST: Which one?

CLIENT: Depression and Melancholy?

THERAPIST: I read parts of it, not the whole book.

CLIENT: Okay. But anyhow she's French, so half the time who the fuck knows what she's saying? But I did notice though that... I was reading some sentences. And I do have trouble... I still have trouble kind of concentrating or focusing in the moment (pause), but less so. So there were some sentences where I was like, oh, I think I know exactly what that sentence means (chuckling). That's a good feeling, instead of just reading it and being like, wait, what? What did I just read? I don't know what I'm reading. It's getting a little better with stuff like this that before I'd be like, I just have no idea what's going on here. [0:06:57] I don't know what these words are. I don't even get the... and I even have moments where I can't follow the grammatical structure of the sentence, which is really disconcerting. But now I don't get upset about that. I just... I'm like, fine, just keep going, don't stop and get all stressed about what that... and then eventually I pick up one sentence that I really get. And it's...

THERAPIST: Because also, Artuk (sp?), you're talking about reading some pretty heavy-handed authors who a lot of people don't... I mean, people spend entire careers trying...

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. But you know how it is. If you're both an artist and you've also been in school and then grad school and then... I mean, you know how it... people talk about this shit as if they... some of them are faking it.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk)?

CLIENT: Right, no, I'm with you. But still, if you're someone that is like me, that's really intimidating. [0:07:56] Then it makes you feel shitty that you don't... how come you can't talk about things like that, or...? Even if they're pretending, why am I not able to read that and then pretend some very intimidating articulation about that or something? You know what I mean? I'm just not... it's not in me. That's one. And two is I just... I mean, then there are people who do have substantive things to say about stuff that they read. And I think I'm in that camp, so it just... it bothers me, or it has bothered me when I just feel like I'm just glazing over (pause), because I know that some of that is definitely... yeah, you're totally right. Who knows what the hell they're talking about? But some of that also... I think it is just my situation. When there's so much static constantly, just... you're being barraged by negative thoughts and this, worries, and whatever. [0:08:55] Even reading Danielle Steel would probably be... I'd probably forget the paragraph I just read. There's a lot of that. Sometimes I do get what I'm reading.

THERAPIST: Yeah, (crosstalk), that's different.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I'm just forgetting immediately. I can't retain information. So that's gotten better. But...

THERAPIST: Yeah, now it's sort of moving towards where there's more freedom to say, okay, I didn't get those sentences, and not be so critical of yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, now I don't care so much. Like this book. I don't care now that I'm reading it... I flip through it. I read different chapters. And I go back to the beginning, and I read that again. Who cares? In the past I was just... I'd be very dogmatic and hard on myself about that shit. Like, no, you pick it up, and you read it, and you make notes, and rrrrrrrrr (sp?).

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was really hard on myself. But again it's because I projected. [0:09:56] I assumed or I imagined that there are other people who get these things, and they make little notes. What are those notes that they're making? What's the...? What are the insights they're having when they read things, and...? Yeah. It was really...

THERAPIST: Other people. Because I hear your notes all the time about the things you're reading. You have notes.

CLIENT: Right, but again...

THERAPIST: I don't know whether you're writing them in the margin or not, but you have things you're thinking.

CLIENT: Yeah, but you know what I mean. It's like with everything else, written (ph) music, just that projection that I always have that some... even though I...

THERAPIST: Yeah, other people somehow...

CLIENT: Are doing it better, or they're more together, or they're the real thing, or they're something. I don't know what... how to describe it. But yeah, I have a great band, and I'm a good songwriter. But somehow I'm not cool enough, or I'm not whatever that thing is that I'm perceiving that other people have (pause), that now I know is just exactly that. [0:10:59] It's just what I'm projecting or thinking that I perceive. It's just another way to kind of put yourself down or to think you're less than other people. (Pause) So yeah, now that I don't feel that as much, it's much easier now. I just pick up a book, and who gives a shit? I just want to read a couple pages of this, and I'm done. I don't have to write a paper about it. So...

THERAPIST: Or if you want to read more because you want to read more you'll read more...

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: But not feeling like you have to in order to feel good about yourself.

CLIENT: Or that, even if I read it from cover to cover, not caring whether I have major insights or whether I get everything she's talking about or... so... (Pause) But yeah, I think just in general that's the big... yeah, I really kind of... yeah. [0:12:01] Today I was kind of just walking around, just kind of feeling the feeling of (chuckling) not having extreme feelings. It was just interesting. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Feeling the feeling of not being manic or depressed in a way, having an ordinary emotional life, which has feelings. [There are going to be] (ph) feelings, good, bad, ugly. I mean, they're all there in ordinary people. But they're not... it's not just waiting for this terrible darkness all the time, being on top of the world, it's not... [it just hasn't been like one of those] (ph). But I think that's... you're saying it's really disorienting. [0:12:56]

CLIENT: Yeah, just... yeah, it's just very... (Pause) Yeah, it's just so new. It's like, I don't... (Pause) Yeah, I guess it is disorienting.

THERAPIST: I also think another piece you're talking about, as we were talking about all these authors and philosophers and theoreticians... that it's starting... is, what if these aren't the other who have all the right answers?

CLIENT: Right, yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I think that's been a comfort for you to sort of... the people who know what they're talking about and who are really smart and write a lot and are... sound like they know what they're talking about. And it also is a way of feeling bad about yourself, that there's this whole body of people like that. [0:13:57] And what if they have some things to contribute? But what if you disagree with some of...? What if you think they're wrong? Or...

CLIENT: Right. What if they're just regular...? At the end of the day they're just people.

THERAPIST: Who had a view that were entrenched in their own histories or their own time, their... that's kind of disorienting, too, because there's no one on the pedestal anymore.

CLIENT: Right. That's true. (Pause)

THERAPIST: You could be reading something and start saying, what a crock of shit, or she doesn't know what she's talking about (chuckling).

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I think that a lot of times when I read this I'm like, it's just this typical French... I think there's something there. But I bet you she could say it in ten pages.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [0:15:00] But, I mean, at the end of the day, all this stuff is... (Pause) Now it's about kind of doing something constructive with... you know what I mean? (Pause) I think that's the next step, is being more productive day in and day out, because I'm still not. But it's much better. But... (Pause) I mean, that's why I'm really glad I did this. I feel really nervous about the business. But see, now, I was just washing my hands down... I suddenly just remembered, oh, I have an office. And the good thing... now it's fucking real, you know what I mean? I can't be talking about, yeah (ph), I wonder how I'm going to market to... it doesn't matter. It's just got to get done. I need to figure these things out and pursue them and do them and... (Pause) [0:16:02]

So that's a good feeling. That's a really good feeling. If nothing else I'll have those blocks of time (chuckling) in the beautiful office to gather my thoughts and write or read or study for being a life coach or doing my... maybe... whatever. I don't know. I was like, maybe I should just take... I should just start taking some psychology courses anyway. I mean, I could just go to U Mass or whatever and just take some courses. Or online it's so easy now. But anyway, that... there's this... things are getting a little more... I'm forcing things to get more structured and... you know what I mean? [0:16:58] (Pause) Because that's a big part of it, too. When you have time to be scanning how you feel and think all the time, that's not good.

THERAPIST: Everybody gets cranky (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. So you need some kind of... I mean, I want my flexibility. I want whatever, whatever. But the reason I want all that is so I can have the kind of structure I want. It's not that I don't want structure or work, you know what I mean? But... so now it's time to enact that, put that together. (Pause) [0:18:00]

THERAPIST: When is your first day at the office?

CLIENT: Monday.

THERAPIST: Monday. I didn't know if it started September 1st or October 1st or...

CLIENT: I mean, I guess I could... yeah, no. I mean, I guess I could have used it yesterday. I have it Mondays and Wednesdays. 12:00 to 4:00. But yeah.

THERAPIST: So you could have used it Wednesday.

CLIENT: I could have used it Wednesday I'm pretty sure, yeah.

THERAPIST: Not yesterday.

CLIENT: Wait, what?

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk)

CLIENT: Oh yeah, Wednesday. Right, today's Friday. Sorry. Yeah. I suppose I could have, yeah. But... (Pause) [0:18:58] Yeah. So Monday I'll just go and start kind of figuring out what it's like, if... what the deal is and...

THERAPIST: Do you have set hours? I assume that there are blocks. Yeah.

CLIENT: They do it by blocks. 12:00 to 4:00 Mondays and Wednesdays...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Which is also why I had to move fast. They had other... I mean, I think that's a pretty good... it seems to be a lot of the time that people want.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I had a feeling no one wants to see a life coach at 9:00 AM or... I mean, I don't know. I think later in the day is... I mean, I still worry a little bit. I don't... (Pause) What about everybody that's working 9:00 to 5:00 or whatever, things like that. But whatever. I mean, obviously I'm here. People are here seeing therapists and whatever. So... but yeah. And then I wonder, I don't know if there's flexibility with that once you get going or... I don't know. I don't know how that works. [0:20:00] But...

THERAPIST: Ask.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, if I had some clients where they were like, I really can only come at this time, at that point I'd have to figure out what the deal is. But... (Pause)

THERAPIST: That will interfere with our Wednesday time then. 12:00 to 4:00?

CLIENT: Not right now, but yeah, at some point if it did then... because right now it's all open. So I could just tell someone to come at 2:00 or 3:00 or 4:00, whatever. But... oh, that's the other thing I don't know. Does 12:00 to 4:00 mean the last client... like, do you need to be out by 4:00?

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk) yeah, because it's a four hour block, yeah.

CLIENT: It does, right? Four hour block. Okay, that's what I thought.

THERAPIST: So you have a 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, and 3:00.

CLIENT: Right, okay. Oh yeah, that's interesting. So wait. [0:20:56] 12:00 to 1:00, 1:00 to 2:00... oh no, you could still see hour people, but chances are (inaudible at 0:21:03). Yeah, no, I mean, I'd have to have people conflicting. I mean, I hope I have that problem at some point, but... (Pause) Yeah, that's... I mean, I'm a dumbass if I don't take advantage (chuckling). You know what I mean? If I'm not there at least writing, reading, working on the business, you know what I mean, that could be my time to just... see, even that. Instead of constantly... if you don't have something structured, then you can always be thinking about it and not... this way I'm like, all right. Well, until I have the clients, those hours are for business, marketing, networking, e-mail people, I don't know, whatever.

THERAPIST: I think that's why I raise our appointment time, because that already's going to interfere. [0:21:57] Will you go there for an hour and then come here and then go back (chuckling)?

CLIENT: Probably. Yeah, I mean, it's right here.

THERAPIST: You'd lose an hour of your time that you paid for.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's... well, that's okay. I mean, that's okay for now. It's... but yeah. I mean, yeah, it's... it gives me that... or even with writing, you know what I mean? Okay, I'm going to work on the business a little bit, but then I'm going to... there's just no excuse now, you know what I mean? It's a beautiful place, peace and quiet, nice sunny vibrant place. It's on me now. So I think that's... I could tell I needed something like that to kind of... you need a good kind of pressure.

THERAPIST: So what will stop you now come Monday? Do you think you'll be there?

CLIENT: I don't think anything, no. I mean, I'll be looking forward to it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You didn't go Wednesday. I wondered why.

CLIENT: Well, Wednesday was the day I gave the lease to them.

THERAPIST: Okay, yeah.

CLIENT: I felt like it'd be kind of weird. Like, here's the lease. I'm going upstairs. [0:23:05] So yeah. (Pause) Definitely have to figure out the marketing thing though. Now it's... you can't just be sending out e-mails hoping to get clients or whatever. I've got to figure out a way to... a more specific kind of marketing. (Pause) [0:24:00] I was just thinking about Cecelia? (Chuckling) And I was thinking, today was kind of chilly in the morning. Even little things, like when I wake up, she has a habit of... at least every other day, when I wake up, I'll feel her (chuckling). I mean, it's just ridiculously cute. I sleep on my side? And I will literally feel her crunched up and mashed in this part of me like this? [0:25:00] It's like we're spooning (chuckling).

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: And I was thinking about that. I was like, that... even that is... I almost don't know what to do with it. It's so... every time it happens I can't... today I was... (laughing) and she also kind of took some of the blanket. So I was pretty cold. And I was not... but I didn't want to... I didn't want to scare her away or get her off the bed (laughing).

THERAPIST: (Laughing)

CLIENT: So I was just laying there. But even stuff like that is... I'm just not used to it still. (Pause)

THERAPIST: What's the feeling? [What's it like] (ph)?

CLIENT: It's just beautiful. It's like, now I get it. Animals are... you're not really human until you can connect with a pet. It's just such unconditional love. [0:25:56] And it's so peaceful and sweet. It's just an amazing thing. (Pause)

THERAPIST: And safe. I mean, she feels so safe with you to be able to nuzzle her way in and curl up wherever she wants to, and take up whatever space she wants to, and know that it's okay (chuckling).

CLIENT: Right, yeah, it's very sweet, yeah. And then when she does get up she'll just come up, and she just... they just know not to scratch you or... so she just puts her paw... she'll just go like this or...

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: Or she does it on my head, or she just licks the pillow right next to me. It's... that's just crazy. It's such a beautiful thing. She somehow knows, okay, I'm not going to use my claws for this one. It's so amazing. [0:26:56] (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, she's attached. I mean, she's feeling loving affection. She's not wanting to attack. It's not even in the realm of...

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, rag dolls are like that anyway. But then, when they do get attached to their owners, I think it's even more like they're just very affectionate, yeah.

THERAPIST: So affectionate. (Pause)

CLIENT: I mean, it's crazy, but now I can see why my crazy advisor here... especially someone like that who is a lunatic, now I get why his cat is his best friend, I mean, because he's so fucked up that... (Pause) It's... I'm not comparing me, but I see why some people who don't have friends, who don't have... (Pause) [0:27:59] It's sad, but at least there's comfort in... of having this living creature with you who depends on you and who... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, around him (ph) you feel safe, too. If he's that vulnerable or has that many defenses up or (crosstalk), there's so much self-protection going on [because he's been] (ph) so hurt somewhere or (crosstalk).

CLIENT: That's right, yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: You know you're safe with an animal. (Pause) [0:29:00]

CLIENT: It's interesting, I was thinking about... we have a show coming up. And it's a good bill. But I think, because of the way I've been feeling, I almost don't care that much. It's a weird feeling. It's not that I'm not looking forward to it. I just kind of... I don't find myself caring the way I used to. I care about making music, releasing, whatever (ph). But I just kind of don't care about the shows as much, I guess. I don't know. [0:30:00]

THERAPIST: So it's connected with the feeling you're having wandering around (crosstalk) what is this in between...?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not extreme. Yeah, I'm not like... I don't know, yeah.

THERAPIST: You're not terrified of it.

CLIENT: No, not at all.

THERAPIST: You're not elated bout it happening.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah, right. It's just kind of like, oh yeah, we're going to play the show. I almost don't know how I'm supposed to feel, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: Maybe that's why I had that weird... what seemed like a panic attack at the outdoor show. It was just kind of like, I feel confident, I feel fine. And yet I feel weird, like maybe I'm not used to the way I'm feeling (chuckling). I don't know what the fuck it was. But everything was right on, everything sounded right, everything... I don't know. [0:31:01] Maybe that's why, I guess. Maybe I was anxious because I wasn't anxious or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: What...? Can you say more about what it was feeling like just before you came in here, [because you were wandering around] (ph)?

CLIENT: What I felt...?

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're thinking about this feeling that it's neither extreme...

CLIENT: It felt nice. I mean, just the weather's nice. I was just... and I was just aware of the fact that I was (pause) fine. That was basically... I was like, it's a beautiful day. I'm fine. I can't think of anything that's really... I'm not really depressed, whatever. But I also don't feel amazing, you know what I mean? Or I pick something like, yeah, I do feel really lonely. But somehow it's not... (Pause) It's just there. [0:31:57] I'm not... it's not affecting me in some... (Pause) It's not stopping me from also feeling pretty good. You know what I mean? So yeah, I was just kind of like... (Pause)

THERAPIST: And I wonder, I guess, how that then... so then you come in here. Does that also throw you off here, [what do we talk about then] (ph)?

CLIENT: I get a little more anxious here, yeah, because I...

THERAPIST: Because I can imagine that, if you're feeling depressed, you know what to talk about.

CLIENT: Right, yeah, I do... not anxious, but yeah, I do feel more... a little more jittery or like I'm not sure, yeah.

THERAPIST: Or like, almost what else is there then (ph)? What's going to be there if it's not some extreme this or that or clinically significant something? Who are you?

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah. Am I going to be repeating myself or...? I don't know, yeah. Not repeating, but you know what I mean? Just picking themes. [0:32:55] Like, I'm lonely or what... or am I just going to be talking about how to grow the business or...? You know what I mean? I... yeah, I don't know... yeah. (Pause) But that's maybe exactly it in a way. Those themes lead to deeper (pause) feelings, actual... (Pause)

THERAPIST: In a way, Artuk, one of the things you're saying is there's something then you get to start to know about what comes up inside of you isn't some extreme problem going on that's very easy to identify and talk about... is not trusting yourself, not trusting that what will come up will come up, even if it's a surface thing that is the first thing that occurs to you, that it comes up for a reason. [0:34:16]It connects to other things, and nothing comes out of nowhere, and everything has a meaning. There's not... you're not trusting of... just trusting of your mind, so you get to relax and just...

CLIENT: I think it's partly that, yeah. But it's partly... it might be more that I just... when you're so used to extremes, it's almost like I don't even know what I'm thinking about, in a way.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I... yeah, I guess I feel lonely. But yeah, I don't know. You know what I mean? So that's why I'm saying maybe that is... for at least maybe it is good to be like, yeah. I'm not sure if I feel that lonely right now, but let's talk about loneliness, you know what I mean? [0:34:57] Because then that does lead to... (Pause) And I think that's kind of the whole point now of coming here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's not about, today I feel like shit, or yesterday someone looked at me funny or whatever the fuck, or I feel amazing. They're not these extreme things that have to be worked out or whatever. They're just... now it's a much more... (Pause) I don't know, it's a much more nuanced kind of thing.

THERAPIST: Now we really get to know you...

CLIENT: Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: Which is really different than knowing your problems.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. (Pause)

THERAPIST: But I think it's partly what you're saying. You're still getting used to the problems? [0:35:58] What's going to be there?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, it's all been either problems or inflated kind of euphoric kind of stuff, you know what I mean? So... but yeah, mostly problems. So... or...

THERAPIST: I'm even including that in problem, as something that's not as grounded in reality trying to [sort out] (ph) who you really are.

CLIENT: Yeah, right, it's not grounded. Yeah, it's not stable.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If nothing else I've just been used to a really high state of anxiety all the time, good or bad. Now it's like, yeah. Last week, the last few weeks... now I feel... I think now that I did this I feel... whatever anxiety I feel now, it's anchored to something. It's like, well, yeah, no shit. I mean, I just signed a lease. So now it's about work and that kind of... whereas before last week, it felt abstract and just a more existential anxiety of, I'm doing... what am I doing? [0:36:58] I think it's when you anchor things into either a lease or whatever, a job or whatever it is, then you can feel anxious. But there's comfort in the fact that there's a concrete thing that you're thinking about. What was my point? Oh, but yeah. But in general yeah, I just... I don't feel that same level of nonstop anxiety at all. So yeah, it's just kind of... (Pause) It's like when the ocean is super stormy and fucked up and that's just what you're used to. And then suddenly, if it's calm and there's beautiful sunlight and... you're like, holy shit. Look at all the stuff in the water, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: Ooh, that's a good one. I'm going to write that down. Suddenly you're like, there's a whole world in the water. [0:37:58] (Chuckling) Forget about what's going on up here. So that's...

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's so different than trying to survive the storm. It's so different.

CLIENT: Exactly, yeah. Survive, or thinking that, well, this is just it. This is just the weather. It's not a storm, it's just... so... (Pause) [0:39:00] It's a perfect metaphor. That's the one. It's even better than the coma one, because then it's like, not only is there a world under the water. But, even though it's beautiful, then you're kind of scared that you might fall in. (Laughing) You know what I mean? You're like, shit, I don't know if I'm that good of a swimmer or... (Pause) Or what if some of the stuff down there... certain things look beautiful but they're really not? Or what...? (Pause) Or some of them look awful, but they're not. They're just all different creatures. They're just all different things. [0:39:56] (Pause)

THERAPIST: I think it's a metaphor for all the fears about the couch, too. What comes out there, what's underneath if you go into the deeper layers? What will I like? What will I not like? (Pause) Are you afraid you'll find...? (inaudible at 0:40:38) (Pause) [0:41:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's weird. Sometimes I sit here, and there's nothing that really comes up. It's strange. Or maybe there are. [0:41:55] But I can't... what's the word? I can't... my mind doesn't latch onto anything. I'm just kind of, I don't know, just (chuckling)... it's weird. It's so strange. And it's emotionally neutral or something. (Pause)

THERAPIST: It's funny, because I was just having a fantasy of helping you into the water but giving you a life preserver so I could see you just float around for a while (chuckling).

CLIENT: Yeah, that's awesome.

THERAPIST: Just know you're not going to drown.

CLIENT: Those things they give kids on their arms...

THERAPIST: You can look around, floaties, yeah (laughing)...

CLIENT: Yep, that's awesome.

THERAPIST: You'd be safe. Wait until you start...

CLIENT: My little goggles.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you could start that way (chuckling), what you can see from the top.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: I'm a scuba diver, so I know what it's like.

CLIENT: Who is?

THERAPIST: (Laughing) I am.

CLIENT: Are you serious?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's quite the metaphor for going out into the ocean, yeah.

CLIENT: Wow, no kidding. [0:42:59] It's funny because I wonder if subconsciously... because that's one thing I've... I love watching documentaries and stuff. But yeah, something feels really claustrophobic to me about that.

THERAPIST: Going that deep, yeah.

CLIENT: That deep, and the pressure that builds, and... I don't know. There's something about that that's very claustrophobic. But now I wonder if subconsciously it's also about... just about what I was saying, yeah, what we were talking about.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: That's funny, you're a scuba... you're like a little Jacques Cousteau. That's awesome.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Yeah, on the side.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: On the side, not all the time, yeah.

CLIENT: Oh, on the side, of course. That's awesome. [0:43:58] Yeah. I guess when you think about it, it's not... I mean, what's the fear really? It's... you have your oxygen tank, you're down there with the critters, and... I don't know, but...

THERAPIST: Well, it is such a metaphor. I mean, people have (crosstalk) terror of that...

CLIENT: Yeah, I think that... yeah.

THERAPIST: What it means to be (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, for other people it's being confined in a small space or whatever, but yeah. For me it's those two extremes, either being really high up or being way below. I mean, I can go to the top of a building? But I don't really want to go to the edge or... I get freaked out if people go too close to... I don't get freaked out. But internally I start getting really nervous when people get too close to the edge. So that's interesting.

THERAPIST: So floaties and a mask sounds good (chuckling).

CLIENT: Yeah, that's awesome. [0:44:56]

THERAPIST: I can leave you some floaties on the couch (laughing).

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. I'll just go to the store and get those flippers and stuff. Get the ones that have dinosaurs on them and stuff.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) (Pause) It's actually not that different unless you want it to be, when you go there in your mind, too. Just as getting in the water...

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: With floaties is not that different than standing on the side of the shore (chuckling).

CLIENT: Oh, you mean...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, no, I... yeah, I know. That's one of those things where intellectually I know that... what's the big difference? But...

THERAPIST: But emotionally I think it feels like (inaudible at 0:45:40).

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it's emotional. It's... I know that I'd feel really self-conscious.

THERAPIST: Of?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Of?

CLIENT: Just that I'm one of those dudes that lays on the... it would take me a while to, ah, now I'm one of those... not that that's a bad thing (chuckling). [0:46:07] But because I've had so much skepticism over the years. I don't know. Or things are such a clich� sometimes. But... (Pause) Yeah, it's just all these little things. I mean, a lot of it's just superficial. All of it I think is just superficial for the most part. But...

THERAPIST: See, I don't know. It doesn't sound superficial.

CLIENT: That's... no, I mean my excuses are superficial.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I think ultimately it's just... I don't know what I would say, or how's it going to feel, or... (Pause) Or what if it somehow changes our dynamic or something? I don't know why it would but...

THERAPIST: In some way you're afraid of? Is there something you're afraid would happen?

CLIENT: This is... yeah, it's like, I'm afraid if it feels right, don't fuck with it, you know what I mean? [0:46:59] It took so long to get to this point, I just kind of feel like, oh, this is nice. So... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, you can stand on the side of a boat for the rest of your life looking in and never taking off because it feels perfectly fine on the side of the boat (chuckling).

CLIENT: I know, right (chuckling). Exactly, yep.

THERAPIST: And then you never get to see.

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: It's actually beautiful. (Pause) But all the fears of what if it isn't and (crosstalk)...

CLIENT: Yeah, but I guess now that I'm thinking about it it is... it's extreme. For example I just now... for some reason I just now thought, what if I was on the couch one day? What is that...? It's not like I have to come in and be on the couch every day. [0:47:56] I mean, I could come and be like, you know what? I don't feel like it today. I just want to sit. Let's...

THERAPIST: Totally.

CLIENT: It's weird. I hadn't really thought of that, you know what I mean? I think of these...

THERAPIST: [As though it's some permanent thing] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, I think of these things as so... something. I don't know what I think of it as, but yeah. Just like diving. I mean, you dive, and then you come back up.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: You don't... maybe you don't want to dive tomorrow, whatever it is. I mean...

THERAPIST: Or you start with snorkeling.

CLIENT: (Laughing) You start with snorkeling.

THERAPIST: That's what you do for a few years (laughing). And then you get more interested in what's even beneath where you can see on top.

CLIENT: Yeah. You just look at the top tropical fish for a while. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well...

CLIENT: All right, thank you.

THERAPIST: See you Wednesday.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Okay, you, too.

CLIENT: See you next week.

END TRANSCRIPT