TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: What's up? I had to settle for Levi's (ph) today. [It's good] (ph). I got a lot done this morning. So, yeah, last night, I stayed over at Uma's hotel last night. It was good. It was a little (pause) there was a brief moment where I could tell, like, she really wanted to get jiggy with it, but I, yeah, I just I don't know, man. I wasn't I just wanted (laughter) to go to sleep, kind of. And I felt nice, to be with her, but I just didn't, you know. I don't know. But she wasn't I mean, we didn't even it wasn't weird or anything. I just felt a little like, "Ah," because I'm so not like that usually. I felt bad kind of.

But it was fine, you know. Of course, I slept pretty well, but I still have crazy dreams that now I can't remember, but woke up tired. I think I'm not just like, I'm not negating any of the stuff. I really do think though that I should have this sleep apnea thing looked at. I just wonder if sometimes there's just, you know. I just wake up really tired, you know. And, you know, I know it's not, like, awful. They were like it's kind of, like, mild, you know. But, I mean, I'd rather, you know. Except I wonder if that would make a difference, you know. [00:01:43]

THERAPIST: Are you waking up wet (ph) at night, that you know about?

CLIENT: Well, that I don't know.

THERAPIST: But not to the point you're [crosstalk 01:49].

CLIENT: When I did the sleep study, they said that I yeah, I was. I was, like, holding my breath or whatever happens, yeah. But they said that it was mild, so they weren't like, "You definitely need this machine," or whatever, but they were like, you know, it's there, you know. So... I don't know. I can't, you know. On the one hand, I'm sleeping better, in a way, because I'm happier, but then I do have these days where I do wake up, you know, just not feeling rested, you know. And then I do you remember, like, I've said there have been some days where I just fucking crash, like, at 5:00 or, like, you know. But I can't tell because not every day is like that, you know what I mean? So I don't it's some days I'm snoring more than others. I don't know, you know. So, I don't know. Maybe I'll try to I know there are always different kinds of mouth guards that move your jaw or whatever. I don't know. Maybe I need to invest in something like that.

THERAPIST: Are you still staying up some nights very late?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, because that's where I would start. (Laughter) If you're going to give yourself a treatment.

CLIENT: Well, but, like, last night it wasn't that late. I mean -

THERAPIST: But that might be when you finally were actually I mean, it's possible you're relaxing and finally getting some sleep means you're aware of how sleep deprived you are all the time. That can happen.

CLIENT: Oh, I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 03:17) when your body finally actually gets more sleep.

CLIENT: That's true, and I have read that people do tend to snore more when they're tired. Or, like, if you drink, you snore more. If you're exhausted, you snore more. If you eat late at night, you score you score more. You snore more.

THERAPIST: All those things have healthcare (ph) effect.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. So I don't know.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 03:39) effect.

CLIENT: I don't know. I think, yeah. (Pause) But anyway, but yeah. So it was good. I mean, I, you know. We had a fun night. It was cool. She's awesome. I don't know what to make of anything, but she's awesome, you know. The morning was nice, you know. I had a little breakfast and stuff. The thing I can't ignore though is I felt great [she left] (ph). (Laughter) I was like, "Ah, okay. I can get back to my," you know.

THERAPIST: Did you want to be hanging out with her? Like, was that -

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Is that something you wanted to do? Could you feel yourself being happy to be around her?

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean, we really, like, get along really well. I guess some of it's what I was talking to you about. The other thing is I think because we (ph) have this totally different mindset, I don't get super excited about dating someone, I've noticed. You know what I mean? Part of that scares me, because I worry that I still have not let go on some level of, like, the Samantha, Meredith. Like, that arch type? That type, you know what I mean? And, I mean, Uma's really cute. She dresses really cool. And I mean, she has the checklist. A lot of it's there. (Pause) I'm just an asshole, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just, you know.

THERAPIST: No, [I don't know] (ph).

CLIENT: Like, you know, she has freckles. I mean, she's pretty, but she's not that, like, porcelain, like, just smooth skin kind of like, that's, I mean, it's insanity. I mean, she's a pretty girl, you know. She's petite, you know. She dresses cool. She's thin, you know. I mean, you know. So I don't know if (inaudible 05:39) I haven't let go of things in the past. I don't know if some of it's that I'm just in a much healthier place, so I'm just not quick to just say, "Oh, I'm in love with," you know. But I don't know. So it's all new to me. I don't know. Like, remember that girl in San Diego? I came back and I was like, "I think I'm going to marry this girl." Remember? So, no I wasn't, you know. I mean, she was really cool. I mean, I wish I didn't end that. I wish I'd dated her a little bit more. But, you know, that whole kind of overly quick, you know, that just doesn't happen anymore. So you know what I mean? It's like I don't know what to make of that space. Like, I really like her. But I don't know. I don't want to say I could take it or leave it, because I do really like her, but I don't know. Just, I was excited to go to Brown bookstore and pick up my psychology books that I had on hold and print out my posters for the show and come here, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's funny because it doesn't it keeps sounding like you're about to say something that's more like "I could take it or leave it" that's very blas�, but it doesn't then when I say, like, "What do you feel?" you're not saying it's blas�, that you don't feel anything.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You like her.

CLIENT: I like her.

THERAPIST: [You're enjoying] (ph) her company.

CLIENT: Yeah, I just don't feel, you know it's not that thing I've come in here telling you about. That's what -

THERAPIST: But I think that's -

CLIENT: It's probably healthy.

THERAPIST: It's like you don't know what to do with that. What is it, you know, that's in between being madly in love and being totally indifferent.

CLIENT: You just like somebody. You enjoy spending time with them, you know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or even, what is it like, it's new for you to have wanting to spend time with her not then trump everything else.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: So, yes, you want to go to the Brown bookstore and read about things that are professional (inaudible 07:41), but that's existing alongside -

CLIENT: Right, right. Or that I can be with someone and it doesn't have to be some fucking passion festival, you know what I mean. But yeah, I just don't know what it's like my mind doesn't have the capacity yet to understand, like it's like, well does that mean you just like her as a friend? Or, like, what? Wow. Like, you're not that turned on. What's going on? Like, maybe you're just not that into her, you know. It's all these things, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, it's a question that you're trying to figure out. What does this mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it's a deeper thing. I don't think it's a superficial thing. I think it's deeper because there's something going on, where, you know, she's definitely, definitely not less attractive than chicks I've been hooking up with, you know what I mean? She's equally attractive probably more attractive. So there's something deeper about, like I've just gotten so used to thinking of sex a certain way. I don't know. Possibly. I don't know. Yeah, I think there's deeper things going on, you know. But here's what I'm happy out. Hung out. No anxiety whatsoever. No awkwardness whatsoever. Last night she took me to a show. I didn't really if it was up to me, I wouldn't have gone. She wanted to go. She's come all the way here, you know. And she was totally cool about it. I was like, "You know, let's go. I don't go to shows. (inaudible 09:20) Let's go to a show." It wasn't my kind of show, per se, but I had a fun time.

And on top of that, at the door, my little pill box thing with my little Ativan and Propranolol, they were seriously frisking people, which was odd. I never I mean, we weren't going to a club, dance club, whatever. But then I remember those people that died recently. And this was at Royale, which is a dance club, so maybe they're just doing that to everybody, regardless. So for the first time in my life I've been carrying this thing around since I've been 25 or 26. He's like, "What's this?" You know, I took it out, and he, like, opened it. And I'm like, you know, those are prescription. Like, they're just, like, anxiety things and that's an Advil. (Laughter) There was an Advil in there. A Tagamet heartburn thing. My two Propranolols, an aspirin, and an Ativan. Prepared.

He's like, "Do you have a prescription?" I was like, "Well, yeah. I mean, of course I have a prescription, but I don't walk around with it." So he's, like, checking that (ph). He's like, "Can you take that?" I was like, "Dude, you know you can just throw it away if you want." He's like, "I mean, is that all right?" I'm like, "Yeah, just toss it. I mean, you know, if I can't keep it, then fuck it," you know. So then Uma's like, "What? No." And she's like, "That's, like, your stuff." I'm like, "No, I'm fine." But I was it's a little thing, but not really.

THERAPIST: It's a huge thing. (Laughter)

CLIENT: Right? Boom. That was huge, yeah. I was totally fine. I was fine being in a big place with a lot of people. A lot of, like, annoying people, quite honestly, at a show that wasn't particularly good. But it was fun. Like, I was just making fun of them. I was making her laugh. I only had two beers. Then we ran into my good friend Stephen and his two friends. We went to a bar[for one more] (ph). It was totally nice, you know.

THERAPIST: You relaxed.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was fine. I was totally fine. Now, I went today and I got another pill box. (Laughter) But, just, you know, smoked (ph) my little buddy. Oh, that was the funny thing. When he opened it, I kind of almost laughed, because I don't take them, right. So they just sit there, and they almost you know what I mean? Like, they get old. And so (laughter) I was like, "Dude, just toss it, man." [00:11:55]

So that was cool. And then we went back to her hotel. I didn't have any trouble sleeping or you know, I felt tired. I was ready to sleep, you know. It felt nice to be in a nice I mean, I have a tiny bed, you know. So one of those huge hotel comfy beds, oh man, it was awesome. So...

THERAPIST: Sounds like you might have slept well.

CLIENT: I mean, overall, I did. Yeah. I mean, I [did see] (ph) crazy dreams, but (pause) one dream, I do remember. I saw, like, maybe two days. Three this week, I saw. Where in my house, in my apartment, the electricity went off, but not completely off. And then there was, like, wires or duct work or whatever. I don't know if that was subliminally or subconsciously because I had put my electric bill to pay, you know. Because remember the fucking thing got shut off. So I don't know if it was just that or whatever. But -

THERAPIST: What were you feeling in the dream? Do you remember what?

CLIENT: A panicking, a little bit.

THERAPIST: It was anxious.

CLIENT: But then I was like, "Oh, no. But there's still some light." So then I was like, but then I didn't understand why some were working and some weren't, you know. (Pause) I saw this other dream once too. I don't know if I bought it up here. Like, I don't really remember. It suddenly just popped into my mind, but it was my house, but it wasn't my house. There were, like, other people living there or something. I don't know. It was weird. It was almost like a big farmhouse, something like that. Then there were people around the house, looking at it. Or they were neighbors. And it was a whacky dream. I [still have] (ph) a lot of vivid dreams. Like, they're not particularly scary. They're just (pause) unusual. [00:13:50]

THERAPIST: I think that means you're sleeping well or -

CLIENT: I've read that, yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 13:55)

CLIENT: Yeah, I've read that, yeah. Yeah, regardless of whether it's a good dream or not. But if they're vivid dreams, then that means you're in a deep state of sleep.

THERAPIST: I mean, there are whole theories about dreaming, actually, as a barrier that protects yourself from waking up while your brain is processing what it's processing. And your capacity to dream means that you're really in a deep sleep. [That you've] (ph) -

CLIENT: You're into that REM sleep or whatever.

THERAPIST: Right. And that you're able to let go enough of the day to be able to actually really be in sleep.

CLIENT: That's cool.

(Silence)

(Yawning) I don't know. (Pause) I don't know. I just feel grateful right now. I feel like things are I'd like things to be like this for (laughter) you know what I mean? Like, even with my grandmother, things seem somehow they can't be better, possibly, but something's going on. I don't know. Maybe she's just gotten I don't know if it happens that people like that somehow on some level accept what's happening to them, even if they're not you know what I mean? She just seems lately like she's more like, you know that crazy aunt is finally here, hanging out. So, you know. It's like, you know, hanging out with I walked downstairs. I bought Cecelia down so they could, you know. They love Cecelia, and they're hanging out. And my grandmother loves Cecelia now too. I don't know what that means, why she was before, she was, like, kind of kicking her and stuff like that. But now she's anyway. [00:15:54]

But so we're sitting there. I mean, you know, they finally are getting her teeth, whatever. And my mom or her my aunt said something like, you know, "Mom, you know, did you where are your teeth? You didn't -" And she's, like, so she, like, touched her gum. She's like, "I don't know." She's like, "I don't know where my teeth. Where are they?" Like, she's such, like, a little girl now, it's almost like it's both heartbreaking, but it's kind of awesome in a way, you know what I mean? Like, she's not she's with us, you know. And she still has a sense of humor, you know. It's unbelievable. (Laughter) But yeah, so it's nice. Like, I don't know. It's, like, a good (pause) period.

THERAPIST: She's more at peace and sort of let go of the old functioning.

CLIENT: Seems to be. I mean, she was in the hospital, definitely. She was okay, but if we had left her there, it was going to be what it used you know, she was definitely going to want to get the fuck out of there. But otherwise, she seems to be a little more something. I don't know. I mean, it also could be (ph) she's just not as strong as she you know what I mean? She's literally, just in the last few months, she suddenly seems way more frail, you know. So by default, that's, I think, making her more mellow.

And my aunt seems okay. I don't know. She's a nut job, but she seems she hasn't said anything too crazy. (Pause) But, you know, again, what's great about all this is it just kind of doesn't matter (laughter) anymore (ph). I go down there and say hi to them. I want to see them. I want to, you know. But then, you know, I just leave, you know. And Cecelia's the perfect, you know. They should have all had cute little cats, you know. Because, by default, it breaks your if you're a negative person, you just can't help it, you know. She melts your heart. So [right here] (ph) in the middle of one of their conspiracy theories, you know, suddenly Cecelia just, like, lays down in front of them and, just, you know, they just lose it, you know. [00:18:22]

(Silence)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 18:47) so, so long, so much of your life, by sex as a kind of, like, a central driving force about what motivated you, what would get you out of bed, you know. Women as a way of feeling probably powerful feeling, potent (ph) feeling. Getting away from the emptiness. I think it's just a way there are other ways of feeling alive and feeling better in your own skin. Or starting to grow, you know, so that that doesn't have to be the only way, you know. Or it may even become it may start to mean something else over time.

CLIENT: I mean, even a little thing, right, like with my gum, you know. It's still kind of sore or whatever, so I can wear my retainer but it hurts, you know what I mean. And, you know, I have to change it whatever. I have to do something else about that (ph). But I just don't care, you know what I mean. I'm going to do something, you know what I mean, because I invested a lot in it and, you know, it's just a personal thing. But I don't care that right now it's not, you know what I mean? I just don't give a shit. You know, I might suffer through it and wear it at the show or something. I mean, it's just a personal thing, but it's not like an overriding like, if I don't wear it at the show. I'm not going to sing more meekly or something like that. I just don't give a fuck. So that's a big deal. That's a really big deal. [00:20:24]

Or like yesterday, Uma was so hot but, you know. In a way, what do you do? Someone's visiting (ph). I mean, you know, I wanted to take her out, and what are you going to do? It's hot, it's hot, you know. But we were in the back bay, whatever. We went into some place. She wanted to use the bathroom, and she found the photo booth thing. You know those photo booths? She's like, "Oh," and she just grabbed me and went in there. And, like, it was fun. Like, I didn't feel weird. I didn't feel like, "Oh, wait. Like, my hair let me -" I don't know. (Laughter) I don't feel attractive. And then when I saw the pictures, I was like, "Yeah, that's cool." Like, I you know what I mean? Like, I just, you know.

THERAPIST: You're comfortable with who you are.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 21:21), you know, something, like, Cecelia is a representation for these other kinds of feelings in your family that probably didn't get expressed a lot of the times (inaudible 21:31), you know, all the negativity that this, like, the kind of earlier maternal, loving, cozier, affectionate, melting-your-heart kind of feeling. That's very different than, like, you know, veering on sexuality, you know. And there's something where you're describing you with what's her name? I can't remember her name.

CLIENT: Who?

THERAPIST: Uma. In the hotel, the way you're just saying, like, you curled up next to each other.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's more about a real connection that's all it is.

THERAPIST: Affection and, like, loving feelings. Are there loving feelings? (inaudible 22:08) it actually is.

CLIENT: I mean, I don't make any qualms about it. I've told some of my friends. Like, one of my favorite things to do with Cecelia is sometimes she'll not sometimes. Every time. So she'll be, like, at the foot of the bed and I need to, like, eat her up. I can't take it anymore, you know. (Laughter) So I can literally go up to her and, like, do this and put my head on her, like a pillow. And like, you know, do this and, like, kiss her. And she just I mean, I time it, you know what I mean. (Laughter) And then she's like, "Okay," you know. "No, we're good," you know.

But that's like a it's an amazing, you know. And I think in some ways, it's the same. Like, I think for my mom, whatever, I think it's reawakening or it's getting in touch with the part of them, my mom especially, that's (pause) sweet. That's more genuine and more not concerned with whatever, you know. It's just more about just love and connection, you know. Which I had a feeling that was going to happen, because I know my mom has that. I mean, I see it in her, you know. It's just I think she's been they've all been beaten down by their own backgrounds and their circumstances, you know. And some of, like, just their own not genes, but whatever. Just their dad, you know what I mean? Like, that's just their context. (Clears throat)

CLIENT: I was thinking, when I do this master's thing, I was I found these books. By the way, that's the other thing. I was really good at not buying a lot of books from Brown bookstore. But I took pictures of the ones that I might buy. "Psychological, Developmental, Social and Methodological (ph)" you know what I mean "Aspects of Cultural Transmission." Do you know that book?

THERAPIST: (inaudible 24:32)

CLIENT: Ute Sch�npflug, University Press. It looked really fucking interesting. And I almost bought it, but I was like, I mean, you know. Right now, I'm not, you know. It's a little more academic, although I thought it was (inaudible 24:46). But, like, I was thinking that would be something I'd be really that's me, right. I mean, that's something that I think is really important. Cultural transmission trauma, you know, all these things.

THERAPIST: Is it a textbook, like, for a class? Or is it -

CLIENT: No, it's one of those, you know, like, almost you know those University -

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

CLIENT: like, type books. Kind of academic, but easy enough to read that, you know. I'm sure it's probably used in courses, but it's not so dry and heavy. But it's academic. And then Joel Kovel. "A Complete Guide to Therapy." Do you know this guy?

THERAPIST: I don't know -

CLIENT: "From Psychoanalysis to Behaviour Modification." I didn't buy it because it's kind of older.

THERAPIST: So that's an overview of all the different models, it sounds like.

CLIENT: Yeah. Howard Gardner.

THERAPIST: [I know him] (ph).

CLIENT: Is he good?

THERAPIST: Yes. He was well known particularly (inaudible 25:46).

CLIENT: "Constructing the Self," Philip Cushman. Do you know that?

THERAPIST: I know the name.

CLIENT: Yeah? It's "Cultural History of Psychotherapy," which is really interesting. Anyway. But yeah, but I didn't buy those, because I was like, "All right, I'm not," you know. I got a Jung reader. And (pause) what's that book? "Denial of Death," right? I don't know. There were just a few -

THERAPIST: (inaudible 26:13)

CLIENT: Yeah. That I wanted, and Romo Mayo? You told me about this guy. Did you? He's like a Romo Mayo, something?

THERAPIST: Rollo May?

CLIENT: Yes. Something about destiny and freedom, something like that. I don't know. They just seemed like, you know.

THERAPIST: He fits in with Fromm and that spectrum (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. And the other ones seemed I mean, I don't know. They both seemed like books I've heard of or people I've heard of that are probably pretty easy to digest and read. Not overwhelming. And then the Jung I think that's guy interesting. I think he's debunked or whatever, but seems pretty interesting, you know. Then I watched a great documentary about Freud and about whatever he was a bullshit artist or not. (Laughter) That was really interesting. It was a PBS on YouTube. It was, like, from 1990 or something.

THERAPIST: And about whether he was a bullshit artist?

CLIENT: I mean, not a bullshit artist, but basically it was saying how it was interviewing a wide range of therapists and scholars and stuff, some of whom were saying, you know, some of the over emphasis on sexual stuff. You know, some of that. (Clears throat) It was actually they even had a few people that were his patients, which is amazing. But, yeah. But I don't know. But you have to read that stuff, right? In school, you have to read Jung at least, right, even if you don't or is he a complete bullshit artist? [00:28:12]

THERAPIST: No. I mean, you'll probably find that in the cultural history there's a real split between Freudian and Jungian schools.

CLIENT: But, I mean, is there even still a Jungian school?

THERAPIST: There is, but it's very much its own -

CLIENT: It's like a cult or something.

THERAPIST: From the other school, people will experience it more like a cult, yes, but that's probably some bias too, you know what I mean, to see it that way.

CLIENT: So there's never any overlap?

THERAPIST: There's not a lot of overlap.

CLIENT: Oh (ph) shit.

THERAPIST: You have a little teeny bit of Jung, here and there. You'll cover it in Intro to Psychology (inaudible 28:47) textbook, but -

CLIENT: No kidding. So really, if you read him, you're just reading him for just culturally, he's an interest (ph).

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It's not for therapeutic anything. It's more his work on, like, learning things about culture and symbolism and things like -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. That's kind of what I figured.

THERAPIST: And dreams. They'll cover your dreams in a dreamers course.

CLIENT: So Freud is still the man?

THERAPIST: Freud and Winnicott and Melanie Klein.

CLIENT: Right, right, okay. So even if Freud's sexual stuff is a little bit wacky, in general, he's still the absolute foundation -

THERAPIST: If you read the whole body of Freud, from start to finish, there is so much more than sexual. That's the way he gets I don't know how to describe it. He took that strand and developed it the most. He wrote about narcissism. He wrote about the self. He wrote about -

CLIENT: (inaudible 29:47) melancholy.

THERAPIST: Super ego, melancholy. All these subjects, in much richer ways than boiling down to the (crosstalk 29:54).

CLIENT: So what's the one book you should read if you read him?

THERAPIST: If you read Freud?

CLIENT: Is it "Civilization and Its Discontents" or ?

THERAPIST: I don't know that you can read just one.

CLIENT: I have to get a Freud reader then, okay.

THERAPIST: I'd get a Freud reader.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. Interesting. I almost bought this thing about they had used copy of Layperson and this thing about not going to medical school if you're going to do something like that. (Pause) Interesting.

THERAPIST: "The Problem of Analysis" or something.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: "The Problem of Analysis."

CLIENT: Something like that. It was about how he argues that you don't need to go to medical school to be a therapist. But yeah, I don't know. That one book though, I mean, I don't know. It was just 20 bucks. I was like, you know, am I really going to read this right now? But maybe I can get it even cheaper on Amazon.

THERAPIST: Which one?

CLIENT: The cultural transmission one.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know. I think that's I'd be really into that. That'd be perfect for a master's thing, you know.

THERAPIST: And that's the interface of the theory and the history, the development of the theory.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or (ph) social psychology. (inaudible 31:15)

CLIENT: And also, I love this psychohistory term. I've never heard of that. That's awesome. I mean, that's what I envision my English dissertation, you know. Trauma through kind of literary history through, you know.

THERAPIST: Buy them used.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Can probably find most of these used.

CLIENT: Well, they were used.

THERAPIST: Oh, they were?

CLIENT: Oh, I would never buy this shit new. No way. But see, that's how I've gotten at this shit. I'm like, you know, I had them all and I was like, you know what? Come on. These, yeah. These, you know, the Jung, these are things I can flip through and read a chapter, you know what I mean? But that's book, that's, you know, statistics and research and footnotes. That's more, you know. It's like I'll take a picture of it. That's (ph) something I can hope maybe use in the future. In the past, I would have just bought all of them, you know. I don't do that anymore. (Clears throat)

(Silence)

THERAPIST: I wonder what it means to have this kind of conversation here.

CLIENT: It's awesome. What kind of conversation?

THERAPIST: Just talking about the field and -

CLIENT: It's awesome. Are you kidding? It's fantastic. I love it. (Pause) I mean, it's a great feeling to not be mired in daily minutia of anxiety, you know what I mean? It's, like, so liberating. Well, and even more, the pressure of, like, "Well, now I got this Jung reader. I have to understand what this guy's -" You know what I mean? I don't feel that. I'm like I don't give a fuck. I'm just interested in the guy. I just want to, you know. In my spare time, I'm just going to pick it up and just see what it's, you know. That, and also, I love that I can be so passionate about something that's going to make me a living. Like a real living, you know what I mean, that I'm in control of. That's an incredible feeling.

Like, today, Eva I got an e-mail from her. She's like (inaudible 34:03) you know, she's like, "I have your post Brown e-mail, but can you give me your Gmail because I want to put you on our there's some kind of internal referral document thing." I was like, that's fucking awesome, you know. Yeah, it just feels good to like, you know. Or that director whose son has ADHD, you know. There's a book I took a picture of about ADHD. I'm like, well, I'm not going to read it right now but, you know. "Out of the Fog," Kevin Murphy. Adult attention yeah, it feels invigorating to be like, wow, I can use my intellectual curiosity and whatever creative side to do something productive on a daily basis that has to do with earning a living and connecting with people and helping people, you know.

It's pretty fucking cool. It's, like, a thousand percent more of the peace I used to feel with teaching, you know what I mean? I felt the same thing with teaching, but then I would always hit that wall of, "What the fuck? I'm not getting paid enough. Some of these students don't care. I'm not completely free to do this my way," you know. And it also feels good to feel like, "Wow, there are all these cool people that can be helpful to me and are open to that's nice, you know. Academia's not quite like that, you know. I don't know if you've experienced, like, teaching in a you know, yeah, they're helpful, but there's this sense of, like, I wouldn't feel that comfortable going to a colleague and being like, "Hey, let's talk about teaching." There isn't. At least I've not experienced that, you know. There's a little bit more of, you know, territorial or not even territorial. Like an attitude or something in a faculty, you know.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 36:20)

CLIENT: Kind of, something like that. Or, like, that you're showing weakness if you're a little too, you know. Whereas I get the exact opposite feeling from this kind of thing. It just seems like people are very in general I don't know. Nothing's perfect, clearly, and I'm sure there's all kinds of things in (ph) psychology too. But there seems to be something where people are some more openness and communication and networking in a nice way.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 37:01) feeling grounded and connected to a community and a subject where you actually get to now really take your passion for something and -

CLIENT: Exactly. I mean, take an example, right. Let's say I went professional into literary studies, right. Well, what does that mean? That means instead of doing this kind of thing. What. I'm going to go to the conference and present a paper on, "Well, why was there no modernism in our -" Who the fuck gives a shit? I'm interested in that. But do I feel like presenting it to a bunch of dumb asses? No. but I would have to, you know what I mean? I'd have to do some conferences. I really don't care enough. I just don't. I care personally, but I don't care enough to publish it somewhere with all the right footnotes. Just do not give a shit, you know. And I kind of don't give a shit in psychology either, you know. The master's is just to it's purely vocational, you know.

THERAPIST: As opposed to writing a paper and published it on -

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. Obviously, you have to write papers, but it doesn't have that PhD, like "you are becoming a scholar."

THERAPIST: (inaudible 38:11)

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. (Clears throat) So, to me, that's one of the differences, you know. I'm not going to network at that conference. I just don't care, you know. I just don't care. I never cared about the people I met. It was like, "Oh, all right. You do German and Italian. That's interesting." I mean, if you want to have a beer and talk about it, I guess that's all right. I'm curious about those things, but I don't want to have some academic discussion about it. (Clears throat) Unless I do it my way, like that lecture I gave. Well, that was mine. That was my night. I did it my way. And it wasn't academic. I mean, it was learned, I hope, but it wasn't academic, you know. And I think that's why I did so well, you know. That's why Jason does like, you know, that's why I love Jason. He's, like, a learned man. He's, you know. He's not like this dry (pause) he's not a scholar, in some ways. He's just a man of letters. (Clears throat)

(Silence)

THERAPIST: [I have to find Eric Fromm] (ph) in life coaching.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Sometimes it sounds like you're more interested in the intrapsychic deeper layers than you know you are. You know, you've often said, "Life coaching is one thing and psychotherapy's another." Like, that went into all stuff, like this save people stuff did.

CLIENT: Oh. No, but I see a connection though. Eric Fromm totally belongs in life coaching. It's just all I was saying is -

THERAPIST: I agree, he belongs.

CLIENT: Oh, oh.

THERAPIST: In other words, the community of people though, I don't know if it will as enriched enough in what you'd get in an education there. Do you know what I mean? [00:40:20]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: As opposed to what you're reading.

CLIENT: Oh, you're saying, like, if I do this master's?

THERAPIST: Master's, right. [It'd be] (ph) very different from a certification program and life coaching might feel more less of the kind of stuff that you're actually looking for.

CLIENT: In the life coaching?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yes, I agree with you. Yeah. So the master's is, you're saying, the better ?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don't know if it is or is not.

CLIENT: No, it is. It is, it is.

THERAPIST: I'm just commenting -

CLIENT: Yeah, life coaching, these programs in life coaching are, one, to help you with your business. I mean, you're going to be a life coach. Two, they're taught by other life coach people. Three, I mean, honestly, they can probably sum this shit up in a one sheet bullet point. I mean, their basic tendons (ph) are very it's not rocket science, you know what I mean? And yeah, no, I'm much more interested in the deeper stuff. There's no question. And I believe that, you know, maybe that's, you know. That's maybe going to be my thing. Like, there isn't that in life. Life coaching seems to be this very (pause), I hate to say it, but not very learned people. Brave people maybe. Open people. Whatever people. They have lots of skills but, you know, on a deeper level. Yeah. And who knows, maybe then I am going to be like, "Oh, I guess I do kind of want to be a therapist, since I care about these things," you know what I mean. But my feeling is at least -

THERAPIST: It's a place to start?

CLIENT: It's a place to start, and that way I could be a life coach and I'm not doing anything wrong. It's also about liability, you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I could be a what (ph), we'll just call it life coaching, just like Eva did with that patient of hers. But it's really therapy, you know what I mean. But that way, I have the credential to do that and not worry about it. (Pause) I don't know. I'm just really excited. There's no way around it. [00:42:39]

THERAPIST: [There's always that room] (ph) for positive feeling.

CLIENT: Yeah, and what's really cool is there's not a lot of doubt. Nervousness.

THERAPIST: But that's what I mean, confidence.

CLIENT: (Clears throat) Yeah, right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible 42:50)

CLIENT: Yeah. It just feels really good. It feels right, in a very incredibly consistent way. (Laughter) You know. With a healthy amount of (pause), like, what's the word? Kind of like a realistic confidence and excitement. It's not like, "Hey, like, euphoria, and it's going to be this amazing business in six months, you know. I'm going to be an amazing life coach." I have the potential to do those things, but I'm sure I'm going to make mistakes, or I'm sure you know what I mean? I'm learning, you know, so...

THERAPIST: And I only think the more you get going in this and can get more education, you'll thrive.

CLIENT: Yeah, I agree.

THERAPIST: If (ph) this is what you want to do.

CLIENT: Yeah, I agree.

THERAPIST: The person I was at the end of graduate school (inaudible 43:53) is very different therapist. (Laughter)

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: But I hear that you're saying maybe this is the way that allows it to happen as an adult (inaudible 44:07) 18-year-old or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (Pause) Yeah, I mean, I think I don't know. Maybe that's the reason I feel excited. I feel like once I get going I don't think even know yet what my real potential is there, but I think it's pretty big. I can just feel it, you know what I mean. All this life experience. All this I mean, I'm just bringing so much value, I think, that just needs to be molded and put through the rigor of, you know, how you practice this field. (Coughing) Sorry. But that feels exciting, you know what I mean.

THERAPIST: [See you] (ph) tomorrow.

CLIENT: Okay. 3:10?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. See you later.

THERAPIST: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT