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BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So I was just posting something on Facebook.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I was like, “I don’t know.” I kind of hate Facebook. You know? You see things in the news or whatever that drive you crazy. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I have been doing it way, way less. I mean I didn’t do it all the time anyway. But I think I am just going to stop. It is more depressing than anything because you post it and it is completely pointless. You know? What are you trying to do by posting? Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It just it sucks.

THERAPIST: What was it this time?

CLIENT: Well this whole Syria thing, it just really bothers me. You know? And I have an uncle. For me it is personal. I have an uncle who is stuck there. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So there was just thing this Time reporter. I don’t know if you saw that.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: They allowed him to witness and, I mean, it is just like, “What the?” I just can’t take it. I can’t take it anymore. But I was very honest in my post. I was like, you know, “I am disgusted.” I loathe the fact that I put this shit on Facebook. [00:01:09]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? But this is what we have become. I don’t know what we are supposed to do. You know? We have all allowed ourselves to be part of this like pretend, corporate made world. And we just post this shit and we think that it is doing something. It is not doing anything. I don’t know. It is shameful.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But, I don’t know.

THERAPIST: You do it for a reason. There is something.

CLIENT: Well we all want to connect and that is why anybody posts these things. We want somehow there to be But I think what is shameful is we don’t realize that by posting it we are kind of doing what they want us to do in a way. It is a great way to just diffuse.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: “I am furious.” I put it on Facebook and I feel a little bit, it lets a little bit of the steam out. Do you know what I mean? So people think they are kind of connecting with each other. And well, “At least Claire will hear about it. Maybe she doesn’t know about it.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Who the fuck cares? I mean, that is not action. You know? It stops any real actionable things from happening. [00:02:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? But it is what it is. You know? This is why I don’t really try to follow the news much anymore. But, you know, it is just sometimes you can’t help it. It is there. You know? And for someone with a brain you want to know what is going on in the world, yet you don’t anymore because it is just unbearable.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I am just going to stop. You know? I think Facebook I have got to use it just as a business tool and just for music, you know, for my art or for business or whatever. And then just it is all silly.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: Because it doesn’t even matter. If people are like, “That is so right what you are saying.” Well, then what? So okay, great. So really it is just about us again. It is about me. Do you know what I mean? It is about people seeing what I put and being affected by what I put. Well so the fuck what? You know? (pause) [00:03:13]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It is like it really is a drag (ph). This must have been kind of what it was like in the dark ages. In a different way but, you know, people just, anyone who had a brain, who had an education or who was whatever, that is why they became so monastic probably. It is unbearable. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like tonight I am supposed to see this chick who I want to see but I don’t.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? Like I don’t. I am not feeling it anymore. I feel like I can’t. It is hard for me now to like, “Yeah, let’s go have a drink and make out.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean I want to do those things but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the absurd disconnect. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) (inaudible at 00:04:10) The disconnect.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: [What is getting allowed.] (ph)

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it is to the point where, yeah, you really can’t. It is hard to talk to people anymore too because so many people, even seemingly good people, have kind of been I feel like that is what the dark ages is. It is when one side has clearly won. In the dark ages it was the inquisition, the plague. Whether it was a natural thing (laughs) or, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And in this case it is just, you know, corporations of one right wing thinking, even if you think you are not thinking that way. It is just one. Do you know what I mean? You know. I mean even people who are good they are quicker to put blame on helpless people.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? Than they are on, you know. Like the other day there were people talking about I guess some chain or some fast food place raised their minimum wage to fifteen bucks. [00:05:17]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it is like, “Why is that an issue?” Do you know what I mean? Like these people, “Well, geez. Well how the hell? I mean, how is that possible? How can they pay people fifteen bucks an hour now? You know if they do that then that means that everyone is going to. All small business are going to.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like why? Do you know what I mean? Think about what you are saying for a second. That business is doing it. Why not be happy that if that business can do it and they have chosen to do it, isn’t that what the free market is?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Does the free market always have to be fucking people up the ass? Like this guy has decided he can pay people a decent wage. Or Costco. The guy pays people like 25 bucks an hour. You know? So he should not because you are worried about what that means for Do you know what I mean? It is such a weird It literally baffles me.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like, “You are not a fucking billionaire.” It is unbelievable. “So you don’t want? If your kid worked there, so they should get paid six bucks an hour?” [00:06:17]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Really? It is stunning. It is absolutely stunning. And those are good people. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They don’t mean to be You know, they are not saying people should live in misery. They just have bought into this kind of trickle down, whatever, whatever way of thinking. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And that really what they are saying is, “I am sorry, but the people that own the McDonalds are better than the people who eat at the McDonalds.” They have just won. You know? They have one and you didn’t. So, you know? And the thing is you can’t run away from it unless you are going to unplug and live on a mountain.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Europe is becoming You know? There is nowhere you can go anymore. It is a small world now and most places are even worse actually. You know? The Chinese are even worse than we are.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They are just fucking, that is how they have become as powerful as they have by paying people nothing. You know? [00:07:17]

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: It’s, yeah, I don’t know. And I have had this conversation with a few people that get it. Do you know what I mean? And that is how we all feel. It is like it is not even worth discussing any more.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Yeah, if my uncle says something about [taxes] (ph). It is just whatever, man. You know what I mean? Like there is not point.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like it is that side has won and I think people There are lots of people who don’t think that way but that is the thing. We are just completely, they have done a good job of making it so that we think, “Oh, Facebook is a community. At least we can “ It is nothing. You are not doing anything. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So it is like you just have to live each day and be grateful if you have a couple of like-minded friends and try to be a good person. That is really all. [00:08:22]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And everything else seems kind of just a waste of energy.

THERAPIST: Well I think one of the things you are saying is you are discovering more and more which of the lines of kind of fantasy bubbles that look like they are changing something -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: but really aren’t.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And so what is real is those few friends.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And the roof you need to have over your head and some income.

CLIENT: Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: Love.

CLIENT: Your own inner world.

THERAPIST: Yeah. The people who matter to you who are in your life.

CLIENT: Your sense of self. The people, yeah. And your own behavior.

THERAPIST: And maybe you want to change the world but it might not be through some of the ways that you used to look like they were going to work, like Facebook.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: That is more of a buying in.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, and that is kind of what I mean by being You have to just set an example. That is all you can do.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But that is something.

CLIENT: And that is a -

THERAPIST: That is saying, “I am not going to be on Facebook.” That is one thing you are doing.

CLIENT: That is a big deal. Yeah. [00:09:26]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No, it is a big deal. You are right. Right. You are right. Well even the life coaching -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: starting a nonprofit.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: That is why -

THERAPIST: Really affecting people.

CLIENT: Yeah, that is why even now I am upset but not the way I used to be.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I am just normal upset like everyone should be.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Fucking outraged. But, yeah, I am not eating away at myself as much.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? It is like well I am trying to do stuff in my own world.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And, you know. And also I have just See that is the thing about when you are more self-aware. I am getting better at, okay, if my uncle or something, someone has some different viewpoint -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: and it just drives me crazy. I am getting better at being like, “Well, you know what? That is all real but it is also still about me, isn’t it?” Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I want them to see it my way. And you know what? My uncle is a human being. He is not fucking Hitler. He is a sweetheart. The guy has had his context in his life and for those people that is what they see. [00:10:37]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That is what they feel. They don’t mean it in a like, “Fuck people,” kind of way.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They just mean it in the way that, “Look, we have fucking suffered nonstop and look what we did? You know? Through a lot of hell and turmoil and difficulty and failures.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: “So, you know what? Homeless kids in the Square, get off your fucking ass.” You know? That is their mentality.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And some of that I understand. But regardless and even if I didn’t understand it -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I am getting better at just going, “Listen, this is pointless.” It is still ego. You know? It is all ego stuff. It is like, you know? It is like I feel some slighted injustice. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It is like, yeah. Isn’t it nice for me to be able to feel Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There are people really suffering.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And I am worried that my uncle thinks this or thinks that. Who gives a shit? You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. That is huge.

CLIENT: What is that?

THERAPIST: That is huge? [00:11:42]

CLIENT: It is huge. Yeah. (long pause, sound of tapping)

CLIENT: Yeah, so tonight I’m like, I don’t know. She was like, “Are we on for tonight?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.”

THERAPIST: Who is this? [Some chick?] (ph)

CLIENT: She is this girl that I have She is just one of these ones almost every so often I kind of like to hang out with her. She is really pretty and it is fun to make out with her and stuff. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She is kind of fun but she is kind of a lighter person. You know, she is like a hair stylist, whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I am in that mood where I either want to stay home -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: or I just want to hang out with my friend Eric and just talk -

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (laughs)

CLIENT: have a beer. I don’t know. I might just tell her, “Just come meet me at this bar.” Do you know what I mean? [00:12:55]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Merge the worlds a little bit if she wants to. If she doesn’t then I don’t know. But I also feel bad because I do tend to blow, you know this roster of girls, I blow them off all the time.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I will make a plan and then I will be like, “Nah.” You know? (laughs) Because I don’t When it comes down to it I will be like, “Yeah, I guess I don’t really feel like it.” So I feel kind of bad. You know?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: But -

THERAPIST: What if you didn’t have to do that anymore?

CLIENT: Not to do?

THERAPIST: Not to make plans.

CLIENT: I don’t do it much anymore.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But, you know, at the end of the day, right? You know, we have talked about this. Then you are like, “Well, I want some contact.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean I do have a good time with her. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It is that balance of, yeah, I really don’t do it much anymore. But then it gets to the point where I feel it would really be nice to -

THERAPIST: And what is that point. You say, “It gets to that point.”

CLIENT: I mean either, you know, you just want either the physical contact or you just feel like, “Wait, am I getting too much stuck in my own head “

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: “ and this routine.” Do you know what I mean? And I am forgetting to just be out sometimes and just socialize. Do you know what I mean? [00:14:03]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don’t know. Because I have already got that down. I mean I stay in all the time. I am doing my own thing. So then I am worried and I’m like Nah, I don’t worry. But I just feel like, well, I mean, is it really a big deal to have a few drinks with someone for a couple of hours?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean do I keep blowing people off? I don’t know. But then I feel like, “Well, no, that is the point.” If you are blowing them off that means you really don’t want to.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So why are you, you know?

THERAPIST: And also the difference between you being a hermit and having some time you are out socializing, that is one thing. And I think it is different than having a roster of girls where occasionally you hook up with them.

CLIENT: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like that is (cross talking at 00:14:48).

CLIENT: Right, like I just said, I would rather hang out with me friend. It is not like I don’t want to socialize.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I have been socializing.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: But it has been my socializing. Going for a walk with a buddy.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or, you know, hanging out with George (ph) or, you know, whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that doesn’t sound like being antisocial.

CLIENT: No, no it is not.

THERAPIST: You are wanting to be out there sometimes.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And see friends.

CLIENT: It is being more aware and just protective of, yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe appropriately so.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, no, it is totally appropriate.

THERAPIST: Not wanting to (inaudible at 00:15:12). Yeah.

CLIENT: No, that is why, yeah, with her I think I might be like, “Look, I might be out later. You know, whatever, can you meet me?” You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because, yeah, quite frankly, what am I doing? I mean basically it is a date, right?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And there is no, we’re not going to, nothing is going to happen.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Other than maybe hooking up or whatever, you know, make out or whatever. But what is it really? What is that? You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: For example, it is funny it is like the exact opposite of that. Last night my friends These douche bags opened this beat hotel bar over here? Did you see that? Where the tannery used to be? The old tannery?

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. I haven’t been over to the square to see it.

CLIENT: It is nice. You know, if you go with your husband. It is like, do you know the place in the south end?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It is the same douche bags that opened a place here.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, it is fancy. It is very nice. You know, very nice.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So they had my friend’s jazz band do the opening.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I was like, “I will go and support my friend,” you know, whatever. And, you know, it is that crowd. I can’t explain it. They are like these slightly older dudes who have money but they are trying to be kind of artsy or cool or whatever. [00:16:35]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it is a different It is a certain crowd in Darien that I kind of Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: It is like there is a scene. It is definitely like a south end thing. You know? Because that is where I see it. So they were there, whatever. So I was watching the football game and having a beer and it was very nice actually. Then when I was watching my friend’s band there was a chick eating by herself.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it was kind of cool. I talked to her.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: No big deal at all. Because I kind of told myself, “I am going to talk to this girl.”

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It has been a long time since I have done that. Totally cool. Introductions. Whatever, whatever. Didn’t ask for her number. Didn’t want to hook up with her.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I just decided that I wasn’t I think I could have. I am pretty sure.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: Or regardless, whether I could have or I couldn’t have. I could have tried. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And I just didn’t. And as a matter of fact when I realized she was finishing up You know, I didn’t offer to buy her a drink.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Nothing like that. And then I just got up and I just kind of moved somewhere else.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I was like, “You know what? I am not going to sit here.” Like I did what I was going to do and I am not going to let her pay her bill and that awkward, “Well, it was nice.” You know? I just went to the bathroom, whatever. Then I came out and I sat somewhere else and grabbed a beer and walked around the bar. You know. [00:17:57]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So in a way that was what, like what you are saying about, “Well you don’t to have to.” You know, it is nice to talk to somebody, whatever. She was very nice. But who cares. You know?

THERAPIST: I am struck by you even saying What would be awkward about her paying the bill? Do you mean that somehow there was expectation that you should have paid it? What do you mean?

CLIENT: Oh no, no, no. I just mean that when you meet someone in a bar it is just such a cliché. Like, “Oh, do we exchange numbers now?” Or, “Does she want me to ask her out.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was like, “You know what. That was really nice. Let’s just end it there.” Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: That is all. I am sure it would have been totally fine.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: I am sure all she was going to say was, “It was really cool meeting you. Maybe I will see you around.”

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: Fine. But, you know, it was just nicer to be like, “Oh.” You know?

THERAPIST: In some ways you then make sure that doesn’t happen. Anything else doesn’t happen.

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

THERAPIST: She doesn’t give you her number or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Who knows? I don’t know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because she made the point of telling me that, you know, she doesn’t live around here. And she has to She was like, “I don’t know that many people around here. I live near Newfoundland,” and stuff. [00:19:12]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So I don’t know if she was trying to tell me something or not. But I was like, you know what? Let her just She was here by herself. She was reading a book, eating her dinner. It was a nice chat but I mean it was almost like I really wanted her to know that I wasn’t trying to pick her up.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don’t know. That just felt good to me. And I was like, “Well, I have got to go to the bathroom anyway.”

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don’t need to go all the way there and come all the way back just to sit here. I mean, it is a huge place. So -

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Yeah. So that felt good. And then it also felt good, you know, like they have a hostess. She is the hostess from the bar. I have seen her at there actually. I mean she is just ridiculous. This girl is just stunning.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: She’s that Samantha kind of and she kind of has that vibe. And that made me think of Samantha. It made me think, “See that’s This is the thing.” Like this is that kind of crowd.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: At least the girls were that. You know, because they are kind of artsy, whatever. But really they also like the fact that these dudes have money. Do you know what I mean? [00:20:21]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It is like this combo. You know? So I was like, you know, on the one hand I can’t help it. I am just attracted to what I am attracted to. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But on the other hand, I was able to just stop myself and be like, “You now what? I don’t think I would want to be with that girl.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Let’s say we started dating tomorrow. That means I have to hang out with her and these douche bags. This is her world. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm. Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I was able to, you know like in the past I would see someone like that and I would be like, “Oh.” I would just get dark and I would think of Samantha or this or that.

THERAPIST: You only think of her rejecting you instead of thinking, “Oh, I don’t actually want to be with her.”

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Sure.

THERAPIST: Which I wondered if that was even a piece of the woman you were talking to at the bar too. As she says -

CLIENT: No, the piece of the woman at the bar was just being honest and rejecting her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, she was -

THERAPIST: That is my point.

CLIENT: Oh, oh, oh.

THERAPIST: You had the freedom to say I mean, even okay she lives in Newfoundland. But, you know, had she said, “I live right around the corner, and “

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: No, I still wouldn’t have. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: No. There was just, you know, she was nice and she was attractive. [00:21:25]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I knew already that this would just be a hook up. I don’t want to date this person. I can tell already.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, you know.

THERAPIST: And that is not what you are wanting as much.

CLIENT: Yeah. Then I would be here a month later and she would be the girl from tonight.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It is just the same person over and over in different form. Over and over again.

THERAPIST: To get added to the roster.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Hm. And even for you to find that with someone who meets the physical checklist -

CLIENT: Exactly. It doesn’t matter.

THERAPIST: you still feel like, “But I don’t “ You know, “Do I see a future “

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: “ where I am happy with this person?”

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: Other parts of you from you want in a life with a person become more important and start to feel important at least too.

CLIENT: Right. Right. [00:22:17]

(very long pause) (tapping sounds) [00:23:41]

CLIENT: I just realized I have to pay the rent on my office. (laughs) Today is the 13th right?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it is due the 15th.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Wow. Man, these last few weeks have just flown by. Jesus.

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) What were you thinking about that got you there?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know why I thought of that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Just suddenly I think I just remembered that it is the 13th. Friday the 13th.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And I was like, “Holy shit.”

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause)

CLIENT: Yesterday before I went to see those guys, I went like at 9:30 or whatever, I just walked to the coffee shop like at seven (laughs) and I just sat there reading my life coaching thing. And I was like, “Wow, this is weird.” You know, just sitting there reading, you know, about marketing and this and that. [00:24:59]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know. Whatever. Networking and all these things. (tapping sounds)

THERAPIST: And what is weird?

CLIENT: Just that it was so different. You know, I didn’t feel It just felt good. Like I didn’t And I wasn’t reading it like, “Well, I should read this whole chapter now.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I was just flipping through, I was skipping pages, I was, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And then when I felt like I didn’t want to read it anymore I just stopped. (laughs) And I’m, “What the fuck?” It is like, you know, that is unusual. You know? There was no kind of pressure. Or I wasn’t reading and going, “Oh fuck. How am I going to do all this?”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or, you know, “Can I handle this?” Or, you know. I was reading it because I want to do well. Do you know what I mean. Like it is more about That was actually a good feeling. Some of the things they recommend in there I am already doing.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That’s how (inaudible at 00:25:55). For example, they were like, you know. You know, “Instead of thinking, ‘How am I going to do all this marketing?’ and, ‘I have got to network with people and talk to them.’ That, you know, if you remember and if you truly love what you are doing “

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: “ and you come at it that way, then that is really not a big deal.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, you do it with verve. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And that is how I feel. Do you know what I mean? I am like, “Yeah,” Yeah, of course, I don’t necessarily want to network. But who cares. I mean what is networking? It is just chitchat and give a card.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know. Or like, you know, “Oh shit. I don’t have any clients. That this means I am a failure. I am not good at this. I am a failure,” bah bah bah. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: When businesses take a long time to get going. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And if that is how you think then you are already starting.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

CLIENT: So it is like I feel like I generally have the kind of attitude and whatever that they outline in the book. So that was cool. [00:27:11]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or they are like, “Make sure you have a (laughs) nice tidy office.” You know? (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: It is like, “Yeah, no shit.” (pause) It is like I can read books like that now and not feel like I am one of the numbskulls.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: The fact is that a lot of people reading that book are idiots.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Not idiots, per se, but it is amateur hour. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And in the past I would feel like, “Oh, geez. What are these people? They must really know?”

THERAPIST: Inferior.

CLIENT: Yeah. I would automatically come to those things like, “Oh, you expect me to learn all these things. I don’t know what to “ You know? And then you start realizing, “Wait a second. Yeah, maybe I am not that person with that experience but I have my own “

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Basically, once you get to know yourself better you realize how many really not that talented, not that smart people are doing all kinds of successful things. [00:28:22]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean you just start really seeing around you.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like they are just doing it because they are doing it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? They have put their minds to it. They haven’t given up and they have just done it. And so now we believe that they Do you know what I mean? It is just they are projecting it and so that is what they get back. That is how things work.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

(very long pause) [00:30:14]

THERAPIST: There is so much more history in your Mom and your family. The idealization of the other.

CLIENT: Yeah. Big time.

THERAPIST: And, “We are the devalued -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: outsider.” And they know what they are talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They have all the goods. They are smarter.

CLIENT: I will give you an example that just happened I mean it is just so funny it is like heartbreaking it is so ridiculous. So my aunt is there, my Mom is there, my grandmother is there. And I brought Cecelia down. Right?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So they really love Cecelia, whatever. And, you know, they all love that Cecelia looks so like elegant and so like noble.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And she does. Yeah, that is fine. You know?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: But immediately when my aunt was like, “She is so dainty.” And she is. She is fucking ridiculous. And my Mom is like, “Yeah. It is like she is noble.” You know? She is like, “That makes sense. You know, our family comes from nobility.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So then they proceed to have this drawn out thing about how my great grandfather this, was the mayor of the village or whatever. And then my other great grandfather was this. Their great grandfather was [00:31:31]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It was just like, “Who are you saying this for,” kind of. I mean, you know? That was one. And then my aunt was like, “Yeah, but I mean it is sad because what does that mean now? We are not like that now.” Or she said something like that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: In other words, like no one knows that about us so And I was like, in my mind I was like, “What the fuck are these people talking about?” (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It is just absurd. It is just so tragic, comic. Do you know what I mean? It is like, “What the fuck?”

THERAPIST: It is as though these are the only ways one can feel of worth.

CLIENT: Yeah. And also what if Cecelia were just a cat from a shelter?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She can’t be adorable? You know, my Mom is big on, you know, she is like, “I told Arto (ph) I don’t like cats. I like white cats.” You know? I mean, if people are kind of spooked by cats, I guess I can understand if it is like totally a black cat or something.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But really. I mean -

THERAPIST: There are all different kinds of cats between black and white.

CLIENT: There are all different kinds. Exactly. I mean, I couldn’t have gotten a cat from a shelter that would have been cute and whatever. You know? I mean I love, yeah, Cecelia is special. [00:32:39]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But in other words, they still project -

THERAPIST: Right. She is noble, she is dainty. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah, onto a frickin’ critter. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Onto a cat. (pause) I don’t know. I mean and, yes, people do do that. Right? I mean, the lion is the king of the jungle and you know. Obviously, I mean, we do. Certain things about the aesthetic quality -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: of nature. Right? The resonate with us.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: That was a very articulate sentence. But not in a way where you are projecting your own (laughs) Yes, Cecelia is fucking gorgeous. But that has nothing to do with my own feelings about anything about that. It is just my connection to my cat. Do you know what I mean? But I can play with your cat or someone else’s cat and be like, “What an awesome critter.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: She is getting -

CLIENT: And not that they don’t do that, by the way. They would. If I had some grey cat -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: my Mom is still going to love that cat. [00:33:55]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean, my Mom just likes animals. You know? But I am just saying but she will also, if the opportunity arises, you know, if it is a white cat. You know? Then it will illicit these projections.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? She even says things like, you know, “Her eyes are so blue. But why aren’t they “ Like she will ask me, “Why do her eyes look dark today?” “It is night time.” And, you know, “It is a lamp.” What you want her eyes to have lasers in them. Do you know what I mean? It is like, “Just make sure they are blue. Are they still blue?” You know? Because that is the better eye color.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See? It is cringe worthy. It is fucking cringe worthy, man. You know? But see what goes around kind of comes around, right?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because all my life I would, they would inadvertently or advertently, I don’t know, I would feel like shit because my cousin has blue eyes and he is so handsome. [00:34:59]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, my aunt’s son, whatever. And now, my Mom and I have a gazillion times of a better relationship. You know, they are basically estranged. My aunt and her son and they don’t get along. So what happened? You know? I thought blue eyed (laughs) people are -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know? In her own words that, you know, attractive people are just better people. You know? So it is sad that they -

THERAPIST: Then you have to turn to that for proof almost.

CLIENT: What’s that?

THERAPIST: It is sad that you have to turn to that for proof.

CLIENT: Well, no, I think it is sadder that they have to realize their own idiocies.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because they do get it. They have definitely There are changes. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But it is just kind of pathetic.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because it is way too late to do anything with those changes, really. You know? And for me, because I have worked on myself, I don’t have to take that and It is not like some vindictive -

THERAPIST: Yeah. Oh yeah. Of course. [00:36:05]

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? I just find it It is just like when my Dad died. Right? When my Dad died suddenly the family got even tighter. Suddenly it was like they were so devastated and they loved him so. And that is great. But, you know, it would be kind of nice if when people were around -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: you could not be petty and weird and, you know. So it’s that. Or my aunt or all these people. You know? Once they were dead suddenly -

THERAPIST: It is too little, too late.

CLIENT: Yeah. It is like it is a little pathetic that way. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) And it is still there. They are doing it to Cecelia. You know?

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: I mean she in some ways has the privilege of being, not that she notices, but she is this exquisite creature in a way, unusually so.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But she still gets criticized. You know? There is still a worry about -

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: “Maybe her eyes won’t be blue enough.” Or, “Let’s make sure she is not losing her perfection.” [00:37:09]

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: It is a fantasy.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She is just a cat.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: You know?

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. (pause) And, you know, it is very mixed because at the same time, especially my Mom, I can see that she really, she loves her -

THERAPIST: There is love too.

CLIENT: What is that?

THERAPIST: There is love too.

CLIENT: Oh, like big time. I mean she is like, you know, with her hip and she is like picking her up and cradling her.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: My Mom never does She likes animals but that extent I have never seen anything like that. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So it is real. You know? When she meows, you know, she’s like, “It is like she is talking to us. Nature is so amazing. What a beautiful thing.”

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like she knows that we love her,” and ruh ruh ruh.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: It is sweet. You know? But at the same time (laughs) she has this weird You know? Because I see her with other animals that people have and she doesn’t project that. I mean, she just likes critters. [00:38:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But, yeah, it is like if she has the opportunity it just gets triggered. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. But it also sounds like animals then become safer vehicles for expressing this kind of feeling.

CLIENT: Yes. Right. Right.

THERAPIST: It is not coming out towards people as much.

CLIENT: Right. Right. And the same with You mean the love?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or that kind of just being madly, madly in love and affectionate.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And in awe -

CLIENT: Right, Right.

THERAPIST: of a person.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean animals sometimes can be places where it is safe to let those feelings actually be -

CLIENT: I mean, that is what I feel? Right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That is why I like having her. It is, like I said, it melts your heart. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: The guards you have up and the jaded things and the whatever, this and that. This morning, you know, I woke up and there she was again. She is spooning with me, whatever. [00:39:24]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Then she saw that I woke up so she just kind of turned over and just put her paw right on my arm and just kind of looked at me for like ten minutes.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: You know, while I was kind of like still kind of sleeping. And I didn’t want to move because I was like, “This is ridiculous.” I mean this is just magical. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I mean it is crazy. She was like, “Hey.” You know?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Unbelievable. So, yeah, I mean I think it does that. I mean I think it does that though for people who are even better at, maybe they are more open with people or whatever. But even then there is something. You just can’t get that level of purity and that level of innocence and that Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: They are critters. You know? You can be the most open person who connects with people but, you know, you are going to have your moments where people either disappoint you or there is a misunderstanding or whatever it is. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, the exception though, I think, is parent to a child and a child to a parent.

CLIENT: That is different. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:40]

THERAPIST: And I think when you haven’t I mean you didn’t used to love animals in this way. Do you remember? (laughs)

CLIENT: Uh, yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Just sort of disturbed and turned off by a cat, like in your hand.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So when you haven’t had that feeling of having received that from your own parent -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: or having your love being received.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But just loved with that love that is coming. You know?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It is appreciated, it is seen, it is honored.

CLIENT: Right, right. It is not complicated by nonsense.

THERAPIST: No. Never. Right. But it is just straightforward and innocent -

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: and pure.

CLIENT: Yup. I mean the only time I felt that was from my grandmother.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean? But even that, there were periods where that got complicated when there were some family tiffs or whatever. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But those were, in a whole span of her being my grandmother, those were completely minor. [00:41:45]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean she has been nothing Because even then it wasn’t about me. Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: My grandmother never, ever. She is so, you know. My Dad and my grandmother. But grandmothers, of course I mean, as much as I was close with my Dad, grandparents are different.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, if you have a grandparent that gives you that just unconditional kind of love. You know, it is pretty special.

THERAPIST: Yeah, what do you remember from her? When you say, “The only place I felt that was with her.”

CLIENT: Just unconditional love. Like just lots of affection and a very kind of energetic (ph), you know, she was a younger grandmother.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So just a lot of like, yeah, vibrant, optimistic. Do you know what I mean? Like really no negativity. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, protective. You know how grandparents can be. Like, “Don’t yell at him.” Or, “Don’t,” you know, bah bah bah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, playful. You know, all that stuff. She just never says anything that is like, you know, “Clean your room.” She just doesn’t do it. Everything is about, “Come sit with me. Let’s go have coffee.” You know. [00:43:02]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don’t know. “Are you going to school?” I mean it is just very light and fun and just loving. You know?

THERAPIST: And grandparents don’t You know, it is always the privilege of not having to say, “Clean your room.” Like she gets to be the one.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: But I think the point is that you didn’t have both from your parents.

CLIENT: Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: “Come sit with me.”

CLIENT: Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: “Come read a story.”

CLIENT: Right. Exactly. Well my Mom would do, and does do stuff like that. But those kinds of parents don’t get that you can’t on the one hand annoy the shit out of your kids or whatever. Kind of say idiotic things but then the next minute, “Come talk with me.” You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I am not going to because I know the minute -

THERAPIST: You have alienated them.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I know the minute I open my mouth I am sure you are going to say something critical.

THERAPIST: “You should “ (ph)

CLIENT: Or, yeah. And then that is just a cycle. [00:44:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because then she gets kind of, “Oh, you never sit with me.” You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It just creates its own, you know, pattern. Luckily that is way better now though.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it is way, way. I mean, you know. To my fucking credit.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But like now it has gotten to the point where it feels good. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like I am glad I am around for my -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, because I am also taking care of myself so I don’t need to sit there for hours or, you know.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Once you draw boundaries, you know, it changes things a lot.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And also once you project Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think I am just projecting something very different now and people respond to that.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, so.

THERAPIST: It is a lot of work you have done. It has affected her.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: (laughs) So a couple of quick scheduling things.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: October 11th, I want to let you know, I am going to be out. It is the Friday before Columbus Day weekend. [00:45:20]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And I will be out that afternoon so we won’t be back.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I also wanted to check in because I have some scheduling changes happening because of the Fall.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you have any room on Thursday and/or Friday to meet slightly earlier. Twelve o’clock on Thursday instead of 12:50? Is that doable? I know later has been better for you.

CLIENT: That is fine. I mean, that is still later. So, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And 2:20 instead of 3:10. It is just the session before.

CLIENT: Yeah. That is fine.

THERAPIST: Okay. It doesn’t have to be next week if you need a heads up or warning with your schedule.

CLIENT: Do you want it to be next week?

THERAPIST: Either way it is fine.

CLIENT: See for me, I don’t care. Oh wait, you know what? Next week actually I also have to double check when I am going to go to this wedding on Block Island.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because if I go I think I am definitely going to miss Friday next week, I think.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mean I will definitely call and let you know, but I might also miss Thursday if I decide to just go earlier.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But if not then Thursday at twelve is fine for me.

THERAPIST: Okay. Do you want to make the change then and you will just let me know if you won’t be here?

CLIENT: Yes. Exactly.

THERAPIST: It is not that the later time was going to better given your plans.

CLIENT: No, no it doesn’t matter.

THERAPIST: Okay. So let’s do that then if that works for you. [00:46:40]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Twelve o’clock on the 19th. Just make sure you let me know more than two days before.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, I will call you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: And then 2:20 Friday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you want me to write it down? The change?

CLIENT: No. I will remember because I will see you Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Thanks, Claire.

THERAPIST: Bye.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: You too.

CLIENT: Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT