TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I don’t know where you were with the accounting, but the last two weeks you haven’t paid for. Last week would have been sixty. The week before, we only did Wednesday Thursday, so it would be forty for that.

CLIENT: Okay. Alright. So, Friday – we’re not doing tomorrow, right?

THERAPIST: We’re not doing tomorrow, yes.

CLIENT: Okay, so Friday I’ll try to bring these up.

[movement]

CLIENT: What’s up?

THERAPIST: You’re growing a beard.

CLIENT: Is it showing yet?

THERAPIST: Yeah, oh yeah.

CLIENT: How’s it looking?

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I think it looks good. Never had a beard. On this side, there’s a little spot here that doesn’t grow quite like this side. But of course my Assyrian friends are like “Oh, you just trim this side little bit, trim it, like this”. So, I figured out the loan thing, I think. I still have not heard back from this company. Can you believe that shit? I put together a whole – I was like “here’s a photo of the letter, here’s the e-mail response from your douchebag employees, telling me all this stuff” – didn’t hear back. And, mind you, not just to customer service, I got the personal business e-mails of the regional managers. So it’s like, wow. One of you can’t even respond? The good news is, the Department of Education finally got back to me. Because I was worried, why is the Department of Education not getting back to me? They sent me a really good e-mail today that really broke it down. It still doesn’t excuse the company, by the way, but when I consolidated, the one thing they do that I don’t think is cool is that it’s up to you to list your loans. Like, they don’t go into their database and see “Okay, let’s look at all his loans”. For whatever reason, they don’t do that. They just go on what you’re telling them. Weird, right? The fucking Department of Education. So when you’re looking at your NLDS, when you look at that database that tells you all your loans, it’s just kind of confusing. And then when you’ve got to match that with the things they ask you on the application, it’s – so somehow I didn’t list three or four of my loans. Or I mis-listed – I don’t know what I did. Those are the ones that then defaulted, and then were sent to the company. Now, I’m not even going to get into questions like why didn’t the Department of Education tell me that those were going – I’ve received nothing from nowhere, but I look online, and they have my records, they know where I live. But they were cool; they were like “You can just consolidate those”. So unfortunately I do that application again for those, but, you know. [00:03:15]

THERAPIST: So some of them got consolidated and some of them didn’t.

CLIENT: All the rest are. There’s like, three or four loans that aren’t. It’s a little confusing, I’m not sure I totally get it, because I went online to look at all of my loans, and there are like six – not different loans, but six that are from like, two or three different places. Those are the ones that are listed as defaulted. So I’ll just take those and just, you know. But I cannot believe, I mean…

THERAPIST: So, how about the ones that got consolidated that you still hadn’t heard anything? [00:03:56]

CLIENT: Oh those. So those, I went online to that database. They all say “Zero balance, zero payment due.”

THERAPIST: That doesn’t make any sense.

CLIENT: That doesn’t make any sense. I don’t know if they I’m going to, that’s the next. I just want to take care of this, and then … Because when I saw that it said zero, I was just like, “Okay…” I’m going to call them about this, but now I see that it says “zero due”, still, that’s the most up-to-date information, so I think when I respond to them about this, I’ll just say, “Look, the ones that you did consolidate—” [00:04:25]

THERAPIST: Haven’t heard anything.

CLIENT: Do you know, is this that you know that I’m unemployed, and there’s something that kicks in that – I just don’t know. So anyway, it’s a headache, but it’s getting done, you know? That made me feel a lot better. Not hearing at all is like “What the fuck?” And it also made me feel a lot better because I thought about that when I left, just “Why didn’t I fucking call them, to see if I owe them something”. So at least now I feel like, okay. For whatever reason, it says that no payments are due right now. I don’t know if there’s something [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: But you still will call.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah yeah. I don’t know if there’s something, maybe when I consolidated, maybe there was something where maybe you get a grace period; there must be something like that. Because that was the whole point, I was like, I’m unemployed, or way underemployed or something like that.

THERAPIST: So it could be six months interest free -

CLIENT: Something like that. Like, something’s accruing maybe, but I don’t have to pay it, who the fuck knows. Because I know that I get shit from the Department of Education. That’s how I consolidated. They send you things in the mail. That makes me feel kind of better. It makes me feel a lot better, actually. One way or the other I’m not going to be in default.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s huge. [00:05:47]

CLIENT: I don’t get why they don’t have a way to just check all your loans when you’re applying. That’s what a consolidation is. Whatever I have, just fucking do it, but that’s okay. Paid the rent. Somehow – I don’t know how I’m doing this. I’m proud. I don’t know how I’m doing it. Somehow. Remember how I said I might have to ask my friend? Somehow it’s getting done. I might have like, fifty bucks left by Friday, because my car insurance also comes out usually the first week of every month, but I don’t know. It’s somehow getting done. Looking into the reverse mortgage for my mom. So, yeah. It’s a lot. [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: And your uncle?

CLIENT: Yeah, we’re going to – oh, did I tell you about my business plan? Shit. I should have brought a copy in for you. Damn it. So I got that. Yeah. It’s all finished, it’s like fifteen pages, and it was actually – it wasn’t easy, but the SBA has a really good, not just a template, but you just plug it in [00:07:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you said.

CLIENT: Oh, did I? I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: No, that’s okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, so, I did that. My uncle’s been really sick, so. And my aunt, finally the wacky aunt’s here from Portsmouth. So my mom’s trying to find the right – I think my uncle’s really helping that. The poor guy is like, I think he’s – the son now works for him and I’m pretty sure he’s trying to pressure my uncle to help him buy a house. My uncle’s in a weird place. Those guys are – I never thought this would happen, especially to that family, but right now my mom and I are the most together in this whole – the most, not together, the most healthy, I guess? My other cousins, they have money, they’re doing much, much better now, my uncle is doing – but they have internal, they have issues. So it’s weird. Of all the – you know. So we’re going to talk to him, but we’re trying not to. If this reverse mortgage thing makes sense, I’d rather not burden him. My mom told me that he told her in private that he’s going to pay for her car payments. It’s so awesome, it’s very sweet, but I’m so embarrassed by those things; that he has to do that. And my mom didn’t say it to make me feel bad, she was just saying, you know, he’s [00:09:15]

THERAPIST: He’s already doing something, doing so much.

CLIENT: But I’m also trying – I don’t want to know – because, you know, they’re sisters? My mom is still my mom, she feels a little, like, “Who’s he helping more”, and “Bobby’s over there taking advantage”. I don’t want to get involved. I don’t want to. Let him buy Bobby ten houses. I don’t want to get into that mindset of – the guy basically gave me thirty thousand dollars to go to school. He’s been there for me too, he’s been there for people, he’s doing his fucking best. When they all get together, I don’t like that womanly – they start getting a little… what’s the word? Keeping tally. I don’t want to get involved with that.

[Pause from 00:10:02 to 00:10:15]

CLIENT: I don’t know what the point of any of that is. But we just want to try to not have to ask him, basically, is what I’m saying.

[Pause from 00:10:24 to 00:10:35]

CLIENT: This is just a side note, but it does have some meanings. I’m at Christian’s two days ago, or whatever it was. I go to feed the meter. I’m coming back, you know that douchebag bar up there? These dudes are standing outside. Old drunk dudes, you know? As I’m passing one of them, this old dude goes, you know I’m walking, and he just looks at me, and goes, “Hey, you got boobs!” Now normally, this is why I love this story, because normally, that would put me in a fucking tailspin. You don’t tell someone who has vanity, narcissism issues… so without missing a fucking beat, without even breaking my stride, I just said “You do too, buddy!” and just kept walking. And he got so – he was like “What? I don’t have -” He was like this fat old dude. But I just had to laugh. Of course I have to get a random insult. That’s just how it’s been, the last few months. Might as well. Un-fucking-believable. [Laughter] [00:11:44]

THERAPIST: You almost have to laugh.

CLIENT: What’s that?

THERAPIST: You almost have to laugh.

CLIENT: Well it is funny, a fat drunk dude telling me – but on some level, it does – I don’t have one of those total flat indie-rock chests that some dudes have. So I’m like, “What? Do I? No I don’t!” [Laugh]

I don’t have a nerdy, flat chest, I don’t know. I think they’re normal, everything’s normal. I don’t fucking know. So it’s not that it didn’t bother me, I was just really proud of my unflinching response. That felt really good. In the past, I don’t know. I would have either said nothing, or I would – in the past when, very randomly, if some weird thing like that happens, I’ll actually almost pile it on. I’ll laugh, but I’ll do it in a self-deprecating way. You know what I’m saying? [00:12:52]

THERAPIST: Pile on, you mean towards yourself?

CLIENT: Thinking that I’m diffusing and just making a joke out of it, but really – a lot of times that does work, right, it’s like that old trick of like, if you’re in school and people make fun of you, you can quickly stop that by just making fun of yourself. That does work. But when some asshole’s just insulting you, that can’t be your go-to, you know what I mean? You’ve got to be able to look someone in the eye and, if you’re going to joke, then make it at their expense. [00:13:28]

THERAPIST: It’s a different kind of protecting yourself, too. It does work, to start making fun of one’s own self when you’re getting teased, but in a way, that’s kind of embodying abusing your own self. Like, I’ll abuse myself too…

CLIENT: I think that works if you’re not – it depends on who you are, do you know what I mean? If you’re someone that’s already gnawing at your own bones all the time, that’s probably not the way to go, you know what I mean? If you’re someone that’s generally a little more not like that, then sure, you can just make fun of yourself and just move along. But if you’re someone that’s already like, so hard on yourself, it’s like, unrelenting, then that’s not going to work. Because then you’re going to dwell on that. Do you know what I mean? Then you’re going to be like “Why the fuck did I make fun of -” you know. So that felt fantastic. And I didn’t think about it. It just came out of my mouth, I didn’t even stop, I just kept right on going. That was just it. Yeah, it was cool. [00:14:27]

THERAPIST: And you didn’t dwell as much on this.

CLIENT: I didn’t dwell as much, no, I didn’t like, go and look in the mirror or whatever. I mean, you know. It is what it is. I won’t lie, I’m very – obviously I’m vain, and that does bother me, I do notice – I wish that I was more, totally just a flat thing, some dudes are just flat, there’s nothing there. I’m not like that. But at the same time, that’s neither here nor there. It doesn’t mean you have boobs, it just means you have definition, or a certain – you know what I mean? Contours or whatever. What the fuck. So yeah, I don’t know. So I think it was a much healthier – you know. Ultimately it was about just realizing the absurdity – I mean a fat old dude is not going to get me down. [00:15:23]

THERAPIST: Or that he could find something about any person walking by him.

CLIENT: That was the other thing. If he said something to someone else – you know.

THERAPIST: As a way to do something for his own ego.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: It isn’t really about you.

CLIENT: Which was obvious, because it felt so good to hear him as I passed, be like “What? What? I don’t – what? What are you talking about?” Unbelievable. But at the same time it was like, well, of course. It’s not bothering me like it would, but man, wow. Getting hurled insults by drunk people on the street. Drunk old people on the street. Not even, like, a frat jock or something, you know? It’s like, oh, fuck. [00:16:12]

THERAPIST: In a way, we’re talking about whether you take that to heart or not, and it’s good that you had a different kind of resilience about it, but also that’s a horrible experience. It can be scary – it sucks.[crosstalk]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn’t think about that as much, but in general, who wants to be talked to that way?

THERAPIST: Some random person?

CLIENT: Yeah, some drunk asshole.

THERAPIST: That’s awful.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. And I think – I didn’t articulate it that way to myself, but I think basically that’s how I took it. I mean, what the fuck man. People are already dealing with a lot of things, they don’t need to be yelled at on the street by some prick, you know? [drumming sounds] [pause from 00:16:55 to 00:17:10]

THERAPIST: The unpredictability of your mother’s insults, too -

CLIENT: Yeah, just like a random -

THERAPIST: That’s so often what’s come out, at least in the current stories you’ve told me, that she’ll just be kind, kind, kind, and then wham! It just kind of hits you in the face.

CLIENT: Yeah. She’s gotten -

THERAPIST: Better, I know, I know -

CLIENT: but that doesn’t make up for – she could stop doing it forever now, but those things still -

THERAPIST: Well, it’s its own kind of PTSD then isn’t it? It’s like you’re waiting waiting waiting waiting to be insulted.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. And when it does and you do it to yourself, that’s what ends up happening. [00:17:53]

THERAPIST: That’s part of the mechanism that takes over with self-protection. If you beat her to it, you can’t get as hurt by it coming out of the blue.

CLIENT: Right, right, right.

THERAPIST: There’s only so many times you can trust she’s going to just respond in a loving way, and then you get hurt again. So you start then beating her to the punch, internally.

CLIENT: But, yeah. I mean, not but. It’s great – I’m thinking about that now – it’s awesome how that’s been… I’ve really been able to diffuse… it’s like dismantling a bomb. I don’t remember anything she’s said lately, because she’s been so much better. But I do know that – it’s like the business thing. She doesn’t mean to when she’s like “Well, so are you sure it’s going to work?” I’m just getting much – I’ve gotten so good now at – in the moment, I might get a little whatever and think “You know what? I don’t want to hear that.” I’m just very good at shutting that stuff down. And when I leave and I go to my apartment, I’ve forgotten all about it. And I think that’s a healthier… because a lot of people have parents like that, or whatever, a lot of people have wacky dynamics with their parents. But that’s the key is that hopefully they find a way, you know, it bothers them maybe in that second, but then they find a way to – it it’s not who they are, it doesn’t define anything, you know? So that’s really good. [00:19:31]

THERAPIST: You’ve also worked some things with her, over the course of this process.

CLIENT: That’s what I’m saying, kind of, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, like not only working on it not bothering you, that’s great [crosstalk] CLIENT: And she’s gotten so much better – I’ve tamed her, basically.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: But I’ve always done that. That’s something I’ve realized the last maybe, five, six – I started realizing that, wait a minute. When I really put my foot down and I’m confident about something and I’m really sure-footed and vocal, and this and that, and when I don’t do what basically sometimes they do, which is like, get too reactionary, too flustered, because that’s when it – you know. [00:20:07]

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes.

CLIENT: She usually gets on board. The more I realize that, now it’s become, you know. [pause from 00:20:17 to 00:20:29]

CLIENT: But the big thing that I’m struggling with, though, is that – that’s gotten way better too, but it’s just there, is the lonely – I can’t help it, I’m like, going over girls that I’ve dated, there’s a lot of sadness, and I think that all I guess has to happen, but that part is a bummer. It sucks. I feel lonely. This one relationship could have gone this way, or I could have been more patient, or I could have, you know, I don’t know, whatever [00:21:05]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about specifically when you say that?

CLIENT: Kelly, remember that? Years ago, I was dating that older woman, who was like, a vice president?

THERAPIST: What’s her name?

CLIENT: Robin. She moved, and then she got married. Like she’s one I’ve been thinking about. It was about kids and shit, well she’d older, right. And now I don’t have kids. If it was me now, I would have thought very differently about that situation. Someone that was so beautiful, and so cool, and so into me and so nice, and also, let’s face it – I’m realizing now, now I understand guys, and women, who are like, you don’t need to be rich, whatever. But I’m not going to lie, it’s nice if someone is totally together on that front, that’s awesome. Why wouldn’t that be awesome, you know what I mean? As long as it’s all for the right – you know? I didn’t think back then. She was the type that she wanted to kind of, like, not take care of me like a mom, but, you know, she would have really been there for me. [00:22:19]

THERAPIST: Support?

CLIENT: Yeah. It just hurts when I think of those things. It sucks.

THERAPIST: With her it was that she was older? And you weren’t interested in, specifically you did not want to have kids?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, you know. I was like, thirty, somewhere between thirty-four and thirty-six, something like that, and she was already forty-five, or something. You know, I mean, I don’t know. [00:23:00]

THERAPIST: It was so sad to think about what if you could do that relationship over now, or -

CLIENT: Wait, what?

THERAPIST: Just, the sadness about -

CLIENT: Oh, I thought you said “I was so sad”, I’m like “What?”

THERAPIST: No, no, no, I said “It’s so sad”.

CLIENT: Yeah. When you think – that’s what hurts. And also that now it just is what it is, kind of. And part of me hates that I want to reach out, it’s that stupid cliché of come on, it’s just over, you’ve got to move on, you know? I just, I hate those… you know I just hate that.

THERAPIST: The wish is so powerful, though.

CLIENT: It kind of happened with Kelly, and that kind of pissed me off, you know. I kind of reached out to her, and then she kind of wanted to get together and then she didn’t. And that just got – I just don’t like that place where then I feel like, you know, you feel kind of, I don’t know what the word is. Like a wuss, or needy or something, you know? It’s like, naah. I’ve been so good about not being that way, you know? I mean, not that I ever really was that way, but not having those moments where you’re just kind of texting someone, or wanting to somehow connect with that person again, it’s like, dude, there’s nothing to connect. Not to mention, I get upset, because I’m not an idiot, there are also reasons why I am not with them – you know? Like, it’s that, yes, maybe it could have been great, whatever, but the fact is, there was something, back then, that made me not want to see this person all the time, you know. It’s like a combination. I’m sure I was fucked up, too, and that was part of it, but, you know. I don’t know. [00:25:00]

CLIENT: So yeah, there’s just a lot of emotion around that feeling. I’m handling it pretty well, I’m getting better at like, “You know, they’re just thoughts, that’s just my ego trying to do its ego thing”, you know what I mean? Those things are neither here nor there.

THERAPIST: They’re tremendous losses.

CLIENT: Yeah, but they’re losses.

THERAPIST: It’s grief. And it makes it so understandable at times for it to bubble up, the wish that somehow you could undo – something to grieve, take it back, or undo time again. It’s not to say that – one of these people, maybe there would be someone you’d reconnect with. I don’t say that as a blanket statement, but it also wouldn’t be back then, it’s who you are now, who they are now. [00:26:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, and it’s always just, I think, that I always end up just kind of like, like I’ve said, it’s just the one thing, it’s just a bummer, that one part of my life is like a black hole. You know what I mean? Like, I just can’t – you know what I’m saying? I’m like, yeah, there were reasons why I kind of broke up with these people, but I was also fucked up. Like, what’s going on? Why am I so… or why am I even so caught up in this, you know what I mean? People have breakups all the time. It does suck. Whatever. But Robin, that was almost ten years ago. I mean, you know.

THERAPIST: See, I don’t know how you couldn’t be caught up in that right now. That’s -

CLIENT: I mean, yeah. With everything I’m going through, I think that’s what’s happening. You’re alone -

THERAPIST: With this. With this. It’s waking up confused, coming out of a coma, the waters, that metaphor of the water, the storm settling down, and you get to actually see what was beneath the surface. I mean, it’s a totally different set of eyes you have toward yourself, and even toward other people and toward relationships from the past. I think it’s unavoidable, to not have tremendous grief, or longing, or wishes, or fantasies or wonderings. [00:27:26]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think part of it is that you almost want – one some level you just want that person to know how different you are now; you know what I’m saying? I was kind of cleaning out my e-mail, and I found – between that and applying to different universities I was like “Oh, shit. What about the woman at UConn who hired me?” Then it was all, it kind of ended badly and all that, remember that? I was like, “You know what? I’m going to e-mail her.” Not for a job. And not to even bring that up, but literally just to touch base. Like, this is what I’ve been doing, I hope you’re doing great, you know. Just… you know? Because that’s an example right there. Like, what was I thinking? What was going on there? You know what I mean? I was missing class, just cancelling classes, and weird. Like, a total weird disconnect between what I’m supposed to be doing, and what I was – it was just weird. [00:28:26]

THERAPIST: What was going on, when you think of it now?

CLIENT: I think I’d bitten off more than I could chew. That one class – I took a class at eight in the morning. Just like here, I should have just said, “I can’t. I’m not that person. I don’t do eight in the morning.” Because that means – it’s class, you know? You’ve got to be on. It’s not like 8:05, or 8:10, kind of having your coffee and looking out the window. I just should have said no, that was one. Second one I should have said no to is the summer, or whatever, evening, it was like 6:00 to 9:30 or something. I should have immediately been like, I’ve got nothing to say about resumes, and fucking business writing – for that long, I’ve got nothing to say about it. I have nothing to say about it for fifteen minutes, but I can bullshit. But three and a half fucking hours, to MBA students. What is there to talk about? I mean, I don’t know. It’s just a dumb [00:29:24]

THERAPIST: So it was about resumes?

CLIENT: Business writing. How, what could you – you know what I mean? What is there to – there’s a textbook and all this shit. What the fuck is there to talk about? They’re not children. So I should have just, if I knew myself the way I know now, yeah I could use the money, but… But again I got caught up, “Oh, they’re asking me to teach more at UConn”. You know what I mean? So, yeah.

THERAPIST: And your relationship with her?

CLIENT: Well I got busted. With the morning class, you know, some of the students complained, or they must have. Something must have happened. She ended up knowing that I’d missed, you know. And yeah, it was just all awkward and awful.

THERAPIST: Knowing that you’d cancelled class, or? [00:30:13]

CLIENT: Yeah, she was like, “What’s going on here?” you know, whatever. And I don’t remember what I said, I think I tried to make up a white lie or something, I was just so embarrassed. She wasn’t mean at all, she was kind of more, like, surprised, and said “Why wouldn’t you just talk to me, or tell me that there’s any issue”. You know. But even that. It’s almost like letting these people know that man, dude, honestly, you don’t know what, like you don’t know how asleep I was back then. You don’t get it, you know what I mean? So just to let them know that things are very, very different now, just for what it’s worth, you know what I mean? It’s not like, “Be my friend,” or whatever. Just, for what it’s worth. You know. So yeah, that’s a tough one. I’m having – it’s not depressing me, but it’s definitely, like, sad, and melancholy. It’s popping up in my – that’s why I think I’m having dreams with like, women in them. I think it’s just… [00:31:37]

THERAPIST: More dreams?

CLIENT: I’ve been having more, yeah. At this point I can’t even keep track of, yeah. There’s a lot of dreams about – there’s just themes now, about, you know, either I’m lost, or trying to get somewhere, people, trying to sort things out with people, trying to explain or whatever. There was one, I couldn’t drive. Another one, one of those things where it’s like, all slow, and I can’t – I’m driving, but I’m like, sleeping, so a cop pulls me over or something, or I hit a tree or some shit like that. So yeah. It’s a combination of, like, stress dreams or whatever, but also I think it’s all this trying to work out of, trying to get somewhere, you know what I mean? Things are in, a lot of transformation is going on and stuff, you know? [00:32:38]

THERAPIST: I wonder if there’s been a revival of that – the driving dream. Because you’ve had those a lot before, in the past, where you’re stuck falling asleep, or slowed down, or just around the stuff about the loans, like that’s critical – things are going okay, and then this hits you and it feels like [00:32:58]

CLIENT: It could be the loan, I think it’s everything. I think, on some level that is strictly, just, like, a PTSI mean, I got arrested twice. You know. First time I thought it was over, then they bust into my house and drag me away. I mean, that’s, you know, I’m scared of that shit, you know. And I think, as usual, I kind of just stoically went through it. That’s like another just – I can tick it off on my list of things, “Oh, yeah, whatever, I was arrested, shackled, and put into a—” Like, what? What the fuck? Are you kidding me? I mean, that’s… you know. It happens, it’s not like they just came for me. It’s not a world against me kind of thing. But whoever it’s happened to, who clearly is not a criminal, clearly there’s some misunderstanding, that’s – it stays with you. It really stays with you. Because it happens now. Now, even if I have one drink, two drinks, I know I’m totally fine, whatever, but I do find myself getting very stiff, when I’m driving back home, getting hyper, you know. It’s like your mind plays tricks on you. You’re like “Am I swerving? Am I in the lane?” You know? It’s like, just, you’re petrified. Fucking petrified. [00:34:18] The registration thing – fuck.

THERAPIST: Which? What’s the registration thing?

CLIENT: My car got towed. That was a state trooper. I was fucked. I don’t know. I don’t know how I got away with – I mean, that could have been really bad. Or not, I mean, I wasn’t drunk, but it doesn’t matter. If they decide, they’re going to make you do all those tests or whatever, and if they have any suspicion, and you’re scared and fucking nervous, and you’re stammering, or you’re just whatever, you know, they can push you, and they have, they can just arrest you, or they can just “Hey, I’m sorry I think you’re drunk.” Whatever. Are you going to do the breathalyzer? No? Well okay, fine. You know? It could just be a fucking nightmare. So I think sometimes, combined with all this other shit, I’m sure that has something to do with it, that fear of – I get scared late at night, I don’t get scared but I do – it’s really dissipated now. But I won’t lie, you know, when I hear cops, or I see the blue lights suddenly flashing, like the shadow or whatever, it makes me pause, you know what I mean? On top of, then, the fucking terrorist bullshit. I’m sure a lot of people in Cheshire – every time you fucking hear weird noises, or, you know. So. [00:36:00]

THERAPIST: On top of the trauma of losing your dad, and all the slowing down of yourself and freezing yourself that happened then.

CLIENT: Well, it’s utter powerlessness. That’s the thing, I think. If more people got arrested, more people that shouldn’t be arrested, I think the criminal justice system would be very different. When you’re in that situation where there isn’t a goddamn thing you can do – it doesn’t matter how innocent you are, you’re a great person, you just forgot to pay your fine, you’re going to take care of it, you’ll pay it now, it doesn’t matter. When they’re doing things by the books, you are the accused, and they are the law. I mean that’s – I don’t know. It’s hard to put that into words, that feeling, you know.

[pause from 00:37:07 to 00:37:22]

I have an unrelated question. So it looks like I’m down to two programs; UConn and Mystic. Mystic has a – I think theirs is like an MA in counseling, or MS in counseling, mental health – I don’t know, something like that. What’s the ethics of, like, it’s okay for me to say, you know, “I’ve been in psychoanalysis for a long time, other than bettering myself, and whatever.” Is it okay to talk about these things? [00:37:56]

THERAPIST: You mean on an application?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, is it like, a personal statement, or?

CLIENT: Their whole thing is, like, you know, what’s driving you?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s – people include that kind of thing on college applications.

CLIENT: It’s pretty important, if not the most important thing I have to say, so. Now, this is really a naïve question, but, therapists don’t write letters for their patients, do they?

THERAPIST: To apply for things? No.

CLIENT: Yeah, because that’s like a confidentiality thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Right, okay. Just wondering. Okay. Yeah, it just crossed my mind, because they’re like “You know, you should have some social science courses, or some kind of background in something”. I was like, “I’ve been in Claire University for fucking ten years”. But okay, so I can tell them that I’ve been doing this? Okay, cool. [00:39:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Those are the only programs that are around here that are do-able, you know. The one thing I like about Mystic maybe a little bit more than UConn, is that it’s a rolling admission, so I can get started faster. I don’t know. The best thing I can do, I think, is to talk to faculty in both, just go meet with them, or just sit and just chat, but. [00:39:58]

THERAPIST: You can do that, maybe meet with Admissions.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I’m really good about, like, just finding faculty, and just, you know. Like, there was someone at UConn, her response was a little curt. She’s in the clinical, she’s a professor, and she does things in, like, identity, and minority, kind of stuff. But when she wrote back – I don’t get the UConn thing. I said “This MS blah blah blah blah blah program,” and she said “We don’t offer an MS. You might be talking about the online MS.” And I was like, “Well, are those different professors?”

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s probably a different program. Maybe in a different department.

CLIENT: Oh, I see. Huh. Okay.

THERAPIST: These are all things you’re going to find out.

CLIENT: Well that’s good to know. Because I’m looking at, like, the faculty lists. [00:40:56]

THERAPIST: And also the MS, if it’s truly an MS, the caution might be that you want to make sure, it could be a terminal degree, is my guess. Or maybe you don’t care about that.

CLIENT: What is -

THERAPIST: Could you get licensed with that Masters’ degree?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: That’s – remember I was saying it was the LMHC -

THERAPIST: LMHC. Okay. So these are both LMHC programs.

CLIENT: I’m going to double-check the Mystic one. They make a big deal about, like, this prepares you to take the whatever exam.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because that’s very different from, like, BU, for example, a lot of people have Masters’ programs in clinical psychology, but there’s nothing you can do with it after that, except go on and get your PhD.

CLIENT: I looked at some of those. That’s why I wouldn’t do those. Not only that, they’re very – they’re almost like “If you have an interest in psychology,”, do you know what I mean? They’re not preparing you -

THERAPIST: More like people trying to feel it out, and then unsure what they’re going to do next, but it is not terminal. [00:41:58]

CLIENT: That’s right. So I need to make sure that it’s something that I then can take and -

THERAPIST: Sit for the licensing exam.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or, social work is also a terminal degree, it’s a little longer.

CLIENT: Right. Right. Yeah, because my feeling is, I probably wouldn’t sit for the exam. It’s for the coaching, you know. But just having it is more than enough. Although I could -

THERAPIST: Why would you not sit for the exam?

CLIENT: Yeah, why would you not sit – of course I would. I’m just saying in the meantime, that’s the important thing. For the business, that would be huge, huge. And also if I did that, then I could take insurance, right?

THERAPIST: Get the school insurance?

CLIENT: No I mean, once I’m licensed or whatever, I could see clients and get insurance.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. Yep.

CLIENT: I mean, that’s huge. That’s huge. I’ve already been kind of half-joking with a few friends, you know, they’re like, “I’ve got to see a life coach”. And finally, I’ve been saying, “Make an appointment”. People keep saying this shit. It’s like, you know, not to be a douche about it, but it’s like – then, talk to me, and really get to see a life coach, you know. My friend yesterday, she was like “I’ve got to budget for it”. Okay. [00:43:29]

THERAPIST: It’s complicated if it’s your friend.

CLIENT: It is, life coaching’s a little different that way, I think I was saying, they blur those lines a lot more.

THERAPIST: For money.

CLIENT: I’m sorry?

THERAPIST: I’m saying, someone would see a friend for money? Have a friend pay them for their services? In life coaching?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, they do it, yeah. It’s not what I want to do, but as a way to start – that’s why I was saying, I might do it for free. I might just say to my – select, a select group – “you know, if you guys, some of you have joked around about whatever, or been serious or… I’m trying to get started, get some traction, so if you guys want to come in, you know?” Would that be weird, too, do you think?

THERAPIST: It’s so hard – in my field it wouldn’t -

CLIENT: You can’t do that, I know. I think it’s kind of weird for me, too, but…

THERAPIST: In our field it’s unethical. We can’t do it.

CLIENT: Right. For me it’s just personally weird. I just don’t want to do it. I don’t care if life coaches do it or not, but…

THERAPIST: So, Friday.

CLIENT: Friday at…?

THERAPIST: 2:20.

CLIENT: 2:20. Thanks, Claire. Have a good one.

END TRANSCRIPT