TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: No, I ended up having a conflict with someone at the – it was a very small setting and -

CLIENT: Fisticuffs?

THERAPIST: No, no, a conflict of professional and clinical worlds.

CLIENT: Oh, really?

THERAPIST: Yeah, so, it just didn’t make sense for me to be there

CLIENT: Oh, that’s interesting. So someone was going to be there who’s a patient?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: Whoa, is that, does that happen?

THERAPIST: It does happen, and I mean people – I see people in the field, that happens in this field, people are seen, everybody has their own characters -

CLIENT: Oh, oh, oh, right, right, right, that’s right. Wow. That’s interesting.

THERAPIST: But if it’s a large setting, it’s not as problematic. If it’s a small setting, it can be complicated.

CLIENT: If there’s going to be some kind of, yeah. Like, I can see that being weird, yeah. Speaking of which, let’s talk some shop here. So, I have a few questions. The LMHC and the LMFT. Does it matter? [00:01:00]

THERAPIST: I don’t know the LMFT at all.

CLIENT: Family, whatever, therapists? Okay. Because this woman, who, I really like what she does at UConn, she’s in the LMFT, or I’m sorry, she’s in the MS – they have three MS’s: Family and Marriage Therapy, Mental Health Counseling, and Rehabilitation Counseling. I’m not going to do Rehabilitation – you know, I don’t want to go to a hospital and deal with a cokehead or whatever. But the other two, they seem… I mean, you can see people, you can see couples if you – I’m not sure what the difference is there. The other thing is, so there’s a difference in pay, right? In terms of insurance.

THERAPIST: Pay grade. Yes.

CLIENT: Because obviously psychologists will get paid more of a percentage or whatever it is than – like, social workers will get a different okay. Because that’s kind of important. I mean, if I’m going to do all this, if I’m going to get somehow gypped, or it’s not really, you know what I mean? I’m just trying to figure out what that means, exactly. Like, I’m trying to figure out, okay, so what would I get. If I charged this per hour, and someone has insurance, what does that mean? [00:02:21]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I’ve got to figure that out, yeah. I didn’t think about that. But. Anyway, okay.

THERAPIST: I think the pay – insurance companies end up paying, in a way, commensurate with the years you’ve been training. So that’s like, a medical – someone who has an MD gets slightly more than a PhD.

CLIENT: Your schooling, you mean.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. I see. That’s just weird, though, then, because that means, what if the market is something, and that’s what you’re charging per hour? So they’re not going to pay you what you’re [00:03:00]

THERAPIST: Uh uh. Not if you’re a contracted provider. You agree to the rate that they set.

CLIENT: You agree. Okay. Or you charge privately.

THERAPIST: Or you charge privately.

CLIENT: So you can do both. I see. I see.

THERAPIST: Or if they have a PPO plan, you can balance bill. But if you’re part of the HMO, you have to agree to whatever their rate is.

CLIENT: Right. Okay. So that’s something I’ve got to ask around about or whatever. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Sounds like just a lot of research.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m sure it’s fine, but it’s just good to know.

THERAPIST: It is good to know. It’s like making -

CLIENT: I mean, because this is – I mean I am interested in all this, obviously, but would I be going to a program? No. I mean it’s just for business, you know what I mean? Luckily it’s something I’m really interested in, but I would never do this if it wasn’t – you know what I mean? I have no desire to go back to graduate school. So, you know, it’s got to be worth it. I mean I probably have to take out loans again, you know. So it’s really got to be worth doing. [00:04:00]

THERAPIST: And you definitely don’t want to go into it thinking it’s one thing and then figuring out in some way it’s not what you thought it was.

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly.

THERAPIST: It’s a big commitment. Financially, time.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. It seems like it would be well worth doing, but yeah, it’s just good to know those nuts and bolts kinds of things. Do you just call the insurance company and ask them these kinds of things? Because online, there wasn’t really -

THERAPIST: Yeah, it’s not – it’s hard to find. It’s not online. It’s not online.

CLIENT: Right? Because I’m sure they don’t just they don’t just post that online. Okay. So maybe I just need to call them.

THERAPIST: Sometimes they don’t even tell you, even if you have a – I could call right now, if someone were to have insurance with them and say “What’s the rate you want?” and they’ll say “We won’t, we can’t tell you until you submit a bill and you get a reimbursement for it”. That’s how you find out. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.

CLIENT: So basically you have to ask other people in your boat what they’re getting, kind of. [00:05:01]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: Jesus Christ. Okay.

THERAPIST: This is where your having – I mean, just having other people in the community that you could network with, this is the kind of stuff people have a peer supervision group, and what are you guys doing about this, and what are you getting for this, it all comes up.

CLIENT: Exactly. Yeah yeah yeah. And I think that’s one of the first things that I’ll probably do. If I can figure out the financial stuff. Maybe get a mentor coach? Just like you have, you know, someone. Because I have reached out to coaches, but a lot of them are – some of them are younger than me, they’re not – they seem like we’re just basically the same. There’s nothing – I don’t see any major, you know. So that’s good too. You need that, you know? And I’m sure there’s things they know that I don’t know. But yeah, I feel like someone who’s really seasoned… [00:06:00]

THERAPIST: Well you might have to pay, but it might be worth having a consultation to get all these questions down and go in and – yeah.

CLIENT: No, no, it’s totally worth doing all that.

[pause from 00:06:12 to 00:06:27]

I remembered some of my dreams. There was a scary one with a dude, I was driving, and some dude started, like, shooting at cars, trying to kill people.

THERAPIST: This is one from a few nights ago that you’re referring to, or last night?

CLIENT: Not last night. I’d had some last night too, but of course -

THERAPIST: Sometime in the last week.

CLIENT: In the last week. There was one; yeah, they keep kind of popping back into my mind. That’s the main thing I remember. I thought there was something else, too. [00:07:03]

THERAPIST: Was it someone in particular?

CLIENT: No, I think I was really upset about this fucking shit in Africa? That they go into the schools and like, kill these students in their sleep, and stuff. So I think it was that, but also I think it’s, you know, you’re trying to get somewhere and someone’s trying to stop you. Pretty symbolic. I got away; I almost saw it happening, I almost – in the dream, it was almost like, just as he was about to do it, I kind of knew something. So I literally just drove in the other direction. Didn’t even see much of what happened or anything like that. So that was interesting.

THERAPIST: You weren’t frozen?

CLIENT: Oh, no. I got the hell out of there, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s interesting, I wasn’t frozen, yeah. I didn’t think about that. [Pause from 00:07:58 to 00:08:23]

THERAPIST: With the defaulting thing, it’s like a danger. All of a sudden the old stuff comes haunting back. Is it the old, do you figure it out and take care of it? In the dream you’re getting out of there. Keeping yourself safe.

[Pause from 00:08:42 to 00:08:59]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What are you thinking?

CLIENT: Not sure. Yeah, I mean I was thinking – I was just thinking about that, I was thinking about, like, also about the relationship thing, that’s become such a… it’s really on my mind now. Because maybe that’s related too, you know? It’s the kind of time when I have to be careful to not – you’ve just got to be careful, you know what I mean? You’ve got to just make sure you’re taking care of your – to not make any rash decisions, or to not go to either extreme, of making it more of a big deal than it really is, or meeting someone and just kind of – you know what I mean? I don’t do that much anymore. [00:10:09]

THERAPIST: Meeting someone and just kind of, what?

CLIENT: I’m not sure, exactly. I’m just saying, like, that it’s just so much on my mind, I feel like I need to just be aware of that, and not – just be aware of it.

THERAPIST: And when you say what’s on your mind about it? Being sad about it, longing for a relationship, the past?

CLIENT: All of it. Yeah. Going over stuff in the past, being sad about it, wanting somebody, wondering why the fuck this is so difficult, all of it. Stopping myself from reaching out to people… like, I’m just on the cusp of, you know, I’m just going to write Kelly an e-mail. Very quick, like, I’m going to be like, you don’t even have to respond, don’t worry about it. I just want to apologize for how things went down. [00:11:01]

THERAPIST: For what? When you’re thinking about it?

CLIENT: Because I feel like again, I don’t know, was I really thinking? I don’t know. Yeah, she has a kid. I don’t know. I’m not confident with my decision-making prowess when it comes to this shit. It’s the one thing I don’t – because everything else is pretty much fixed, right? I know very clearly, yep, I shouldn’t have gone to Brown, and that would never happen again. Or I’m really good about saying “No, I don’t want to do this.” That’s one thing I can’t wrap my head around.

THERAPIST: So it’s hard to trust, in a way, did you not follow that out further for good reasons, or were they defensive reasons?

CLIENT: That’s what I’m saying. Like was I just being an asshole, and you know, she’s a little bit – not as thin as I wanted, and even though I wasn’t going there, subconsciously was I going there? Or, even the kid. Yeah, that is an issue. But did I let it just – instead of just saying “Wait a minute, we don’t have to rush, I don’t have to break up with her. Let’s just keep going, and just see what happens.” Do you know what I mean? It’s not that those things weren’t issues, I was right, that those things are issues. And there were things about her – she’s not perfect, there were things, even in her personality, I think I was saying in here. But I don’t know. I just feel like my track record isn’t good. Well, there’s something with everybody. I seem to find stuff with everybody, right, and I can rationalize a lot of it. “Well, Meredith was like this.” Well, a lot of that is true, I’m just saying -

[00:12:48]

THERAPIST: What if you’re going to find something wrong with everyone, maybe?

CLIENT: That and also just not sticking it out. You’ve got to commit to these things, kind of, even when it’s shitty sometimes, right? I never do. Either there’s a kid, or she’s kind of nuts or whatever, which all is true, but, I mean who… you know what I mean? No? I don’t know. [00:13:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I hear you. I think it’s tricky because -

CLIENT: I’m not saying I made the wrong decisions, I’m just saying the way I made those decisions. Like with Meredith, what the fuck? I just left. I fucking left, you know. And I left her there. That’s kind of – you know?

THERAPIST: Where did you go? When you say you left.

CLIENT: I mean I came back here. And she stayed in London.

THERAPIST: In London.

CLIENT: Like, what was going on there? As bad as things might have been in my mind, that’s the girl that moved for me, to fucking Scotland. That’s a bit of an extreme example, but it’s pretty symbolic. Even Michelle, yeah, she was manic and wacky, whatever. But, I don’t know. Did I really try to sit down with her and talk these things out? Nope. And even with Kelly, we really didn’t talk that much in person about these things, you know what I mean? So I just worry that there’s something in me – I have that thing where it just shuts down, and once it shuts down – remember I was saying when she took me away from my birthday? I couldn’t even have sex with her. What is that? That worries me a little bit. Like, to be so hot and cold. I remember thinking “Oh, this is over. I’ve already decided. I just want to get back home.” Once I go to that place, there’s no room for, like, “Wait a minute, we’ve invested a lot of emotion here, this is a really good person.” You know what I mean? There’s no – that worries me a little bit. Like, what the fuck. Like, who leaves a 24, 25-year-old girl, who’s moved around the world to be with you, who wants to marry you? Yeah, yeah there are issues, and she doesn’t want to have sex right now, or she had a healthI mean, an eating disorder – I mean, she has issues. What the fuck. I mean, so do I, you know what I mean? I don’t know. I think what it is, is, I know for a fact, with all those, a lot of it was insecurity. That’s an insecure person. Why aren’t we having sex? And I let it – I could not think clearly. If this girl didn’t care about you – she lives with you and left the place she wanted to be, that she had planned to be at, to be in this drizzly, shitty place with you. You know. And yeah, maybe it’s a little difficult, maybe it’s this, maybe it’s that, but that is how these things are. Very few relationships are like “Yep, we met, and we’ve been skipping down the street ever since”. So that bums me out. That really bums me out. [00:16:09]

THERAPIST: With Meredith in particular, just taking her for example, you remember the feeling, the feeling was that she must not want to be with you, if she doesn’t want to have sex?

CLIENT: She was also a little bit – not cold, but just reserved on some level. And those things combined, and the fact that she was so young, so I just worried that on some level – you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: On some level – finish your sentence.

CLIENT: That she was in, but not a hundred per cent in – she was ninety-eight percent in, you know what I mean? I couldn’t – I just didn’t feel, for whatever reason, I felt like, I don’t know. Also, I did feel like, even if you don’t really want to have sex, that is weird to me, a little bit. You go through phases, but our whole relationship was like that. I don’t know. I’m not totally second-guessing myself. I’m just saying, to just cross a line over someone’s name, that’s what I’m trying to say, without sitting down, really talking it out – I’ve never done that. Ever. I’ve never had a conversation that was like, “This isn’t really working for me, why don’t we maybe go our own ways, or, what do you think?” I’ve never done that. It’s always been like, I’ll just either disappear, or there will be some – something will happen that I know I can use, kind of. Like “Oh, I can’t – that’s too much. You’re being kind of this or that” or something. You know what I’m saying? So that’s what I don’t – you know. [00:18:01]

THERAPIST: So even if there might have been good reasons why you might have broken up anyway, you’re saying what’s missing is the phase of kind of trying to see could we work on this, could this get better, what happens when we talk about it with each other?

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. That’s hard; I’m having trouble letting that go. That’s what’s bumming me out. I feel like those things – I’ve moved on, I guess, but in a way I haven’t. Those things just, they’re just, you know?

THERAPIST: Hard to swallow.

CLIENT: It’s hard to swallow, especially when you combine it with some of those checklist things that I have, you know what I mean? I was really lucky. That streak there, was one after the other of like, you know what I mean? And now I’m all like, “I’m older, blah blah blah”, I don’t even go out now, so I don’t even have a chance to – like, I’m just – you know what I mean? All these things combine to make you feel like, what the fuck. I’m not going to find someone like that again. Now I really do have to settle, you know what I mean, I just have to find someone who’s pretty enough, or who’s cool enough, and, you know, just deal with it. You know what I mean? Whereas with those people, I felt that deep, deep, kind of passionate, you know. I didn’t necessarily feel that with Kelly, remember? [00:19:29]

THERAPIST: I do remember.

CLIENT: On one hand, that’s healthy, I think, I guess, but, yeah, it’s all very confusing. I don’t know what to trust, or what to…

[pause from 00:19:39 to 00:19:54]

CLIENT: And, clearly, all of that is really about what you think of yourself. So the fact that I’m even thinking this much about it then bums me out, because I’m like, “Clearly, that means I’m not quite…” When it comes to that one – music, fine. Writing, fine. Friendships – everything’s head and shoulders better, right? That one thing is better, but proportionally it’s not the same. There’s still – deep down, I just feel like, as though I’m not as – there’s something about me that’s, yeah they like me, but… you know what I mean, I’m not quite… [00:20:31]

THERAPIST: Not quite…?

CLIENT: I don’t know, like, not quite… as attractive, not just physically, but there’s just something, I don’t know. Whatever, but there’s something, you know.

THERAPIST: That’s the feeling it sounds like haunts you throughout these relationships.

CLIENT: Because even other things where I’ve dated other girls here and there, much lesser things, like what happened? I go over them like, I don’t think – I was just myself, I didn’t do anything wrong, I didn’t see anything weird… what happened there? Like, why didn’t any of these girls – not that there were that many – but there were a few that I thought could have been something, you know what I mean? What was the deal? And clearly, not everyone is meant for dating. That’s okay, like obviously I’m not into a shitload of girls that are probably really great. But, you know what I’m saying? I just feel like, well… In some ways I feel like I’m the one doing the chasing, still. Which also isn’t true, because obviously I’ve been chased plenty of times, just not by the people I want to be chased by. Whatever. So, all that stuff just bums me out. I feel like the fact that I’m even giving it so much fucking bandwidth in my head is like “What?” you know.

THERAPIST: How could you not, though, Brian[?]? This is one of the most important part of peoples’ lives. [00:20:00]

CLIENT: But in a way it shouldn’t be.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Having, wanting a significant other, or someone you can call your own?

CLIENT: Yeah. Of course it’s important, but I think it’s… what’s the word. There’s too much of a – it’s unbalanced. You know what I mean? I mean, this is my more spiritual side talking here. Because life is short and you either – you’re not going to find happiness with other people. You’re going to find fulfillment with other people, some kind of – but that is only going to happen when you have it. Do you know what I mean? So all this torture we go through with this kind of stuff, of course it’s important, I mean you don’t want to human contact, and love, I mean, it’s super important. But I’m just saying that it’s important to also not let it outweigh things that are connected more to you, like your essence. Instead of like “Why don’t I have a girlfriend?” The part that you’re right about is, yeah, how could I not, in terms of the past things, yeah, I think this is just something I’m going to have to deal with right now, just because, I think I just feel so much better, and those things are just kind of, they’re making me cringe, kind of, you know what I mean? Like, I was saying about UMass, remember? It’s like that. I just feel kind of embarrassed – not embarrassed, I just feel like, what happened there? You know what I mean? It’s almost like what I say about LA. I have memories, of like, yep, that was me, I did that, I remember that day, but I’m like, what? Who was that guy? What was going on there? It was weird. And that’s how I feel about Samantha, and Michelle, and Meredith. Kelly, not so much. I feel like I was, kind of [00:24:09]

THERAPIST: Much, much less so.

CLIENT: Much less so, yeah. I just wish – again, it ended still kind of abruptly, I feel like, you know? Like, we didn’t just try to talk it out more and just try to – I don’t know. It was just texting and e-mailing and you know, I don’t know, I’m just weird. So, way better, and I’m pretty – I’m like 95% sure it was the right thing to do. But… I don’t know.

THERAPIST: I mean, just like other parts of your life, like, academically, or the decision not to do the fellowship teaching -

CLIENT: In the UK, yeah?

THERAPIST: In the UK. Where you look back, and you’ve thought, you’ve looked a million times, What was I thinking, or why wasn’t my career in that place – I think this is another area where… the reason why I say it matters is, of course we don’t want you to be haunted and preoccupied in a way that feels obsessive, but to the degree that it is, it means there’s something, you’re actually getting to look back now, for the first time, with a very different set of eyes, and there’s so much more to understand now, that I think we don’t fully understand about what was happening, in each of those relationships. I think there’s a lot to know. Even if you can’t change it, it still sounds like it feels confusing. You keep saying, “What was I thinking? What was I thinking?” [00:25:39]

CLIENT: Well, because it worries me that there’s something there that now is hindering me.

THERAPIST: Probably somehow.

CLIENT: Yeah, that’s what’s worrying me, like, you know, why am I not going out? I don’t need to drink. But why am I not – like, I’m not making any effort, yeah I’m online, whatever, but even that, I’m just looking at pictures and feeling like “Eh, what am I doing, who cares?” Or there will be a couple, and of course – and that’s the thing, the few that I might really want to talk to, like, what’s that about? Because generally I don’t hear back, right? Am I still being attracted to like – I’m just trying to replace Samantha and Meredith, that’s what worries me. You know what I’m saying? Now I have a different checklist. It’s about these people that I dated once. So it’s like “Oh, man. Does she remind me of Meredith, or of Samantha, or does she have that look, or that –” You know, that’s… I don’t know.

[pause from 00:26:43 to 00:27:30]

CLIENT: Because I feel like in a way, this is – I mean there’s a lot of other stuff, just day-to-day stresses, that are stopping me from, you know, like writing, I just cannot concentrate, you know? But I feel like this is a big one. I feel like I’m not – when you – when you’re thinking about this stuff, it’s hard to really have the mental space for your art, you know, because you’re constantly either lonely, or you’re kind of scanning, and you have questions, and you’re going over things, and I don’t know. [00:28:10]

THERAPIST: Is it hard to bring it in here?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: What you’re scanning and going over?

CLIENT: It’s not hard. It’s just challenging, because I don’t even know what it is – it’s so complicated, I feel like.

THERAPIST: Because it feels like there’s so much there. Like, any one of these relationships, to me, as the outsider, still feels like it’s kind of a haze. What was actually happening? There’s a story of what’s happening, and then there was what was really happening, the feelings underneath that, that I think were hard to name then, that might not be as hard to name now, if you actually were to talk about it. What were the insecurities? What was it like, starting up the relationship? Why were you drawn to her in particular? [00:29:05]

CLIENT: Well, see, that’s the whole other thing. Yeah, on the one hand I was lucky, but what was I lucky – basically I’m just saying that I was lucky about the way they looked, in a way, is what I’m saying. So that in and of itself says a lot. See, that’s what I’m saying, all these things, they’re just worrisome, a little bit, because I’m not over that. I just can’t – I mean, on the one – and then that’s confusing, because like, well, you’re attracted to what you’re attracted – I mean I can’t just suddenly be attracted to something completely -

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it can change, it actually can.

CLIENT: I mean, it kind of has changed. I mean, Uma isn’t – she’s not – she’s pretty, but she’s not, you know… But, yeah I don’t know. [00:29:54]

THERAPIST: Brian, for you, love, the original love of your mother, was filled with stings and being unseen. So I do think there are ways the people you’ve fallen for have repeated that, right, you were all about them, you weren’t really seen, truly, you could remain invisible, and protected, and safe, and put them on a pedestal, and then this craziness would come out more. An eating disorder or I don’t want to have sex with you, or whatever was the form of stinging that would happen, because of something in her, but that you sort of have the radar for detecting that in others, as all people do, you find what is familiar. That’s what love felt like. That’s all you’ve ever known, is that it comes with being stung, and being rejected. [00:30:51]

CLIENT: Right. Right. That’s what I’m trying to say, that all these things – that’s what I mean by the insecurity, that it’s – yeah, it’s just from years and years of just not being [yawns] sorry – not being, like, a whole person, who is like, you know, unconditionally loved, and just, I mean, everything’s just a downer, and critical, and this and that, so yeah, of course, like I… So then what happens is A) you get attracted to people like that, but then when you’re in it, it’s confusing, because you’re like “Well, it’s probably because of me, she doesn’t want to have sex”. It’s nothing to fucking do with me. She’s got issues, you know what I mean? But yeah, it’s very hard to parse all that out, and yeah. And then, but that’s kind of what I’m trying to say, then what worries me, is that this is such a deep thing. It’s not Meredith, or it’s from years and years and years of this bullshit. Then you’re like, what the fuck. Yeah, of course, it’s changing, but that means that in that one area, it’s still – I can’t delineate things really well, so I’m not sure about my decision-making, you know what I mean? [00:32:10]

THERAPIST: Something’s changing in that Uma still feels like she’s somebody you want to see and be around. It wasn’t immediately “Oh, I want nothing to do with her anymore because she’s actually a nice person”, right? And yet, you also can feel like “I don’t even really feel like making out with her”. So there’s a way, it’s like, that’s been what’s been erotic, is someone rejecting. Someone who’s enticing, and then rejecting, and then enticing, and then rejecting. And of course that’s not going to work. You get hurt in the end, any person would. [00:32:55]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point too. Sexually, that’s been the kind of formula. So when someone’s just nice and whatever, it’s kind of, like, a turn-off or something.

THERAPIST: It can feel boring, and not exciting. That’s not – literally not what love was built up as, because of your relationship with your mother. And I don’t know as much about your relationship with your father on this, because he matters too, but she’s smothering, and then rejecting, and smothering, and rejecting.

CLIENT: Well, those two things, my dad definitely wasn’t. He was flawed, I’m sure, I mean whatever, he had good things, but -

THERAPIST: We don’t know much, for example, Brian, with him, about your paternal transference. I hardly know anything about that. He’s pretty hazy to me as a character. Like, who he is to you, how he’s built inside you, how that relatedness plays out with other people, and I think once you lose a parent young, some of that gets frozen, like, it would be such a different conversation we would be having now, about all the different kinds of feelings you have about him, than if he were still here. He is going to matter too, I think your mom’s in some ways easier because you know her character more. [Pause from 00:34:26 to 00:34:43]

CLIENT: I don’t know. I mean, it’s also, I think why it’s hard for me – partly I think why it’s hard for me to be with Assyrian women, or why I’ve never – because that’s – right? That’s a cliché, right, it’s too much like my mom. In a lot of immigrant communities, there’s that, you know, that’s the typical – you know, you have more smothering moms in immigrant communities, then if you’re trying to get together with someone from that community, it just – it’s hard to see her just as like a sexual – like a woman I’d meet anywhere. It’s almost as if she’s part of this big family, that you’re trying to not be so smothered by. [Pause from 00:35:23 to 00:35:34]

THERAPIST: I mean, I think the woman who’s been, we said beguiling, a while ago, that’s sort of decidedly not smothering you, right? Sort of removed, hard to get, someone you have to chase after. That protects you from feeling smothered. Right? So, I mean, just even look at that right now. The idea that you’re chasing – you’ve only interpreted in some ways as like, “Why am I not wanted?” but actually you may be totally comfortable in that role, unconsciously, because then you don’t have to feel smothered by her coming after you. When she’s come after you, you [00:36:14]

CLIENT: Well, the crazy thing is, yeah, I mean I do prefer that. I mean, I’d much rather, if I had to pick, I would still pick, even now, I would pick, you know what I mean? I would rather have someone who’s a little bit standoffish, than constantly driving me nuts. To me that’s – any day, I would pick that. The balance is – in a way, that’s why Uma’s cool. You know, she is totally not a smothering person, but she’s also, as far as I can tell, like, a super, just kind of grounded, normal person, you know.

[Pause from 00:36:56 to 00:37:24]

THERAPIST: What’s your earliest memory with your mother?

CLIENT: Earliest? I don’t know. That’s a good question. You know, I don’t know. Earliest memory. You know what’s weird? I don’t think I remember much until we moved to North Carolina, which is pretty old.

THERAPIST: That’s really old. [00:37:57]

CLIENT: Right? Kindergarten. People remember things before kindergarten, right? Usually?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don’t really remember anything here. You know what? Maybe I remember – I don’t know if you were here. It was like an old-school, you know, like the soft-serve, and they had like an old sign of a cow, kind of like, worn out… and that playground was kind of a shitty – you know, that’s pretty new, what they’ve done. So we would walk, she would take me up from that house that was torn down, my grandparents’ house, to the ice cream store. The reason that I remember that is because on the right, there was this house that’s still there, and they had those things in the lawn, like people put shit in their lawn? They had ducks, and I think we would stop and, you know, look at the ducks. So I kind of remember that. And I think I remember that the carriage was olive green. Yeah, I remember that. I think I remember that because the carriage was still there – I think it was in the basement or some shit, but… So I remember that, because I remember those ducks. Other things… I do remember sometimes going to visit my dad’s family; they had a little black poodle. But not that many before I’m like, five or four. Not that many. The gas station, I remember. Because we’d go and they’d either my uncle or my dad, or the guy across the street was also Assyrian, the grocer. We’d go and he’d give us Hostess Twinkies, or cupcakes, or whatever. So I kind of remember that. Is that, not weird, but does it mean something if you can’t remember that much? [00:40:12]

THERAPIST: It could. I mean, what memories are getting consolidated, and what’s not, and why not…

CLIENT: And I do remember that first apartment, when I was born, there was a grocery store on the bottom – like one of those little Italian – and my dad, after work, I think every day, or almost every day, would go there and get, like, a gumball, and like, wrap it in just a brown scrap paper bag thing, and he’d, like, give it to me, I remember that. I remember the old Assyrian lady who lived in the building. So yeah, I remember some stuff. I kind of remember the apartment, and the dark stairway.

THERAPIST: [whispers] tomorrow

CLIENT: Okay, thanks Claire. Cool. 2:20, right?

THERAPIST: 2:20.

CLIENT: Thanks. Have a good one.

END TRANSCRIPT