TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: You’re smiling.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I have hives.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh no.

CLIENT: I mean I didn’t go to the doctor, but this is one of the few times the Internet like nailed it. The pictures. It’s clearly what I have.

THERAPIST: Is it spreading or is it still…?

CLIENT: Well it’s hives, so it’s one of that…just like for example, now it’s just here. It just keeps moving around. And I just looked over here; now it’s subsided. It’s still kind of there. Like here; it’s kind of…it kind of comes and goes. At night it seems to be the worst, you know. I have a different antihistamine to not…that I can take during the day then take the Benadryl at night. And I wrote to my doctor. I don’t have insurance right now, but in case she has, you know. But I mean I feel okay right now; just in the evenings it gets very, you know, then it really gets red and kind of…I don’t know. I’ve never had it in my life. But it makes sense with everything else that’s been going on. My body, I think, is just like dude.

[01:21]

THERAPIST: It can be stress.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I’ve read about that like, you know, hives is one of those weird things where they can never tell exactly what caused it. Stress can be part of it, you know. But, you know, it just happens sometimes. But some things can kind of maybe trigger it, but they’re not sure. So I was like, oh; maybe I shouldn’t drink milk anymore or something. For hives, that doesn’t necessarily work, you know.

But once I have insurance, I do want to see a dermatologist though, because I think I do have a little bit of Rosacea or whatever. Like sometimes I feel a little warm and flushed. It wouldn’t hurt to just…

THERAPIST: You may want to see an allergist too.

CLIENT: Right, an allergist.

THERAPIST: Maybe you’re having an allergic reaction to something that you don’t know about.

CLIENT: I mean one thing that could happen is you develop one suddenly.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. It’s very common in allergies to be developed later.

[02:14]

CLIENT: Developed suddenly. And then today the pharmacist was saying the other thing is you could have been having reactions before, but they were mild, mild, mild, mild and you know what I mean. And you didn’t know that that’s what was happening. And now it’s just a full blown, you know. But there’s no way to know. What am I supposed to do? Cut out everything? You know.

[02:43]

THERAPIST: Try a different detergent.

CLIENT: I’m sorry? Detergent’s the first thing, yeah. I’m going to buy some kind of whatever completely…

THERAPIST: Sensitive skin; something like that.

CLIENT: Completely non-allergenic. Yeah. Something. Actually, I’m going to do that on my way home. Yeah, because my skin always feels a little itchy or something. I tend to have that kind of thing. Anyway.

So yeah, Vivian; so the deal is that the job there would be an Adjunct job. She said that’s what most of us are here. And she said there’s like one full professor position opening up that…you can apply for that too if you want. She’s like, in your letter, you don’t have to mention any of that. So I guess I’ll do it the way I’m doing it; like I’m thrilled to be considered to be part of the faculty or whatever. She’s like you might want to apply to that; she’s like although I’m not sure…that doesn’t sound like it’s up your alley. It’s a journalism and communications professorship and I bet that’s not me. Yeah.

So she’s like so the difference would be they wouldn’t pay for you to come out here and help you find a place to live and all that stuff. The thing, I asked her, I wrote back to her but she said you’ll be paid here instead of there.

THERAPIST: Here? In the States?

CLIENT: In Assyria, instead of here in the States. I don’t know what that means.

THERAPIST: I don’t either.

[04:21]

CLIENT: It’s the university. Is she trying to tell me that they’re paying in Assyrian money? I don’t know. I asked her just to clarify that. I doubt that’s the case. I mean it’s an American institution, so I don’t know how they would…maybe she just means…I don’t know; she’ll have to explain that. I don’t know what that means. But…

THERAPIST: So is being paid per course then typically.

CLIENT: That’s what it sounds like.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But she did say something like you could probably teach as many courses as you want.

THERAPIST: You’d do enough to support...

CLIENT: Yeah. [Pause.]

THERAPIST: Do you know how much they pay per course?

CLIENT: Well maybe she’ll answer that now. I just said I’m not sure what you mean by pays there instead of here. I was like I’m sorry to ask you so many questions; I’m just trying to figure out the logistics of how it would work and how I should be approaching it, you know.

THERAPIST: Why did you apologize?

CLIENT: No, not in a bad way. Because you know some people are very…they do ask too many questions. Like they’re a little too…I think it’s always polite to just be like, I’m just trying to clarify, you know, as I approach this, what am I getting. Whatever. I think it’s just polite.

[05:51]

THERAPIST: That’s different than apologizing though. I’m just trying to clarify vs. I’m sorry I’m asking too many questions.

CLIENT: No. I’m sorry I’m asking so many questions is the jokey way. You know. It’s like yeah. But whatever. I didn’t want to get in to it on my iPhone. I was like hey; sorry I’m asking you more questions, but…

THERAPIST: You dismiss it as not that important, but I think there is something hard for you to about actually feeling like you are entitled to those answers; that those are reasonable things to burden her with. You know what I mean?

CLIENT: No, not really. I mean maybe it’s more for me. I just don’t want to complicate something; I’m hoping it works out. So in a way I don’t want to know certain things that might not be beneficial to know. It’s not about her. It’s more like…

THERAPIST: But that’s just as worrisome, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t think that’s…

THERAPIST: You don’t want to find something out that would make you not want to go?

CLIENT: Of course I’m going to find out. I mean I’m not stupid. I’m going to find out. But well…but also…honestly, it is an etiquette thing. I’m also not a big fan of e-mails that just keep going back and forth with like question after question. I don’t know why. I’ve never…if she was here, or whatever, I would just call her if the time difference wasn’t so weird or whatever. But you know what I mean? I just feel like it’s just like… “And what about this?” “And what about that?” “Oh, I’m sorry and…?” “Oh, I forgot to ask you, what about this?” It’s like…

[07:25]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you’re nagging her then?

CLIENT: I don’t think it’s nagging; just in general. I find that back and forth to be annoying, whether I’m doing it or someone else is doing it to me.

THERAPIST: Annoying how?

CLIENT: I don’t know. It just is. I don’t know. It’s like my mom. I don’t know. It’s like alright. Calm down. You know.

THERAPIST: Too many questions.

CLIENT: Yeah. But anyway so, I don’t know. So yeah, it’s basically it’s what I thought it was. Which is still good. That’s fine. I don’t have a problem with that.

[08:09]

THERAPIST: You’re just missing not being important.

CLIENT: What being important?

THERAPIST: Your mom and her 20 questions.

CLIENT: Oh. Sorry. I’m just out of it man. I have hives. Yeah, that shit’s annoying. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think you to go another extreme to not be like her.

CLIENT: No, I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think that’s true. I think in this case it’s just, it seems like that, but it’s not. I mean I’m clear with people when I need to know something; I need to know it.

In this case, yeah, I just…lately things aren’t working out. I would like one thing to just kind of work out. So I think that’s understandable. I mean of course I’m going to find out whatever I need to find out. But it would be nice if it’s just something just kind of works out, you know. Just I’m tired and stressed and frustrated.

I think it’s the opposite. I think in general I’m very good at…that’s the point. I try to find out things up front. Be clear. That way I don’t have to, “What about this? What about that?” I just find shit out and then move on. But in the past I used to be more that way for sure, right. Like that’s why it took me so long to deal with my student loans, right. Such an easy thing. I didn’t want the back and forth and finding things out and feeling either bad or upset about, you know. But I don’t feel that anymore. It’s really not a big deal.

[09:51]

THERAPIST: That’s what I was picking up on is, is there something like that coming back around this that leads you to want to know is there something hard about learning?

CLIENT: No, it’s not. I would just like it to work out and not be so…

THERAPIST: But that’s the same thing, right.

CLIENT: Not really.

THERAPIST: Wanting it to work out is kind of like you don’t want to know that it’s not going to work out.

CLIENT: No, I mean I’m finding things out. It’s not like I’m avoiding finding things out. I just, yeah; so far it sounds like it’s a pretty uncomplicated situation. And I’m just hoping it just stays that way. That’s all. [Pause.]

This is crazy. I mean. [Pause.] I don’t want to like over dramatize it. People get hives all the time, I guess. I’ve never gotten hives, but people do. But they’re clearly, to me, I definitely think of it as your body’s trying to tell you something. Because if it’s something they can’t pinpoint; if it’s not I have the flu, so I’ve got a rash, or you know; that’s your body just being off kilter because your mind is just…your brain is just, I don’t know; the wrong kind of, what’s it called? The histamines are just being released from all the stress.

[11:32]

THERAPIST: It seems stress related.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I’m not sure. I mean, you know. And I don’t think it’s all about money. I’m starting to realize it’s not. I think a lot of this is also like, what’s that thing called, Dark Knight of the Soul? What’s the phrase? You know what I’m talking about.

THERAPIST: I do?

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s a very common…I don’t know. Whatever. It’s that period of time when like really you go to this crossroad place in your life. It’s kind of like rock bottom. But not like an attic’s type. It’s like a rock bottom of like really you’re pretty lucid and you’re trying to really confront things that are very very difficult to confront. I think that’s also what’s going on. I think my body is just now revolting in way and saying, “Dude.”

Even if there are money issues, that’s really no excuse to not get some writing done; it’s just not. There are so many people that suffer and have suffered real things – loss of limbs, you know wars, like actual serious illnesses, blindness, who the fuck knows, you know. And they…if they are talented, creative people, they find a way to get it done, you know. Why am I still not really? I feel closer, but I’m still not, you know.

[13:28]

So I think it’s all these things coming to a head. Like what am I doing with my life? Like even this life coaching thing; yeah, I do want to do it, but and I know that I’m letting this stuff kind of get me down right now, so I don’t want to over dramatize, be mellow dramatic about it. But even there, there’s something that I think about…I don’t know. I was just thinking about this. Like am I still not fully committing myself to being the artist that I am? Do you know what I mean? That’s always a question. Like yeah, life coach. Yeah, that does serve a purpose. It would be great. It’s a way to make money without dealing with a douche bag boss. It’s my business. It’s this and that. Maybe I’m worried that that’s only good if I’m really working on all cylinders as an artist.

But if I’m not doing that, then I start feeling, “What the fuck am I doing?” I’m doing this life coach thing but I haven’t written a page. Aren’t I doing that? I thought that I could do this. So, you know what I mean. I think I’ve run out of excuses, basically. So I think that’s part of this too. Between the house money situation and just…I just have a very stark realization that really; there’s nothing; no one is…and as bad as things are, and they’re really that bad – yeah, like right now I only have like $50 in the bank, but you know what, the flip side of that is I got stuff done with that money. My insurance got paid. A couple of things got paid. And in a couple more days I’ll get to my next check and it’s not great, but…

So, what’s going on? You know what I mean? I think there is something… I feel some kind of wall of…and it’s like the book I’m writing. Right. Did we talk about this?

[15:26]

THERAPIST: No. Not the title.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, my next book of poems. Do you know what that is?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Ice and Glass is from Moby Dick where Ishmael is describing the whale and he starts talking it’s body and whatever. And ice and glass is the gelatinous cover, kind of film that it has over its skin. So Ishmael says it’s like the skin of the skin. And it’s fucking brilliant to me. That’s like…so the book is kind of about, you know, what’s beneath the things that we say? What are the other layers of reality that we don’t really understand or we can’t…basically, the mysteriousness that is hard to explain in the world.

So this kind of feels like, not the skin of the skin, but like the rock bottom of the rock bottom. You know what I mean. You keep thinking you’re hitting rock bottom, but maybe this is really the…you know what I mean. Because I’m very lucid. I feel pretty good overall. So does that make sense? Maybe that’s why this reaction, like it’s like I literally don’t know what to do anymore. I try to out trick myself. I try, “Oh, I’ll write for two minutes a day.” It’s just not how…I don’t know. It’s just not happening.

[16:57]

I think what it is, is now it’s just will power. Like now it’s just do or die. It’s like you either have will power or you don’t. And if you don’t, then you’ve got to just let it go. You’ve got to just be like, you know what. I don’t know. Maybe I’ll write a book. But maybe I won’t. You know. [Pause.]

Now, I don’t know if that’s being too hard on myself, like…I don’t know. Because it’s been such a heavy month or two, I’m probably being a little too intense about it. But I’m not sure.

THERAPIST: Maybe both are true to some degree. Maybe you’re conflicting in yourself and it kind of feels darker because it’s been such a hard couple of months.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I was thinking, for example, once we do this reverse mortgage thing, right, come on; am I really going to sit down and then I’m going to get to work and…no. I’m probably not. Right. I’m just going to be happier that I have…I can breathe financially. But I don’t see that changing…right now I was working from home making a paycheck. I didn’t utilize that time to get writing done. So that’s what, I think, has hit a wall now. It’s like wait a second. This is…this is not…

Have I done some stuff? Yeah, I applied for a Connecticut Arts fellowship, you know Council of the Arts, whatever, the state. I applied for that. You know. I got…my friend just did a documentary about an Assyrian poet, very famous Assyrian poet around the Genocide. So I had a great idea to…I got a sneak copy from him. Instead of reviewing it, I want to write like kind of an essay stick from a living young poet and interacting with this dead poet through this documentary or whatever.

[19:17]

So I mean there’s stuff going on, obviously. There’s stuff going on. But it’s not…it’s…

THERAPIST: It’s not writing.

CLIENT: It’s not really writing. Yeah. And it’s never substantive writing. You know. So I don’t know if it means I need to somehow get one of those programs where it literally just shuts off all my Internet for like three hours. Like I have to like force myself, I think. I think a lot of people have this problem. But for other people, they’re not trying to write a novel. They’re in no…it’s annoying them in different ways. But I think it’s just…

THERAPIST: For a 9 – 5 job, you sort of have to get the job done and then it’s not as impactful to…

CLIENT: Yeah, but even that; that’s even better in a way because yeah, what do you have to get done? I have to do this report. But you take breaks. You check your Facebook. But when you’re trying to create art, you have to really go in to this deeper, almost like a meditative, especially…poetry is one thing. I can dip in to that and maybe in an hour I can bang out a good poem. And then I can go back to Facebook.

Pros you can’t. You can’t fucking do that. You need a prolonged engagement with that part of you and I’m weak. You know I think we all are. It’s very hard for people to shut everything off. I would need at least half hour, an hour, two hours, three hours. You know. So maybe I do need something. They have these things now you can opt in to and just shuts it off for whatever you pick. You can go back in, I’m sure, and turn it back on, but at least maybe that’ll train me. Because I think that’s a lot of what it is. I’m already distracted up here. So it’s just too easy. Facebook, read the news, get angry about the news, or get happy about the news. Just engage, you know. So.

[21:24]

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s…I’m just saying.

THERAPIST: It makes a lot of sense.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It makes a lot of sense.

CLIENT: That’s all, because that’s really all it is now. It’s will power. There’s no excuse. There’s absolutely no excuse. There never was an excuse. But now there really isn’t an excuse. [Pause.]

THERAPIST: The Internet can be a tremendous thing for different people.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s the thing. I don’t have an addictive personality, but I think between not being able to concentrate already, and then having unlimited access to Internet, that doesn’t help. And I think I have a bad combo. Like also like the woman thing; it’s just too easy to go online and look at profiles, write to people. It’s easy, depending on who you are, there’s something for you on the Internet to suck you in.

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: Do you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Of course.

CLIENT: So whether you’re an online shopper, whether you’re…whatever it is.

THERAPIST: Actually, I think that any time a person is spending more than an hour or a two – even an hour or two is a lot – on the Internet, it is a problem. It’s not being in your…

[22:56]

CLIENT: Well then most people are royally fucked.

THERAPIST: A lot of people are.

CLIENT: I mean the stats are…did you just read that new one? The stats are that the average American, and they did like a big study; like the average American between TV and Internet, 14 hours a day.

THERAPIST: It’s really destructive to people’s minds.

CLIENT: Oh no I’m sorry; they counted TV, Internet, iPhone, Droids, yeah. That’s fucked up.

THERAPIST: That’s not a lot of contact. It’s not being with your own mind.

CLIENT: Yeah, well people… we’ve forgotten Louis C. K (sp), do you like Louis C. K.? He’s fucking hilarious. He had that great little, in his interview with Conan, that’s what he was talking about. He’s like we just don’t know how to be alone because we’re scared to die, basically. It’s like we’ve forgotten what it’s like to just be alone and have kind of nothing to do, and, you know.

THERAPIST: Just being alone in your own thoughts.

CLIENT: That’s what it means. Yeah. Yeah, just like looking at the wall for a while, or looking out the window. I mean I don’t know; what did we used to do? It wasn’t even that long ago, right.

So yeah, I think I need to get back to that, you know because that was my world. That’s what I did. I just write books. I don’t know; I was just in my own world that had nothing to do with these outside weird sensory…[Pause.]

[24:42]

THERAPIST: [inaudible – 24:45]. What?

CLIENT: I just had a crazy thought. I mean this is getting more like Jungian or Freudian, but maybe it has some little thing to do with it…or a lot.

I think before I got the hives – I’m going to double check my e-mail – or the night I got the hives, God; it might have been. I got an e-mail from my second cousin, one of my second cousins in San Francisco who’s in his 20’s now. My first cousin’s kid on my dad’s side. Very nice kid. And I opened it up and what do I see? He says, I was at grandma’s – so he was at my aunt’s house…my dad’s older sister – and I saw this picture. We were looking at pictures; she showed me this picture. And he said your dad’s the one between his grandmother and mother. There’s a picture, then, of my dad’s family. And my dad’s like four. And I’ve never seen a photo of my dad before being a…before he was an adult. Never ever seen him. Never. No. Even my mom; it’s very rare. You know. Just one of those things, you know.

So it’s just hitting me now. I wonder if that did something.

THERAPIST: What was it like?

CLIENT: I didn’t feel particularly sad. I felt melancholy, but I also felt…

THERAPIST: You felt a lot of things.

CLIENT: Yeah, I kind of felt great. I was like wow. Like, you know.

THERAPIST: Could feel closer to him.

[26:34]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, as a little kid. And, of course, he’s like the coolest little kid, even at that age. He’s like hey, what’s up. He was like four. And it’s one of those, you know, like 1935…no, no, no. Must be like ‘38, ‘39, ‘40. So it was very black and white. No one’s smiling. You know it’s very, one of those things, you know. And his grandmother, my great grandmother…my grandmother; he’s between them. My uncle who’s left {– 27:06] now. But then my other uncle died, the one I knew really well. And then my two aunts and my grandfather. So it’s like a…I’ve never seen any of them at that age. Never, never.

So yeah, that was just amazing. Absolutely amazing.

So I wonder if on some level that did something? [Pause.] I showed it to my mom. It was cool. She was like blown away. And it also reinforced how much I need to go out there.

You know my aunt, really, I could sit with her for days. I’m sure the photos and things they have are…

[28:07]

THERAPIST: I wonder what the something is that did?

CLIENT: I think it is…I mean obviously it’s my dad, so it brought up a lot of something, you know. I’m not quite…I think if it had been some years ago, I would have literally just broken down or something like that. You know. It’s just kind of sad, but it just reminded me of how much I love him or that he had a whole life before me that I don’t know…I wish I knew more about.

But then also the whole family, right. There’s this uncle who’s still alive who I don’t know now if I’m ever going to be able to meet. Who I fucked up when I went there by not meeting him, out of my own naivety, you know. So there’s that. My other uncle has passed away, who I miss. And then these two aunts who are really fucking old. I mean really, once you get past 80, 85, you know.

So a lot different feelings. But the one that I can act on is that I need to see these people. At least the ones in San Francisco This is really…that’s another thing. Yes money is money, but that’s got to happen. I would feel really shitty if I didn’t get to see these people and spend quality time with them just a little bit more, you know.

And then my uncle…I’m trying to get a letter and send him some money, but I want to write him a letter in Assyrian. I just want him to know, like, that I felt so shitty because I didn’t see him when I was in the Middle East and that I was just naïve. I didn’t think clearly, you know. I just, you know; I don’t know. Because I think he’s kind of, not upset; it’s not like he’ll close the door in my face, but he’ll give me a hard time a little bit, you know, and I don’t blame him. To him it’s like, he didn’t see me there.

[30:17]

And then when I came to San Francisco he didn’t see me. You know, so.

THERAPIST: Do you know what stopped you? You keep saying naïve.

CLIENT: Honestly, when I went to the Middle East I just was…I wasn’t…I mean yeah, this is 2001. You know, I was in that place and it did not even cross my fucking mind that they would come to me. I don’t know why. It just did not. I don’t know if it’s because I’d never been to that part of the world. Obviously, I know it’s not that far once you’re there. But somehow I thought that’s kind of a big deal. Or I didn’t even think it consciously. On a subconscious level, I just thought these are two very different faraway places and I don’t know. I don’t know.

But really, once you get…I mean I was there for that day. That’s what, another…whatever it is. Let’s say another six hours. I mean I’m all the way there in that part of the world. I don’t know. That’s something I won’t be able to kind of forgive myself for. You know. Especially because now even if I could go now, forget it. I’m not going to be able to even enjoy. Those buildings were destroyed. Everything’s flattened. That history that was there that I would have wanted to…I can get nothing out of that now. So the least I can do is at least, in my own hands, just write to him and reach out to him.

[32:01]

THERAPIST: [inaudible – 32:05] time without your dad too. You know you say buildings destroyed now. I can’t go back. You can’t get time back. You can’t have him back. [inaudible – 32:15].

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, but I’ve kind of made more peace with…yeah, someone’s gone, they’re just gone. But when people are living and you can at least try to, that’s on you. You know what I mean.

THERAPIST: Lots of feelings you’re writing too are something of sort of facing what’s on you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I’ve always been saying that, but now I really; I feel like it’s very stark kind of like it’s just will power. You’ve got to suck it up. I don’t care whether you can concentrate or not. It’s becoming kind of just a broken record at this point. Because I don’t see any difference. When I had a girlfriend, everything was great. It’s not like I went home and I sat down and I wrote 10 chapters. I did nothing. Everything else is peripheral nonsense. It’s like you either have the will power to see through this thing, or you don’t. That’s all. That’s all there is to it.

So it’s either like I’m scared to do it. I’m scared that I’ll actually do it and it’ll be good. Or I’m scared that I’ll do it and nothing will come of it. Who knows? But again, that’s really neither here nor there. Obviously, I’m compelled to do it otherwise I wouldn’t be thinking about it this much. It’s not like a hobby or something like that. You know, obviously there’s some very intense drive to create, so.

[34:23]

THERAPIST: Well I might add that I think there is something more to it than will power even though I hear everything you’re saying. It’s really important; that kind of facing the music experience. There has been a phase recently. I know it’s not something you can hold on to as a long term thing where you started to write more. You’ve found places where you’ve written more where you come up with a story line, you come up with a rubber plan, you come up with a title of your book of poems.

There times, and over the course of this work, where you’ve…something’s lit up, even it hasn’t lasted. It still is something that feels different than how it is often. So I wonder if there’s something about something moving inside you that makes being alone feel like it’s a bearable place to be; alone with your writing. Like actually the thing when you are alone it’s quiet and calm enough that you can be creative. But I think alone, very quickly, goes back to not feeling that way, especially in the midst of something like this; like another external descending of an authority and you know, limitations and restrictions.

CLIENT: Like this one.

THERAPIST: So just the everything going on with money right now.

CLIENT: Oh right, right.

THERAPIST: I think like how could that now be pulling you back more to feeling just radically alone [inaudible – 35:57] or like an outsider?

CLIENT: Yeah, but I mean…

THERAPIST: I’m not saying it’s an excuse.

CLIENT: No, no. But I’m…I guess what I’m saying, though, is that in a way I should feel relieved. That’s kind of what feels different this time a little bit.

We have a house. What I was saying yesterday. Let’s say…I mean the reverse mortgage is going to happen. She’s qualified. It’s a very easy; I mean it’s just going to happen regardless of the amount they give us. If nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing else, bills are going to be paid. We’re going to have breathing room. Right. Forget about buying another place. Let’s say that didn’t happen. We’re going to have breathing room to be able to pay things off.

[36:37]

B.) Let’s say the reverse mortgage didn’t happen for whatever reason. Well, I can put the house on the market for $900K, $950K and see what happens. Someone might probably buy it. In other words, I’m not sure why…or I am maybe possibly sure why that’s not…it’s not comforting somehow that much. Whereas in the past it was. In the past, when, again, because I was stupid, right, something would just happen and I’d suddenly have a little bit of money. A friend would help me or some scholarship or my uncle. But nothing would happen beyond that. I don’t know what I’m saying, exactly.

Just that I’m…something in me is freaking out. I think that the money thing is one way or the other going to get resolved. I’m freaking out already at the…I’m pre…what’s the word?

THERAPIST: Pre-emptive.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Pre-emptive.

CLIENT: I’m pre-emptively freaking out at the fact that the money thing is one way or the other going to get resolved. And I’m still going to be watching Netflix and having these same struggles with creativity. That’s what I’m…and I think that’s maybe good. Because maybe you need…that’s what I’m trying to say; it’s the rock bottom of the rock bottom. Maybe you need that. Something in me is saying I don’t want to do that anymore. I just can’t. I can’t do that.

So in a way I think it’s all a healthy sign.

[38:28]

THERAPIST: Well one of the things…I actually think what we’re saying is different in that you’re getting to peel away the conscious layers of oh, money is the reason; to start to discover what is that at its fundamental basis. So even if things are going really well on the external, what’s happening inside you that it’s still hard to get going to commit yourself? I don’t know exactly, even still, what that means to sit there and write what happens inside your experience.

There’s a very very very early unconscious level in this I think. I mean you’re speaking to the conscious rational stuff, which is getting more and more rational. You get that it’s going to work out with money. You’re going to figure a way. You have all these ways. You’re problem solving now. Find your way through. It’s not going to be the end of the world. So what else is there? What’s the thing that is still unconsciously haunting you? You know like who’s [inaudible – 39:24]? What’s happening alone in your bed at night that it is terrifying to be alone for a long time? Does writing mean being alone? The Internet becomes a way of filling up being alone. Exactly what you’re saying.

CLIENT: Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: So what happens when you shut it off?

[39:49]

CLIENT: Right yeah. Because then you have to try to make real connections with people. Or a real connection with yourself.

THERAPIST: Like us here. What happens if we stop talking about money or about this, going to get a job, or this business plan? Then what happens when you don’t have the Internet in here? You know. What’s there? Will you be abandoned or left alone, will you be smothered? All early, early…I’m talking even infant level kinds of things. Anxieties and fears about what’s eating away another person that way…at the most important stage of their…start to get access to. [Pause.]

CLIENT: I mean I think maybe that’s what it is. I mean like...why do I hate – not hate – you know I avoid going to certain shows. I don’t like to hear about certain things. Why? Because it’s like a jealous; it’s like a…it just reminds me of feelings of like unfairness or why aren’t people noticing what I do? You know what I mean? Why aren’t people championing what I do? Why aren’t they whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever? And I become more and more aware of that. It’s not healthy. You know, that’s not healthy. I’m not able to go to a show and be like, hey cool man; this is really awesome. There’s always a part of me…

Part of that’s normal. The musical side or the writer’s side. Or if I go to…I can’t help it. I’m listening to the music and I’m kind of deconstructing it as a musician. But that’s very different from being bothered; that everyone else is really crazy about this music. So what? It’s like I take it personally, you know. That goes back to what you’re saying. It’s like this old like if you like them so much, that means you’re automatically neglecting me, which is a bizarre, irrational conclusion to draw. You know what I mean. People like a lot of bands, you know. On this particular night, they’re seeing this band. They love it, or whatever. You know what I mean.

[43:17]

But it becomes like very childish to me. I take it in a childish way.

THERAPIST: It’s not bizarre and irrational to be thinking how if you grew up with a mother who would comment on someone else’s son in abnormation and it was a way of knocking you down. That was built in to your relationship. It wasn’t just she would admire somebody you knew; fundamentally, you were admired too. It’s a comment on you. So of course you carry around inside you. If someone loves this band, it’s a comment on how much they don’t love you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. But also then, the second part of that is that it reinforces her voice. It’s like well you’re not good enough.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: They don’t like because it’s not that they don’t know you’re in music; even if they know you’re in music, they still like that band more. That’s what happens, you know.

So now then when you’re trying to write a novel, that’s pretty intense. You’re trying to write something serious where it takes consistent engagement on a particular…like a zone you have to be in right. So well if on some deep level, you’re already have the normal things that people have. Like will it be good? Will it get published? Whatever. That’s a lot already.

But then on top of that for like, eh, even if it does get published, right…like when my book came out, once I saw it, I was excited for a good day or whatever, and then, whatever. So there’s that. Then I’ll write it. Yeah, maybe it’ll get published. But people will like it, but you know, there are a slew of other writers that are definitely way…that they are way crazier about, or whatever. There’s some, you know…which is rational in the context of my mom, but really irrational. I mean that’s…that’s like saying, you know, I want money but there’s always going to be someone that has more money than you, less money than you.

[45:28]

So there are going to be people that are better writers, worse writers, or different writers; that different kinds of people with different kinds of taste. I mean that’s nonsense to start putting yourself in some kind of weird hierarchy of…that’s the last thing an artist gives a shit about. But if that’s your childhood and if you’re, you know, constantly being compared and this and that and put down.

THERAPIST: RJ, you’re very good at challenging cognitive distortion. Like you know how to speak about all these things rationally. But I don’t think they touch the feelings inside this that are with you. The self-loathing; the feeling that you’re not good enough. That it’s not going to be good enough when you write. That someone else really is going to be a lot better. It’s a very degraded set of feelings about yourself that I know you’re not…one level is not rational. These are the feelings that are giving you hives, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you have so much more to get to know about. [Pause.] Until tomorrow.

CLIENT: 2:20 tomorrow?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: 2:20. Okay. Thanks Claire. See you tomorrow.

END TRANSCRIPT